American students going to college outside the US

[MarkT]

That's interesting.  So someone can't just decide to study for and take APs at another point in their life?  In the UK, people often study A levels if they want to enter university as a mature student and don't otherwise have the qualifications.

 

https://www.nec.ac.uk/course-categories/a-levels

 

Do University bound "High School students" usually do A levels or International GCSE in the UK ?  They seem to be quite similar.

[Laura Corin]

Do University bound "High School students" usually do A levels or International GCSE in the UK ?  They seem to be quite similar.

 

They are different levels.  GCSEs are designed for 16 year olds and A levels normally require another two years of study after that.  Most university-bound students will take 8 to 10 GCSEs but only 3 or 4 A levels.  So a university bound student might apply with something like:

 

GCSEs in English language, English literature, French, history, physics, biology, chemistry, maths and art

 

plus

 

A levels in 'English, French and History' or 'Physics, chemistry and maths' (depending on interest).

 

GCSEs are not enough on their own to gain entrance to university - you need the A levels on top.  The International GCSE is just the overseas version of the GCSE, used in international schools and elsewhere, and sometimes in private schools in the UK.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Arcadia]

That's interesting. So someone can't just decide to study for and take APs at another point in their life?

There is no official age limit for AP exams but finding a test site is difficult as the candidate has to find their own test site willing to let them take the test there and pay directly to the test site.

 

Glasgow takes SAT subject tests scores so it won’t be an issue anyway since anyone can register for SAT subject tests online if over 13 and by mail if under 13. (ETA: CollegeBoard found us a test site when the choices we put in the mail in registration form for DS11 was full. We do have plenty of test sites near us being in a densely populated area)

 

I think US community colleges don’t have transfer agreements in place with overseas universities. Singapore polytechnics do so someone with a polytechnic diploma at 19 years old can transfer to the 3rd year of a UK degree program that has an agreement in place. It saves my relatives the first two years of engineering school fees, room and board. (There is no General Education requirements in polytechnic or my brother would have failed. Technical writing is a requirement for engineering)

 

“General Undergraduate entry requirements:

 

US curriculum

 

Method 1

SAT: 1800 (600+ in each section) / Redesigned SAT: 1280 or ACT: 27

AND

2 AP examinations (in relevant subjects): 4+ or 2 SAT subject tests (in relevant subjects): 600+

Method 2

3 AP examinations (in relevant subjects): 4+ or 3 SAT subject tests (in relevant subjects): 600+†https://www.gla.ac.uk/international/country/usa/#/entryrequirements,scholarships,meetus,studyabroadatinternationalsummerschool

Edited November 14, 2017 by Arcadia

[Laura Corin]

There is no official age limit for AP exams but finding a test site is difficult as the candidate has to find their own test site willing to let them take the test there and pay directly to the test site.

 

 

That's the same here.  However private schools that have charitable status and therefore have to show public benefit often give exam centre access to outsiders to demonstrate this.  Calvin took GCSEs at two separate private schools when he was home educated.

[madteaparty]

DS would likely do an English/french comparative literature type degree (if such thing exists) :) so this limits the countries. He's specifically interested in a British school. The degree he'd complete takes 4 years instead of three so with the overseas rate it's not as huge of a savings as one would think. But I find the admission process actually sort of rational for those schools (as compared to the US process) so I look forward to seeing how it plays for him.

[madteaparty]

Dp

Edited November 14, 2017 by madteaparty

[Laura Corin]

DS would likely do an English/french comparative literature type degree (if such thing exists) :) so this limits the countries. He's specifically interested in a British school. The degree he'd complete takes 4 years instead of three so with the overseas rate it's not as huge of a savings as one would think. But I find the admission process actually sort of rational for those schools (as compared to the US process) so I look forward to seeing how it plays for him.

 

You might like to look at the English/French programmes at Leeds, Glasgow, Birmingham, Southampton and Cardiff.  Those are the programmes that Hobbes is applying to.  Most have link modules between the two subjects, but I don't know if they would meet the description of comparative lit.

[Laura Corin]

DS would likely do an English/french comparative literature type degree (if such thing exists) :) so this limits the countries. He's specifically interested in a British school. The degree he'd complete takes 4 years instead of three so with the overseas rate it's not as huge of a savings as one would think. But I find the admission process actually sort of rational for those schools (as compared to the US process) so I look forward to seeing how it plays for him.

 

Oh, just so that you know: there are some vocab differences in the UK.  Universities are called universities, not colleges or schools.  A college could be a sixth form college or a technical college (both lower level) or it could be a part of a university (as in the Oxford or Cambridge college system).  A school is either for 5 to 18 years olds, or (in some universities) it will be a subdivision or department of the university, so you might have a School of English or a School of Divinity.

 

Other vocab differences: the people who teach are (from lowest to highest) post-doctoral fellow, junior lecturer, lecturer, senior lecturer, reader, professor.  The word 'professor' is only used for those who have that explicit title - there might be only one or more in a department.

[madteaparty]

Oh, just so that you know: there are some vocab differences in the UK. Universities are called universities, not colleges or schools. A college could be a sixth form college or a technical college (both lower level) or it could be a part of a university (as in the Oxford or Cambridge college system). A school is either for 5 to 18 years olds, or (in some universities) it will be a subdivision or department of the university, so you might have a School of English or a School of Divinity.

 

Other vocab differences: the people who teach are (from lowest to highest) post-doctoral fellow, junior lecturer, lecturer, senior lecturer, reader, professor. The word 'professor' is only used for those who have that explicit title - there might be only one or more in a department.

I know :) I'm not using precise terminology because WTM forums are US based and they'd know what I mean :)

[dereksurfs]

If I understand the concept of CC well, most of them won't give acces to 'University' in the Netherlands.

Neither do IGCSE's, only AP's and A-levels gives acces to 'University'

The General Education requirements are covered in Highschool, not at the University.

Transcripts are useless without extern validation.

 

'Middle of the Road' students, don't go to Universities, they might go to 'hogeschool' (FachHochschule)

 

I've heard something to that effect regarding the education system in Europe. What you are saying is that most/all EU universities only educate their best and brightest students? Then the rest of the population goes on to trade schools or simply starts working? 

