Church..need some advice

[LEOW3301]

It might help you to muse on the difference between when one "praises" a living person, vs "worshipping" them. Of course one can give a glowing speech in praise of a friend, family member or mentor -- without being accused of acts of worship.

 

Similarly, we are able to freely ask living people to join their prayers with our own in intercessory prayer.

 

The catholic view of Mary is pretty special -- but it is not praise in the sense of 'praise and worship', and it is not intercession in the sense that she is a nessisary mediator. You don't have to be uncomfortable with it if you don't want to be.

That’s what I am not really understanding. I guess I don’t understand Mary and the true sense of it. I’m only hearing what others try to tell me that are against Catholicism.

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

Just wanted to say that I am stuck at Walmart, but will reply later to your specific questions. I promise!

Thanks! I appreciate it!

 

 

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[Southern Ivy]

I just want to reiterate that I said I DID NOT hold the pastor accountable for what his children did. It was the adult children that were in a leadership position teaching biblical studies outside of the actual preaching. So it was contradictory, because they taught biblical issues that they would then go against. I have NOTHING wrong with pastors and how they raise their children. I know that everyone has their own life and beliefs and children don’t always follow their parents. What I stated was that they were in a leadership position and that’s what I had a problem with. However, their father also did many of the things that they themselves did, so it really wasn’t that good of a church for my family. I just want to reiterate that. I don’t judge pastors based on their children.

 

Thank you for your advice about driving a distance for a good church. We do want our children to learn and grow up in a church, so it may be worth the drive. Thank you for your response!

 

 

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Gotchya. I read it several times, but I wasn't sure by the phrasing if the children were in leadership or just their father. Thus, the caveat that if they're in leadership, it's a different story. I've seen that as well, and that is so frustrating. Definitely wise to shut that one down. 

 

Finding a church is SO hard. I'm hoping what we're doing for my daughter works, but I have a feeling we may be looking for another church soon - which stinks because it took us a year to find this one. :/ 

[Twolittleboys]

Thank you! That’s good advice. I liked the Catholic Church, but feel I don’t really belong, due to leaving and not really believing in confession, etc.

I would go again, but just need some things cleared up in regards to beliefs and basically being brainwashed against the Catholic Church from the Baptist Church etc.

I’m so spiritually confused! :(

 

 

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I wouldn't worry about that at all. First, the Catholic Church is generally quite happy if people show up (well, that may not be so much the case in the US but definitely where I live as so few parishioners attend). Also, in my experience the Catholic Church today is really quite merciful. While the Church obviously feels that it is the "right" one it does not doubt that other Christians (and non-Christians) can go to heaven. 

 

As far as individual beliefs are concerned, there is some difference depending on the priest (and even within the church as such) but in general some disagreement wouldn't matter. For example there is no need to have anything to do with saints if it makes you uncomfortable. The Church does think saints are important but every person can chose how to implement them in their lives.

[MercyA]

I have been unconvinced in the past, too.  But it was largely through understanding what the Church *meant* by using words in a particular way that made sense of things.  The words have to mean the same thing for discussion to happen

 

Eg., We have an advocate in Christ.  EOx believe this.  (I use EOx so I won't get confused with Essential Oils haha).  But does that mean that NO ONE ELSe can advocate for us?  My son has an advocate in his father...but also in his mother (that would be me).  

 

We place our hope in Christ for everything, but that doesn't mean we can't place our hope in another for *something*.  I have hope that I can learn to obey Christ because I see how Mary did.  

 

Mary is "our life" because it is in the incarnation (the human portion contributed by Mary), in God become man, that we have our salvation.  Mary provided the human life to Christ, and so we have life through Him.

 

I would not have responded to this had you not used the word "dangerous."  In the modern world, 2/3 of Christianity believes in calling Mary "blessed" and insodoing defends the dogma of the Incarnation, the basis of all our hope and salvation--God made man.    This has been the teaching of the church through time (until the 1500s) and space and deserves consideration.  

 

I do not mean to set us against one another personally; I learn from you and value your speaking up, and note that you do so with clarity and grace.  I mean to emulate you in this way, but I am almost certainly failing in this post.  But I hope that we can stand in peace, even if we do not see eye-to-eye as we state what we believe.  

 

Thank you for your kindly stated response, Patty Joanna. :)

 

Calling Mary "blessed" and praying prayers like "Hail Holy Queen" are, in my view, worlds apart. 

 

I don't judge the merit of spiritual practices on their popularity, but rather on their alignment (or lack thereof) with Scripture. I see no Biblical basis for such prayers--no mention of them in the New Testament and certainly no permission for any believer to attempt to speak to fellow human beings who have passed.

 

I have felt emotionally drawn, in times past, to the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, so am not coming at this--or at you!--in a wholly unsympathetic way. However, I did not use the word "dangerous" lightly. This issue truly is that significant to me; the OP can decide herself how significant it is to her.

[Twolittleboys]

That’s what I am not really understanding. I guess I don’t understand Mary and the true sense of it. I’m only hearing what others try to tell me that are against Catholicism.

 

 

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To me it just isn't a main issue. I am Catholic and have no problem with Mary and the saints but for me this isn't a hill to die on so to speak (I do realize I may not follow official doctrine). To me the main idea of Christianity is the love of God, the fact that he sent his son to save the world, the fact that we should love our neighbor (and that really means everyone, even our enemies), and to show mercy. Obviously, these are hard rules to live by but if we all tried the world would definitely be a better world (no matter whether there is a God or not).

