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#151 ktgrok

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Posted 14 November 2017 - 11:50 PM

Maybe we got a big boost because of my ds' language issues? The exercises were overtly HARD for ds when we started and improved. So for him the change was noticeable.

 

That makes sense...if he had expressive language issues that would be hard, and practice would help. 



#152 Lecka

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:46 AM

I knew my son's Dibels scores and knew he did okay on RAN/RAS, iirc.

Ktgrok -- you might have that info from the person you took her to see? If it wasn't mentioned it might be fine?

SouthernIvy -- iirc that information will be part of the CTOPP? You got an appointment really quickly for that!

On the Dibels iirc they combined letter names for RAN/RAS (aka -- kids name letters and there is a recommended number of letters to name in a certain time). His teacher told me (iirc) he had a good speed on the letters he knew but then some letters he didn't know as well. So that is more about knowing letters names.

Anyway -- just because Dibels is what they did at school. That was my first hint of any problem, he scored at-risk on Dibels in Kindergarten.

#153 joyofsix

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 04:28 PM

I kniw your mama heart breaks for her and you are probably frustrated and scared too. I'm so sorry for both of you but you are looking and searching for answers and that shows your commitment. Hugs to you both.

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#154 Southern Ivy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:56 PM

never mind - google is a good thing. ;)  

 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 15 November 2017 - 07:13 PM.


#155 Southern Ivy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 06:58 PM

I knew my son's Dibels scores and knew he did okay on RAN/RAS, iirc.

Ktgrok -- you might have that info from the person you took her to see? If it wasn't mentioned it might be fine?

SouthernIvy -- iirc that information will be part of the CTOPP? You got an appointment really quickly for that!

On the Dibels iirc they combined letter names for RAN/RAS (aka -- kids name letters and there is a recommended number of letters to name in a certain time). His teacher told me (iirc) he had a good speed on the letters he knew but then some letters he didn't know as well. So that is more about knowing letters names.

Anyway -- just because Dibels is what they did at school. That was my first hint of any problem, he scored at-risk on Dibels in Kindergarten.

It's through the dyslexia center. However, I mentioned it to the office manager at the speech clinic and she said that in the past, they have borrowed tests from Missouri State University, so she was going to check with the owner and see what they could do. It would be nice as insurance would probably pay for it that way. If I go through the dyslexia center, it will be out of pocket. 

What info are you referring to? RAN/RAS? Pretty sure it will be on there. 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 15 November 2017 - 07:12 PM.


#156 Southern Ivy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:15 PM

I kniw your mama heart breaks for her and you are probably frustrated and scared too. I'm so sorry for both of you but you are looking and searching for answers and that shows your commitment. Hugs to you both.

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#157 OhElizabeth

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 07:53 PM

Ooo yeah, SLPs can run the CTOPP!! It's the younger, but yeah go for it. They could also run the TAPS for you. Do you have to be 6 for the TAPS? You could see. 

 

I'm all for testing, especially if you can get insurance to cover it. And any testing you can do with the SLP will be way cheaper per hour than with a psych. 

 

The other super smart thing to do, if you can charm them into it, is to ask for copies of the front page of the testing booklet, the scoring page. That's where they'll have all the little graphs with raw data and percentiles and equivalents and junk. I try to get copies of those, because I bounce so much between providers. I'm taking data to an IEP team, therapists for consults, etc. With that much bouncing around, it's nice to have the original data for them to look at, not just the dab the therapist puts in the report. A psych might not do that for me, but SLPs usually will, sure. And it's really handy to have it so portable. 


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#158 Southern Ivy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:26 PM

Ooo yeah, SLPs can run the CTOPP!! It's the younger, but yeah go for it. They could also run the TAPS for you. Do you have to be 6 for the TAPS? You could see. 

 

I'm all for testing, especially if you can get insurance to cover it. And any testing you can do with the SLP will be way cheaper per hour than with a psych. 

