When you hate your friend's kids

[abba12]

I have a question for the hive. 

 

I have a friend, she is lovely, she is the wife of a guy I've known since we were pre-teens. She is an amazing, wonderful, caring person who brings me immense joy to be around.

 

And her two boys are uncontrollable, demanding, brats. 

 

Ok, well, the youngest is only just 2 so maybe he's just a toddler, but his 4 year old brother taints my view a little, not to mention my friend joking about how the younger one will probably be so much worse than the older.

 

The other day, my friend came for coffee without the kids because he husband took them out. It was lovely. We could speak for more than two minutes at a time. The children present (my 3 and another friends 2, all 6-and-under) went off to the playroom and played perfectly, with only one argument. It was soooo peaceful. 

 

When the boys are here, they hang off us, they demand things or attention every two minutes, they will not play nicely, they hit and take and break things. And she dismisses it all because they're boys and boys are just like that. Sigh. 

 

How do you continue a friendship with someone who's kids you can't stand? Eventually the kids will be old enough that it's not an issue, but right now, I hesitate to invite her over at times because I can't deal with the boys, and my children don't particularly enjoy their company either. 

[Catwoman]

Can you meet her for coffee outside of the house without the kids?

[PeachyDoodle]

I'll be honest: We have friends like that, and it has damaged our relationship because we just can't stand to be around their kid. We have been friends since we were children (actually, dh and I met because we both knew the husband). We love them; they are truly lovely people. But their son is the WORST. And they think he's an angel.

 

I don't really have advice. In our case, it did not improve as the kids got older. In fact, it has gotten worse. We try to occasionally plan a kid-free night out for the adults (we make sure our kids have plans before inviting so there's no "let's just all get together!"), and that's the only way we've been able to maintain any sort of friendship. 

[abba12]

Can you meet her for coffee outside of the house without the kids?

 

At this point no, her husband works and studies, so she doesn't get out without the kids very often and when she does she usually has things to do. She also wont go out in the evening because she will not leave her toddler to sleep without her, and her husband refuses to put said toddler to bed. It drives me batty but they very much have the 'daddy is babysitting' mindset, which I Do. Not. Get.

 

We're both philosophical homeschoolers so coffee while the kids are at school will likely never be an option, but maybe on the weekends sometime down the road.

[solascriptura]

I’m all ears. I have the same problem with my bff. She is such a sweetheart and her kids step all over her. Makes me sick to see her kids treat her like others in her life.

[maize]

I don't have suggestions to offer for the get together issue, but I have intense and needy kids. I really love this parenting book and wonder if your friend would like it?

 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27774752-self-reg

 

 

Try not to judge her parenting. Some kids are just MORE. I have one in particular who is whiny and needy and clingy and meltdown-y and bitey and hit-y and climb-all-over-me-y and...

[Epicurean]

Oh man, I wish I had advice for you. I'm in the same boat. And my friend has all boys, while we have girls, so she is all about, "That's just how boys are!" They scream, hit, kick, bite, etc. The oldest is nine, so while he doesn't usually do those things anymore, he is so clingy and twerpy. I know there are people out there who don't mind a nine year old hanging around interjecting his opinion into adult conversation or going on nonstop about Minecraft, but not me. I'm of the "Get out of here and go play!" set. Like your friend, they cosleep and dad only does the occasional babysitting.

 

To be fair, I sometimes wonder if I drive her crazy because we are so much more strict and are sort of detachment parents (vs attachment).

Edited November 19, 2017 by Epicurean

[Guest]

Well, but, even if her kids were not horrible brats, it’s really difficult to do mom-friend things with small kids, unless the hanging-with-the-mom is incidental to the kids’ activity. I remember one time when my youngest was 2, that kid could not stay in one place for a nano-second. I was trying to tell give a curriculum review to other moms at a meeting and it was pretty much the same as if I had been trying to give a speech while riding the Mad Tea Party ride at Disney World. He was like a really fast wind-up toy with no off button. So, when my kids were small, if I was hanging with a mom friend, it was while the kids were at Kindermusik or at a kids play gym or at a park or while swimming.

 

The only other option I know of is to restrict seeing her to coffee dates sans kids.

 

I hate to say I had to do this with one friend not because of her kids, but because of her husband. I did not like her husband, though I did not wish to say so, so we got together for chick flick movies or coffee at a café. It just “never worked out†to socialize at her house.

[Grover]

I have a couple of friends like this - during those intense parenting years we kept in touch via email or on the phone.  Once the kids were older evening get together's were more doable, so we do that.  I avoid getting my children together with theirs at all costs, however, because I value the adult friendship, just don't like their kids so much.

[LMD]

I'm at the stage where I will tell off other people's kids. I'm sick of it.

[Lady Marmalade]

I'll be honest: We have friends like that, and it has damaged our relationship because we just can't stand to be around their kid. We have been friends since we were children (actually, dh and I met because we both knew the husband). We love them; they are truly lovely people. But their son is the WORST. And they think he's an angel.

 

I don't really have advice. In our case, it did not improve as the kids got older. In fact, it has gotten worse. We try to occasionally plan a kid-free night out for the adults (we make sure our kids have plans before inviting so there's no "let's just all get together!"), and that's the only way we've been able to maintain any sort of friendship. 

 

This.  It's hard, and we had to let a relationship completely go because of one child.  

