Question for Progymnasmata Method users--The RESEARCH paper

[TheAttachedMama]

I recently switched to using a full core from Memoria Press....and I really like it.   However, I am a little apprehensive about their writing program (classical composition) which uses the progymnasmata exercises for teaching writing.  I can see how these exercises might produce children who are really good thinkers and have good/worthwhile thoughts to write about.   

 

 However, I also feel like kids need to know how to do basic research papers before graduating.  That seems like a common assignment given out in high school and college.   Am I wrong?   Do any of the progymnasmata programs teach this?   

 

I asked over on the Memoria Press message board, and they seem very dismissive of the need to teach this.   They argue that the most important thing to do is raise kids who are good communicators.   (The "form" part of writing can be easily taught they say.)   I agree with that point of view to a certain extent.  I would have no problem explaining the 5 paragraph essay for example....but I feel like research papers are a different matter.

 

It seems like there is a lot of skill that needs to be practiced when it comes to researching a topic through multiple references, avoiding plagiarism, citing references, and making a bibliography.    I'm not even sure that I understand all of these skills!  (For example, is it enough to rephrase something in your own words?  Or is that even plagiarism?)  

 

I am toying around the idea of still using the progymnasmata exercises during the  majority of the year, but then assigning them a research paper (in science or history) for a few weeks of the year (and pausing our classical composition assignments).   Do you think this would work?  (A "once per year" research assignment in history of science?)

 

If so, Can anyone recommend a good book or source for teaching a research paper if I did this?  I did a quick search on Rainbow Resource and these books came up:

http://www.rainbowresource.com/searchspring.php?q=research+paper

 

What do you think of this plan?   Or would it be better to just do Writing with Skill instead of classical composition.  (Does WWS teach research papers?)

 

Sorry this is so rambling.   Thank you to anyone who made it to the bottom of my post! ;) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

I think your plan is good. I struggle with this part of the progymnasmata too. I don't know of an isolated resource offhand for the research paper, but I'd love to find a good one. WWS does teach how to write a research paper and avoid plagiarism, etc.

[8filltheheart]

I am completely unfamiliar with MP's program, but do they really not have high school students writing essays? Essays typically require research, supporting evidence, citations, and biblio page. If students have mastered writing essays across subjects, it is not a difficult leap to a standard research paper (though I don't know how standard writing a research paper is in college. Far more common is an assignment researching/supporting/arguing/persuading a position, comparing/contrasting some sort of cultural/political/literary aspect or positions on various science topics, etc)

Edited November 16, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[TheAttachedMama]

I am completely unfamiliar with MP's program, but do they really not have high school students writing essays? Essays typically require research, supporting evidence, citations, and biblio page. If students have mastered writing essays across subjects, it is not a difficult leap to a standard research paper (though I don't know how standard writing a research paper is in college. Far more common is an assignment researching/supporting/arguing/persuading a position, comparing/contrasting some sort of cultural/political/literary aspect or positions on various science topics, etc)

 

I am admitting that I just had to look up the exact difference between an essay and a research paper.  (blushing and laughing at myself)   This is NOT my area of expertise, and I obviously need a lot of guidance when it comes to teaching writing.   I just hope I don't mess things up too badly with my kids. :)   

 

I also have no idea what type of writing is typically asked of college students.   

 

I am going to ask your question over on the memoria press forum and see how they respond.   

 

I believe they are writing essays....lots and lots and lots of papers "....researching/supporting/arguing/persuading a position, comparing/contrasting some sort of cultural/political/literary aspect or positions on various science topics, etc" as you said.   :)  I believe that that is typically what is done in all progymnasmata programs....lots and lots of defending positions, or written persuasions, etc.    

 

So if they are writing essays, are they also learning how to properly cite materials?   (Thinking out loud so I can go and ask the experts over there.)  

[eagleynne]

I saw your post over on the MP forum but I wanted to let people with more experience teaching Classical Composition have a chance to answer your question. Since they haven't I'll give it a shot.

 

In my experience as a college student and teacher I've found that there are at least 2 main skills needed for students to be able to write good research papers. First, they need to be able to come up with a strong thesis and then be able to write solid supporting paragraphs for it. Second, they need to be able to conduct high-quality research in a variety of areas.