 

The other super smart thing to do, if you can charm them into it, is to ask for copies of the front page of the testing booklet, the scoring page. That's where they'll have all the little graphs with raw data and percentiles and equivalents and junk. I try to get copies of those, because I bounce so much between providers. I'm taking data to an IEP team, therapists for consults, etc. With that much bouncing around, it's nice to have the original data for them to look at, not just the dab the therapist puts in the report. A psych might not do that for me, but SLPs usually will, sure. And it's really handy to have it so portable. 

Ahh, good to know. I'll ask. Hopefully, they'll give it to me if I tell them I want to send it to the audiologists. 

Yeah, our SLP doesn't usually do the CTOPP, but the office admin was thinking they could get it from the speech clinic at the university. So, I'll double check with her on Monday and see what she found out. 


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#159 Lecka

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:41 PM

There is a theory that there are two main things causing lots of reading issues.

One is phonological awareness or phonemic awareness.

Two is rapid naming. Rapid naming and RAN/RAS are the same thing. It is what it sounds like -- how fast can you say the name of something.

So some screenings look at both things. Kids can have a hard time with one or the other, or both.

And that's about all I know about rapid naming! I've never paid much as much attention to it, since even from the Dibels screening I thought my son did okay on rapid naming while bombing the phonological/phonemic awareness part.

Anyway -- I think if there is a low score on any of these screenings for it, they will mention it to you.

Edit: this is my understanding, hopefully I am remembering that right.

Edited by Lecka, 15 November 2017 - 08:44 PM.


#160 Southern Ivy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 08:56 PM

There is a theory that there are two main things causing lots of reading issues.

One is phonological awareness or phonemic awareness.

Two is rapid naming. Rapid naming and RAN/RAS are the same thing. It is what it sounds like -- how fast can you say the name of something.

So some screenings look at both things. Kids can have a hard time with one or the other, or both.

And that's about all I know about rapid naming! I've never paid much as much attention to it, since even from the Dibels screening I thought my son did okay on rapid naming while bombing the phonological/phonemic awareness part.

Anyway -- I think if there is a low score on any of these screenings for it, they will mention it to you.

Edit: this is my understanding, hopefully I am remembering that right.

I knew that rapid naming was on the CTOPP at least a little, based off what the Dyslexia center told me, so I was seeing today how she would do. I had some flashcards and she rapid named the colors. (she got confused on the orange and said it was brown, but it was a darker orange...so there's that) We also took those flashcards and quickly named the items on the flashcards. She did that really well. I felt like she did them fast. There really wasn't any wait time for her unless she didn't know it at all. 
We haven't done shapes yet, but I know she doesn't know a ton of those. We may work on those a bit more. 
 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 15 November 2017 - 08:57 PM.


#161 Southern Ivy

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 09:01 PM

Also, she does a really good job of removing phonological segments - "Say toothbrush. Now, say toothbrush without saying 'tooth'". She was confused the first time I asked her that, but one demonstration and she did a great job. 

I can guarantee she will not be able to segment the sounds or words or even non-words (PIG -- P-I-G)



#162 OhElizabeth

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:10 PM

If you want the CTOPP as a baseline, don't work on the stuff in it. Like do normal K5 things or whatever, but don't go doing therapy/intervention things. Not if you want a baseline.

 

That's like how I was using intervention materials for dyscalculia and the (jerk, rubbish, dork, wouldn't listen, very $$$) neuropsych goes "I can't see any math SLD"... Well hello, no joke, because I did enough intervention that it removed some of the discrepancy temporarily. Fast forward a few months, and the disability became apparent again. 

 

But seriously, it's head-whamming to intervene and then realize you did stuff that made it less clear to diagnose. RAN/RAS issues are considered a lagging indicator of dyslexia, so you'd really like to wait the whopping one month or whatever till you get the CTOPP and let her go in for the testing in her native state. Just do normal stuff, stuff she'd have in school, stuff a teacher would do.


Edited by OhElizabeth, 15 November 2017 - 10:13 PM.


