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My daughter is 11.5 and we're in a rut.

 

I just can't properly engage her at the moment. 

 

She used to spark with delight and interest in *everything*. Where is that child??

 

I wonder sometimes if it is the age/stage of development.

 

In Montessori terms, children in the 12-15 range respond best to easing off the academics, allowing them more sleep and flexibility during the period of rapid changes and growth. 

This makes sense, but I find it hard to actually let go and let this happen too much, because I'm solely responsible for her education. That's a pretty big weight that I find hard to hold sometimes. Plus I need to ensure I'm ticking all the boxes for our state government home education registration.

 

And then I remind myself that she's quite accelerated across the board, so maybe we could/should ease off a bit?

 

But experience with this child also tells me that she *needs* brain food in some form. Maybe I should be ramping it up?

 

I need to find the balance and I need to find that elusive perfect brain food.

 

Not quite sure what I'm asking. Just sharing my woes and wondering if anyone can relate.

 

 

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I'd try ramping it up while decreasing busywork-type of output expectations (if there are any).  Then I'd streamline the remaining output so that the only output is math and one writing assignment or project at a time (and foreign language, if you're doing that).  The rest of the output (comprehension questions and whatnot) can be oral or on a whiteboard at the couch.

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In Montessori terms, children in the 12-15 range respond best to easing off the academics, allowing them more sleep and flexibility during the period of rapid changes and growth.

This makes sense, but I find it hard to actually let go and let this happen too much, because I'm solely responsible for her education. That's a pretty big weight that I find hard to hold sometimes. Plus I need to ensure I'm ticking all the boxes for our state government home education registration.

My DS11 is turning 12 in early December. For him, I go by the minimum that the local public school would do or some things would just get neglected. We tried unschooling for a year and he backslide while DS12 just stagnate. So doing a minimum became essential for him.

 

DS11 has never sparkled with delight at anything. However he was bored with his precalculus online class so I added a statistics online self paced class for him. Having two maths class makes maths bearable to him. His tolerance for boredom is lower than DS12.

 

DS12 who is turning 13 soon, has always needed more academics because he doesn’t have non-academic hobbies. I just signed him up for a self paced Linear Algebra class to keep him busy. He doesn’t want to add more science or more languages. He is doing physics and chemistry, German and Chinese. He ask for more social activities so now he goes to a chess club and a strategy game club.

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Have you asked your DD what she thinks she needs, Chooky? From what I know of her, she's pretty insightful.

 

Does she want bare bones lessons and more time to pursue her own interests (piano, crochet, etc.)? Does she need a lot of time doing things which soothe her?

 

Or does she want more stimulating lessons - more challenge?

 

Or a new instrument? *cough 'cello cough* I spent a good many hours with my arms wrapped around an instrument at that age.

 

How does she spend her time when you're not doing lessons? Is she able to keep herself occupied when she has free time, or is she a bit lost and uninspired?

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Or a new instrument? *cough 'cello cough* I spent a good many hours with my arms wrapped around an instrument at that age.

My DS12 is more likely to behave like Martin Molin (wintergatan) than Steven Sharp Nelson (piano guys). He more interested in the works of a luthier than being a player.

 

My music instruments interest peak at 9-12 years old and diminish from 12-18. I pick that hobby up again in college. From 12-18, I was more interested in audio engineering than music instruments. The public schools that I attended had an orchestra from 3rd grade to 12th grade so it wasn’t a money issue but a change of interest.

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I would not ease off at that age. That is the age where the local schools start a foreign language, orchestra, science etc. Many private schools ramp up in middle school and the accelerated kids are pretty much done with high school level work by 15. So, as previously mentioned, you can see if a new language, an orchestra instrument, a structured sport etc ignites a spark in her again. Another option is to see if math and science competitions interest her.

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I don't have time to read the replies at the moment but around that age, dd became much more involved in what she studied and we followed her interests more. She also had more input in how and when she did her schoolwork. She still had to do a minimum in certain core subjects but she chose the foreign language that interested her, came up with ideas for projects/extra study she wanted to pursue on her own, and we spent a lot of time curled up on the couch reading together or in the car talking/singing together.

 

She found she preferred to do most of her schoolwork at night often a few days-worth in a subject at one time then have the days free to sleep in a bit and mess with her music. It wasn't good for my schedule but as long as she completed what she needed to complete each week, it worked. It was also around that time that I started outsourcing a bit...an online course here or there and she began working with an outside teacher who is now her tutor for language arts. I think it helped her to have new ideas and ways of doing things from other people.