 

I would think there is still a 'range' of abilities within that population where those with lessor stats go to less selective schools.  For example, not everyone gets into Oxford or Cambridge. Otherwise, you would have a national shortage of educated professionals and too many tradesmiths. Wouldn't that be a problem for it to advance as a nation in the areas of business, technology, innovation, scientific research, quality medical care, engineering, etc...?

 

What about all those students who don't come into their prime until after a couple of years of college/university under their belt? Some simply need to mature before they know what they want in life? Are those young people all doomed to being shoemakers for life?  :)

 

Then you have a wide range of folks with learning disabilities who if provided special assistance or additional training could go on to receive a university degree. Maybe these are some of the differences with the education system in America vs. other countries?

Edited November 15, 2017 by dereksurfs

[madteaparty]

I've heard something to that effect regarding the education system in Europe. What you are saying is that most/all EU universities only educate their best and brightest students? Then the rest of the population goes on to trade schools or simply starts working?

 

I would think there is still a 'range' of abilities within that population where those with lessor stats go to less selective schools. For example, not everyone gets into Oxford or Cambridge. Otherwise, you would have a national shortage of educated professionals and too many tradesmiths. Wouldn't that be a problem for it to advance as a nation in the areas of business, technology, innovation, scientific research, quality medical care, engineering, etc...?

 

What about all those students who don't come into their prime until after a couple of years of college/university under their belt? Some simply need to mature before they know what they want in life? Are those young people all doomed to being shoemakers for life? :)

 

Then you have a wide range of folks with learning disabilities who if provided special assistance or additional training could go on to receive a university degree. Maybe these are some of the differences with the education system in America vs. other countries?

All I know is that the community college thing is a uniquely American phenomenon.

In the countries I'm familiar with, a University spot is free but only if earned. The "earning" of it varies widely by whether you are going into an elite institution/ degree (think the extra year or two of "prepa" in France to maybe go into the grandes ecoles whereas just the Bac score would suffice for a "regular" university or (in other countries) if you want to study medicine or law or whatever.

[Jean in Newcastle]

All I know is that the community college thing is a uniquely American phenomenon.

 

That is not true. Plenty of Japanese students go to community or junior college in Japan.

[madteaparty]

That is not true. Plenty of Japanese students go to community or junior college in Japan.

I stand corrected then!

I read some analysis that states this junior college of not knowing exactly but taking time to find your thing was uniquely American.

[Bootsie]

I've heard something to that effect regarding the education system in Europe. What you are saying is that most/all EU universities only educate their best and brightest students? Then the rest of the population goes on to trade schools or simply starts working? 

 

I would think there is still a 'range' of abilities within that population where those with lessor stats go to less selective schools.  For example, not everyone gets into Oxford or Cambridge. Otherwise, you would have a national shortage of educated professionals and too many tradesmiths. Wouldn't that be a problem for it to advance as a nation in the areas of business, technology, innovation, scientific research, quality medical care, engineering, etc...?

 

What about all those students who don't come into their prime until after a couple of years of college/university under their belt? Some simply need to mature before they know what they want in life? Are those young people all doomed to being shoemakers for life?  :)

 

Then you have a wide range of folks with learning disabilities who if provided special assistance or additional training could go on to receive a university degree. Maybe these are some of the differences with the education system in America vs. other countries?

In talking to the Austrians and Swiss I know, there is a different attitude toward what university is about and who should go to university--it is much more about an intellectual pursuit.  I have an Austrian friend who said, for example "Oh, my sister didn't go to university; she is a nurse and went to nursing school."  To her, nursing was about doing not about thinking.  So, I think there is schooling and training for many professions which lie outside of the university system.  They also seem to have an attitude about it isn't necessarily about the best and brightest getting a university education--it is about a good match in an individual's talents and interests and the education of that person.  A shoemaker could be a highly skilled artisan (who may find sitting around and thinking about a theory and all of its implications as painful as it would be for me to sit around and make shoes all day).

[Jean in Newcastle]

I stand corrected then!

I read some analysis that states this junior college of not knowing exactly but taking time to find your thing was uniquely American.

A lot of Japanese go to junior college if they were not able to pass the university entrance exams. The thing about university in Japan is that it is hard to get in but once students get in then it is a lot of partying-and rampant cheating. Students were stunned at my workload in American university even though it was a lot easier for me to get in.

[luuknam]

I've heard something to that effect regarding the education system in Europe. What you are saying is that most/all EU universities only educate their best and brightest students? Then the rest of the population goes on to trade schools or simply starts working? 

 

I would think there is still a 'range' of abilities within that population where those with lessor stats go to less selective schools.  For example, not everyone gets into Oxford or Cambridge. Otherwise, you would have a national shortage of educated professionals and too many tradesmiths. Wouldn't that be a problem for it to advance as a nation in the areas of business, technology, innovation, scientific research, quality medical care, engineering, etc...?

 

What about all those students who don't come into their prime until after a couple of years of college/university under their belt? Some simply need to mature before they know what they want in life? Are those young people all doomed to being shoemakers for life?  :)

 

 

In NL, you basically have 3 levels of tertiary education - universities, which educate roughly the top 10%, and which are not perceived to really differ from each other in quality (unlike the UK, where it's my understanding that people do perceive quality differences between universities). The different universities in NL are all equally easy to get admitted to* - you just need to graduate the pre-university track of high school, or, if you didn't and are iirc 21yo or older, you can take a test (and, if at any point as an adult you realize you want to get a pre-university track high school diploma, you can take evening classes or w/e at a place for adult learners). Then, there are the hogescholen, which take roughly the next 30% or so, iirc. And then there are the trade schools. And, of course, there are some people who don't do any tertiary education. Like I said, hogescholen are 4 year programs to a bachelor's degree, so, they're basically like US colleges (not CCs). It's my understanding that it's now possible depending on circumstances to go get a master's degree at a university after completing a bachelor's degree at a hogeschool... which wasn't possible before they decided on more European standardization (when I started secondary school people in NL didn't get bachelor's and master's degrees... there were different terms and things). I'm not sure how easy that is to do. Also, if you have finished the first year of hogeschool you can start university in a related field - which is another option for people who didn't graduate from the pre-university track and took that extra year or w/e to figure out what they wanted to do. Also, some kids who graduate from the pre-hogeschool track decide to then go and do 11th and 12th grade of the pre-university track in order to get that diploma, usually staying at the same secondary school they were at. 