 

We were PG together with our first, my DD was five months older than their DS, and all was great for a few years.  Then he got more and more spoiled and demanding and just completely controlled their household.  When we had DS he got 1000% worse.  It was so awful- we'd get together and he wouldn't want another little boy to play with his toys, and the parents sided with him!  A house full of every fun boy toy you could imagine and my DS was playing with the three things I had in the diaper bag for in the car.    :glare:

 

The very last time we got together with them, it was Thanksgiving.  We all prepared a simple meal together and went to sit and enjoy it when suddenly Golden Child announces that he doesn't want to have Thanksgiving at that table with company.  So, literally, their family sort of apologized and then excused themselves to eat in their kitchen.  We ate separately and we left shortly after that.  On the drive home I told DH I was not going to subject my children to that boy anymore and he agreed.  We haven't seen them since and cut off contact with the parents. 

 

I do wonder how things in that family is now that their precious little one is almost 17- I wonder if he's still ruling the roost or if he's become a problem child.  But I don't wonder enough to reach out and make contact.  No thank you. 

[Jyhwkmama]

 

 

The very last time we got together with them, it was Thanksgiving.  We all prepared a simple meal together and went to sit and enjoy it when suddenly Golden Child announces that he doesn't want to have Thanksgiving at that table with company.  So, literally, their family sort of apologized and then excused themselves to eat in their kitchen.  We ate separately and we left shortly after that.  On the drive home I told DH I was not going to subject my children to that boy anymore and he agreed.  We haven't seen them since and cut off contact with the parents. 

 

 

 

 Wow!

[brett_ashley]

Iï¸ have this situation and what dramatically improved Iï¸t was babysitting the kids Iï¸ hated. Turned out, they were fine as long as their mom wasn’t there, and after a few times they learned the way our house worked, and Iï¸ felt comfortable giving them instructions even when she was there.

[displace]

Just to anyone in general-

I'd also gently bring up that some kids are different. A lot of things may not be visible to the outside observer. There are lots of medical disorders and conditions that are unable to be diagnosed at very young ages, which an outsider may be quick to blame on the children or parenting. But, it could be there's a problem there. An outside observer may just see chaos and screaming or whatever. But the child could have sensory problems, social disorders, hyperactivity, or lots of other concerns.

 

For the OP- Maybe gently bring up their behavior and ask what she's done, if she's worried, etc. Maybe bring up they tend to fight a lot and ask how she prevents that, (or whatever behavior). Maybe her parenting is sexist and lacking. Maybe she believes in hands off, let the kids solve their own problems, and only intervene in an emergency. Or maybe her children are like that because there's something wrong. If it's too much to hang around the family, then don't. Keep up by text, or chat. A lot of parents who have children that are high needs are exhausted and may not get out much.

Edited November 19, 2017 by displace

[Murphy101]

This drives me bonkers.

 

I know first hand that sometimes kids are just difficult and the parents are doing their best even if it doesn't look like it from the outside.

 

But if someone is going to have a good friendship, it's on the parents to explain their problems enough so that people can help cope instead of getting fed up and moving on to friendships that are more reciprocal.

 

And if their kid is being hateful, destroying things, ruining every get together and the parents not only do nothing to change that, but seem to actively make it worse or acceptable? I'm sorry if they are going through something I don't know about, but what I do know is that it is not okay behavior and I'm not going to teach my children they have to endure being treated that way.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Murphy101

[catz]

I would just meet or not meet under conditions you find acceptable. Park meet ups are good or meet for coffee when you can to chat.

 

I will say I had a challenging boy in preschool. If you have 3 reasonably compliant girls you may just be having a very different parenting experience than her. My daughter was much easier at those ages. And it seemed like a trend among our friends. The only thing wrong with the challenging boys we knew during the early years is most of them are GT. I wouldn’t suggest testing or diagnosis at ages 2 and 4 as an outsider without some very extreme behavior unless you had some sort of special training.

[LMD]

There's a difference between difficult behaviour where the parent is trying, and difficult behaviour that the parent literally shrugs off as a 'phase'. I don't believe (in my case) it's neuro diverse thing, because they do stop immediately after an extremely mild & kind reminder from me!

 

Eta- one of mine was the nightmare child. It was hard, so hard, but calm coffee catch ups were impossible. I would expect close supervision of a difficult 2 & 4 year old, and I'd probably encourage it by modelling it with my own young children.

Edited November 19, 2017 by LMD

[JFSinIL]

When I was expecting twin boys, some members of the local Mother of Multiples club I attended who had boys themselves were all "You poor dear, boys are so difficult" etc.  A grown man, one of a twin set (do not know if identical or fraternal or even if it mattered) was invited to speak on what it had been like growing up as a twin and he mostly talked about how much he and his brother fought - really, fists flying fighting - all the time.  He told us moms expecting or with little boys that we were "in for it".

 

Some people really expect boys to be like that.  Mine were not*, and none of the other moms with boys, twin or otherwise, that I know of dealt with obnoxious fighting brats, either.  But I suspect if you expect boys to be hellions, and treat them as such, you might get just that (talking about neurotypical kids here, not special needs).  But even a special needs kid, or any kid, being a handful, the parent needs to step in.  I almost wonder if you friend is just taking a break from parenting when she visits, letting her two rampage around your kids since "boys will be boys".