 

As long as this is the main emphasis of a church I am absolutely fine with it. Obviously, everyone has personal preferences as to style of church etc. and these do matter. But the main deciding factor for me is the above. Whether we ask saints for interference, revere Mary etc. are to me mostly side issues.

[bolt.]

Thank you for your kindly stated response, Patty Joanna. :)

 

Calling Mary "blessed" and praying prayers like "Hail Holy Queen" are, in my view, worlds apart.

 

I don't judge the merit of spiritual practices on their popularity, but rather on their alignment (or lack thereof) with Scripture. I see no Biblical basis for such prayers--no mention of them in the New Testament and certainly no permission for any believer to attempt to speak to fellow human beings who have passed.

 

I have felt emotionally drawn, in times past, to the Catholic and the Orthodox churches, so am not coming at this--or at you!--in a wholly unsympathetic way. However, I did not use the word "dangerous" lightly. This issue truly is that significant to me; the OP can decide herself how significant it is to her.

Is "permission" required in order to speak to those who have passed? It seems more like something that would be forbidden if it was dangerous. (As we have neither permission nor prohibition, it's pretty solidly in the zone of Christian freedom.)

[LEOW3301]

Gotchya. I read it several times, but I wasn't sure by the phrasing if the children were in leadership or just their father. Thus, the caveat that if they're in leadership, it's a different story. I've seen that as well, and that is so frustrating. Definitely wise to shut that one down.

 

Finding a church is SO hard. I'm hoping what we're doing for my daughter works, but I have a feeling we may be looking for another church soon - which stinks because it took us a year to find this one. :/

 

I stink at my wording, so I apologize for any misunderstanding.

Yes, it’s so hard to find a church! I’ll pray for you and your family that you find one, too!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

Well, that's interesting. I don't see anything in that particular prayer of concern. What part do you disagree with? You quoted the Bible about not having a mediator but she's interceding, not mediating. Don't you pray for other people, MercyA? Or ask them to pray for you? To me, read carefully, this prayer is asking Mary (who is not dead, but "alive with Christ") to intercede for us, much like we'd ask a pastor or friend or grandmother to pray for us. We're hurting, please pray for us. And then the prayer ends with a plea that in all the suffering, we ultimately see Jesus (the fruit of her womb).

 

Now that's not to say I agree with all Catholic theology and practices regarding Mary, but now being in a liturgical church that reverences (not worships) Mary for a good several years now, I get it. We are told in Scripture that "all generations will call [her] blessed." Does our generation, does our church today, do we in our home -- regularly -- call her blessed? It should, we should. I think a lot was thrown out with the bathwater at the reformation, to the detriment of Christians. But then again, all that was a non-issue in the Christian east.

Thanks for your explanation. It helped me to better understand Mary and her role in the Church.

 

 

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[ktgrok]

It's calling Mary "our life." Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). 

 

It's calling Mary "our hope." Jesus is "our hope" (1 Timothy 1:1).

 

It's calling Mary "our advocate." We have "an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1).

 

This is an incredibly serious thing, in my view.

 

I have many devout Catholic (and some Orthodox) friends. I've heard every rationalization possible for prayers like this and remain unconvinced that they are anything other than dangerous.

 

It's flowery language, to be sure. But it's along the same lines as how I call my husband "my world, my everything, my sweet, my love, my protector, my rock", etc. It is qualitatively different than my worship of Jesus. Mary is an advocate in the same sense that my husband is my advocate, not in the sense Jesus is. Same word, different meaning. 

 

Although that prayer isn't a required thing to be a Catholic anyway. One could be Catholic and never ever say it.

[LEOW3301]

I have been unconvinced in the past, too. But it was largely through understanding what the Church *meant* by using words in a particular way that made sense of things. The words have to mean the same thing for discussion to happen

 

Eg., We have an advocate in Christ. EOx believe this. (I use EOx so I won't get confused with Essential Oils haha). But does that mean that NO ONE ELSe can advocate for us? My son has an advocate in his father...but also in his mother (that would be me).

 

We place our hope in Christ for everything, but that doesn't mean we can't place our hope in another for *something*. I have hope that I can learn to obey Christ because I see how Mary did.

 

Mary is "our life" because it is in the incarnation (the human portion contributed by Mary), in God become man, that we have our salvation. Mary provided the human life to Christ, and so we have life through Him.

 

I would not have responded to this had you not used the word "dangerous." In the modern world, 2/3 of Christianity believes in calling Mary "blessed" and insodoing defends the dogma of the Incarnation, the basis of all our hope and salvation--God made man. This has been the teaching of the church through time (until the 1500s) and space and deserves consideration.

 

I do not mean to set us against one another personally; I learn from you and value your speaking up, and note that you do so with clarity and grace. I mean to emulate you in this way, but I am almost certainly failing in this post. But I hope that we can stand in peace, even if we do not see eye-to-eye as we state what we believe.

Thank you for your explanation on Mary. It truly helps to see what other people believe and helps me, because I don’t truly understand Mary in the church. I just want to make sure I’m doing the right thing and also understanding everything biblically! I, too, don’t want to offend anyone and hope we can all stand in peace. Beautifully written and thank you for taking the time to write your beliefs! It helped me!