 

You can go back and get a second degree, or w/e at any point... though, after you're 30, the govt doesn't subsidize it anymore (last I checked), so, you'd have to find the money yourself, plus, the programs are typically set up to be full time daytime programs (not that you'd be in class all day long... but, they're not designed in such a way that it'd be easy or possible to have a full time job, or a daytime part time job - you'd basically have to get an evening, night, or weekend job if you needed the money). 

 

IOW, there are plenty of possibilities. Now, not *that* many people deviate from the track they were on in 7th grade or w/e... most that do end up one track lower, so there are a fair number of people, for example, that graduate from the pre-university track of high school but end up attending hogeschool instead of university, mostly because they have decided they want a more applied and practical kind of education rather than a more scientific and theoretical kind of education. But, it's not that uncommon that someone might switch majors in hogeschool or university... maybe not as common as in the US, but I know a fair number of people who did change majors. So, it's not like your future is set in stone when you enroll at 18... it's not as painless to switch as in the US (switching majors will almost always add a year of study), but you don't have to be trapped in the wrong thing until you can retire at 68 or w/e just because of a choice you made when you were 17 or 18. 

 

*There are a couple of exceptions, such as medical school - medical school is a 6 year program right after finishing high school, but since there are more people who want to attend than there are spots, it's lottery-based... last I checked, if your GPA is 8.0/10 or greater, it's automatic admission, and then a weighted lottery for people with GPAs between 7.5/10 and 8.0/10, between 7.0 and 7.5, you get the idea. Like, my high school GPA was 7.42 (or was it 7.48?) iirc, so, I'd have pretty decent odds of being admitted (and, you can apply year after year after year), but, with a GPA that close to one of the thresholds, it'd probably make sense to take a couple of evening classes to increase my high school GPA to somewhere between a 7.5 and an 8 (getting it to above 8.0 would require retaking a whole bunch of classes). Not that I have any desire to put up with 6 years of medical school and then a bunch of time specializing etc. 

[dereksurfs]

In talking to the Austrians and Swiss I know, there is a different attitude toward what university is about and who should go to university--it is much more about an intellectual pursuit.  I have an Austrian friend who said, for example "Oh, my sister didn't go to university; she is a nurse and went to nursing school."  To her, nursing was about doing not about thinking.  So, I think there is schooling and training for many professions which lie outside of the university system.  They also seem to have an attitude about it isn't necessarily about the best and brightest getting a university education--it is about a good match in an individual's talents and interests and the education of that person.  A shoemaker could be a highly skilled artisan (who may find sitting around and thinking about a theory and all of its implications as painful as it would be for me to sit around and make shoes all day).

 

Interesting, that does sound different than the US college/university system where one goes to a university to receive a Bachelor of Science in Nursing (BSN) and potentially on to graduate school for a Master of Science in Nursing (MSN) and even Doctor of Nursing Science (DNSc).

 

That's not saying we don't still have vocational schools in the US. However, the vast majority are integrated into community colleges where one can study engineering, marine biology, computer science, law, automotive tech, medical tech and construction management all within the same school. They are integrated into both community colleges and universities where 'applied' fields of math, science and other areas are taught right next to theoretical programs of study. Then there are those which cover both theory and practice such as mechanical engineering with built-in internships applying what is learned in the lectures.

 

With more of a predetermined university system and focus on ones' major right form the beginning, what happens if a student changes his/her mind after realizing that field is not for them? How do they explore their interests academically especially those areas which are more obscure, specialized or emerging? Do they change majors much or is that really not as common as in the US? And what happens if they decide they are tired of making shoes or installing tires once they get a little older? Can they start university later or is it much harder once the 'die has been cast' so to speak?

Edited November 15, 2017 by dereksurfs

[luuknam]

In talking to the Austrians and Swiss I know, there is a different attitude toward what university is about and who should go to university--it is much more about an intellectual pursuit.  I have an Austrian friend who said, for example "Oh, my sister didn't go to university; she is a nurse and went to nursing school."  To her, nursing was about doing not about thinking.  So, I think there is schooling and training for many professions which lie outside of the university system.  

 

 

Right. My dad is a CPA (not exactly, but there is no exact translation). He did not attend university - he took part time hogeschool classes in the evenings when I was little (as in, pretty much too young to remember). When I moved to the US and had to answer questions about whether I was a first-generation college student, I was inclined to say yes, since none of my parents/grandparents etc attended university (fwiw, I ended up saying no, because I decided that what my dad had probably counts as being college educated by US standards). Whereas my FIL, who was a CPA, is university educated (at UTexas). Nursing and CPA and all that kind of stuff is not university stuff. It's hogeschool stuff.

[luuknam]

With more of a predetermined university system and focus on ones' major right form the beginning, what happens if a student changes his/her mind after realizing that field is not for them? How do they explore their interests academically especially those areas which are more obscure, specialized or emerging? Do they change major much or is that really not as common as in the US? And what happens if they decide they are tired of making shoes or installing installing tires once they get a little older? Can they start university later or is it much harder once the 'die has been cast' so to speak?

 

 

I answered that in post #66, but either way, it's not exactly easy to go get a degree when you're older and tired of installing tires in the US either. Maybe a bit easier... but, most of those people would likely end up needing to take remedial courses (either because they didn't learn enough in high school, or because it's just been 15 or w/e years and they've forgotten a ton of it)... I'm pretty sure that for the most part, tire installers in the US who decide they want to become, say, chemical engineers when they're 35 and have a family to care for, tend to not succeed. So, to some degree, it might be a moot point. Yes, you can change stuff later... if you're really motivated, have the right resources and supports, know how the system works, etc... in both NL and the US. In reality... reality sucks. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by luuknam

[dereksurfs]

Right. My dad is a CPA (not exactly, but there is no exact translation). He did not attend university - he took part time hogeschool classes in the evenings when I was little (as in, pretty much too young to remember). When I moved to the US and had to answer questions about whether I was a first-generation college student, I was inclined to say yes, since none of my parents/grandparents etc attended university (fwiw, I ended up saying no, because I decided that what my dad had probably counts as being college educated by US standards). Whereas my FIL, who was a CPA, is university educated (at UTexas). Nursing and CPA and all that kind of stuff is not university stuff. It's hogeschool stuff.