 

 

*okay, one has autism so not likely to be a fighting little bugger with his brother anyway, they mostly ignored each other. Brother more an intellectual dog-loving bookworm, kinda a Thoreau if only we had had a pond in the backyard for him ;-)

 

My most physical kid turned out to be the last one, my little girl who wanted to get a black belt (and did) before high school.  When she is home from college (junior now) she and her buddies of both genders like to go out at night to play "man on woodchips" at the local playground - it is like pretending the ground is hot lava to be avoided combined with blind man's bluff/hide and seek.  . I half expect her to take up parkour next.   

Edited November 19, 2017 by JFSinIL

[Soror]

Sometimes the nicest women have the meanest kids because they don't discipline their kids AT ALL. They do whatever they want and make themselves slaves to their children. I used to think if you just modeled niceness your kid would be nice, no, you have to discipline too. 

 

I'm not talking about kids with issues but parents who are oblivious or don't care. I remember one kid at a camp-out was pushing his toddler sister around right in front of the fire, his parents did nothing, I had to intervene. A really good friend whose kid would say really mean things to my daughter but was really smart and sweet as pie around adults. Dh has a boy (or two) in his Troop like that now, love his Dad, all around great guy but his kid is a straight up bully and huge too, he is a constant problem, he is mean to other kids, lazy, and damages property. Half of their discipline is for this kid, even with the Dad around.

[HS Mom in NC]

I have a close friend like that.  She has 2 younger kids my kids and I can't stand.  She has raised them to be very hyper-sensitive.  She says her family culture doesn't allow any sort of even affectionate teasing, ribbing, or sarcasm which is culturally normal here.  She has no problem with her older preschool/early elementary school aged kids (boy and girl) bursting into tears over everything that doesn't go their way and slights real or imagined.  Her husband tells her he isn't on board with this and he thinks things should change because they're struggling in peer relationships but she won't listen. 

The mom and I get together without our kids, which means not every often when they're younger.   If that's not the stage of life you're in then maybe develop friendships with other people whose kids can handle social situations better.

When I think of all the people I know parenting boys well it's insulting and demeaning to associate boy energy with bad behavior and make excuses.  Boys might be generally different than girls in general, but that doesn't mean it's OK when they're badly behaved.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The parents that I know with difficult kids are constantly working to intervene or contain their behaviors in some way. They are apologizing even to good friends (at least at first) and are sharing their frustration and exhaustion. I had other parents who thought that I intervened too much but once they saw a complete Aspie meltdown or two, they changed their minds.

 

I did know one Mom who gave up but that was after I saw her work with her child for years and she confided that coming to my house was a respite for her. So I tried to provide that even though it was exhausting to me to keep her son from literally diving head first off the top of the slide.

 

So what would concern me about this situation is the lack of intervention.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Seasider]

When I think of all the people I know parenting boys well it's insulting and demeaning to associate boy energy with bad behavior and make excuses. Boys might be generally different than girls in general, but that doesn't mean it's OK when they're badly behaved.

Amen

[Farrar]

It's tricky in a situation like that to maintain a friendship, but I can't believe that anyone would judge a 2 yo for being needy. I mean, all 2 yos are needy. Most 2 yos hang off their parents and interrupt. Yeah, I've been around parents who don't intervene enough, and the "boys will be boys" thing is obnoxious and sexist. But 4 yos will be 4 yos. And sometimes they're still whiny and needy too, even with good parenting and the "right" amount of intervention, which is something that's really hard to judge at a few playdates.

[Seasider]

Hate is a strong word and I couldn't say that about any of my friends' children. However, there have been times when I've wanted to shake a particular friend by the shoulders and say, "Can't you see how your own child is manipulating you?!! It's so obvious!"

 

I have experienced kids who came over and were mean to my kids. They didn't get invited back. Also, especially when my own were still pretty young, I did limit play dates with kids who were really off the charts in terms of disobedience, disrespect, dishonesty, because I didn't want my own kids picking up those traits. Most often that meant supervised play dates with frequently interrupted adult conversation. Plus maybe a debrief with my kids on the ride home.

 

Generally speaking, I enjoy kids-free get togethers nowadays. I feel like we are freer to speak openly about more things than when "little pitchers" were around to listen in.

[Twolittleboys]

I don't really hate many people (if any), definitely not my friends' kids. I guess if they were mean, hurtful, etc. but it would have to be quite extreme. Not liking them much/not wanting to have them over is something else.

 

Also, I do wonder whether the fact that you have all girls plays a role. I know someone above said that being boys is no excuse and obviously it is not for really bad behaviour. Still, children have different temperaments and if you are more used to one type it may be difficult to account for that. I used to take care of two little girls and they were pretty much angels. When we had neighbor boys or cousins etc over I couldn't believe how wild, destructive etc. they were. Well, now I have two boys of my own and I would not call them "angels".

 

I don't think your friend is right that "boys will be boys" and that makes anything okay but honestly, I would not expect most two year olds (or any kids under 8 or so) to go off and play peacefully in a play room for more than a short time. I do have one kid who would do it (so it isn't just that my kids don't act good so I think it is normal) but based on doing stuff with friends and their kids when they were younger there were always issues and many kids come every 5 minutes or so to ask for something, complain, etc.

