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Can you stand another math question? (1st grade)


libbypr
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We are currently using CLE Math 100.  We're on lesson 102 out of 170, and I actually really like it.  It's straight-forward, easy to teach, no prep, and it gets done.  My dd does well with it, but the problem is she hates it.  She's advanced in a lot of areas, but I suspect she's bored with the spiral approach to math.  She gets 100% on all tests and quizzes, and she knows the answers almost instantly.  But she whines, drags her feet, daydreams, and asks if we HAVE to do math today.  She tells me repeatedly that she hates math.

Now, obviously, I understand that not everything will be fun, and I'm all for character training and teaching that sometimes we have to do hard things.  

Having said that, I've been looking at Math Mammoth, and I really like what I see.  I've read many positive reviews, and I wonder if the conceptual math and mastery approach would be a better fit for her.  I don't want to be a curriculum hopper though.  

I just don't know if I should stick with CLE since I like it and it's obviously working, or if I should try to find something that's a better match for her.  (If it matters, she's my only homeschooled child... my older daughter is away at college).

Any advice?

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I agree with you that everything doesn't have to be fun, but honestly it sounds like she's at the wrong level and it's not working for her.  You wouldn't put a reader in beginning phonics, so why keep a child in a math program they already know?  What you like is really irrelevant unless you like working each individual problem.  Children learn best when they're challenged just enough

 

I'd copy the last test of the year and give it to her.  If she makes a 95% or better, I'd give her a placement exam for the program and see where she would be.

 

 

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I agree with you that everything doesn't have to be fun, but honestly it sounds like she's at the wrong level and it's not working for her.  You wouldn't put a reader in beginning phonics, so why keep a child in a math program they already know?  What you like is really irrelevant unless you like working each individual problem.  Children learn best when they're challenged just enough

 

I'd copy the last test of the year and give it to her.  If she makes a 95% or better, I'd give her a placement exam for the program and see where she would be.

 

:iagree: 

 

There is absolutely no reason to make her slog through first grade math if she has already mastered the concepts; that could easily be what is boring her rather than the particular curriculum or the spiral approach.  If you were to switch her to Math Mammoth 1, you could easily find yourself in the same boat if she still found the material too easy.

 

First I would assess whether there is anything in CLE 1 that she still needs to work on.  If so I would jump right to those lessons, and if not I would move on before she starts to see math as boring and tedious.

 

Second, I would try out some Math Mammoth to see how she responds.  My kids and I LOVE Math Mammoth, but there are plenty of families who can't stand the layout.  Fortunately, MM offers generous samples from each book, so it is easy to print out a couple lessons and see how she does.

 

When using MM, remember that most kids do not need to complete all the problems.  I normally have my kids do about half the simple arithmetic problems and all the word problems and puzzles.  That also allows me to make the program a bit more spiral by periodically having them go back and do some of the undone problems in previous chapters to make sure they still remember how.

 

Personally, for a mathy kid (of whom I have several), I would choose Math Mammoth (or Singapore, Rightstart, MEP or Miquon) over CLE.

 

Wendy

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I'd copy the last test of the year and give it to her. If she makes a 95% or better, I'd give her a placement exam for the program and see where she would be.

I agree. And if she tests out of gr 1 completely, then consider whether it's an issue with the program or the level. MM might be a better fit, but not automatically so.

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I found for my kids it wasn't so much a curriculum change that made a difference but rather me having to reflect on the point of each worksheet/textbook chapter, and then finding ways to approach it that they would enjoy. In grade 1, that means we do as many games and as few worksheets as possible. And if your daughter is advanced or understands everything easily, I think that's a good excuse to skip a whole chunk of the book and just play games to reinforce what she knows. (Some kids are overjoyed to be accelerated and get meatier problems, but I think it's totally normal that many 6 or 7 year olds aren't yet mature enough to face problems that push them a bit, and it's not a reflection of any character flaw or lack of ability-- they just don't have the confidence yet to struggle a little. Finding the "just right" between too easy and too hard for a 7 year old is something I still haven't figured out, and that's why when all else fails, I turn to games, living books, and more games. Getting it wrong just seems to make them "hate" math more.)