 

 

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[mamaraby]

I’m only hearing what others try to tell me that are against Catholicism.

I have no horse in this race and can’t help you decide between competing theologies, but to this point here I guess I would go by what those who profess the beliefs tell you about what it means and how it is approached rather than relying upon those who don’t have those beliefs and have a vested interest in being right on the matter tell you that x, y, or z is not right because it’s really a, b, and c.

 

Let them speak to their own beliefs and ask them to keep their opinions about the other to themselves. Get it straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

 

And now I am sadly out of horse metaphors.

[MercyA]

Is "permission" required in order to speak to those who have passed? It seems more like something that would be forbidden if it was dangerous. (As we have neither permission nor prohibition, it's pretty solidly in the zone of Christian freedom.)

 

Because communication with those who have died is so strongly prohibited in the Old Testament, and because there is no positive basis for it in the New Testament, yes, I personally would need explicit permission to feel comfortable with it.

 

I do believe the use of other popular means of attempting to contact the deceased (mediums, ouija boards, etc.) would likely fall under the category of magic or sorcery, which is outright forbidden in the New Testament.

Edited November 16, 2017 by MercyA

[Laurie4b]

Yes, I was referring to the pastor and their families that preach and then go against what they state. That’s my big issue.

 

 

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If the leaders are Pharisees, it's hard for the organization they lead to function as a "church." 

 

I think you are absolutely right to want church leadership to live out the Christian life. I'm sure you're allowing for flaws here and there, but if we're talking patterns of sin, then yeah. Keep looking. 

[LEOW3301]

I wouldn't worry about that at all. First, the Catholic Church is generally quite happy if people show up (well, that may not be so much the case in the US but definitely where I live as so few parishioners attend). Also, in my experience the Catholic Church today is really quite merciful. While the Church obviously feels that it is the "right" one it does not doubt that other Christians (and non-Christians) can go to heaven.

 

As far as individual beliefs are concerned, there is some difference depending on the priest (and even within the church as such) but in general some disagreement wouldn't matter. For example there is no need to have anything to do with saints if it makes you uncomfortable. The Church does think saints are important but every person can chose how to implement them in their lives.

Thank you, that is very helpful information! I appreciate it!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

To me it just isn't a main issue. I am Catholic and have no problem with Mary and the saints but for me this isn't a hill to die on so to speak (I do realize I may not follow official doctrine). To me the main idea of Christianity is the love of God, the fact that he sent his son to save the world, the fact that we should love our neighbor (and that really means everyone, even our enemies), and to show mercy. Obviously, these are hard rules to live by but if we all tried the world would definitely be a better world (no matter whether there is a God or not).

 

As long as this is the main emphasis of a church I am absolutely fine with it. Obviously, everyone has personal preferences as to style of church etc. and these do matter. But the main deciding factor for me is the above. Whether we ask saints for interference, revere Mary etc. are to me mostly side issues.

That’s a great way to look at it!

 

 

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[bolt.]

Because communication with those who have died is so strongly prohibited in the Old Testament, and because there is no positive basis for it in the New Testament, yes, I personally would need explicit permission to feel comfortable with it.

I don't think there is a genuine comparison between consulting a medium (and/or practicing necromancy) and the spiritual activity of speaking to those who are in Christ 'on the other side'. I think that's about as sensible as comparing owning artistic sculpture with graven-image idolatry. The surface resemblance is not enough.

[LEOW3301]

I have no horse in this race and can’t help you decide between competing theologies, but to this point here I guess I would go by what those who profess the beliefs tell you about what it means and how it is approached rather than relying upon those who don’t have those beliefs and have a vested interest in being right on the matter tell you that x, y, or z is not right because it’s really a, b, and c.

 

Let them speak to their own beliefs and ask them to keep their opinions about the other to themselves. Get it straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

 

And now I am sadly out of horse metaphors.

That’s true! I am getting a good explanation about Catholicism here, so I’m appreciative!

 

 

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[bolt.]

Thank you for your explanation on Mary. It truly helps to see what other people believe and helps me, because I don’t truly understand Mary in the church. I just want to make sure I’m doing the right thing and also understanding everything biblically! I, too, don’t want to offend anyone and hope we can all stand in peace. Beautifully written and thank you for taking the time to write your beliefs! It helped me!

 

 

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I certainly hope that you aren't going to wait until you 'understand everything biblically' before you make this decision -- I assure you, greater minds than mine or yours have been working on that goal for centuries! (Without consensus.)

[LEOW3301]

If the leaders are Pharisees, it's hard for the organization they lead to function as a "church."

 

I think you are absolutely right to want church leadership to live out the Christian life. I'm sure you're allowing for flaws here and there, but if we're talking patterns of sin, then yeah. Keep looking.

Thank you! That’s exactly what I’m saying! :)

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

I certainly hope that you aren't going to wait until you 'understand everything biblically' before you make this decision -- I assure you, greater minds than mine or yours have been working on that goal for centuries! (Without consensus.)

Just trying to decide what religion would better suit my family and my beliefs....I’ve received a lot of help here and I’m very appreciative! :)

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

Oh, you are most welcome. This is an area where I continue to learn, myself. In the Orthodox faith, it is not so much about a dogma of Mary (or of the saints) but about relationship. If you want a relationship, you can enter in but no one can make you--same as in human relationships. The dogmas are all about Christ and the dogmas (that which must be believed) is just to protect the Truth so you know exactly whom you are relating TO. That is the most important reason for the dogma--it's not for arguing about, but so we can know Christ as He is and find salvation (which means different things in Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant worlds).