 

Ok, maybe there is not a good American equivalent to hogeschool and therefore its harder initially to compare. When I first looked up the term I saw 'trade school.' However, in the US trade schools or vocational schools are typically shorter and cover a much narrower span of lower paying occupations. These include things like dog grooming schools, welding, automotive mechanics, beautician schools and many lower level medical jobs like nursing aides. They rarely exceed two years and never results in a 4 year bachelor degree. So the idea of an accountant going to a trade school for his CPA would be unheard of in the US. That requires a four year university or college degree plus a lengthy and extensive examination.

Edited November 15, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Jean in Newcastle]

Japan is another place with tracking in junior and senior high. If you don’t pass the entrance exam for a higher level junior high then right there your future prospects are limited. If you don’t pass the entrance exam for a higher senior high then you’re limited again. Actually a lot of those students come to the US later if they want to be able to broaden their horizons and be eligible for better choices. Tracking is great for early bloomers. Not so great for the rest.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[luuknam]

Ok, maybe there is not a good American equivalent to hogeschool and therefore its harder initially to compare. When I first looked up the term I saw 'trade school.' However, in the US trade schools or vocational schools are typically shorter and cover a much narrower span of lower paying occupations. These include things like dog grooming schools, welding, automotive mechanics, beautician schools and many lower level medical jobs like nursing aides. They rarely exceed two years and never results in a 4 year bachelor degree. So the idea of an accountant going to a trade school for his CPA would be unheard of in the US. That requires a four year university or college degree plus a lengthy and extensive examination.

 

 

Right. Trade school is a bad translation for that. I usually refer to hogeschool as "college" and to universiteit as, well, "university", which of course tends to confuse Americans as well... but, it's more accurate. I'd never translate hogeschool as trade school. Hogescholen offer HBO - hoger beroepsonderwijs, i.e. higher job* education. Then, what I'd consider to be trade schools, offer MBO - middelbaar beroepsonderwijs - middle job education. So, the 'higher' is the key word in hogeschool and HBO, not the 'job'... CPAs and RNs have "higher" jobs, as opposed to more "middle" jobs like what you think of when you think trade school (though quite honestly, I'm not sure that it makes sense to say an RN has a higher job than a master electrician or something, even if the latter only has an MBO degree**, but w/e... apples and oranges etc). FWIW, universities offer WO, which is wetenschappelijk onderwijs - scientific education. IIRC, trade schools (MBO) are typically 3 years, and certainly do not give you a bachelor's degree. People attending trade school typically graduate high school at the end of 10th grade and then go to trade school. 

 

If you're really curious about all this, you could try using Google translate on this:

 

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelbaar_beroepsonderwijs

 

*Of course, there are multiple possible translations... you could say vocation or trade or w/e instead of job, for example. 

 

**I'm not entirely sure what one needs to do to become a master electrician in NL. It's possible you might need some more certifications after you finish trade school in order to reach master electrician level... I don't know. But, I'm pretty sure they don't go to hogeschool, just like my CPA dad has never set foot in a university (he does have some post-graduate certifications, I think... but, he's never taken a university class in any way shape or form, because CPA is not a university thing). 

[dereksurfs]

Japan is another place with tracking in junior and senior high. If you don’t pass the entrance exam for a higher level junior high then right there your future prospects are limited. If you don’t pass the entrance exam for a higher senior high then you’re limited again. Actually a lot of those students come to the US later if they want to be able to broaden their horizons and be eligible for better choices. Tracking is great for early bloomers. Not so great for the rest.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes, to the early bloomer goes the spoils and rest are basically screwed no matter how bright they are once fully developed and matured. That's unfortunate for a number of obvious reasons and I can see why some would come to the US later to learn. The human brain develops at different times for different people and that's perfectly normal. Its almost like the kids who potty train early and are deemed brilliant when its actually not a real sign of intelligence. Likewise, so it is with the brain in moving from concrete operations to abstract reasoning. That's why algebra is so hard for some students to grasp initially. Their brain has simply not developed enough in that area yet. It does not mean they will not be equally or even more skilled in abstract reasoning once they get a little older.

Edited November 15, 2017 by dereksurfs

[luuknam]

Tracking is great for early bloomers. Not so great for the rest.

 

 

You can really mitigate the downsides by having many alternative options to unlimit things. Like I said, in NL there are so many ways to end up at a higher level if you want to:

 

0) The first 1-3 years of secondary school are not set in stone... if you work hard, you can move up a track during that time period, often without having to repeat a year. So, it's mostly grades 10-12 that are rigidly tracked... before that, it's a looser tracking, varying by school and sometimes even within a school. Like, when I started secondary school, I could choose if I wanted a mixed vmbo/havo/vwo class, or a mixed vmbo/havo class, or a mixed havo/vwo class, or a vmbo class, or a havo class, or a vwo class (the v stands for preparatory, so, vmbo prepares for mbo, and vwo prepares for wo, and the acronym havo doesn't really follow this naming convention, but it prepares for hbo). So, I could've chosen to be untracked for 7th grade, or to be tracked for 7th grade (I chose to be in a bilingual vwo program that took a special exam and interview to be admitted, so, I was very tracked, but, that was a choice I made (most kids in NL choose what secondary school they'll attend, and what track they'll be in... their parents have final decision-making authority, but the vast majority of parents realize that it's not super useful to force a kid entering 7th grade to be in a track that they don't want to be in, because it's likely to lead to failure one way or another... so, parents and 6th grade teachers help guide these decisions, talking about the pros and cons, etc etc etc, but the kid has a large amount of input - of course, if you fail, you'd have to repeat a grade or drop down to a lower track, but, it's not like this tracking thing that's something that's completely externally imposed on kids, and if you start in, say, the vmbo/havo track in 7th grade and do very well, you could ask to be placed in the havo/vwo track for 8th grade, and if you do well, end up doing vwo for the remainder). It's just not completely rigid until the last few years.

1) Spend a couple more years in high school after finishing your track so you get a diploma from the next track up (this really adds only 1 year, since lower tracks are 1 years shorter).

