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Marrying Down?


goldberry
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Wow, this article astounded and insulted me.  I am married to an amazing, AMAZING man who is hardworking and smart, but not "ambitious" or particularly go-get-em in the education or career world.  In our early marriage I made more money than he did.  He was raised in a family that didn't teach financial or life planning.  

 

When we were young and first married, this used to bother me, since I was raised in traditional household with a dominant father figure and a SAHM.  Fortunately, I was able to understand the zillion other crazy valuable qualities that my DH has that make him the perfect husband and an incredible father to our daughter.  I look up to him and admire him and have learned from him in so many ways.

 

This article is so insulting, that the idea of less education and less career success equals "marrying down".  UGH.

 

And I say this as a person who does believe that men and women are often better suited for different roles, and who has a fairly traditional sort of "modified headship" relationship.  But this article is totally abusing that concept and twisting it into something demeaning and insulting.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/11/16/suzanne-venker-my-message-for-women-marrying-down-is-nothing-to-celebrate.html

My message for women -- 'Marrying down' is nothing to celebrate
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That was a very weird article.

 

Current reality is that women are more likely than men to get a college degree. I can't figure out if the author wants all the women to stop getting educated or thinks that somehow all these educated women should ALL find even more educated men to marry (magically)? Or some of them shouldn't marry? Or...maybe we need the corporate world to do even more than it does now to pay men more than women?

 

And that data point about men whose wives make more than them being more likely to cheat is weird in the context of her pointing out how mothers are likely to drop out of the work force, at which point they would definitely not be making more.

 

The whole article was just weird weird weird.

Edited by maize
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Yeah, it's a pretty poor, stupid article in my mind also.

 

I have a wonderful dad who was illiterate when he married my mom.  Their marriage has lasted through 56 years and 6 kids and my dad has always been the breadwinner (though my mom was also a breadwinner for many years).

 

The writer apparently believes that once a woman is well-educated, she is unable to survive a life without expensive luxuries.  Real great logic.

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Well, it's kind of taking the idea that men and women have different strengths and qualities, which I don't disagree with necessarily, and twisting it all over the place.  Also just the idea that a man who doesn't have a "successful career" by societal standards is some kind of loser... Men should be insulted by this.

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I married "down" in terms of class but he was upwardly mobile so I liked him better than the entitled boys I grew up around and encountered in college. He was hungry for success in a way that those who could rely on Mumsy and Daddy's connections could not.

 

My mom and both my grandmas did the same thing in terms of marrying someone from a modest background but who pulled himself up by his bootstraps.

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Though if she is talking about the situations where greedy scumbag men marry women to get access to their money ... that might skew the research.  A guy I dated was like that.  He didn't do a good enough job of hiding his true nature, thankfully.  On the other hand, there are women like that too ....

 

Another observation of mine - more educated women marrying less educated men could, statistically, increase the likelihood of political and/or religious differences.  While I know of many old marriages that have withstood that, maybe it's harder nowadays - people seem more passionate and less forgiving about certain intellectual differences.

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The only way for ALL women to marry "up" in terms of education and/or earning power is for only men to have access to education and decent jobs.

 

That's not true. Women can push their boyfriends/fiances/husbands to increase their skillset and go after more lucrative jobs. It was always my expectation that my DH would earn a graduate degree and then professional certification. I've been encouraging him to get an additional certification in financial planning that would allow him greater geographic flexibility in jobs and/or to earn a good PT wage when he wants to retire from his current occupation.

 

There are plenty of spaces in college, graduate school, and vocational training programs for men who want to improve their lives.

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Though if she is talking about the situations where greedy scumbag men marry women to get access to their money ... that might skew the research.  A guy I dated was like that.  He didn't do a good enough job of hiding his true nature, thankfully.  On the other hand, there are women like that too ....

 

Yeah, that would come under character deficiency in my book.  On both the part of men and women.  Though this article seems to suggest it's natural and appropriate for women!

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There is an ancient Chinese term for marrying down. The problem is with supporting the lifestyle that the lady is used to. So it is more of the social economic aspect than a mental issue. When we married, my husband was poorer and my side of the family just “bail†us out with lots of cash gifts. My husband’s uncle is “bailing†his son-in-law out because his daughter is used to an expensive lifestyle. For example his daughter was given a new BMW as one of the wedding gifts by her dad.

 

One of my uncle’s wife left him and their kid for a rich boyfriend but she didn’t marry down. She was poorer than my uncle but my uncle wasn’t rich enough for her needs. So there are people like my uncle’s ex wife but it has to do with wanting a luxurious lifestyle and not about marrying down, they want to marry into wealth.