 

Teaching research skills isn't that hard. There are some really good books out there that explain the HOW and the WHY of research techniques. That is one of the main skills taught in first year college composition classes.

 

Harder to teach are the writing skills themselves. How do you come up with something to say? How do you structure your paper? What should you include and why? How do you keep your reader interested in your writing? All those types of skills. Those are the skills that Classical Composition teaches really well. I could teach any typical student the research skills they would need for their first year of college in one semester, but teaching them how to write well takes years and a lot of practice.

 

I think your plan of requiring some research essays or papers during their schooling is a good idea. It would give them a chance to show off their writing skills while they also learned how to do research and how to properly cite their work. I'm including some suggestions for resources you might find helpful below. I hope this has been helpful to you.

 

They Say, I Say: The Moves that Matter in Academic Writing:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/They-Say-Matter-Academic-Writing/dp/0393617432/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1510853880&sr=8-1&keywords=they+say+i+say+the+moves+that+matter+in+academic+writing+3rd+edition&dpID=5102Yl2xBBL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

 

Schaum's Quick Guide to Writing Great Research Papers:

 

https://smile.amazon.com/Schaums-Quick-Writing-Research-Papers/dp/0071488480/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1510854086&sr=1-1&keywords=schaum%27s+quick+guide+to+writing+great+research+papers&dpID=51hVJ9n03VL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

 

Purdue Online Writing Lab: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/

[nixpix5]

I agree with your concern. We are going to work through the progym because I see it as superior writing instruction but I will simultaneously teach MLA and APA format research paper writing. That is not a hurdle I want my kids to have to jump in college. I am sure the classical instruction will form a young person who easily grasps it in college if need be, but it isn't hard to teach so why not just do it in high school.

Edited November 16, 2017 by nixpix5

[8filltheheart]

I am admitting that I just had to look up the exact difference between an essay and a research paper.  (blushing and laughing at myself)   This is NOT my area of expertise, and I obviously need a lot of guidance when it comes to teaching writing.   I just hope I don't mess things up too badly with my kids. :)   

 

I also have no idea what type of writing is typically asked of college students.   

 

I am going to ask your question over on the memoria press forum and see how they respond.   

 

I believe they are writing essays....lots and lots and lots of papers "....researching/supporting/arguing/persuading a position, comparing/contrasting some sort of cultural/political/literary aspect or positions on various science topics, etc" as you said.    :)  I believe that that is typically what is done in all progymnasmata programs....lots and lots of defending positions, or written persuasions, etc.    

 

So if they are writing essays, are they also learning how to properly cite materials?   (Thinking out loud so I can go and ask the experts over there.)  

 

I would take your link and not think of it in such distinct terms.  Lots of assignments are research-based essays vs. thinking in terms of the "research paper" that is x pages long.  For example, a comparative essay on the formation of Greek vs. Roman gov'ts technically meets that links definition of a "research paper," but the assignment could very well be assigned as an essay assignment.  And I absolutely disagree that essays are short and typically 5 paragraphs.  That would probably be a ps definition of an essay, but certainly some of the most brilliant essays students study defy that criteria.  (For example, Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal is classified as an essay and is most definitely not defined in terms of 5 paragraph essay.)

 

You might want to look through this text that is viewable online. http://www.mtcarmelacademy.net/uploads/1/1/7/5/11752808/patterns_for_college_writing_laurie_g_kriszner_12th_edition.compressed.pdf  (I personally love this text and have used it with 2 of my high schoolers.)

Edited November 16, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[teachermom2834]

I do not have a fully informed opinion on Classical Composition or the method because I am just in the first level with my 4th grader.

 

However, my 9th grade ds, who has not used Memoria Press before is in a history course through their online academy. I am pretty hands off but he is writing a lot of essays requiring a clear thesis and supporting evidence and sources. I guess it is more of a research essay than a full blown long research paper but I think the skills are being used.

 

My oldest two sons have taken the second Freshman Comp class at our local private university dual enrollment (having ACT scores to test out of the first one). This course walked the students step by step through the research paper process. My oldest had a similar required English course at the college he attends for undergrad.

 

A student who had a strong background in writing would probably easily pick up research paper writing skills. If you like Classical Composition I wouldn't worry about this skill being lacking. If you make it through all of Classical Composition I bet research paper writing would be a very manageable transition.