2) Complete the first year of hogeschool, and you can then go to university in a related field... you'd have to do the full 3 years of university, but, this wouldn't really cost any extra time, because 5 years of pre-hogeschool track + 1 year of hogeschool is the same amount of time as 6 years of pre-university track.

3) Take classes in evening school after graduating from a lower track if you don't feel like spending more time in high school full-time.

4) Wait until you're 21 or w/e the age is and then pass the entrance exam (the entrance exam is major-specific).

5) Get a hogeschool degree (bachelor's) and then get a master's degree at a university (this might be more possible for certain fields than for others... the whole BS/MS thing was really new when I was in high school, and I moved to the US, so, I don't know too much about this option, since I never ever intended to get a hogeschool degree... ever since I was like 7 I wanted to get a PhD and be a scientist and professor, which very, very obviously meant university). 

Edited November 15, 2017 by luuknam

[luuknam]

Btw, I realize that I'm mostly addressing pathways to get from (pre)hogeschool to (pre)university, but that's mostly because I don't know that much about (pre)tradeschool. There are pathways, some of which are the same as the ones I've listed above. 

[Laura Corin]

In the UK about 50 per cent go to university. There are colleges that teach particular trades in addition. My local one specialises in golf related trades.

 

Anyone can self study for entrance to university at any time or use distance learning. In some areas there are also evening classes. Many universities also have a pre university one year course for mature students that takes the place of standard entrance exams.

 

My brother trained to be a computer programmer in his late twenties having previously worked as a driver and a croupier. He's had a perfectly normal middle class career in his field.

 

My university also runs a part time evening degree for those who are already working.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Laura Corin

[Laetissima]

I went to a few years of public college in the US (double major, French and English, with no previous high school diploma--I was not homeschooled exactly, it's complicated), then a year of a study-abroad program in France during which I validated the last few credits needed for my BA, and at the end I wanted to stay on for another year or two. The program was ridiculously expensive; I was paying much more than my tuition back home and much MUCH more than local tuition in France, and I had already worked so hard to master French and adapt to the French system but wasn't going to get any extra degree to show for it, so I officially enrolled in a French university and finished my studies there and still live in France. It was a few hundred euros per year for tuition, though this was 15 years ago. 

 

I don't know if it's pertinent to anyone's questions here but I found it quite easy to enter a public university in France. (The more prestigious "grandes écoles" are another story.) I had to redo a year, I mean do the last year of a "licence" program even though I already had an American BA and a year of that study-abroad program, but it was a useful transition to grad school. I was also studying literature and language, and degrees from a foreign country would not have been a problem had I moved back to the US later. I doubt I would have dared do graduate studies in France in science or medicine or law if I had not been absolutely sure of wanting to stay and work in France afterward. 

[MarkT]

In talking to the Austrians and Swiss I know, there is a different attitude toward what university is about and who should go to university--it is much more about an intellectual pursuit.  

In my field I have used practical Computer Science/Computer Engineering research and papers from this school to help prepare professional training materials:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETH_Zurich

all the papers were in English.

 

they seem to be quite similar to American Universities:

https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/prospective-bachelors-degree-students.html

[Bootsie]

In my field I have used practical Computer Science/Computer Engineering research and papers from this school to help prepare professional training materials:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETH_Zurich

all the papers were in English.

 

they seem to be quite similar to American Universities:

https://www.ethz.ch/en/studies/prospective-bachelors-degree-students.html

I have a friend in computer science at ETH--he is an American who has been working there for about 25 years now.  When I said that, IME, they are more about intellectual conversation, I did not mean to imply that this conversation was not of an applied, professional nature.  One example is many European undergraduates must write a thesis; this is uncommon in the US.  

[Arcadia]

When I said that, IME, they are more about intellectual conversation, I did not mean to imply that this conversation was not of an applied, professional nature. One example is many European undergraduates must write a thesis; this is uncommon in the US.

Does US universities have viva voce (oral defense of dissertation)?

[Bootsie]

Yes, to the early bloomer goes the spoils and rest are basically screwed no matter how bright they are once fully developed and matured. That's unfortunate for a number of obvious reasons and I can see why some would come to the US later to learn. The human brain develops at different times for different people and that's perfectly normal. Its almost like the kids who potty train early and are deemed brilliant when its actually not a real sign of intelligence. Likewise, so it is with the brain in moving from concrete operations to abstract reasoning. That's why algebra is so hard for some students to grasp initially. Their brain has simply not developed enough in that area yet. It does not mean they will not be equally or even more skilled in abstract reasoning once they get a little older.

I don't think it is seen so much as a matter of how bright someone is.  I think European are much more likely to view someone as a brilliant shoemaker, a brilliant musician, a brilliant painter, etc. than we are.   I think they are much better at letting young children explore who they are and what their talents are so that in the teen years they have a better handle on whether they like to work with their hands, play music, read, be outdoors, etc.  They may not be ready to pursue abstract reasoning within the area of their interest, but they often have some idea of what direction they want to go.

 

To me, it makes more sense to offer a late teen some options that engage him; let him know that it is OK to have an apprenticeship and learn some valuable skills (which go beyond making money--they are learning communication skills, responsibility, independence, etc.)  Then, at 25, if he really wanted to pursue a university education, there are ways of doing it  In the US we seem to take these young people and put them on hold, waiting for them to bloom so that they want to take calculus.  In the end, they are not ahead academically.  Often they are frustrated, have low self-esteem, and are bored.

[dereksurfs]

I don't think it is seen so much as a matter of how bright someone is.  I think European are much more likely to view someone as a brilliant shoemaker, a brilliant musician, a brilliant painter, etc. than we are.   I think they are much better at letting young children explore who they are and what their talents are so that in the teen years they have a better handle on whether they like to work with their hands, play music, read, be outdoors, etc.  They may not be ready to pursue abstract reasoning within the area of their interest, but they often have some idea of what direction they want to go.

 

To me, it makes more sense to offer a late teen some options that engage him; let him know that it is OK to have an apprenticeship and learn some valuable skills (which go beyond making money--they are learning communication skills, responsibility, independence, etc.)  Then, at 25, if he really wanted to pursue a university education, there are ways of doing it  In the US we seem to take these young people and put them on hold, waiting for them to bloom so that they want to take calculus.  In the end, they are not ahead academically.  Often they are frustrated, have low self-esteem, and are bored.