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I agree with having her test ahead, but I also wonder how long these lessons are taking. If she does it orally could she whip through a lesson in 5 - 10 minutes? If so, then she almost certainly needs something more challenging. You could compress 2 lessons into a day, doing 1 orally or switch to mm or beast academy. You could also replace some of the math facts with games. OTOH, maybe she is good at math, but dislikes the tedious work required in order to become automatic in arithmetic. If that is the case, the structure of cle might be something you want to keep. Although I love mm, the lack of a daily lesson plan can make it a headache to implement with a child who is willing to stare out the window for an hour rather than do two arithmetic problems. With cle you know where the end of the lesson is. It’s not negotiable, and the work is still going to be the same even if she spends an hour drawing clothes on all the numbers instead of doing the math.

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I agree with having her test ahead, but I also wonder how long these lessons are taking. If she does it orally could she whip through a lesson in 5 - 10 minutes? If so, then she almost certainly needs something more challenging. You could compress 2 lessons into a day, doing 1 orally or switch to mm or beast academy. You could also replace some of the math facts with games. OTOH, maybe she is good at math, but dislikes the tedious work required in order to become automatic in arithmetic. If that is the case, the structure of cle might be something you want to keep. Although I love mm, the lack of a daily lesson plan can make it a headache to implement with a child who is willing to stare out the window for an hour rather than do two arithmetic problems. With cle you know where the end of the lesson is. It’s not negotiable, and the work is still going to be the same even if she spends an hour drawing clothes on all the numbers instead of doing the math.

HAHA It's like you're in my house!  LOL  You pretty much just described our day.  If we do it orally, she could whip through the whole lesson in a MAX of 15 min (including flash cards & speed drills).  Yet, she's perfectly content to take an hour to answer a couple of simple problems, so she doodles or makes up songs or "just needs to give you a hug."  Today, we did a large chunk of CLE orally, and it went much more quickly and smoothly.  Somehow, I've convinced myself that it was cheating not to have her write the answers down (silly, I know).

 

In looking through CLE, there's still plenty of new material that she doesn't yet know (not a TON but enough to make it worthwhile to finish), but she's the kind of kid that I can show it to her once and she gets it.  I asked her today what the best part of math is, and she said, "When we get to learn new stuff."

 

So, I think I just need to change up some things and not be stuck in the "must do all the problems in the workbook" mindset. 

 

I should add that it isn't writing in general that she opposes.  Today, she voluntarily wrote a summary in her notebook after we read a story.  I did not ask her to.  It was just something she wanted to do.  It's just something about writing in math that she hates.

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Have you looked at Rod and Staff's math series? You can get free samples from the publisher by calling (606) 522-4348.

 

The first three levels are teacher dependent: you spend about, oh, 10 or 15 minutes teaching using the very excellent lessons in the teacher manual, and then you give your dc the seatwork, which is only about four pages (front and back of two sheets).

 

Here is a long review by a friend on another forum:

 

Rod and Staff is a traditional math program, more similar to the math programs used in the 50s and 60s to many of the programs used today. These were excellent math programs, and most would acknowledge that Americans were better at math when we used these traditional math programs than students are today who are using all of these programs that are emphasizing “conceptual understanding†every step of the way. Traditionally, math was taught with the classical model, where there was more emphasis on drill and memorization in the early years, with an increase in conceptual understanding or analysis occurring each year. R&S does teach conceptual understanding, but it is quite difficult to see until you are perhaps 2 or 3 months into the program because it is done in the early years with little baby steps.

 

The best example I can think of this is the instruction with fractions. My daughter’s understanding of fractions, now in the fourth grade, is absolutely wonderful. Rod and Staff began with the traditional dividing of shapes into halves and thirds and fourths in the second grade, and also advancing to two-thirds or three-fourths, and the idea the three-thirds or four-fourths equals one. In the third grade, they apply this knowledge to math in all types of contexts - what is one half of a foot, what is one-fourth of a pound, what is one-fourth of a dollar? What is three-fourths of a dollar? This is done pretty much, off and on in the daily lesson, all year long, and is seen in MANY word problems. My daughter really understood fractions and applying them to numbers and real problems.