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For DD, that age was the drive for more social stuff and other kids, and less solitary interests. So, she’s doing less herpetology on her own-but is adoring doing more teaching and outreach. She moved to a more competitive cheer gym that practices more. And she now does most of her classes in a group. 12-13 is looking very different from 10-11, and I do think we’ve eased off some on academics as a result (only on this board would doing 9 college credits plus several other classes be easing off for a middle schooler-but honestly, DD’s time spent per subject has gone down since starting college classes.)

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This is all really helping me to clarify my thoughts. Thank you.

 

Firstly, my daughter does already have considerable autonomy regarding her studies.

I provide a weekly plan that outlines my goals for the week, but she then has control over the order to do things, which days to do things, what time of day, how long to spend on things etc.

We also discuss new topics together, and I have no problem shelving things for a while if they fall flat.

 

The problem is, I feel like she wants to shelve everything at the moment.  *sigh*

 

A few thoughts:

 

- We're in Australia. This is nearing the end of the school year here. Are we in burn-out? We school year-round, but we do ease off the regular academics when her sister/bestie is on uni holidays, so that they can do more projects together. 

 

- We have a bit of change going on and I know that's affecting her. These are things she needs to accept, but it isn't easy for her.

 

- Maybe it's time to out-source something. This is a good thought. We haven't done this before (other than piano lessons), so I'll have to look into options that fit our time-zone. Creative writing could be good. Bravewriter maybe?

 

- It seems like she wants/needs to get out and about more. But this is an anxious introvert who doesn't like children or groups or change. Hmmm. I need to ponder the options. Any ideas? Some sort of community involvement or volunteering perhaps?

 

- Time to book in those cello lessons. 

 

- She's asked how old she needs to be to get a job. She's 11, so she can't legally work here yet. Maybe she could look into setting up an Etsy store for her crochet creations? 

 

- She's asked how old she needs to be to start uni too. She and her sister are planning on having a day out to visit her sister's campuses, just for fun. I really don't know what our options would be for early enrolment, but I can't see that happening just yet anyway. We still have plenty of foundations to lay.

 

- Spare time: If she's got a current crochet project, she's busy and mostly happy. She crochets away while watching movies, listening to podcasts etc. If she's between projects, she's lost and bored.

 

 

Pegs, you know her so well (Pegs is a dear friend IRL). A is insightful, you're right, and this overall feeling of meh makes her feel uncomfortable. It's a new feeling and it doesn't sit well. I think she's confused that she's not interested or sparkling at things too. And she is needing a lot of soothing recently...

 

 

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It looks like you have a decent little collection of things to try. I think an Etsy shop could be heaps of fun, and A need not be without a project at any given moment.

 

I'm getting the feeling that maybe you'll be switching focus from academics to mental health for a little while. Lots of chill-out time with crochet, movies, game plays on YouTube, podcasts, 'cello, piano, good books.

 

Add some maths and some writing to be done each day or week, whichever suits A better, and you've still got yourself a wholesome, stimulating, unschooly kinda set-up.

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- She's asked how old she needs to be to get a job. She's 11, so she can't legally work here yet. Maybe she could look into setting up an Etsy store for her crochet creations? 

 

I don't know about the legalities in AU (nor here, tbh - just that people do it), but here the Red Cross offers a babysitting course for kids 11+, so she'd be old enough for that. In reality, practically nobody is going to hire an 11yo to babysit, but some people might hire one as a mother's helper (i.e. mom is home doing other stuff while the kid gets paid to look after the kids). Also, lawn-mowing for neighbors is something that can be done as soon as the kid is big enough to handle a lawn-mower.

 

ETA: if she's into writing, she could try to make a neighborhood newspaper and sell it to the neighbors for like something like 25c per edition or w/e. Or maybe she could tutor some smaller kids for money. 

Edited by luuknam
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This is all really helping me to clarify my thoughts. Thank you.

 

Firstly, my daughter does already have considerable autonomy regarding her studies.

I provide a weekly plan that outlines my goals for the week, but she then has control over the order to do things, which days to do things, what time of day, how long to spend on things etc.

We also discuss new topics together, and I have no problem shelving things for a while if they fall flat.

 

The problem is, I feel like she wants to shelve everything at the moment.  *sigh*

 

 

Pegs, you know her so well (Pegs is a dear friend IRL). A is insightful, you're right, and this overall feeling of meh makes her feel uncomfortable. It's a new feeling and it doesn't sit well. I think she's confused that she's not interested or sparkling at things too. And she is needing a lot of soothing recently...

 

I think you got some good ideas :) 

 

I'd also add that 11.5 can be a rather trying time, biologically speaking, as well. Everyone needs a break at some point, so I agree with the idea of letting her find a spark outside of school, then coming back to it. Oh, and... I'd just keep an eye on sleep/eating/etc habits-- probably not an issue, but still.