 

It sounds like one of the biggest differences perhaps for young adults educationally is that in the US they can explore areas of potential interest within the college/university system. For example, many will gain acceptance to a university out of high school as an undeclared major. Or they will enter in with a business major or something else broadly based. The first 1-2 years involves many general education courses across a wide spectrum of disciplines. Then after exploring their interests through taking a number of lower division classes, they will readjust their major and career plans accordingly. Whereas in the EU, they are encouraged earlier on to pick a profession and then are funneled in that direction. Maybe they go to hogeschool/HBO  or middelbaar/MBO to learn a skill of some kind. Then if they decide later, lets say in their mid-twenties, that they to go to a university they can apply. If so, they can take the pre-university courses and tests needed to gain acceptance.

 

Since the US does not really distinguish between university/college and hogeschool or other schools like it, I wonder if some in the US ever go to the EU for hogeschool? Its kind of this 'other' thing educationally that most Americans probably do not understand. So that may present a challenge for some if they plan to work in the US after graduation, for example.

 

Honestly, I can see the value of both depending on the student, their interests and development. I guess I'm mainly just trying to understand the differences which is really a paradigm shift for those in the US, especially when we speak about attending a university. That actually means different things depending on the context in which it is being asked. As was mentioned earlier, if a student wants to be an accountant and CPA, he/she would 'not' go a university in the EU for that. Instead, he/she would go to hogeschool perhaps. I have no idea what differentiates one major and profession from the next if both require 3-4 years of higher education. Would all business majors including accounting go to hogeschool or do some go to a university? Are universities mainly for STEM majors?

Edited November 16, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Bootsie]

 

 

Honestly, I can see the value of both depending on the student, their interests and development. I guess I'm mainly just trying to understand the differences which is really a paradigm shift for those in the US, especially when we speak about attending a university. That actually means different things depending on the context in which it is being asked. As was mentioned earlier, if a student wants to be an accountant and CPA, he/she would 'not' go a university in the EU for that. Instead, he/she would go to hogeschool perhaps. I have no idea what differentiates one major and profession from the next if both require 3-4 years of higher education. Would all business majors including accounting go to hogeschool or do some go to a university? Are universities mainly for STEM majors?

 

It is a different paradigm and mindset.  Another example is that my cousin married a young German woman.  She was working in a kindergarten in Germany.  She came to the US and realized she would have to go to university to be a kindergarten teacher.  That meant taking the SAT; she would be required to take a statistics course and math courses she did not need in Germany, etc.  Where she was living in Texas there was a push to improve education, which was being interpreted as Pre-K teachers needing a masters degree from a university.  She saw absolutely no relationship between being a kindergarten teacher and going through advanced education at a university.  

[Bootsie]

Does US universities have viva voce (oral defense of dissertation)?

At what level of education are you talking about?  In in the US, a person pursuing a PhD would write a dissertation and, most likely, have an oral defense.  At levels under a PhD at would be unlikely, although that would vary a great deal by field of study.

[Lori D.]

Coming late to this party to just throw in the possibility of university tuition exchange programs with colleges outside of the U.S. (and programs that are tuition exchange for colleges within the US):

 

ISEP (300 schools in 50 countries)

NSE (200 schools in Canada, Guam, Puerto Rico, and North/Eastern U.S.)

MHEC (100 schools in 9 Midwestern U.S. states)

WUE and WICHE (200 schools in 16 Western U.S. states)

[Arcadia]

At what level of education are you talking about? In in the US, a person pursuing a PhD would write a dissertation and, most likely, have an oral defense. At levels under a PhD at would be unlikely, although that would vary a great deal by field of study.

Bachelors level. My husband and I had viva voce for our BEng (his was electrical engineering, mine was civil engineering) final year project dissertation. Lecturers in related fields but not our project supervisors were the graders. If we fail that, there would be a 2nd attempt with different graders usually a week later. Most people would pass the viva voce but there were people who failed the 1st attempt.

 

ETA:

Internship in the 3rd year of study was compulsory and graded for my husband and me. It is listed in our transcripts. Nobody graduated from engineering without completing an internship for my alma mater. The grading was UK style with first class honours, second upper, second lower for bachelors with honours degrees.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Arcadia

[Bootsie]

Bachelors level. My husband and I had viva voce for our BEng (his was electrical engineering, mine was civil engineering) final year project dissertation. Lecturers in related fields but not our project supervisors were the graders. If we fail that, there would be a 2nd attempt with different graders usually a week later. Most people would pass the viva voce but there were people who failed the 1st attempt.

 

ETA:

Internship in the 3rd year of study was compulsory and graded for my husband and me. It is listed in our transcripts. Nobody graduated from engineering without completing an internship for my alma mater.

Very few US students will do this type of project as an undergraduate and even fewer will have an oral defense.  DD attends a small, liberal arts college and will do this as a comparative lit major; her school prides itself in having this as a requirement, but, even so, some disciplines (such as business) have gotten waivers and do not require it.

[luuknam]

The first 1-2 years involves many general education courses across a wide spectrum of disciplines. Then after exploring their interests through taking a number of lower division classes, they will readjust their major and career plans accordingly. 

 

As was mentioned earlier, if a student wants to be an accountant and CPA, he/she would 'not' go a university in the EU for that. Instead, he/she would go to hogeschool perhaps. I have no idea what differentiates one major and profession from the next if both require 3-4 years of higher education. Would all business majors including accounting go to hogeschool or do some go to a university? Are universities mainly for STEM majors?

 

 

Realistically, most of those gen ed courses in the US tend to just be things like College Algebra or Calculus, a science like biology, chemistry, or physics, art appreciation, English 1301 and English 1302, maybe a foreign language, US history 1301 and 1302, US government 2301 and 2302, um, stuff like that. Kids attending university in NL will have taken those gen ed things in high school. Now, some courses are not offered in high school, and sometimes you can substitute something more interesting for a gen ed course, like, I took applied behavior analysis for some gen ed requirement, but a lot of people just look at the stuff listed as the gen ed requirements (without reading the fine print that says certain other courses also will qualify), and listen to what their advisor tells them, and end up taking the stuff that kids in NL get in high school. And while some majors have a lot of elective space, others have almost none - like EE majors, or architecture majors, or w/e.