 

Then you move to fourth grade, and they introduce counting by halves, by fourths, and by eighth, using a ruler as a visual aid at first. So they count 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4, 1 1/2, etc. and also 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 7/8, 1. After doing this exercise for several days, they do equivalent fractions, but it is almost not necessary to explain anything, because they have already figured out that 4/8 = 1/2 and that 2/8 = 1/4 because of the counting exercises. They just now learn the algorithm that shows that this same logic can apply to numbers which can’t be visualized, such as 27/36. By the time my daughter reached the lesson where they taught how add fractions, she already ‘understood’ that you could just add the numerators of like fractions, but that you couldn’t do that with a fractions like 1/8 + 1/4, but that you needed a common denominator. This understanding was about 2 months in the developing and it would have been difficult to see by just flipping through the book.

 

Somewhere around this general timeframe, they are also doing long division and giving remainders as an answer, but combining it with word problems so that it is obvious why the remainder is actually a fraction such as “3 boys share 4 peaches. How many peaches will each boy get? What part of the remaining peach will they get?†After a couple lessons with word problems like this, they have division problems where they are supposed to give their answer with the remainder as a fraction, and they are then introduced to the term “mixed numbers.â€

 

So, yes, I would say there is wonderful teaching in R&S that leads to conceptual understanding, it is just done in a different way than many modern math programs, and that it occurs very slowly in the lower grades. Because there is a strong emphasis in the primary grades on drill, particularly fact drill, people often get this misperception of R&S, especially if they look primarily at the student workbooks or text instead of at the TM. The real lesson and the real learning takes place in the daily lesson at the whiteboard. The workbook and/or textbook is mainly just review problems and/or drill.

 

I recommend that you read this article which is linked on The Mathematically Correct Web page by Dr. H. Wu called “Basic Skills Versus Conceptual Understanding: A False Dichotomy in Mathematics Education.†This article will help you understand why it is essential that students get plenty of drill and review as well as lessons that work towards conceptual understanding; and also why conceptual understanding can only get you so far - no one can visualize a problem such as 2/97 divided by 31/17; eventually a student must become fluent with the algorithms, which means to have them memorized to the point of automaticity. This only happens with drill and review.

 

One more thing, since you are currently using Singapore, I can compare it a little to that program. Singapore pushes conceptual understanding more than many math programs. It has some drill and review, and the assumption is that teachers in Singapore are providing much more drill and review, but this program pushes to the limit for conceptual understanding in the early grades. It doesn’t take small steps in this area, it wants total understanding in one lesson of some concept that R&S might spend two or three months developing. Additionally, Singapore wants them begin applying this new understanding immediately to problems and word problems. This is excellent for some children, especially the math-bright among us, but for many, it is too much too soon. My daughter needed the slow and steady approach of Rod and Staff for the primary years. I knew this, but I couldn’t really verbalize it, until I read the excellent review of Singapore math by Susan Wise Bauer of the Well-Trained Mind which you can find on her Web page.

 

 

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If she gets concepts that quick, you might consider something like Singapore/MIF or MEP for her.  We used MEP for a while and it really makes kids think.  I think we spent a full month on nothing but number bonds up to 3, but the puzzles and such made it a lot of fun and not just addition and subtraction.

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HAHA It's like you're in my house! LOL You pretty much just described our day. If we do it orally, she could whip through the whole lesson in a MAX of 15 min (including flash cards & speed drills). Yet, she's perfectly content to take an hour to answer a couple of simple problems, so she doodles or makes up songs or "just needs to give you a hug." Today, we did a large chunk of CLE orally, and it went much more quickly and smoothly. Somehow, I've convinced myself that it was cheating not to have her write the answers down (silly, I know).

 

In looking through CLE, there's still plenty of new material that she doesn't yet know (not a TON but enough to make it worthwhile to finish), but she's the kind of kid that I can show it to her once and she gets it. I asked her today what the best part of math is, and she said, "When we get to learn new stuff."

 

So, I think I just need to change up some things and not be stuck in the "must do all the problems in the workbook" mindset.