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I think you got some good ideas :)

 

I'd also add that 11.5 can be a rather trying time, biologically speaking, as well. Everyone needs a break at some point, so I agree with the idea of letting her find a spark outside of school, then coming back to it. Oh, and... I'd just keep an eye on sleep/eating/etc habits-- probably not an issue, but still.

 

Hmmm. Eating and sleeping. I've rambled on extensively about these over in the Parenting Accelerated Learners social group, where it feels a bit less public. 

'Yes' to issues with eating and sleeping, but we're working on it, and these issues are actually not too bad right now. They are always there, simmering away, but they only rise up to problem-level every now and then.

 

I appreciate you joining in and offering your thoughts. I read your profile - so interesting!

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It looks like you have a decent little collection of things to try. I think an Etsy shop could be heaps of fun, and A need not be without a project at any given moment.

 

I'm getting the feeling that maybe you'll be switching focus from academics to mental health for a little while. Lots of chill-out time with crochet, movies, game plays on YouTube, podcasts, 'cello, piano, good books.

 

Add some maths and some writing to be done each day or week, whichever suits A better, and you've still got yourself a wholesome, stimulating, unschooly kinda set-up.

 

Thanks Pegsy. Your thoughts and input mean an awful lot to me, and this girl of mine adores you (as do I).

 

Just yesterday she said, 'Why is bloody Australia so bloody big?', in the context of 'why-can't-Pegs-live-down-the-street'.  :)

Edited by chocolate-chip chooky
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I know it's only a few days on, but how's all this sitting with you now, Chookster?

 

Hi there Pegsy.

 

We're doing okay, thanks.

 

A and I have talked quite a bit and shelved a couple of things that had got boring. We discussed other ways to cover things.

 

She's asked to have a rest from AoPS. Wow, I didn't see that coming, but I'm happy to roll with it. A month ago she was powering through both Intro to Alg and also Geometry. I wonder if she's had a bit of maths burnout.  We have several maths options, so we're just dipping into other things and doing a bit of revision here and there.

 

 

Overall, we've sort of eased off a bit in the academics, while making sure to keep busy, busy, busy in other productive ways.

Lots of crochet projects, as you well know :)

Lots of time on drama-style projects with her sister. 

She loves Korean and does this with her sister too.

 

And she had her first cello lesson today, which she loved, as you know. Our next step with that is to look for a suitable rental cello and get as many lessons in as possible before the teacher stops for the holidays.

Cello is looking spark-worthy, I'm pleased to report.

 

So, a couple of new things to focus on has been great. Also, time with her sister, and chatting with a certain someone on Hangouts has also certainly helped :)

 

Edited by chocolate-chip chooky
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It sounds like she really is entering a new season, hey? Maybe that Montessori stages stuff isn't complete nonsense after all. ;)

 

I'm glad that A's still got some sparkly stuff going on while she transitions into some downtime. All the best with getting 'cello happening!

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It sounds like she really is entering a new season, hey? Maybe that Montessori stages stuff isn't complete nonsense after all. ;)

 

I'm glad that A's still got some sparkly stuff going on while she transitions into some downtime. All the best with getting 'cello happening!

 

"A new season". I like that  :)

It implies that it's a natural transition that's transitory. It may even be pleasant. I love autumn, so let's call this autumn  :)

 

To be clear, the things that she's loving right now are very valuable, and are clearly what she needs right now.

I'll just tune in to my inner-meteorologist to gauge when the season is shifting again, and start nudging those other things at her again eg AoPS 

 

Honestly, this 'season' right now reminds of when she was quite young. Everything was 100% or 0%. If she was 'in', then it was all in and off we'd go. Deep, fast, passionate, highly engaged. But if she wasn't genuinely interested, well, we were wasting our time. 

 

And this is much like what Montessori said - the years 12-15 mimic the years 0-3 in many ways. Fast growth, lots of changes, huge appetite, need for lots of sleep, turbulent emotions, looking for independence (albeit in quite different ways) etc.

 

It makes sense, right?

I think that we're all so used to mainstream schooling and the way it has always been done, that we assume that it is therefore the right way and the best way and maybe even the only way. 

 

I think I need to listen to my Montessori roots and 'follow the child' during this season.

 

Pegs, thank you millions for helping me think this through and for everything you do to help A along.

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Invest in cello strings and rosin, especially if she has hypersensitive fingers like my DS12. He enjoyed his rental cello more with better strings. He also like to play with the cello mute and experiment with the difference.

 

We're planning on heading to a specialist strings place today, in search of a suitable rental, so I'll be sure to ask about the string quality.

 

Thank you for mentioning that. I wouldn't have thought of it.

 

I haven't even heard of cello mute. What is that?

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I haven't even heard of cello mute. What is that?