[EmseB]

When you get to the upper levels of CC there is research involved about historical figures, authors of quotes, times they were said, who agreed, who didn't, etc. You could add on more requirements to their writing within that program to align more with a research paper. I have MP's Scarlet Letter study guide as well and there is definitely at least one essay requirement in there. It would be easy to require it as APA style and require some outside sources or however you wanted to do it.

 

As an aside, I did plenty of papers in high school but didn't learn APA or MLA formats until I attended college as a non-traditional student later in life. It really was not that hard with all of the online resources available nowadays. I'm not saying you shouldn't teach it, but to me it was just formatting requirements. And there were many people in all my classes who could nail the technical aspects of formatting and style, but we're not able to put a cogent argument down on paper to save their life.

[Rosika]

I assign a Senior Thesis Project. My goal is to tie together everything they've learned in their progym, theology, and logic/rhetoric studies PLUS to add in a standard school research paper assignment. I want them to have at least one complete run through of that before they hit college. 

 

I give them the entire year to complete it, but I only count it as a semester credit. They're allowed to pick any topic of interest, subject to my approval (of the topic, not of the thesis.) I give them benchmarks to attain throughout the year, and these are graded. 

 

By October I need a working thesis topic and the name of a mentor to help them with the subject (not the assignment.) By November I need four academic sources, marked up. By December I need two theological sources and Bible/CCC support sources, marked up. By January I need a rough outline. By February, a final outline. By March the paper is due. It should be 10-15 pages plus Works Cited.

 

By April I need the name of who they're inviting to sit on their panel, and confirmation that each panelist has received a copy of the academic paper. Other panelists are me (representing school), their mentor (representing academic expert of their topic), priest/deacon/church adult (representing theological expert), and an adult of their choice (e.g., grandparent, scout leader, friend's parent, aunt/uncle, etc.)

 

In May they defend their thesis. PowerPoint is mandatory. Dressing up is mandatory. Presentations aren't timed, but should be at least 10-15 minutes. Following that, each panelist asks one question which the student will answer/defend. Each panelist grades the student on two things: (1) the panelist's expert contribution area (i.e., the priest grades on the thesis' theological aspects), and (2) overall presentation. Final grade is the average of all four panelists' grades, my grading of the academic paper, and the daily grades from benchmark assignments. 

 

So far, the progym has done a great job of preparing them to write the research papers. It's the technical stuff that they've needed help with, like MLA/APA styling and time management/organization for long-term projects!!! 

 

*This year my student chose: Capitalism is the superior economic system. I didn't grow up under this model and am not sure I agree, so I'm looking forward to his defense! He'll have to argue it from an academic perspective and a moral perspective (theology). His mentor is the economics teacher at a local private school his friend attends. 

[TheAttachedMama]

 

I do not have a fully informed opinion on Classical Composition or the method because I am just in the first level with my 4th grader.

 

However, my 9th grade ds, who has not used Memoria Press before is in a history course through their online academy. I am pretty hands off but he is writing a lot of essays requiring a clear thesis and supporting evidence and sources. I guess it is more of a research essay than a full blown long research paper but I think the skills are being used.

 

My oldest two sons have taken the second Freshman Comp class at our local private university dual enrollment (having ACT scores to test out of the first one). This course walked the students step by step through the research paper process. My oldest had a similar required English course at the college he attends for undergrad.

 

A student who had a strong background in writing would probably easily pick up research paper writing skills. If you like Classical Composition I wouldn't worry about this skill being lacking. If you make it through all of Classical Composition I bet research paper writing would be a very manageable transition.

 

 

I am brand new to Memoria Press too. I have noticed, even in 4th/5th grade, that there is a lot of writing assigned throughout the curriculum. The kids are actually constantly writing in various formats and in subjects. When I was first considering using CC this year, I thought it felt pretty light. 20 minutes a day in writing for a 5th grader? That didn't feel like enough. However, if you use the complete core you see that there is writing in most every other subject so the amount assigned in composition is just about perfect. I guess you are saying this trend continues in the upper grades too.

[Clear Creek]

Writing & Rhetoric (another progym curriculum) teaches how to write a research paper in book 7.