 

If you want to ask anything about Orthodox Christianity, you can PM me or scout around the social group, here: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/140-exploring-orthodox-christianity/

 

God be with you. :0) (and me, for that matter)

Thank you so much! I truly appreciate your help! I’ll look at that link!

God Bless!

 

 

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[ktgrok]

This site may be helpful - https://chnetwork.org/answers-to-questions/

[MercyA]

I don't think there is a genuine comparison between consulting a medium (and/or practicing necromancy) and the spiritual activity of speaking to those who are in Christ 'on the other side'. I think that's about as sensible as comparing owning artistic sculpture with graven-image idolatry. The surface resemblance is not enough.

 

Where in the Bible do we see positive examples of anyone speaking to human beings who have died? Sometimes when there is not an exact comparison to be found, it's useful to look for principles which may apply. Speaking to those who have died was a pagan practice, and I have no Scriptural reason to believe it is now approved of by God for Christians. YMMV.

 

In any case, my main concern is with the particular prayers being said, which I've already discussed in other posts. Taking titles rightfully belonging to Christ and applying them to Mary goes too far.

Edited November 17, 2017 by MercyA

[LEOW3301]

This site may be helpful - https://chnetwork.org/answers-to-questions/

Thank you!!!! That site looks very informational and I hope to find all of my answers there! Thank you!!!

 

 

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[MercyA]

Another link for you, OP:

www.gotquestions.org

 

:)

 

ETA: Bowing out now. The rest of you can have at it.  ;)

Edited November 17, 2017 by MercyA

[brehon]

That’s what I am not really understanding. I guess I don’t understand Mary and the true sense of it. I’m only hearing what others try to tell me that are against Catholicism.

 

 

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Hugs, OP. I’m sure this is a difficult time for you. If you are interested in (re)learning about the Church and what she teaches, I’d recommend first and foremost “The Catechism of the Catholic Churchâ€. It’s a bit of a tome, admittedly, however, it’s the Church’s teachings from the Church herself.

 

Alternatively, if you don’t feel up to the CCC, maybe try the Baltimore Catechism and/or “A Course in Religion†by Fr. John Laux. Both of these are 5-6 volumes, but are geared to kids/teens and are very helpful in explaining the Mass, Catholic beliefs, teachings, etc. We use both of these with our kids, especially in their Sacrament years (FHC & Confirmation).

[eternalsummer]

So, if some bible studies are being led by 'adult children of the pastor' -- the family connection seems really relevant to you. As adults, if they are leaders and teachers in a congregation they should be doing that because they are qualified and effective. They don't become teachers because of who raised them.

 

So, I'm wondering: would it be such a serious issue if 'some people who lead bible study sometimes' have the habit of affirming a 'party line' position on alcohol, -- even if they are experimenting with what they really believe about alcohol when they think they might be unobserved? I think that's a pretty normal part of the process of changing your mind or questioning things.

 

As a leader, you don't always put your uncertainty or controversial opinions on display in formal settings. Sometimes you just say, "I've been thinking about that, but right now I think the standard answer is wisest." On the other hand, you also don't go ahead and live a completely double life. That's not a solid basis for being a leader.

 

People might be able to say these things about me. When I teach in my role as an adjunct prof at my local bible college, I affirm the statement of faith, and I don't speak of my own opinions if they differ and/or question elements of that statement -- especially if I'm not yet sure. In other, less formal settings, you might hear me muse positively on the other side of various hot topics.

 

I suppose there may be hypocrisy there, and maybe I should examine myself better... but I don't think it makes me a failure as a Christian.

 

 

Yes, I think that is pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

 

Now, if you or these adult children leaders were to say, the teaching of our church/faith is x (instead of "I believe x" or "imperative x"), that would be different.

 

It is the difference in saying, "It is wrong to consume alcohol" or "I believe it is wrong to consume alcohol" while consuming alcohol and saying, "The First Church of Christ in Waterloo (or whatever) teaches that it is wrong to consume alcohol.  They base that teaching on these passages...etc."

[barnwife]

I tried to message you, but it’s saying disabled and I can’t figure it out. So this is what I was going to send you.

 

Hi!

I’m taking you up on the questions! Lol

I basically left to please my husband, too.

Then going to the Baptist Church, well that confused me more. They basically said I would’ve gone to hell, etc etc. that we worshipped Mary, calling the priest Father was against the Bible, Catholics aren’t saved, purgatory not being mentioned in the Bible, and also confession wasn’t biblical, because it says go through no man but our Father in the Bible. All of that I was brainwashed into believing their way of thinking and now am totally confused!! I miss going to mass, but everything they told me above is in my head now.

Thanks for your advice, btw!

 

 

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I haven't read all responses, so forgive me if I am repeating things. (I don't have a ton of time tonight.)