 

I know quite a few ladies who are happy their husbands are great SAHDs from when their kids are in their infancy to college age. I’ll say the author is bias in the part quoted below as “glaring†differences doesn’t mean unhappiness or eminent divorce. It is an opinion piece though so it’s just her opinion. I don’t even know who the author is.

 

“Indeed it does. Pretending that women surpassing men educationally and financially is a good thing – because we’re enlightened now and believe in equality – is foolish. Every married couple feels “equal,†or the same, until the kids arrive. It is afterward that our differences become glaring.

 

And the more we ignore them, the more precarious our marriages will be.â€

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Yeah, one of my business partners is extremely successful financially.  She "married down."  Her husband got a teacher's certificate but is mainly a SAHD.  Well this has been great for her, since one of her kids has special educational & medical needs and two of them have special dietary needs.  SAHD works with them after school and cooks every day - something I sure don't do.  Mom can focus on her work without worrying about the kids.  In my opinion her husband is quite a catch!

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I married "down" in terms of class but he was upwardly mobile so I liked him better than the entitled boys I grew up around and encountered in college. He was hungry for success in a way that those who could rely on Mumsy and Daddy's connections could not.

 

My mom and both my grandmas did the same thing in terms of marrying someone from a modest background but who pulled himself up by his bootstraps.

 

Well, I married a man who was not "hungry for success" in any way.  He was a really laid back, take life as it comes guy.  He has changed some through our marriage, in part from my influence as a natural planning person, and in part from his own desire to grow and be a better provider.  He always was a hard worker though, kept a job, and had good work ethics.  He just wasn't about "climbing" anywhere.

 

But I grew up with a dad who was an exceptional provider materially, and totally absent emotionally.  That wasn't what I wanted in my marriage.  Of course, it would be great to have both, but real life doesn't always deliver those perfect packages!

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I would not have married a man who could not financially head up the household, and even I think that’s a badly written article with a lot of weird correlative/causative problems. It was icky and mercenary. The entire concept of marrying up or down is wrong, as though the financial worth of the person is the sum of their moral value too.

 

I do think women need to consider their personal goals and worldview and marry someone who matches them on that but beyond that it matters little (hence why I married someone with a better career - we both had the same view of marriage and child rearing and his higher income to be sole wage earner was compatible with that for both of us to get what we wanted out of the relationship).

 

Now, I do think there is a difference between marrying someone who is responsible financially and who is irresponsible with money. But that’s irrespective of earning amount.

 

I agree with this, especially the bolded.  

 

Adding, I could not have married someone without a decent work ethic (who stayed at home and played video games, for example.) 

Edited by goldberry
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I agree the article is a poor one. 

 

 

 

However.

 

Marrying someone with a significantly different financial experience from your own can cause issues.  

 

Budgeting, saving, paying bills and more are all handled differently depending on if you live in poverty, middle class or are wealthy. Within middle class there is quite a difference between lower and upper middle as well.   Not to mention general lifestyle expectations are different. 

 

I am not saying don't do it, or that you can't make it work. But money issues are a common cause of marital difficulty. 

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Marrying someone with a significantly different financial experience from your own can cause issues.  

 

Budgeting, saving, paying bills and more are all handled differently depending on if you live in poverty, middle class or are wealthy. Within middle class there is quite a difference between lower and upper middle as well.   Not to mention general lifestyle expectations are different. 

 

I am not saying don't do it, or that you can't make it work. But money issues are a common cause of marital difficulty. 

 

This is very true, even if you are at the same level financially though.  Money philosophies differ drastically.  For us, it was another area we had to learn to communicate and work together to solve. Yeah, it was difficult.  It didn't result in me not respecting him or looking down on him though, like the article implies.

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Such a weird article as everyone has pointed out.  It certainly doesn't take in account that men are more likely to be successful and upwardly mobile by other means than college.  My DH went to college for a year but hated it.  He joined the Navy and became a Nuke now he is a Nuclear Reactor Operator with a clear path to more advancement and is very well capable of providing for a family.  We also have several friends who own successful businesses that support large families comfortably don't have 4 yr degrees.

 

 

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I think she either mixed several things together or poorly communicated her intent. One quote was from a wife whose husband sounds like one of those men who just want to sit around and game. If by “marrying down†she meant not to marry lazy men, sure, I agree. But there is a difference between a lazy man who won’t step up after becoming a dad and a hardworking man who doesn’t aspire to a professional career or a huge salary.