 

Still, if you don't like having them over there is no need to do so. However, it may have a negative impact on your friendship. I think it is okay to ask your friend to do stuff without the kids sometimes but I would probably have my feelings hurt if you had your kids and other kids there but made it clear that mine are not welcome (even if they were wilder/more annoying than average).

[Bluegoat]

For now I'd just try and stay connected but not see the kids too much.

 

Two and four is still pretty small - they might well grow out of their annoying behaviours in a few years, and the mom will be better able to get away.

 

 

[catz]

When I think of all the people I know parenting boys well it's insulting and demeaning to associate boy energy with bad behavior and make excuses.  Boys might be generally different than girls in general, but that doesn't mean it's OK when they're badly behaved.

 

I do not disagree with this at all. The OP's situation isn't completely clear to me.  But as the parent of a very high energy boy I did have a couple friends with 1 or 2 extremely in the box compliant children that were non tolerant of any energy or volume and were quick to label and judge other very young children's behavior.   There is a reason kids don't start school until ages 5-6+.

 

If this parent is tolerating destructive and/or violent behavior without correction, I agree that is a problem.  And I loathe the expression boys will be boys.  When my kids were young, I definitely preferred outdoors get togethers.   I even think it's fine to decide someone else's kid causes you too much stress to get together.  I just think it is possible for people with similarly aged kids to be having a very different experience parenting their own kids.  They're not all built the same.  My daughter was quite out of the box in other ways at this age as well.

 

ETA - and to be clear, the reason I say this is I actually think it's fairly unusual to send 5 kids under age 6 off to play and just have them do that for an extended period of time.  My kids rarely did that and wanted to be near.  The OP's kids do sound unusually well behaved for those ages.

Edited November 19, 2017 by WoolySocks

[Rosika]

I've been on both sides of this. 

 

I had four boys in six years. Three were "easy" to have park days and play dates with. One was called the Tasmanian Devil by one mom (I think the "Tasmanian" was added later, for the benefit of my ears) and jokingly called "Good God" by his brothers because another mom used to always mutter that whenever my son got out of the car, or did anything she perceived to be unruly (and she disliked him so much that she thought everything he did was unruly.) It was very difficult. Some moms used to invite three of the boys to parties, and specifically leave my "not easy" son out. He's #3 so it was never as easy as explaining that he was too young (since his younger brother was always included in the invitation.)

 

I had many friends who had daughters only, or older daughters with younger boys. Stereotypes being what they are, there is something to be said for the differences many people experience in parenting girls v. boys. And as pointed out in other posts, some of this might be due to social or family expectations of those differences. These expectations then affect how one parents, and again how one sees other people parenting. Maybe her expectations would change if her boys had a sister in the mix. Maybe the OP's expectations would change if she had a son in the mix. Who knows.

 

My #3 grew up and will soon graduate high school. He's still a handful. Somehow he has an attitude of entitlement, but he's now willing to work to earn the things he feels he deserves (newer car, expensive phone). He still comes to park day, but now instead of sitting in on the moms conversations he helps keep the younger kids away from the moms - he swings them, chases them, plays soccer with them. (But okay, once the little kids are going he still does try to sit down and chat with the moms. I gave up, and they don't care now that he's giving us a chunk of kid-free time by playing with the kids LOL) He's still cocky/overly sure of himself but it's given him an "in" in local politics, which is quickly becoming a passion of his. 

 

The "Good God" mom had to break contact with us for many years because of this son. She left our park group and refused to join field trips if we had signed up. She had one well-behaved, sweet girl the same age as this son. When that girl turned 12, this mom adopted a newborn. This newborn grew into the female version of my son. She called me up, apologized, and said karma was indeed a bitch! Her older daughter still hates my son, but the mom and I have regained our friendship. My son is one of two babysitters she can trust with her youngest daughter, and the one her daughter prefers. I never would have guessed this could happen so many years ago. 

 

I have another friend who is very dear to me. We had been friends for a few years when she had twins (kids #4 and 5) the same year I had my daughter (#5). My sweet, naive daughter, the one I deserved after years of managing her one brother. Her older three were/are easy going, mellow kids. Her twins set her world afire. Also, literal fire. They started two fires before they turned 5, and they're the reason she started to home school. For 3-4 years we had to meet without her kids. For another 3-4 years I could do limited park days with them. I had to really mentally prep myself and take the whole next day off from school. LOL But I needed her, and more importantly she needed US. My daughter liked the twins, but hated when they came to park day. 

 

Sometimes at park day my friend just needed a break. Like, she was breaking mentally and the park was her main respite. She'd manage their behavior as best she could but she had to let some things go (for her own sanity) and to let some things wait (out of the public's eyes). The latter is because she saw what happened to my son when he was disciplined in public (even if pulled to the side.) The kids picked up on it and would then instigate more trouble, which he was always too weak and impulsive to resist obliging. Also, my kid would sit and take the discipline even in public. Her twins would have escalated the situation for the audience. I don't know if this any of this is true for your friend, just throwing it out there. 

 

If you have to take a break from your friend, do it. But don't give up on the friendship. Put it on pause. Put it on a shelf, and dust it off every chance you get to meet without kids - few and far between as that might be. Kids change - some for the better, some for the worse - but I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Mentally commit to having her over once per quarter with the kids. That's reasonable and doable, and hopefully you'll have added chances to meet Moms Only in between those quarterly visits. 