But, I am Catholic.  And for some of your questions, you might want to look into "A Minute in the Church" by Gus Lloyd. (There's at least 2 in the series.) The first one has mini-sermons (for that's what they are) on "call no man father" and "honoring Mary." To paraphrase his "Call no Man Father" mini-sermon, if Catholics too Matthew 23:9 literally, we couldn't even call our bio dads "dad." He ties in other verses (1 Cor 4:15 and Romans 4:16-17) that show that shouldn't be taken literally. And it ends:

 

It's clear that St. Paul knew exactly what Jesus meant...not to attribute the Fatherhood of God to any man. So the next time you see a priest, why not say, "Thanks, Father, for guiding your spiritual children." (The preceding excerpt isfrom the first volume of the book mentioned above.)

 

The first volume of Lloyd's also covers your concerns about confession and purgatory.

 

Sorry for the disjointed reply, but I have things to do now. I'll try to get back and give short answers to your other concerns later.

[milovany]

I have appreciated this conversation today, thank you to those who have partaken. I, too, have learned some things.  I do admit that it's difficult for me at this juncture in my life to fathom how we can accept the Scriptures from the early church fathers, but not the things they themselves believed and practiced.  How -- or better yet, why -- would they allow into the canon of Scripture words or concepts that would condemn what they themselves practiced? The same bishops that gathered the writings and canonized the Scriptures over time venerated Mary, asked her to intercede for them, and called her blessed. The church was pretty fairly united back then. There weren't some Christians over here doing and believing one thing and some over there doing pretty different things and another further afield coming up with their own way of worshiping God; I've heard the concept of some secret remnant keeping things pure, but history doesn't bear that out.  There wasn't one group giving us the Scriptures, having non-liturgical services, and receiving communion as a symbolic gesture while another was venerating Mary, honoring the saints, and serving Divine Liturgies where they received the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, and yet another sort of making things up as they felt led by the Spirit. No, there was unity for the most part until the schism* and historical texts make pretty clear what the beliefs and practices of the early church were. Which just brings me back to the original point I made above -- the Scriptures came from bishops who were highly liturgical, who called the Theotokos (God-bearer) blessed, who venerated saints and icons, and who believed that the bread and wine became the literal Body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.  

 

That was the sticking point for me anyway when we were deciding which route to traverse: What was the early church like and does that church still exist today?  Please forgive if I have offended anyone. 

 

*I'm obviously speaking very broadly here as there were some minor schisms, some smaller disagreements within the church (some of which eventually did grow into ones big enough to split the church into East and West), and of course people who did walk away from the Church for different beliefs; but it was nothing like what we see in Christianity today.

Edited November 17, 2017 by milovany

[Peaceseeker]

I wanted to add on one point about Mary that really helped me understand her role. Mary symbolizes the church. She was the first person who experienced Christ's salvation as he was literally inside her, coming to save all of us. She represents all of us who need Christ inside us as well.

 

I was raised Catholic but always struggled understanding Mary's role as well. Interestingly, my husband, raised Southern Baptist, did not blink an eye at any of the Mary doctrines while we were were studying and considering Eastern Orthodoxy. He said it was simple enough to him that Christ would honor his mother as well as his father. It was in the ten commandments.

 

Veneration and worship are two different things, and God knows each person's heart. As for intercession, we ask for those type of prayers continually from each other here in the Church militant on earth. Catholics and Orthodox also ask for those intercessions from the Church triumphant in heaven. If we are all one in Christ who has conquered the grave, then any of us can pray for each other, on earth and in heaven. It's not communicating with the dead if they are alive in Christ. And asking Mary to pray for you is not the same as praying to her. It's more like praying together.

 

I know not everyone understands or agrees with these doctrines. But I have been on a similar journey trying to find a church for the last year and I thought I would share. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ wherever they stand on these issues and whatever denomination they attend.

Edited November 17, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming

[eternalsummer]

I've thought for a long time that the side of Christianity that elevates Mary reflects the nature of the world as masculine and feminine, correlating with the yin and the yang or the idea of god and goddess in older religions, or maybe the idea of shekinah in Judaism (as explained through the Kabbalah).  

 

It seems like only modern Christianity is wholly male-dominated in terms of the elevation of the masculine to divine or semi-divine (whatever you want to call Mary) roles; I thought originally that Islam was too, but on googling it seems that Allah is conceived of as having no gender, and is referred to as male as a grammatical construct.

[Peaceseeker]

From the Orthodox perspective (as I understand it) it is not about male and female, but about the divine and the human. Mary represents our humanity made holy and righteous by Christ's divine presence.

Edited November 17, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming

[milovany]

I have said, eternalsummer, that I have never felt so valued as a woman, when it comes to church, than I do in the Orthodox Church.  Even though we seem patriarchal because of our all-male priesthood, seeing those priests all honor the Theotokos and other female saints with deep reverence speaks volumes. They love her and know they, as males, could not fulfill the role she played in establishing the church, and they look up to her as she points us toward her Son. In a related way, I think, I've seen priests submit to the abbess of a monastery when she shares her thoughts and wisdom and opinions.  

 

I know we've veered off topic a bit, but it's very close to my heart.  Forgive me. OP, for moving away from your original questions.  

 

ETA: Just read CaliforniaDreaming's post and love that perspective.    

Edited November 17, 2017 by milovany

[LEOW3301]

Another link for you, OP:

www.gotquestions.org

 

:)

 

ETA: Bowing out now. The rest of you can have at it. ;)

Thank you! :)

 

 

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[Peaceseeker]

Mary is also referred to as the New Eve in Orthodoxy, just as Christ is the New Adam, so there is some male/female referencing there I guess. The world awaited a savior but first we had to say yes to God- free will and all. Her cooperation was essential to salvation, because God doesn't force himself on us. Mary represents us saying yes to God. Salvation is freely offered, but we have to accept the gift.