#163 OhElizabeth

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 10:14 PM

The TAPS is a test of auditory processing skills that an SLP will commonly do. Ours did it on ds. I'm not a huge fan, but it would be a good one to throw in your mix if you can get it done by the SLP. My ds failed the 2nd half (the part you'd expect a dyslexic to fail) and did fine on the first half. So even mixed results can be informative. It's not a replacement for the SCAN, but it would be data.



#164 Lecka

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:08 AM

Southern Ivy -- to me that sounds good on rapid naming, but I don't actually know. I think you have your bases covered on that, though.

On TAPS -- my younger son had it when we moved here. He was 8, he has just turned 9. It helped the speech teacher write speech goals for him. But I wouldn't recommend it to other people just because my son's speech therapist at school picked it for him. I think they have their speech therapist training and knowledge that lets them pick if they want to use a test or not, or which one.

And then the purpose -- sometimes the purpose is to provide actual new information. But other times a test will just be to qualify for services, fulfill an insurance requirement, help the speech therapist make more specific goals, or measure progress.

Which is to say -- a lot of times tests will not show anything new. Either they confirm old information from a different test, or else they fit in with what a speech therapist (or whomever) has already been telling you.

The other thing about tests is they can find gaps and pinpoint things for an older child. I think sometimes when people say "oh it explained so much" it is finding gaps for an older child or pinpointing things. It doesn't mean it will be revelatory or show new information if I ask for the same test for my son.

And then sometimes I think the test doesn't give new information exactly, but it makes more sense in some way to the parent.

Anyway -- if your speech therapist thinks it would be good to do, that's good. But sometimes speech therapists want to work with parents and don't want to be dismissive, and they are nice, and they want parents' minds to be at ease, so they go ahead and run a test that is requested. But at a certain point maybe it's not necessary. I think if your speech therapist hedges on wanting to do it but says she will if you really want her to -- I would take the hint.

Therapists should be nice to parents though and understand it is a fragile time for parents. They should want your mind to be at ease. And so maybe they do go along with some things that parents want. But I think as best you can try to see if they are willing to do it, or if they think it will be helpful.

At the same time -- you are around your kids and see things -- I think it's good to bring things up and ask about things. I do think it's good. I really do. But I have also seen wild goose chases when parents have the information but they aren't fitting it together yet or it's just not what they want to hear yet. And I think too -- it's better to have some wild goose chases than to not bring something up or not follow up on something that honestly seems like it could be useful. Just -- it's something to be aware.

Oh, and I am not making any reference to the Able Kids. I actually hope to hear how it goes, my husband has relatives in Colorado Springs so it is something I can consider for my younger son! I just mean -- I wouldn't necessarily ask for TAPS and then if I did ask about it I would be open to hearing the speech therapist didn't think it would be helpful.

Edited by Lecka, 16 November 2017 - 07:23 AM.

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#165 ktgrok

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:09 AM

Also, she does a really good job of removing phonological segments - "Say toothbrush. Now, say toothbrush without saying 'tooth'". She was confused the first time I asked her that, but one demonstration and she did a great job. 

I can guarantee she will not be able to segment the sounds or words or even non-words (PIG -- P-I-G)

 

Well there you go. Can't learn to read if you can't segment words. (and can't be a good reader without being able to manipulate them even more). The good news is that things like Barton work on this explicitly. Also, Hearbuilders has games around it. Road to the Code does as well. 

 

But if she can't pass the Barton screening then you are looking at LIPS or something similar. 

 

Either way, until she has that true understanding that words break down into individual sounds/phonemes, there is no way for the brain to hold on to the idea of letters. Letters represent those sounds, and she can't hear the sounds, so yeah. Until you get the phonemic awareness skills the rest isn't going to work. 


Edited by ktgrok, 16 November 2017 - 07:13 AM.

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#166 Lecka

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 07:20 AM

I agree.

#167 Southern Ivy

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:05 AM

If you want the CTOPP as a baseline, don't work on the stuff in it. Like do normal K5 things or whatever, but don't go doing therapy/intervention things. Not if you want a baseline.