 

I like the suggestion about babysitting her kids. I bet if you took the older one for a bit, a few times, and taught him what you expect in  your house, he'd be better. He'd still push when his mom was there, but in his eyes you'd have a new place of semi-authority (and especially if you're meeting in your home.)  That's asking a lot of you, though. I don't know that I could do it, even if I really wanted to. I hope you guys figure this out!

[Ausmumof3]

Yes. Other than with my last kid I would never have expected to be able to sit and enjoy a coffee without some parenting required of under 4 year olds. That's not a normal reasonable expectation. For kids in the same family on their home ground set up for them where they know the rules some supervised play might be appropriate but it's normal for intervention to be needed between kids that age who get together sporadically.

 

And there is definitely a difference between a family with all boys. (Although I will say my girl gives the boys a run for their money but that's just her).

 

However the thing that stands out is that they hit and break things and MUM DOESNT DEAL WITH IT.

 

whatever your parenting strategy if your kid hits another kid you need to be employing that strategy. Not ignoring the behaviour. And if your kid breaks something of someone else's you need to repair/ replace. That's basic politeness/ human decency. If that's not happening then your friend really isn't respecting you at all. Now it might be that she's totally overwhelmed by life or something but it's hard to see that

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh, I just remembered one family with two boys who had a different family culture than ours.  The two boys (8 and 10 if I remember correctly) used to pummel each other.  I ended up asking if they could limit the wrestling for their house and not mine.  I actually wasn't so worried about their behavior - I figured that they had lasted this long with all their teeth and bones intact - but they would wrestle in our small rooms and I was worried for our furniture and belongings.  We just did not have the money to replace items if broken and neither did they.  They said "sure".  They might have thought that I was overly cautious but friends will make adjustments for each other, and it really was no big deal. 

[Lecka]

My oldest couldn't be trusted to play in another room when he was in pre-school. I had a couple of times when I went to someone's house where I was expected to sit in the living room while kids went to a bedroom to play. I couldn't do it knowing my son would get in trouble. I declined those invites but saw people at the park and McDonald's play place.

[Pen]

I've had very negative experiences follow situations dismissed by a mom (or also a teacher) as boys will be boys: violent attack behaviors when the boys got a little older.

 

With this to guide me, if a person I knew dismissed her sons' behavior as "boys will be boys," I would stop in-person contact before I or more likely due to relative size and strength, one of my children, were hurt by the boys.  

 

If the friendship with the parent were really close maybe something could be discussed that would help.  Maybe emails or phone calls and occasional kid-free  get-togethers (maybe other babysitters are possible) could preserve the friendship with the parent(s) to some degree.

 

In any case, IMO, boys who are hitting and breaking things and need attention every two minutes need a level of parental lifeguarding that won't be possible while trying to socialize any more than a pool lifeguard can socialize while on the job.

[Pen]

Without the mom actively dealing with it and just being dismissive about it, what will make the boys change and grow up to be the sort of boys you want your girls around as preteens and teens? Hitting and breaking things needs to be actively solved when they are little and still somewhat tractable, because ime nothing generally changes so that at age 10 and 12 or 14 and 16 it  will have stopped.

 

As for many here, it is the mom's failure to deal with it and dismissive attitude that I find the most disturbing.

[Bluegoat]

Without the mom actively dealing with it and just being dismissive about it, what will make the boys change and grow up to be the sort of boys you want your girls around as preteens and teens? Hitting and breaking things needs to be actively solved when they are little and still somewhat tractable, because ime nothing generally changes so that at age 10 and 12 or 14 and 16 it  will have stopped.

 

As for many here, it is the mom's failure to deal with it and dismissive attitude that I find the most disturbing.

 

I think it depends a bit.  Mom might be dealing with it in other ways.

 

But also - some kids just grow out of certain things, because their self-control or ability to perceive situations improves. Or sometimes, because other kids start to object to what they do.

[Ausmumof3]

Oh sure. Hitting and breaking are not polite, pro social behaviours, and parents need to be active in limiting them, especially at other people's houses.

 

I think it's quite normal for kids under 6 to need pretty direct supervision, especially the very boisterous ones, and maybe the hitting and breaking is an indication that the kids aren't ready to play without that supervision yet. In which case, that's at odds with the desire for all the visiting guests to play elsewhere nicely.

 

Personally, I'd raise this with a good friend. "I love you, and the kids, but it gets way too hectic during playdates, and I don't feel great about the hitting and breaking stuff. What can we do to make it better ?"

Yes I definitely think the expectation that kids that age will play unsupervised contributes to the problem.

 

I find this can unfortunately be common in very obedience focused groups.

[freesia]

For the two year old who was biting my baby--I got together with his mom alone for a few months.

 

For the special needs kid who kicked and screamed at my ds--I figured out exactly how long play dates went well and limited them.

 

For wild kids with no boundaries and little parental supervision--outside play dates

 

For the kid who I really didn't like and thought was an entitled arrogant jerk--I monitored and watched my kids and hoped they'd figure it out--mostly they did, but after so much pain I think I should have cut the friendship off when I first had reservations. Yeah, that was a big mistake. Big one

 

OP--Its not always easy to know what to do. 2 and 4 are super young and time will pass really, really quickly. I know it seems slow right now. A lot of pre-school kids arr rough around the edges and their parents are still figuring things out. A PP had a really nice way to handle it--explain your problem with the breaking and hitting and ask if you can figure out a solution together.