 

Like, I had Dutch, English, German, French, and Latin in secondary school, I had biology, chemistry, physics, algebra, geometry, trig, calculus, statistics and probability (those are all in integrated math), macro and micro economics (one integrated class - there's also a class that's more of an accounting class, but I didn't have space for that), history, (physical and human) geography, shop (as in, woodworking, metalworking, electrical stuff, etc - there's also a crafts class that normally everybody takes but since I was in the bilingual program that was something we didn't get to take), art, art appreciation, music, some misc class that covered things like personal health, hygiene, safety, and life skills and study skills and other stuff not covered in other classes, PE, um, that probably about sums it up. Now, I obviously didn't have all of the above every year, though I did have 15 different subjects for a few years (which is common).  

 

Anyway, no, universities are not just for STEM degrees. They just have a more theoretical slant. Here's an example of a list of bachelor's degrees:

 

http://www.rug.nl/bachelors/alphabet

 

If you click on the majors, you can get a description - though for some the description is in Dutch... if you scroll down, in the box it says whether the major is 100% in Dutch (rare), 50%-50%, or 100% in English (there might be other options, but those were the ones I saw). Maybe, for a bad comparison, you could think of PhD programs. You can get a PhD in anything, but they're more scientifically oriented. Obviously, these are not 3 year programs to a PhD, and realistically, I think that since that whole European standardization stuff hogeschool and university have become more similar... I mean, people have been saying that there should be more applied and real life stuff in university education for decades etc... NL has been moving more towards the American model, for better or worse. 

 

I don't think there are many Americans attending hogeschool. There don't seem to be many Americans doing any kind of undergraduate stuff in NL - I've heard a number of people tell me about their sibling or whomever who is doing/did a PhD in NL, but undergrad, or even Master's... I haven't really heard of many Americans doing that. The Chinese seem to be more aware of the possibility of studying in NL (in my very limited experience). 

Edited November 15, 2017 by luuknam

[Arcadia]

There don't seem to be many Americans doing any kind of undergraduate stuff in NL - I've heard a number of people tell me about their sibling or whomever who is doing/did a PhD in NL, but undergrad, or even Master's... I haven't really heard of many Americans doing that. The Chinese seem to be more aware of the possibility of studying in NL (in my very limited experience).

TUDelft is actually well known in Asia. They accept China Chinese who has passed the Gao Kao (the extremely stressful college entrance exam in China).

 

From Delft University of Technology for US applicants

 

“Accepted diplomas:

American High School with USA Collegeboard Advanced Placement tests (with additional conditions).

 

* Additionally we require you to have finished one year at a recognised Science University (including the required Science subjects for the specific Bachelor of Science programme of your choice).Please note that no rights can be derived from this information and the final eligibility/admissibility to the programme will always be determined by the Admission Office.â€

https://www.tudelft.nl/en/education/admission-and-application/bsc-international/1-admission-requirements/

[Penguin]

Two more things to consider:

 

(1) If you do not complete the program all the way through the exit exams, you might have nothing to claim but the experience. Not all systems have interim credits like we do in the USA.

 

(2) Your student visa might be tied to a particular program, and it might be  impossible to change programs without first reapplying for a new student visa.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Penguin

[dereksurfs]

Very few US students will do this type of project as an undergraduate and even fewer will have an oral defense.  DD attends a small, liberal arts college and will do this as a comparative lit major; her school prides itself in having this as a requirement, but, even so, some disciplines (such as business) have gotten waivers and do not require it.

 

I had to do this for my undergraduate degree which is a bachelor of Science in Life Science. It is a research university which is a medical school with a hospital on campus - Loma Linda University. We basically had to do a final research project and then present our findings to a larger audience of peers and professors. Prior to presenting we had to submit initial drafts of our research for review by our advisor. This was an iterative process normally requiring revisions to strengthen our final analysis and presentation.

Edited November 15, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Laura Corin]

Realistically, most of those gen ed courses in the US tend to just be things like College Algebra or Calculus, a science like biology, chemistry, or physics, art appreciation, English 1301 and English 1302, maybe a foreign language, US history 1301 and 1302, US government 2301 and 2302, um, stuff like that. Kids attending university in NL will have taken those gen ed things in high school. Now, some courses are not offered in high school, and sometimes you can substitute something more interesting for a gen ed course, like, I took applied behavior analysis for some gen ed requirement, but a lot of people just look at the stuff listed as the gen ed requirements (without reading the fine print that says certain other courses also will qualify), and listen to what their advisor tells them, and end up taking the stuff that kids in NL get in high school.  

 

Yes.  General education is finished in 'high' school in the UK.  I asked the writer of Life of Fred to look at the IGCSE syllabus to see which of his books you would need to study in order to cover the syllabus.  He said that you would need all of them (including calculus and statistics although not the full content of either of those).  And APs, which are meant to represent the same value as a university course are seen as equivalent to A levels, which are studied up to the age of 18 in the UK.

 

There are A levels in lots of subjects, although it depends on your school what will be covered.  If you are lucky, you might be offered psychology or Mandarin, for example, in addition to the standard subjects.

 

The average drop out rate at UK universities is around 6%, which I think might partly reflect that those who attend are really ready to study.  The US rate seems to be much higher, although I realise that money is a big factor in this:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/11/19/u_s_college_dropouts_rates_explained_in_4_charts.html

[3andme]

Laura -

 

I know this veers somewhat from the current direction of this thread, but can you tell me more about the Tutorial Method that is used at Oxford. Is this method exclusive to Oxford or is it used elsewhere? Does it completely supplant traditional class lectures or is it a supplement? I've also read that it is very writing intensive - requiring weekly papers/essays be prepared for each tutor. Any insight would be appreciated.

[MarkT]

It is a different paradigm and mindset.  Another example is that my cousin married a young German woman.  She was working in a kindergarten in Germany.  She came to the US and realized she would have to go to university to be a kindergarten teacher.  That meant taking the SAT; she would be required to take a statistics course and math courses she did not need in Germany, etc.  Where she was living in Texas there was a push to improve education, which was being interpreted as Pre-K teachers needing a masters degree from a university.  She saw absolutely no relationship between being a kindergarten teacher and going through advanced education at a university.  

I totally agree with this statement. For K-2 teachers there should be an associate's degree that could used to train for this need which would be much cheaper for the student.