 

That's like how I was using intervention materials for dyscalculia and the (jerk, rubbish, dork, wouldn't listen, very $$$) neuropsych goes "I can't see any math SLD"... Well hello, no joke, because I did enough intervention that it removed some of the discrepancy temporarily. Fast forward a few months, and the disability became apparent again. 

 

But seriously, it's head-whamming to intervene and then realize you did stuff that made it less clear to diagnose. RAN/RAS issues are considered a lagging indicator of dyslexia, so you'd really like to wait the whopping one month or whatever till you get the CTOPP and let her go in for the testing in her native state. Just do normal stuff, stuff she'd have in school, stuff a teacher would do.

No, I'm really trying to not do much intervention. We did the flashcards for color and items one time. Definitely not a daily practice for us. I may see what shapes she knows, plus that's part of our math anyway.
We have worked on compound words before, so breaking apart wasn't hard for her at all. Definitely didn't drill her on it - but she likes doing in and she'll come up with words and ask them, then want me to ask her words.  

We have several weeks before the CTOPP. I'll just be conscious of not doing the compound word breaking. 



#168 OhElizabeth

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 01:35 PM

The TAPS is considered a screening for APD, which was why I recommended it. It's half phonological processing and gives category breakdowns in the scoring. So with us it let us discriminate issues. 

 

Well there you go. Can't learn to read if you can't segment words. (and can't be a good reader without being able to manipulate them even more). The good news is that things like Barton work on this explicitly. Also, Hearbuilders has games around it. Road to the Code does as well. 

 

But if she can't pass the Barton screening then you are looking at LIPS or something similar. 

 

Either way, until she has that true understanding that words break down into individual sounds/phonemes, there is no way for the brain to hold on to the idea of letters. Letters represent those sounds, and she can't hear the sounds, so yeah. Until you get the phonemic awareness skills the rest isn't going to work. 

Op can look through the thread, but iirc she said something that led me to think she wasn't even ready for LIPS yet. But now I can't remember. So it's true that not passing the Barton screening is a flag to intervene, but you have to back up far enough with the intervention. And now I can't remember. She must have said something that made me think that.



#169 OhElizabeth

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 01:35 PM

No, I'm really trying to not do much intervention. We did the flashcards for color and items one time. Definitely not a daily practice for us. I may see what shapes she knows, plus that's part of our math anyway.
We have worked on compound words before, so breaking apart wasn't hard for her at all. Definitely didn't drill her on it - but she likes doing in and she'll come up with words and ask them, then want me to ask her words.  

We have several weeks before the CTOPP. I'll just be conscious of not doing the compound word breaking. 

 

Oh I wouldn't worry about working on compound words. That's a normal thing to do, something that would be on K5 worksheets.


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#170 Southern Ivy

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:13 PM

The TAPS is considered a screening for APD, which was why I recommended it. It's half phonological processing and gives category breakdowns in the scoring. So with us it let us discriminate issues. 

 

Op can look through the thread, but iirc she said something that led me to think she wasn't even ready for LIPS yet. But now I can't remember. So it's true that not passing the Barton screening is a flag to intervene, but you have to back up far enough with the intervention. And now I can't remember. She must have said something that made me think that.

You might be remembering that she still doesn't know her letter sounds at all. We need to work on it some more for sure. 
 

**The Barton screening - back in June was was not able to complete the 3rd section which required multi-steps because she couldn't remember everything to do. She might be able to do it now, since they work on them in speech. Not sure. 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 16 November 2017 - 03:16 PM.


#171 ktgrok

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 03:29 PM

You might be remembering that she still doesn't know her letter sounds at all. We need to work on it some more for sure. 
 

**The Barton screening - back in June was was not able to complete the 3rd section which required multi-steps because she couldn't remember everything to do. She might be able to do it now, since they work on them in speech. Not sure. 

 

In the videos that come with level one, they do say that if they forget something you can repeat it, and help them. That it isn't about memory. So maybe email them and ask about that. 



#172 Southern Ivy

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 04:04 PM

In the videos that come with level one, they do say that if they forget something you can repeat it, and help them. That it isn't about memory. So maybe email them and ask about that. 