 

But-yeah--parents with two boys live in a different universe than ones with two girls. I'm not a boys will be boys person, but the gross motor expression that comes from testosterone surges and slower to develop verbal skills is just completely different. The noise level difference is huge.

[Mom22ns]

I actually had a friendship that I found difficult to maintain because the other mom's child was too perfect. She was convinced her dd's perfection was all her doing and that everyone else's kids were horrible because their parents were doing such a lousy job of parenting. My oldest was autistic and he was HARD. She always made me feel like such a bad mom, but when kids weren't around we were fine. Things did improve dramatically when she had a son about 7 years later. She suddenly realized that all kids weren't quiet and patient and couldn't be forced into that mold. Some kids are loud and clingy, rough and wild, and most of them are boys. 

 

If you can't enjoy time with your friend with kids, look for what time you can with your friend without kids or in locations where rowdy boys can't hurt your dds' things. Recognize you have no idea how difficult her life is or just what she is doing to try to work with the kids and their behavior when you aren't around. Give her grace when you can and keep yourself out of situations where you know her kids will exceed the limits of your grace, if possible. 

 

The friendship will suffer, but odds are, her kids will improve. My sister's kids were undisciplined terrors. I thought they would be nightmares forever. They grew up. They are wonderful adults and I'm very proud to know them and glad that they never learned how much I hated being around them when they were little  :lol: .

[wendyroo]

Mom ... could be unsure as to how to handle the expectation that the boys will play nicely without supervision. 

 

This is what I struggle with.  My kids NEED constant supervision, so it is very awkward when we go to someone's house and the mom expects that I will sit with her and drink coffee while the kids all play in another room.  I am faced with four bad choices: 1) Leave my kids unsupervised, which leads to violence and destruction, 2) Supervise the play room while the other mom(s) drink coffee elsewhere, which makes me appear anti-social and leaves me as the sole adult in charge of the goings on in someone else's playroom, 3) Try to relocate the mom gathering to the playroom, which annoys the other mom(s) because they want to talk without interruptions, or 4) Just never go to other people's houses...which is what we end up doing, but it is very isolating and the kids don't have many opportunities to strengthen their social skills.

 

We even have this issue at park dates, because other moms want to tell me all about riveting topics like their kitchen renovations or their trip to the outlet mall, but I have to run off every couple sentences to remind my preschooler to keep his hands to himself or rescue my toddler before she hurls herself off a platform.  Trust me, I would rather be able to engage in a conversation, I would love to have "easy", calm, patient, compliant children who are content to play safely without constantly endangering themselves and others...but that is not my reality. 

 

Wendy

[Twolittleboys]

I've had very negative experiences follow situations dismissed by a mom (or also a teacher) as boys will be boys: violent attack behaviors when the boys got a little older.

 

With this to guide me, if a person I knew dismissed her sons' behavior as "boys will be boys," I would stop in-person contact before I or more likely due to relative size and strength, one of my children, were hurt by the boys.  

 

If the friendship with the parent were really close maybe something could be discussed that would help.  Maybe emails or phone calls and occasional kid-free  get-togethers (maybe other babysitters are possible) could preserve the friendship with the parent(s) to some degree.

 

In any case, IMO, boys who are hitting and breaking things and need attention every two minutes need a level of parental lifeguarding that won't be possible while trying to socialize any more than a pool lifeguard can socialize while on the job.

 

I guess it depends on what the actual situation is. I have one child who does tend to break things quite a lot. But he isn't really aggressive, just unlucky / clumsy (and I am being quite objective here). When he was little I saw him literally just pick up a wooden train and it came apart in his hands. There is a huge difference between a kid running and falling with something in his/her hand that breaks from one smashing something on purpose. 

 

I do agree that "boys will be boys" is a bad excuse for horrible behaviour. But if it was a situation with several very polite, compliant children and mine were much louder/wilder I can see saying something to that effect. After all you have to say something... Obviously I don't know the OP's situation so it is difficult to know how bad the kids really are acting.

[eternalsummer]

My boys are more rambunctious than my girls.  They don't break things on purpose, necessarily, and if they were at someone else's house breaking their things we'd redirect or leave, but they do more running and jumping and wrestling and zombie apocalypse war games and etc.  I do like to let the kids self-regulate largely, because I find it works better for them (for ours, anyway) than my regulating all of their interactions, but of course a 4 and 2 year old will require a lot of regulating one way or another, at least in environment management.  Living with them, or visiting them, is rarely peaceful.  They argue and are loud and boisterous and sort of bound about.  If someone expressed dismay, though, I'd temper their enthusiasm to the extent possible (or leave).

 

We don't get out much :)  When we do get out, I prefer wide open areas or people who also have boys, or at least have fenced backyards.  

 

I have a SIL who doesn't like our boys and says to her daughter (her only child) in the boys' hearing, "oh, aren't you glad you never had a brother?" and the like.  Every Time She Visits Our House.  It makes me nuts nuts.  Generally what they are doing is running about pretending to shoot each other with stuffed animals or something.  Her daughter, who is a nice kid, isn't exactly a saint - but she is quiet about it (in, imo, more typical girl fashion - passively aggressive instead of aggressively aggressive).  I don't know that I prefer quiet unkindness, or underhanded unkindness, to loud unkindness, and I don't particularly prefer quiet friendliness to loud friendliness.