 

So as Adam and Eve brought sin and death into the world (through their free will and choices) and broke the relationship between God and humanity, Mary and Christ restore the right relationship between the human and the divine (through their free will and choices).

 

Orthodoxy has really beautiful theology along with a beautiful liturgy. All said with the disclaimer that I am not even Orthodox yet, merely a seeker. There is a lot of depth and symbolism that I can't even begin to explain in the ancient church and I am certainly no expert at all. But I have sought a lot of answers about Mary and the saints on my journey and this is my understanding so far.

Edited November 17, 2017 by CaliforniaDreaming

[LEOW3301]

Hugs, OP. I’m sure this is a difficult time for you. If you are interested in (re)learning about the Church and what she teaches, I’d recommend first and foremost “The Catechism of the Catholic Churchâ€. It’s a bit of a tome, admittedly, however, it’s the Church’s teachings from the Church herself.

 

Alternatively, if you don’t feel up to the CCC, maybe try the Baltimore Catechism and/or “A Course in Religion†by Fr. John Laux. Both of these are 5-6 volumes, but are geared to kids/teens and are very helpful in explaining the Mass, Catholic beliefs, teachings, etc. We use both of these with our kids, especially in their Sacrament years (FHC & Confirmation).

I’ll look those up and check them out!

Thank you for the references!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

I haven't read all responses, so forgive me if I am repeating things. (I don't have a ton of time tonight.)

But, I am Catholic. And for some of your questions, you might want to look into "A Minute in the Church" by Gus Lloyd. (There's at least 2 in the series.) The first one has mini-sermons (for that's what they are) on "call no man father" and "honoring Mary." To paraphrase his "Call no Man Father" mini-sermon, if Catholics too Matthew 23:9 literally, we couldn't even call our bio dads "dad." He ties in other verses (1 Cor 4:15 and Romans 4:16-17) that show that shouldn't be taken literally. And it ends:

 

It's clear that St. Paul knew exactly what Jesus meant...not to attribute the Fatherhood of God to any man. So the next time you see a priest, why not say, "Thanks, Father, for guiding your spiritual children." (The preceding excerpt isfrom the first volume of the book mentioned above.)

 

The first volume of Lloyd's also covers your concerns about confession and purgatory.

 

Sorry for the disjointed reply, but I have things to do now. I'll try to get back and give short answers to your other concerns later.

That’s great! Thank you for taking the time to respond and answer my questions! I will look that up and check it out!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

I have appreciated this conversation today, thank you to those who have partaken. I, too, have learned some things. I do admit that it's difficult for me at this juncture in my life to fathom how we can accept the Scriptures from the early church fathers, but not the things they themselves believed and practiced. How -- or better yet, why -- would they allow into the canon of Scripture words or concepts that would condemn what they themselves practiced? The same bishops that gathered the writings and canonized the Scriptures over time venerated Mary, asked her to intercede for them, and called her blessed. The church was pretty fairly united back then. There weren't some Christians over here doing and believing one thing and some over there doing pretty different things and another further afield coming up with their own way of worshiping God; I've heard the concept of some secret remnant keeping things pure, but history doesn't bear that out. There wasn't one group giving us the Scriptures, having non-liturgical services, and receiving communion as a symbolic gesture while another was venerating Mary, honoring the saints, and serving Divine Liturgies where they received the Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, and yet another sort of making things up as they felt led by the Spirit. No, there was unity for the most part until the schism* and historical texts make pretty clear what the beliefs and practices of the early church were. Which just brings me back to the original point I made above -- the Scriptures came from bishops who were highly liturgical, who called the Theotokos (God-bearer) blessed, who venerated saints and icons, and who believed that the bread and wine became the literal Body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

 

That was the sticking point for me anyway when we were deciding which route to traverse: What was the early church like and does that church still exist today? Please forgive if I have offended anyone.

 

*I'm obviously speaking very broadly here as there were some minor schisms, some smaller disagreements within the church (some of which eventually did grow into ones big enough to split the church into East and West), and of course people who did walk away from the Church for different beliefs; but it was nothing like what we see in Christianity today.

 

Thanks for taking the time to post this! Exactly my questions and what I’ve wondered, too!

I’ve learned a lot, too, and am grateful to all who’ve taken the time to post their beliefs and answers to my questions!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

I wanted to add on one point about Mary that really helped me understand her role. Mary symbolizes the church. She was the first person who experienced Christ's salvation as he was literally inside her, coming to save all of us. She represents all of us who need Christ inside us as well.

 

I was raised Catholic but always struggled understanding Mary's role as well. Interestingly, my husband, raised Southern Baptist, did not blink an eye at any of the Mary doctrines while we were were studying and considering Eastern Orthodoxy. He said it was simple enough to him that Christ would honor his mother as well as his father. It was in the ten commandments.

 

Veneration and worship are two different things, and God knows each person's heart. As for intercession, we ask for those type of prayers continually from each other here in the Church militant on earth. Catholics and Orthodox also ask for those intercessions from the Church triumphant in heaven. If we are all one in Christ who has conquered the grave, then any of us can pray for each other, on earth and in heaven. It's not communicating with the dead if they are alive in Christ. And asking Mary to pray for you is not the same as praying to her. It's more like praying together.