Her problem was that she could identify that there were different sounds, but remembering which sound was different and what color to pull down for each sound, etc etc was just way too much for her. 

I'm going to do the CTOPP, then after that, I may try the Barton screening again. I think some ADHD meds and some maturity will help her a lot. 



#173 OhElizabeth

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:39 PM

She did not pass the screening. She was iffy on the first 2 sections, but the last section was impossible. The multi-step directions just did not work with her and having to listen to the sounds, decided which color to put where each time? It was a trainwreck. I did 2 and stopped. 

(Her SLP is integrating APD listening skills into therapy right now. She's making her listen to different sounds (bell, drum) (bell, bell) (3 snaps, 4 snaps) etc and having her determine if they are the same or different. I believe they've moved on to rhythms, she's about 65% accurate on those right now. It takes a lot of concentration for her. 

 

I'm pulling this down, because this is what made me say she's not ready for LIPS. Your SLP is being thorough enough on building phonological processing that if your dd were *ready* for LIPS and Barton, she'd be doing those things. These things your SLP is doing are precursor skills. When someone can't tell whether sounds are the same or different, that's precursor. So you can't just barge forward and sell well it's a good program! Xyz is a good program and will be a good program WHEN the dc has the foundation to be ready for it. Always about the foundation, about doing enough testing to back up far enough in the process that you can connect and find the break in the sequence and start to move forward. Your SLP has found it, so you want to give some deference to this SLP. This SLP has no reason to hold your dc back. Use the SLP, talk with her, coordinate with her. That's my advice. When you've got a really good therapist, work WITH them.

 

Those skills are also covered in Earobics, btw. Well not as thoroughly. Someone else here in the thread mentioned it. We used it. It's a common rec. What your SLP is doing is great. 

 

Also, I want to connect the dots for you. One, your SLP is showing you need precursor skills. Two, you have diagnosed language delays, enough that they're intervening. So even if you get things clicking, Barton may be a tough sell. It just depends on where she's at and where the numbers are at. You're going to need to talk with your SLP. EVERYTHING YOU DO WITH HER FOR THE NEXT 13 YEARS is all going to depend on language. This is not a side rabbit trail. It is THE journey. Everything will revolve around it.

 

So, with my ds what happened was that we got the phonological processing piece but hadn't brought up the language piece. He could read, but he had no comprehension, no clue what he was reading. So then we had to go back and get GPP and other resources to work on language. Ask your SLP what you can be doing for language! GPP is simple to implement and stellar, stellar, stellar. Honestly, it tests the stuff that is on the CELF. I think it was the CELF. I've sat through so much testing my mind blurs. I just thought it was ridiculous because basically my intervention IS the stuff on the test. So if you want those scores to go up, you could get GPP. There are more sections on the CELF, so depends on what was low. Anyways you can tell. This is stuff you can do and you can work in tandem with the SLP.



#174 Southern Ivy

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 05:57 PM

GPP?



#175 OhElizabeth

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 06:10 PM

The Grammar Processing Program | Product Info



#176 OhElizabeth

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 06:11 PM

The Processing Program - Level 1 | REVISED 2nd Edition-Hardback | Product Info Actually she might do well starting here. Haven't used it myself. 

 

Super Duper has category listings, so you can search under APD and see everything they recommend. 



#177 Southern Ivy

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 08:18 PM

Omg - this kid. 
I logged into Teach Your Monster to Read to see if it taught sounds and just to kind of check it out as a fun alternative. Nothing major, really, but dd decided that she wanted to try it.
Did she learn any sounds? Nope. She did, however, notice a pattern in the testing and figured out how to still win. 

Bless it. 

 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 17 November 2017 - 08:21 PM.