 

 

[abba12]

Well, this went from positive to negative.

 

I'm glad to know that children playing independently is apparently abnormal. Apparently my three kids, ALL of my other mother friends aside from this one, not to mention mine and my husbands younger siblings and all of their friends (we were older-enough to be teens when there were still toddlers at home), plus the kids of friends we had while childless who we observed many times, were all exceptionally abnormal, because I can't imagine a playdate which consists of constant active supervision, and it's definitely not what occurs in any of my social groups. I understand some kids are not neurotypical, that's different and I have endless empathy for those families, I volunteered with a special needs playgroup for awhile as a teen as well as helping a family who adopted and fostered autistic and downs children. I do know the difference. I also understand some kids are particularly difficult no matter what a parent does and when a parent acknowledges that it's a different thing.

 

But in this instance it's definitely a combo of gender issues, the mother being unable to really control a male child, plus an attachment parenting philosophy gone rather extreme to a child-ruling-the-home philosophy, plus a mother not knowing how to instill discipline and being overwhelmed and not sure what to do. I have sympathy for her, she asks my advice, I help and model things where I can, she specifically asks me how I do x and y or how I taught a and b, but then can't follow through herself, she wont say no to them, and then she tries to use discipline but 'timeout' consists of her sitting beside her child for the entire duration, which can easily end up 10 minutes long if the child is refusing to cooperate, and she tries the one, two, three thing but she says it quickly, onetwothree, then does nothing at all afterwards, almost like turning onetwothree into a warning word rather than a meaningful tool. She asks them to clean up, and then does all the cleaning up herself while cheerfully asking them 20 times to join in, it's fostering a situation of them walking all over her, and it's heartbreaking to see. 

 

But, it seems many of you expect to spend the entirety of visits chasing kids and offering constant active supervision, so, I guess there's a big cultural difference here between the social circles I'm familiar with and the ones represented here. 

[abba12]

Also, I'm sure most of you are mature enough to realise I was using a common phrasing of the word hate, to emphasise complete frustration, rather than a genuine deep emotional hatred for a child. 

[Ausmumof3]

Well, this went from positive to negative.

 

I'm glad to know that children playing independently is apparently abnormal. Apparently my three kids, ALL of my other mother friends aside from this one, not to mention mine and my husbands younger siblings and all of their friends (we were older-enough to be teens when there were still toddlers at home), plus the kids of friends we had while childless who we observed many times, were all exceptionally abnormal, because I can't imagine a playdate which consists of constant active supervision, and it's definitely not what occurs in any of my social groups. I understand some kids are not neurotypical, that's different and I have endless empathy for those families, I volunteered with a special needs playgroup for awhile as a teen as well as helping a family who adopted and fostered autistic and downs children. I do know the difference. I also understand some kids are particularly difficult no matter what a parent does and when a parent acknowledges that it's a different thing.

 

But in this instance it's definitely a combo of gender issues, the mother being unable to really control a male child, plus an attachment parenting philosophy gone rather extreme to a child-ruling-the-home philosophy, plus a mother not knowing how to instill discipline and being overwhelmed and not sure what to do. I have sympathy for her, she asks my advice, I help and model things where I can, she specifically asks me how I do x and y or how I taught a and b, but then can't follow through herself, she wont say no to them, and then she tries to use discipline but 'timeout' consists of her sitting beside her child for the entire duration, which can easily end up 10 minutes long if the child is refusing to cooperate, and she tries the one, two, three thing but she says it quickly, onetwothree, then does nothing at all afterwards, almost like turning onetwothree into a warning word rather than a meaningful tool. She asks them to clean up, and then does all the cleaning up herself while cheerfully asking them 20 times to join in, it's fostering a situation of them walking all over her, and it's heartbreaking to see.

 

But, it seems many of you expect to spend the entirety of visits chasing kids and offering constant active supervision, so, I guess there's a big cultural difference here between the social circles I'm familiar with and the ones represented here.

But you are talking about two and four year olds here. Older kids sure. My kids all go off and play. But at two no way. I would expect to need to supervise and intervene at least some of the time.

[Ausmumof3]

Also there's a difference in my experience between end of the family preschoolers and toddlers and first preschoolers and toddlers.

[eternalsummer]

I will say that I do the vast majority of the actual cleaning up after my 2 year old, and probably 50% of it after my 4 year old.  They are "working" the whole time - it's just that I'm more efficient, so if we both clean for 5 minutes, I've done 95% of the 2 year old's cleaning and 50% of the 4 year old's cleaning.  I don't view this as coddling them - as they get older, they get more efficient, and eventually even do it all themselves :)  My 12 year old even cleans up after the younger ones - she's a net benefit at this point, cleaning-wise!

 

 

I have 4 boys; one of them has a lot of natural anxiety.  The way I interact with him probably looks like undisciplined giving in a lot of the time.  I am not overwhelmed, but he does require me to give in to him a lot more than my others have.  Probably it seems like I am unable to control him; in fact I am in complete control - generally you can tell this because I am 30something and he is 4.  We both know I am running the show.  For him, though, when he has more control of his environment (within the confines that I set, of course, since I buy the food and run the computer and buy the toys and start the car and open the door to go outside and etc.) he is more relaxed and can concentrate on playing, or being polite, or eating his vegetables.  If I constantly insist on being right about everything all the time, even as much as I do and did with my other kids, he becomes anxious and aggressive and unhappy and unpleasant.