We have the practice cello mute and the tourte round cello mute. My kid plucks as well as bow his cello.

 

Link explains the different kinds https://www.cellocentral.com/6-best-cello-mutes/

 

ETA:

You would need an cello end pin holder too to protect your floor from the cello end pin. Something like the link https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00SY5C3CQ

Edited by Arcadia
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I'd never read that about Montessori thought on this age range, but IME, it is spot on. 

 

That's pretty much exactly what I did for each of my 3 kids at that age range. Precisely. Amazing, actually. 

 

I had no idea what I was doing or why, but in each child's case, it was clear when they needed for me to back off academically and support socially/emotionally at those ages. If I'd known I had good theoretical justification for backing off, I'd have had a lot less angst about it and done it sooner and more thoroughly and surely had less drama. As it was, I just muddled through. 

 

When my eldest was 10, I thought she'd surely be ready for college by 15 at the rate she was going . . . Same for each kid, lol. Then 11-15 hit . . . (about 2-3 years for each kid, a bit earlier for the girls and later for the boy) . . . And I swear things went backasswards for a couple years. Then we regrouped and carried forward. 

 

So, anyway, having my youngest now 15 and just past the very awkward years, I'd say, yes, please, embrace the need for some backing off on school to allow for more rest, more social engagement, more navel gazing, more drama . . . it is the nature of adolescence. I'd advise ideally keeping academics to 4-5 hr/day during those years . . . while requiring substantial time in extracurriculars, service, sport, social things, etc. And strongly supporting time management and study skill habits. And requiring good sleep habits and good exercise, too. Those things help prevent mental health problems, which are fairly epidemic at this age. Tons of time on their hands isn't a great idea, but they need much more time to reflect, socialize healthily, etc. than they used to . . . Essentially, the need for "play time" for early elementary morphs to a need for social/navel gazing/reading/music time for young adolescents, IMHO. 

 

 

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We have the practice cello mute and the tourte round cello mute. My kid plucks as well as bow his cello.

 

Link explains the different kinds https://www.cellocentral.com/6-best-cello-mutes/

 

ETA:

You would need an cello end pin holder too to protect your floor from the cello end pin. Something like the link https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00SY5C3CQ

 

Thanks heaps, Arcadia.

 

It's great to know that between you and Pegs we have some wonderful cello support. It really is appreciated.

 

 

We picked up a rental cello yesterday and it is beautiful. I'm hoping our new season has a soundtrack of cello music  :)

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I'd never read that about Montessori thought on this age range, but IME, it is spot on. 

 

That's pretty much exactly what I did for each of my 3 kids at that age range. Precisely. Amazing, actually. 

 

I had no idea what I was doing or why, but in each child's case, it was clear when they needed for me to back off academically and support socially/emotionally at those ages. If I'd known I had good theoretical justification for backing off, I'd have had a lot less angst about it and done it sooner and more thoroughly and surely had less drama. As it was, I just muddled through. 

 

When my eldest was 10, I thought she'd surely be ready for college by 15 at the rate she was going . . . Same for each kid, lol. Then 11-15 hit . . . (about 2-3 years for each kid, a bit earlier for the girls and later for the boy) . . . And I swear things went backasswards for a couple years. Then we regrouped and carried forward. 

 

So, anyway, having my youngest now 15 and just past the very awkward years, I'd say, yes, please, embrace the need for some backing off on school to allow for more rest, more social engagement, more navel gazing, more drama . . . it is the nature of adolescence. I'd advise ideally keeping academics to 4-5 hr/day during those years . . . while requiring substantial time in extracurriculars, service, sport, social things, etc. And strongly supporting time management and study skill habits. And requiring good sleep habits and good exercise, too. Those things help prevent mental health problems, which are fairly epidemic at this age. Tons of time on their hands isn't a great idea, but they need much more time to reflect, socialize healthily, etc. than they used to . . . Essentially, the need for "play time" for early elementary morphs to a need for social/navel gazing/reading/music time for young adolescents, IMHO. 

 

Thanks, Stephanie. 

Montessori had some amazing insights all that time ago.

 

I really don't know much about Montessori adolescent programs. I'm trained in 0-3 and 3-6, and we don't have real Montessori adolescent programs in my part of the world. They sound amazing though. The teens live and work on a farm, with a flexible schedule, I believe, so they are getting lots of nature, lots of exercise and the flexibility to work within their natural teen body rhythms. And a big focus is developing economical independence, so they would usually have an active business tied in with it. It really sounds amazing.

 

It honours the sensitive periods of social, emotional and physical health, which sounds spot-on for what my daughter needs right now  :o

 

If you're interested, the word to google is Erdkinder.

 

Thanks for joining the conversation. I appreciate your thoughts.

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