 

Some states allow charter schools not be to forced to hire teachers with state education certification (which according to my teacher friends is a pretty worthless bureaucratic hoop they had to jump through).

 

Hopefully other countries are more practical.

[dereksurfs]

Yes.  General education is finished in 'high' school in the UK.  I asked the writer of Life of Fred to look at the IGCSE syllabus to see which of his books you would need to study in order to cover the syllabus.  He said that you would need all of them (including calculus and statistics although not the full content of either of those).  And APs, which are meant to represent the same value as a university course are seen as equivalent to A levels, which are studied up to the age of 18 in the UK.

 

There are A levels in lots of subjects, although it depends on your school what will be covered.  If you are lucky, you might be offered psychology or Mandarin, for example, in addition to the standard subjects.

 

The average drop out rate at UK universities is around 6%, which I think might partly reflect that those who attend are really ready to study.  The US rate seems to be much higher, although I realise that money is a big factor in this:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/11/19/u_s_college_dropouts_rates_explained_in_4_charts.html

 

So if these are completed in high school, I assume those are completed by students on the pre-university track. I actually like the idea of doing some GE early. From a homeschool perspective, we use dual-enrollment to take college/university GE courses while in high school. I like having that as an option. I've heard from friends whose kids are attending public school that they are also attending our local community college for courses not offered at the high school level like computer science courses. In addition, as mentioned, many take AP courses which count for both high school and college credit. That being said, students can still take additional courses once in college/university that they may be interested in not available in high school such as accounting, intro to engineering, astronomy, etc... I think that helps them explore various fields of interest beyond what they are exposed to while in high school.

 

Regarding the dropout rates, yes, that is a problem. Maybe some would be better served at an EU style hogeschools. I personally think we need more internship experiences starting in high school as a required element of the overall education process. This should also be a requirement of college/university programs as well. It's necessary for *some* professions such as the medical field and *some* technical schools. However, I think that model can be greatly expanded to provide more hands-on experiences and exposures to real word work. This provides them more practical exposures to what a career is like as well as giving them valuable real world experience prior to graduation.

Edited November 16, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Arcadia]

That being said, students can still take additional courses once in college/university that they may be interested in not available in high school such as accounting, intro to engineering, astronomy, etc... I think that helps them explore various fields of interest beyond what they are exposed to while in high school.

Department of Continuing Education or Department of Extramural Studies. I took German as an extramural study course paying 30% of the course fee as a matriculated undergrad while at university and German was added into my engineering transcript. So I had German 1 and German 2 in my transcript.

[Laura Corin]

Laura -

 

I know this veers somewhat from the current direction of this thread, but can you tell me more about the Tutorial Method that is used at Oxford. Is this method exclusive to Oxford or is it used elsewhere? Does it completely supplant traditional class lectures or is it a supplement? I've also read that it is very writing intensive - requiring weekly papers/essays be prepared for each tutor. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

My son Calvin is at Oxford.  The tutorial is the compulsory part of the degree.  Oxford and Cambridge both use it, but I think that Cambridge is more likely that Oxford to have two students present rathe than just one.  Classically, there is one or two 'tute' a week.  You write an essay for it, read it, and then discuss it one-on-one with your tutor, who is a full member of staff (lecturer or professor) not a teaching assistant.  

 

There are lectures and seminars in addition.  The lectures are optional - I'm not sure about the seminars.  Calvin often skips lectures because he feels that he can absorb more views more efficiently by reading for an hour in the library.  In general, Oxford has very little contact time - a lot of independent research is expected.

[dereksurfs]

Department of Continuing Education or Department of Extramural Studies. I took German as an extramural study course paying 30% of the course fee as a matriculated undergrad while at university and German was added into my engineering transcript. So I had German 1 and German 2 in my transcript.

 

Arcadia, it sounds like if you have interests outside your major you can still find ways to take certain courses.  Although those are not required for graduation. Is that correct?

 

Along those lines, do EU universities have options like those in the US such as 'minoring' in a different field? What about those who want to 'double major?' For example, computer science and physics or mathematics?

Edited November 15, 2017 by dereksurfs

[Laura Corin]

So if these are completed in high school, I assume those are completed by those on the pre-university track. I actually like the idea of doing some GE early. From a homeschool perspective, we use dual-enrollment to take college/university GE courses while in high school. I like having that as an option. I've heard from friends whose kids are attending public school that they are also attending our local community college for courses not offered at the high school level like computer science courses. In addition, as mentioned, many take AP courses which count for both high school and college credit. That being said, students can still take additional courses once in college/university that they may be interested in not available in high school such as accounting, intro to engineering, astronomy, etc... I think that helps them explore various fields of interest beyond what they are exposed to while in high school.

 

Regarding the dropout rates, yes, that is a problem. Maybe some would be better served at a EU style EU style hogeschools. I personally think we need more internship experiences starting in high school as a required element of the overall education process. This should also be a requirement of college/university programs as well. It's necessary for *some* professions such as the medical field and *some* technical schools. However, I think that model can be greatly expanded to provide more hands-on experiences and exposures to real word work. This provides them more practical exposures to what a career is like as well as giving them valuable real world experience prior to graduation.

 

The GCSE is the General Certificate of Secondary Education.  Until recently, the school leaving age was 16, so that was the last exam level that everyone (not just those going to university) was expected to take.  In order to get good entry-level jobs (receptionist, etc) you may well need a minimum of GCSE pass in English and maths, so it's not something just for 'university track'.  As the UK does not have transcripts, our only 'school leaving' certificate is a collection of exams. 

 

A levels, (AP equivalents) by contrast are more likely to be taken by people wanting to go to university, but not necessarily.  

 

Now that the school leaving age is being raised to 18, one option is vocational/apprentice track after age 16, similar to your description.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

Along those lines, do EU universities have options like those in the US such as 'minoring' in a different field? What about those who want to 'double major?' For example, computer science and physics or mathematics?

 

Joint degrees are very common. I did one, and so are/will both my boys.  Major/minor degrees also exist but I think are less common.  There are also new liberal arts degrees at some universities:

 

https://www.exeter.ac.uk/undergraduate/degrees/libarts/

 

The norm in Scotland is to study three subjects for the first two years, then continue with one or two for the final two years.