 

This doesn't mean I'm not in control - I am - but my control is different with him.  It is less overt and more covert.  I manage his environment, and gently guide him into various external requirements for behavior; it is a slower, more conscientious process than with most of my other kids.

 

 

All kids are different, even with the same parent.  I have another one who was born with the mission of defeating every childproofing measure known to man.  Because of him we own no sharp knives, the front and back door have multiple locks, medicines are not just on the highest shelf but on the highest shelf in a closet in a room he cannot access, I rinse out empty bottles of cleaning products before I put them in the trash, and when I do put them in the trash I bury them under half a bag of trash and sometimes wrap them in something else.

 

 

I also have the easiest kid in the world, a girl.  She is the kid who makes everyone think you are the perfect parent.  She has been able since age 2 to go in a store and stand right next to you, silently, while you decide which mustard to buy.  

[domestic_engineer]

What about telling your friend that you feel like you aren't really connecting during your times together, and then suggest a time at night - after the kids are in bed - when you can have a phone call or text conversation with just each other?  Maybe give her a candy bar or tea bag and you two can "share" the same treat but in your respective homes?   In other words, treat her like a long-distance girlfriend.

[Pen]

Mom could be overwhelmed, and could be unsure as to how to handle the expectation that the boys will play nicely without supervision. She's described as being a really lovely person, so my money would be on overwhelm and not really knowing how to hande the behaviours, and maybe - maybe - getting some of the 'boys will be boys' from dad. Even perhaps some undermining of her efforts to deal with behaviours others make excuses for. 

 

I liked maize's book suggestion. 

 

I'd also move playdates outside, to a playground. I'd model supervision of the kids. 

 

I'd probably do a few more things for a really lovely friend than a mere acquaintance. 

 

 

That's true.  It is impossible to know how bad the situation is that OP is dealing with.

 

The ones that I experienced included the "boys-will-be-boys" when they got past the toddler stage (4 different boys and different situations): 1) attacking another child with a shovel, 2) burying another child's live kitten, 3) attacking 2 other children with rocks, 4) jumping on top of a smaller child and breaking that smaller child's collar bone.   2 of those boys did ultimately improve a lot--unfortunately at least in one case, the parent did not take the situation seriously until the harm had gotten to the stage of the forementioned incident. 

 

I think for the really lovely friend, trying to maintain the friendship makes sense, but if the boys are out of control, the mom needs to put her own daughters' safety above the parental friendship.  

 

The expectation that the boys will play nicely without supervision is probably not realistic, so any get-togethers that involve the boys probably need to assume that supervision of the boys is a top priority over parental chatting or anything like that.  It should probably be built right into any plans at the start.

[AimeeM]

I think it's fantastic that your toddlers were able to play without supervision or much attention.

 

Mine haven't ever been able to separate and play unsupervised for more than a few minutes at that age.

 

Let's even take our special needs out of the equation. I don't know many two year olds who can -- or should -- play for long without supervision. Hitting and breaking things is fairly typical for that age. In fact, it's pretty common for four year olds, too. Not wanting to separate from mom? Some kids just need their mom. 

 

Personally, I think you have unrealistic expectations -- if all they are doing is hanging off mom (some kids need more attention and don't care for separation -- that doesn't make them "demanding brats"), and the two year old is hitting (again, mom needs to correct, but it's typical... and why two year olds shouldn't play long without supervision), or the four year old is breaking things (not uncommon), that makes them pretty typical in my circle of friends. 

[AimeeM]

I'm at the stage where I will tell off other people's kids. I'm sick of it.

 

I'm really curious how this goes over. 

 

Because if you (general "you" -- friend, family member, or who-the-crap-ever) told off my kids, while I was there and you weren't directly in a position of authority over them, you wouldn't have to worry about saving a relationship with me -- we would no longer be friends. There is zero reason to tell off a kid who isn't yours, if their parent is sitting right there. If the parent doesn't do anything, after you talk to them (you know, the other adult in the situation) about the problem, it's time to cut contact -- not tell off a kid.

[Pen]

I guess it depends on what the actual situation is. I have one child who does tend to break things quite a lot. But he isn't really aggressive, just unlucky / clumsy (and I am being quite objective here). When he was little I saw him literally just pick up a wooden train and it came apart in his hands. There is a huge difference between a kid running and falling with something in his/her hand that breaks from one smashing something on purpose. 

 

I do agree that "boys will be boys" is a bad excuse for horrible behaviour. But if it was a situation with several very polite, compliant children and mine were much louder/wilder I can see saying something to that effect. After all you have to say something... Obviously I don't know the OP's situation so it is difficult to know how bad the kids really are acting.

 

 

I guess the word 'hate' in thread title and hitting, makes me think it is not just a clumsiness/unluckiness situation.  

 

Is OP the sort of person to hate a toddler because he is clumsy?  I don't know OP.

 

 

 

 

I don't know if they've been mentioned yet, but the books Beyond Time Out  and The Explosive Child might be helpful for the  OP's friend--the boys' mom. It may also be that the boys' could use being assessed by a professional to see if anything is going on beyond normal developmental progress.  Don't know if friendship is good enough for OP to talk about such things with her friend, but if it is, maybe that would be a help to her friend.  If not, probably it would be resented.