 

I know not everyone understands or agrees with these doctrines. But I have been on a similar journey trying to find a church for the last year and I thought I would share. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ wherever they stand on these issues and whatever denomination they attend.

 

That was wonderfully written! Thank you for taking the time to post that information and give me another way of underestimating Mary. I never thought of it in that way, but have a better understanding now. Thank you!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

I've thought for a long time that the side of Christianity that elevates Mary reflects the nature of the world as masculine and feminine, correlating with the yin and the yang or the idea of god and goddess in older religions, or maybe the idea of shekinah in Judaism (as explained through the Kabbalah).

 

It seems like only modern Christianity is wholly male-dominated in terms of the elevation of the masculine to divine or semi-divine (whatever you want to call Mary) roles; I thought originally that Islam was too, but on googling it seems that Allah is conceived of as having no gender, and is referred to as male as a grammatical construct.

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing that information!

 

 

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[J-rap]

I know what it's like to live in a small town and not have many options!  In the past though, we've lived in major metro areas and attended quite a smattering of churches over the years.   :)  My dh grew up in a very Irish Catholic church, and I grew up in a Lutheran church.  We've also attended Methodist, Baptist, several non-denominational churches, and now another kind of non-denominational church that leans toward anabaptism. 

 

Why has your dh given up on church altogether?  Is it still important to him?  (You don't really need to answer that, I'm just asking questions for you to think about.)  And what denominations are in your town?

 

I do agree with some others that a Lutheran church might be a nice compromise.  It holds some of the traditions that also exist in the Catholic church,  and even some of their liturgy is the same.  At the same time, it remains a Protestant church and your dh would probably feel comfortable there.  That said, Lutheran churches seem to vary a lot!  Some are more about tradition and others have a really strong Bible focus.  

 

The Methodist church too can vary a lot.  We attended one for several years with a preacher who was really amazing.  

 

The church we attend now is very anti-religion in a way.  It isn't about rules and doing things just right.  We go because we like the pastor so much.  He is very smart and very humble.  

 

But, I think you and your dh need to think about what's important to you.  In the end, I don't believe the main point needs to about rules and doctrine, unless you like that and it's important or helpful to you of course.  For some people, I think those things can be more of a turn-off (maybe with your dh?).  So what's most important to you?  Do you want one with challenging sermons?  Or with an outward/servant focus?  Or with a good youth group?  Or more of an orthodox style?  I don't think there's a right or wrong.  As Christians, we all live our faith differently and that's okay.  I guess the main thing is how can Christ best "be" -- in me and through me.  What kind of atmosphere best encourages me to live a life of love?

 

So, in what kind of church is God able to act through you, best?

[LEOW3301]

Mary is also referred to as the New Eve in Orthodoxy, just as Christ is the New Adam, so there is some male/female referencing there I guess. The world awaited a savior but first we had to say yes to God- free will and all. Her cooperation was essential to salvation, because God doesn't force himself on us. Mary represents us saying yes to God. Salvation is freely offered, but we have to accept the gift.

 

So as Adam and Eve brought sin and death into the world (through their free will and choices) and broke the relationship between God and humanity, Mary and Christ restore the right relationship between the human and the divine (through their free will and choices).

 

Orthodoxy has really beautiful theology along with a beautiful liturgy. All said with the disclaimer that I am not even Orthodox yet, merely a seeker. There is a lot of depth and symbolism that I can't even begin to explain in the ancient church and I am certainly no expert at all. But I have sought a lot of answers about Mary and the saints on my journey and this is my understanding so far.

 

I never thought of it that way! That helps me understand her better, as well as explaining it to my husband, too. I’ve learned a lot about Mary and the church from reading everybody’s responses and feel now I am better informed to explain it to him and maybe that’ll help him, too, to understand the church. Thank you for your post!

 

 

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[LEOW3301]

I know what it's like to live in a small town and not have many options! In the past though, we've lived in major metro areas and attended quite a smattering of churches over the years. :) My dh grew up in a very Irish Catholic church, and I grew up in a Lutheran church. We've also attended Methodist, Baptist, several non-denominational churches, and now another kind of non-denominational church that leans toward anabaptism.

 

Why has your dh given up on church altogether? Is it still important to him? (You don't really need to answer that, I'm just asking questions for you to think about.) And what denominations are in your town?

 

I do agree with some others that a Lutheran church might be a nice compromise. It holds some of the traditions that also exist in the Catholic church, and even some of their liturgy is the same. At the same time, it remains a Protestant church and your dh would probably feel comfortable there. That said, Lutheran churches seem to vary a lot! Some are more about tradition and others have a really strong Bible focus.

 

The Methodist church too can vary a lot. We attended one for several years with a preacher who was really amazing.

 

The church we attend now is very anti-religion in a way. It isn't about rules and doing things just right. We go because we like the pastor so much. He is very smart and very humble.