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Umm... I purposely married up. I said so at the time too. So it wasn't out of my mind. I wanted certain things that I didn't have in my childhood and that meant that I would want to be with a certain type of person. So I put myself in an area that I would be around more of that type of person. I ended up marrying one. I only have sons right now, but I would want them to marry whomever they wish. I would hope that whomever they marry comes from a family that taught them right from wrong and how to be in a stable functional relationship. If not, then I hope they will be able to learn from their parents mistakes. 

 

When I have daughter(s), I will hope that they will marry either of the same level that we are at or higher. I don't see anything wrong with that. My mother graduated college after I did. My husbands grandfather had only a high school education. My FIL and DH have PhD's. Now my children will become whatever. I don't know at this point for one, but my older son is clearly going to be an engineer like grandpa. I would hope that he would marry someone that would be able talk to him about whatever. It is hard to predict how a daughter will be that I don't have right now. 

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I've seen several articles like this and they all seem to equate less education with less income.

 

However, I'm thinking of the couples I know where the woman has a college degree and the man does not and both work full time - and in every instance, the man makes significantly more money than his wife.

 

For example, I know several women who are teachers and earn around $50,000-60,000/yr., while their husbands work in construction related trades and earn well over double that amount per year.

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Suzanne Venker’s interview on Marketwatch Author Suzanne Venker: ‘alpha women’ should behave differently in the bedroom than the boardroom

 

“MarketWatch: I know you said it isn’t all about the woman’s career, but how does a woman’s financial or professional success change the relationships with the men in their lives?

 

Venker: It makes it harder. Marriage becomes competitive by nature, whereas if you’re not performing the same exact roles it is more complementary. Women who work at home full-time struggle with this just as much because their job during the day is to be in charge.

 

MarketWatch: But what about the money aspect of it all?

 

Venker: Research shows once women make more than their husbands, problems start to happen because women tend to use that money as a means of control. Psychologists say there are more fights about how the money is being spent when the man makes more but when she makes more, the fights are about who has the power, and that is a huge difference between the male breadwinner and female. It’s complicated. Also, men are programmed to provide — that’s where they get their identity so if you usurp that role, it’s going to be difficult because it goes against human nature.

 

[This study says couples rarely fight about money, and another psychologist says when couples do fight about money it’s usually not on the items bought themselves but anxieties driven from the past.]†https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-this-author-believes-working-women-should-do-even-more-at-home-2017-02-13

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I married DH before he had even started college, but I knew he had an incredible work ethic. He graduated college, became a teacher and then moved on to something else that pays a lot better. He works very hard and has of talent for learning new skills. But we're still very middle class, blue collar, etc. My SIL loves to use us as a "non-example" of what to do.  :glare:  And yet she complains about how poor they are. They live in a 4000 sq ft house in a great part of town, except she's always comparing her life to the ultra-mega-rich kids that her kids go to school with. And she's miserable because she can't stop comparing.

 

I love my life. Sure, more money would be convenient. But DH and I get along so well. He is such a good man and we rarely fight. And when/if there's an apocalypse, we're totally going to be okay because DH is amazing.  :laugh: When SIL goes on her tirades about how they (a lawyer and college professor) don't make enough money, it's really hard not to roll my eyes very dramatically.

 

Long story short-- money doesn't make people happy. Marry a good person who works hard, who has good morals and who you get along well with and you'll be a lot better off than if you're just looking for someone who can make a lot of money.

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[This study says couples rarely fight about money, and another psychologist says when couples do fight about money it’s usually not on the items bought themselves but anxieties driven from the past.]â€

DH and I started dating in our mid-teens, and we have never fought about money. I think that is because we have been together since 14/16, and he has seen first-hand the damage done from my childhood financial problems. It wasn't something I had to fill him in on 10+ years later. Career decisions is probably the one thing I remember putting a hard line on and having a Very Serious Discussion about. There are some situations and choices I could never willingly live through because of those anxieties from the past. Things that aren't wrong, but are very wrong for me. He understands and accepts that without judgment, and I'm often in awe of how well he has handled it over the years.

 

I often joke that I married up, because I feel like I got a steal on a life partner.

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By the time I married, my parents were upper middle class and i had several degrees to my name.

My husband grew up lower middle class, earned an A.S. degree and worked in construction. He graduated from paramedic school a few months after our wedding.

 

The other night he was at a standoff with police that turned into suicide by cop. When the guy began shooting, my husband instinctively moved himself in front of someone in the crowd, shielding her(he didn’t tell me this, because I’d get mad, but his partner did). Then he comes home and does six loads of laundry for me and made dinner so I can work on my second master’s degree. He doesn’t really value higher education, not like I do, but he knows it’s important to me and he’s supportive. Even after being up for 24 hours straight between being a paramedic and the local volunteer assistant fire chief.