 

I should add that it isn't writing in general that she opposes. Today, she voluntarily wrote a summary in her notebook after we read a story. I did not ask her to. It was just something she wanted to do. It's just something about writing in math that she hates.

In that case, a mastery approach might be better. Give math mammoth a try. For 1st grade math facts, we really enjoyed using Giggle Math. If you have time to do that with her in place of the drill in cle it might change things around. You could say if she completes the other portions of her math in 20 minutes or less you will do giggle math instead of flash cards or speed drills.

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In looking through CLE, there's still plenty of new material that she doesn't yet know (not a TON but enough to make it worthwhile to finish), but she's the kind of kid that I can show it to her once and she gets it.  I asked her today what the best part of math is, and she said, "When we get to learn new stuff."

 

As to the bolded, are you saying that because she has never been explicitly taught those concepts, or because she has demonstrated that she doesn't yet know them?

 

My mathy kids often pick up new concepts through osmosis, ie their math program teaches telling time to the hour and half hour, and they immediately intuit and master telling time to the minute.  Therefore, I try not to guess at what they do or don't know.

 

Wendy

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As to the bolded, are you saying that because she has never been explicitly taught those concepts, or because she has demonstrated that she doesn't yet know them?

 

My mathy kids often pick up new concepts through osmosis, ie their math program teaches telling time to the hour and half hour, and they immediately intuit and master telling time to the minute.  Therefore, I try not to guess at what they do or don't know.

 

Wendy

That's a fair point, Wendy.  I haven't explicitly taught her these things, but I have not tested her on the topics either.  Maybe that needs to be my first order of business... just to see what she actually knows.

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She might not like MM any better. It's still b&w, still paper driven, still flat. Singapore would be a nice jump up. As Wendy says, she's probably inferring and making so many connections that she's bored, even though she needs to catch the little holes. There are other programs with better mathematical thinking, if you want to challenge her, or just scribe and pick up the pace if you want to stick with CLE. Since you have it, you might as well get through CLE faster, then see how that goes and decide your next step. I scribe for my gifted with SLDs ds. Lots of people scribe.

 

Also, try giving her some supplements to make her brain a bit more happy. When my dd was like that, I gave her brain challenging pages from the program (BJU's Stretch Your Mind pages, etc.). With my ds, I use printable ebooks from places like Carson-Dellosa, TeacherCreated, Evan-Moor, etc. They have TONS of great stuff. That would give her something to look forward to. We use them as reinforcement with my ds, because they're highly preferred. So he gets through the less preferred, maybe a little more boring stuff, and he gets to the good stuff.

 

Does she like hands-on? The Using the Standards Measurement books include lots of activities where they go out and measure things. My ds really enjoys that. Using the Standards: Measurement Workbook Grade 1 / Ages 6–7 $12.99 eBook

 

Fresh Starts and Fast Finishes Resource Book Grades K–2 / Ages 5–8 $6.99 eBook  Just got this to try with my ds. 

Math Thinking Mats Resource Book Grade 1 / Ages 6–7 $18.99 Print $18.99 eBook  We have these in higher grade levels and enjoy them. 

 

Math Resource Book Grade 1 / Ages 6–7 $12.99 eBook We're doing this at a higher grade level, very cute. Didn't realize they ahve a spelling rib ticklers too, fun!

 

Brain Benders Workbook Grades 3–5 / Ages 8–11 $9.99 eBook  She's not ready for this probably (maybe?), but I'm giving you an example of what to look for. All the publishers seem to have stuff like this. You just have to spend some time sifting through their ebook listings to find it. Sometimes they'll list them under categories like Critical Thinking

 

Critical and Creative Thinking Activities, Grade 1 - Teacher Reproducibles, Print

 

Puzzles and Games that Make Kids Think Grade 3 - TCR2563 | Teacher Created Resources  TCR is one of my FAVORITE places to look for fun stuff. They have holiday graphing art, mind twisters, daily warm-up problem solving math, all sorts of goodies that you can throw in here or there, call math, and boom she's having a great time. These are highly preferred things for my ds. That book I linked says gr 3, but looks like they have other grades.

 

 

 

 

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