 

But, I think you and your dh need to think about what's important to you. In the end, I don't believe the main point needs to about rules and doctrine, unless you like that and it's important or helpful to you of course. For some people, I think those things can be more of a turn-off (maybe with your dh?). So what's most important to you? Do you want one with challenging sermons? Or with an outward/servant focus? Or with a good youth group? Or more of an orthodox style? I don't think there's a right or wrong. As Christians, we all live our faith differently and that's okay. I guess the main thing is how can Christ best "be" -- in me and through me. What kind of atmosphere best encourages me to live a life of love?

 

So, in what kind of church is God able to act through you, best?

Your post was great! You’ve given me a lot of information to discuss with him!

He would attend a church, if he could agree with their rules, etc.

I shouldn’t say he’s given up, just given up on religion. We’ve been studying the scriptures together at home every night as a family. I just want something more. Thanks for taking the time to write all of this out. I’ll share it with him and it’ll be a guide for us to think about for churches. You’ve given me facts to think about!

We’ve tried Methodist, but it wasn’t his style. We will have to look into the Lutheran Church.

Thank you!

 

 

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[Liz CA]

CS Lewis made an interesting statement that crystallized something for me.  He said (better than I will say it) that we go to church not to find a place that agrees with what we believe, but to learn what a Christian is to believe.  (And do.). Like I said, he said it better.  

 

I got worn out thinking that it was all up to me to be the correct one.  Oh yeah, *I'm* the one God chose to get it all right, in the face of two thousand years of people who gave their ALL (their lives, their treasure, much better brains, their livelihood) to Christ.  (I might sprain my eyes, rolling them at myself here...). So the question became, not "What do I believe?" but "Who can I trust to be my teacher?"  Ultimately, it will come down to "What is the Church?"  And at some point, yeah, you have to rest into it, and probably change some of the things you believe.  You have to find the teacher you can trust.  I sure learned THAT in some difficult ways.

 

That's largely how I ended up Orthodox.  I wrote it all out once at the request of a priest and it was 13 pages long (much to his dismay) and so I guess this is the short version of the short version.  :0)

 

(I grew up Methodist, was Baptist for 3 years, and Presbyterian for 30.)  Just coming into my 10th year as Eastern Orthodox.

 

Not to derail LEOW's post - and I could google if I wasn't so lazy - but what is tenet of the Presbyterian Church? Extended family members are attending there but I have not had a chance to discuss it with them. I always find this interesting - not in a judging way - but just interesting.

 

I finally came to realize that the church is full of people and as we know they are all sinners but it would be so nice if we could find a place without sin here on earth. I think I was looking for this so long until I finally figured out it's not here, this side of heaven. :) So, just musing what the Presbyterians are all about.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Liz CA

[Bluegoat]

With regards to Mary, and certain other teachings in the early Church:  it's very helpful to remember that in many cases, they were formulated in relation to, or response to, certain controversies or historical questions.  The title Mother of God, for example, comes out of affirming Christ's unity - if his Godhood and manhood were in fact a unity, you can't actually deny Mary is the mother of God, not just somehow the fleshly mother.  And then the question is - what does that really mean?  What are the implications?

 

With regards to non-denominational groups (I always want to say non-denominational denominations) I think a real limitation in many cases, and a danger, is that there is not much in the way of accountability in the leadership.  Some congregations do a good job finding really qualified people, making sure they are doing a good job, making sure the leaders have good spiritual care and oversight.  That their teaching is solid, informed, etc.

 

But those are not easy things to do, especially for a small group, and it is easy for them to be done poorly or not at all.  Even large organizations with a lot of accountability fail at times.

 

 

[ktgrok]

This book might be helpful for you: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Tiber-Evangelical-Protestants-Historical/dp/0898705770/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1510922490&sr=1-1&keywords=crossing+tiber

 

Or this one: https://www.amazon.com/Surprised-Truth-Converts-Biblical-Historical/dp/0964261081/ref=pd_bxgy_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=HCB4J8B8JHFG21XPBKGV&dpID=515WkRufUKL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=detail

[Jennifer132]

I tried to message you, but it’s saying disabled and I can’t figure it out. So this is what I was going to send you.

 

Hi!

I’m taking you up on the questions! Lol

I basically left to please my husband, too.

Then going to the Baptist Church, well that confused me more. They basically said I would’ve gone to hell, etc etc. that we worshipped Mary, calling the priest Father was against the Bible, Catholics aren’t saved, purgatory not being mentioned in the Bible, and also confession wasn’t biblical, because it says go through no man but our Father in the Bible. All of that I was brainwashed into believing their way of thinking and now am totally confused!! I miss going to mass, but everything they told me above is in my head now.

Thanks for your advice, btw!

 

 

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I highly recommend Born Fundamental, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. It will answer all the questions you've mentioned here, plus more. As a Catholic convert, I believe the Church would be delighted to see you back again. I'll say a prayer for you today.

[Carol in Cal.]

If you decide to look at Lutheran churches, based on what you have said I think you would fit in with LCMS or WELS ones but not with ELCA ones.  The ELCA is much more liberal in their theologies and views of Scripture than the others.

 

Another book for you:  "Catholic, Lutheran, Protestant:  A Doctrinal Comparison of Three Christian Confessions"

[LEOW3301]

I highly recommend Born Fundamental, Born Again Catholic by David Currie. It will answer all the questions you've mentioned here, plus more. As a Catholic convert, I believe the Church would be delighted to see you back again. I'll say a prayer for you today.

Great, I will look that book up! Thank you, and I could definitely use that prayer! :)

Thanks again!!!

 

 

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