 

Marrying down? I didn’t even come close.

Edited by MedicMom
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I think that the real problem is that women should take their income and education and use that as a baseline for men they are willing to date.  I remember seeing a show about that.  They were looking at a class from one of the tippy-top MBA programs 10 years after graduation.   Most of the women weren't married.  They complained that the problem was that their pool of potential men was so small since the men they would consider didn't limit themselves based on income or education.   So, the men they were interested in married their personal trainers from the gym and the women remained unmarried and talking about their biological clock.   The solution seemed very obvious to me.  What is wrong with the women marrying their personal trainer?   

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I struggled with the article. I think what they really want to be saying is " before you get married you need to have a real discussion about children, earning potential, and who is going to do what. That has nothing to do with education and everything to do with putting on your big girl pants and having the conversation before you get married. People show you who they are. If you are expecting them to be someone else after children arrive you best let them know that before you get married.

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I'm guessing we're just supposed to go back to arranged marriages.   :lol:

 

Personally - hubby and I married at the same level.  We were both in college having fun while earning degrees, we both enjoy deep discussions (whether about an academic topic or not), we both came from and enjoyed small farm/rural backgrounds, and we both enjoy doing many of the same things together in our spare time.  Oh wait, all that "enjoying each other" is what drew us together...  I guess we forgot to worry about whether that was up or down.

 

He makes far, far more than I do since he works full time and I don't.  I control the money (all of it except what I give him as a spending allowance).  We both do housework and raised our boys from diaper changing to parent/son talks.

 

It works for us.  ;)

 

So far, I like who my lads have picked.  One is married.  The other two have serious girlfriends.  All seem to have selected at the same level - having met at college, not up or down, but I don't think that really mattered TBH.

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I think shared values and aspirations are far more important than current earnings or education. DH acquired both the earnings and education AFTER we met and married. I didn’t marry down. He didn’t marry up. The attraction was instantaneous because we shared the same goals. Through the years, we’ve traded off with who makes more/less. It’s never been an issue.

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That article was a hot mess and so hilarious I just laughed. What is wrong with men being a parent that stays home? Why should a women expect to get to stay home in their marriage but not the other way around? I am a high achieving person by nature, I am wired that way. I knew me personally would not be satisfied choosing a spouse that wasn't academically driven and career oriented. It was more about wanting to be on the same page with my spouse. Other people choose spouses for different reasons.

 

My favorite part was when the article said "maybe women aren't geared toward being providers" or something like that. What in the world. All I had to do was look up though and see it was fox news and my questions were answered.

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By the time I married, my parents were upper middle class and i had several degrees to my name.

My husband grew up lower middle class, earned an A.S. degree and worked in construction. He graduated from paramedic school a few months after our wedding.

 

The other night he was at a standoff with police that turned into suicide by cop. When the guy began shooting, my husband instinctively moved himself in front of someone in the crowd, shielding her(he didn’t tell me this, because I’d get mad, but his partner did). Then he comes home and does six loads of laundry for me and made dinner so I can work on my second master’s degree. He doesn’t really value higher education, not like I do, but he knows it’s important to me and he’s supportive. Even after being up for 24 hours straight between being a paramedic and the local volunteer assistant fire chief.

 

Marrying down? I didn’t even come close.

 

:001_wub:  Real-life true love...

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This is misogynist bull shit.

 

 


They found that when women earned more than their husbands, they were more likely to use anti-anxiety medications and more likely to suffer from insomnia. One might conclude from this study that women, as a rule, aren’t wired to be providers.

Husbands, on the other hand, are emboldened when they take on this role. Men are made to provide and protect for their families. When they’re stripped of this power, it isn’t pretty.

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The only valid point is one she didn't make: if you care about ambition, marry someone ambitious.  Think about it and be honest if that's a priority for you.  Also, having things in common helps.

 

The rest of it is a bunch or relationship psychobabble from a woman who's clearly read too many "men power" and "red pill" relationship forums.  Hypergamy, really?  She lost me right there. The entire concept reduces relationships down to a genetic need to be with someone who outranks you for the security of your children. It also  enables lazy men who are bad at relationships to dismiss their lack of effort as a contributing factor to the demise of their relationships and evade all responsibility for why their wives left or cheated.  <start sarcasm font> It's not his fault, it's that he chose someone who outranked him on the scale.  Her getting sick of him and leaving was clearly genetically inevitable. </end sarcasm font>

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Was this about degrees? Or money.