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#178 OhElizabeth

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 11:29 PM

:lol: 
 

:lol:
 

:lol:
 

:lol:
 

  :lol:

 

And that's the kid they're telling you has a below average IQ, right?  :laugh:


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#179 Southern Ivy

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:30 AM

:lol: 
 

:lol:
 

:lol:
 

:lol:
 

  :lol:

 

And that's the kid they're telling you has a below average IQ, right?  :laugh:


Below average. lol
Reminder though - she did say that she wasn't sure if that was accurate due to inattentiveness, so there is that. But, yes, this is that kid that supposedly has a 76 IQ. lol 



#180 Lecka

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 08:51 AM

Of course it's not accurate.  It's literally not accurate. 

 

My older son had some testing last year and on one of the sections the tester had to count him off because she wasn't sure what he was saying because of his articulation, and to get a standardized score she couldn't give more than two prompts (or something) to repeat himself if she didn't understand what he said. 

 

So how could that be accurate?

 

Yours is the same kind of situation. 

 

They may be allowed to give something like two prompts, and know very well that if they were allowed to give a 3rd or 4th prompt or re-direct, that your daughter would do fine.

 

But that's not how standardized scores work. 

 

And in theory -- maybe not for this specific testing, but sometimes -- let's say you do some remediation and then go back and re-test.  You know it is the same testing conditions so you can compare scores.  Let's say you did try medication and her scores go up. 

 

That is just how standardized test scores are.  It is disheartening sometimes, but it is what it is, because they are standardized the testers just can't adjust even if they know the child knows the answers.  I mean, they can adjust in some ways, but my son seems to have done a lot where they can only give two prompts/re-directs, and the prompts/re-directs they are allowed to give and that is not very much. 

 

They also aren't allowed to re-explain a question even if they know the child misunderstood the question, or they're only allowed to re-explain it a certain way a certain number of times ---- but whatever it is, it is really minimal, and that is so they can get a standardized score. 

 

And then ironically it results in inaccurate standardized scores, because kids miss things they do know, but that is the way it works. 

 

Still -- this could still be helpful information, because even when things are inaccurate, people can see patterns and read between the lines, because they know how things play out in testing.  Really -- people don't just look at the scores as a score result.  Especially when there is such an obvious too-low score! 

 

Edit:  My honest opinion is you are providing a lot of supports, the speech teacher is providing a lot of supports, the OT is providing a lot of supports.  And that is why she does well!  And then in settings like pre-school where she didn't have supports she didn't do as well.  So this is a way to find out what supports she needs going forward. 

 

The speech teacher and OT may have a pretty good idea of how much more/less they provide extra structure, extra prompts to focus or re-directs, bring extra enthusiasm, make sure to be extra-engaging, etc, any thing like that they do.  Edit:  and if her pre-school wasn't well-run ----- that is something where some kids can go with the flow and do okay, and other kids really struggle more without good structure and good relationships and all of those things. 

 

As a parent you do what you need to do to meet her needs, which is natural and good to do. 

 

But you probably ARE doing nice extras that just aren't allowed on standardized testing, and don't even realize it, because it is just right for your daughter. 

 

This is really, really common anyway -- when kids do great in supported environments and then don't do as well when they aren't supported.  I don't know if it's your situation -- but it is definitely something that's common and something it could be. 

 

Edit:  And then, that doesn't even get into whether or not she understood all the questions just on an auditory level, she could have been confused from that, too. But I include that as a support, because if you repeat things or clarify things for her, that is a support, too. 

 


Edited by Lecka, 18 November 2017 - 09:06 AM.

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#181 exercise_guru

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:06 PM

In addition to above there are a few other things to consider before a child can take off in reading. Theoretically the child has been listening this enter time and has correctly interpreted all the vocabulary their caregivers introduced. It doesn't click for some kids. There are programs that work on these prereading sound skills. I know of 3 but maybe there are more.

Fast forword Is expensive but cheaper if you go through a home professional. I wish they would allow kiddos to try it for two weeks with a full refund because the minute my kid started doing it I could tell whether or not it was helping the right spots.

Fast forword works at processing and attending to individual sounds and syllable. Then it builds into supporting listening while someone reads to them. Earobics has a few sections of this but the first 4 months of fast forword are about attending and identifying sounds exclusively. Then it adds on a reading program but the sound discrimination is the heart of the program.