 

Bill Gates and Steven Spielberg both dropped out of college.

 

Closer to home, is my nephew with a ged who easily makes more than his brother, who has three degrees. (His lawyer wife was the breadwinner. She dumped him)

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This is misogynist bull shit.

No kidding. Dsil is the one who is anxious and unhappy in his job. He is very ambitious, but dd easily makes more than him.

 

When he complains he's never felt so broke, she just smiles. (No school debt and working at a well paying job, She's never felt so rich.)

 

He's also the one who'll shop till you drop, and buys junk.

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My mom's family gave her a terrible time when she married my dad. She had a BA at the time (and eventually a Masters) and came from a family of PhDs and college professors and etc.  My dad came from a family of poor farmers and laborers; I don't think he got past 8th grade.  He worked with his dad as a young man doing road work - they built I-35 in Texas.

 

She didn't marry down.  She married up.  He was more responsible, more conscientious, more willing to do what was necessary even if it was a difficult or yucky job, etc.  His parents, though they had their problems, stayed together their whole lives and raised 3 kids (one a niece, raised from birth as their own), who themselves got married and had stable families and lives.  My mom's parents, with their fancy jobs and PhDs, broke up when mom was 12 and her mother ran off with a grad student, leaving 3 of the kids behind (and she did not see them again until they were grown).  Of those kids, only my mom made it out whole - the boys who were left behind developed drug addictions (one died from it), went to jail, had many failed marriages, etc.

 

So while my parents are/were both good people, and my mom is more educated and made more money, she married up, imo.

 

 

 

That said, I believe in the value of traditional women's and men's roles as nurturer/homemaker and provider/protector, respectively.  I just don't think money or the ability to provide money is the only measure of worth for either gender.

Edited by eternalsummer
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Well, first of all, I hated the article.  Let me count the ways, LOL.

 

But secondly, when I was a young engineer and dated other engineers, they were competitive with me, all the dang time.  I couldn't stand it.  I hate that feeling, and especially in a relationship where you're supposed to be pulling for each other.  With one of them, I worked hard and got promoted, and when he heard, he wasn't happy for me--he was just jealous.  He said, "Well, women always get promoted ahead of men."  I was so mad, and it kind of ruined the whole thing.  (Ironically, he was more of an affirmative action hire than I was.  But I digress.)  (Am I bitter?  No, but I know the facts.)

 

Whereas when I dated someone in the trades with no college, he made the same money that I did but he wasn't competitive.  He was happy for me when I did well, and we each knew and respected that the other knew and could do things that we could never learn.  And he could always plan on leaving on time, which was novel in my experience.  He left his job at the job mentally, which was also pretty refreshing. 

 

Compatibility and character are what pay off in the long run.

 

 

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By the time I married, my parents were upper middle class and i had several degrees to my name.

My husband grew up lower middle class, earned an A.S. degree and worked in construction. He graduated from paramedic school a few months after our wedding.

 

The other night he was at a standoff with police that turned into suicide by cop. When the guy began shooting, my husband instinctively moved himself in front of someone in the crowd, shielding her(he didn’t tell me this, because I’d get mad, but his partner did). Then he comes home and does six loads of laundry for me and made dinner so I can work on my second master’s degree. He doesn’t really value higher education, not like I do, but he knows it’s important to me and he’s supportive. Even after being up for 24 hours straight between being a paramedic and the local volunteer assistant fire chief.

 

Marrying down? I didn’t even come close.

This is amazing and you are a very blessed wife.

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The only valid point is one she didn't make: if you care about ambition, marry someone ambitious.  Think about it and be honest if that's a priority for you.  

 

For sure.  Lack of ambition was a big part of the reason I didn't stay with ds's father.  He's a moocher to this day.  (Not to be lumped in people who have temporary setbacks or even hard luck.)

 

Ambition isn't just about income, though.  Dh was working multiple minimum wage jobs when I met him, and intended to become a police officer.  That was ambitious, but he wasn't aiming for riches.  That took a turn and he was working a low hourly pay labor job when we got married, which actually did turn into relative riches!  Eventually.

 

What's hysterical is that his family does consider me a gold digger. They don't like to be reminded that we were pretty poor when we got married, and I worked, too, to barely make ends meet.  And they're the ones always looking to him for money.

 

I came from a struggling, single parent household. He came from one of the riches towns in the country.  Honestly, we didn't have any conversations about financial projections until *years* into our marriage, forget before it.  But we were 23 and didn't have much money to discuss!  It did create bumps in the road, but I don't feel they were any more than anyone else's.

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