Hearbuilder had sections on this as well but it is implemented differently. Getting the sound into the brain to the right place and attaching meaning to that sound is definitely the foundation but there are a lot of paths to get there.

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#182 Southern Ivy

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:24 PM

Of course it's not accurate.  It's literally not accurate. 

Agree. It gutted me when she first told me, but my mom was first to say that there is no way this child has a low IQ. Then, after talking to all of you all, I know it's absolutely not correct. The notes in the report say that it's very likely not an accurate portrayal of her IQ. 

I do think that she 1) wasn't able to concentrate and 2) didn't understand. I mean, the when asked "This is a mother and daughter. They are part of a ________?" my child answered "They are cherries!" *eye roll* She was so done that she was making up answers just to finish. lol (Or she honest to goodness didn't understand what was being asked which is likely as well.) 



#183 Southern Ivy

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 01:26 PM

In addition to above there are a few other things to consider before a child can take off in reading. Theoretically the child has been listening this enter time and has correctly interpreted all the vocabulary their caregivers introduced. It doesn't click for some kids. There are programs that work on these prereading sound skills. I know of 3 but maybe there are more.

Fast forword Is expensive but cheaper if you go through a home professional. I wish they would allow kiddos to try it for two weeks with a full refund because the minute my kid started doing it I could tell whether or not it was helping the right spots.

Fast forword works at processing and attending to individual sounds and syllable. Then it builds into supporting listening while someone reads to them. Earobics has a few sections of this but the first 4 months of fast forword are about attending and identifying sounds exclusively. Then it adds on a reading program but the sound discrimination is the heart of the program.

Hearbuilder had sections on this as well but it is implemented differently. Getting the sound into the brain to the right place and attaching meaning to that sound is definitely the foundation but there are a lot of paths to get there.

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I keep forgetting to look this up! Need to go do it now!



#184 kbutton

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:21 PM

In addition to above there are a few other things to consider before a child can take off in reading. Theoretically the child has been listening this enter time and has correctly interpreted all the vocabulary their caregivers introduced. It doesn't click for some kids. 

 

Yes, yes, yes. And if she has both dyslexia and APD, she will probably need a boost in this area.

 

My son was able to fill in gaps remarkably well and then double back with reading to figure out what he wasn't hearing right, so I cannot recommend anything specific, but I have definitely heard of Fast Forward on here. 

 

You might find some creative ways to work on new vocabulary slowly and accurately when you feel like you know where she is on the listening abilities--maybe she'd need Fast Forward first, but then using ordinary things to re-learn vocabulary that's filed wrong might be helpful. This book might be a fun way to introduce new words--I am not sure how practical the words always are, but it might make it fun. Then, with the fun stuff in place, she might not mind "re-hearing" more ordinary words on purpose as she's able.

 

https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/0140559965

 

It's a sophisticated alphabet book/Spot It book in one.


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#185 exercise_guru

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 03:46 PM

Oh and truly take that IQ test as a tiny snapshot at 5 it means very very very little. There are far better tests for young kids to tease out where they need a boost. Both of my kids ere tested at 7, 8 and the third one at 9. The downside to testing late is as a parent you want to have data now for intervention but so much of the IQ test requires more maturity than age 5 would allow.

Here is an idea
Is there a pre kindergarten assessment in your community? It was free and they had my child go to 10 different professionals eyes ,speach, motor skills etc. It was at a school and one day any child pre-kindergarten could sign up. It was very very helpful. I observed and ask questions so I got more out of it than most parents. Just don't tell them you homeschool they didn't even ask me.


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#186 Southern Ivy

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 04:49 PM

Oh and truly take that IQ test as a tiny snapshot at 5 it means very very very little. There are far better tests for young kids to tease out where they need a boost. Both of my kids ere tested at 7, 8 and the third one at 9. The downside to testing late is as a parent you want to have data now for intervention but so much of the IQ test requires more maturity than age 5 would allow.

Here is an idea
Is there a pre kindergarten assessment in your community? It was free and they had my child go to 10 different professionals eyes ,speach, motor skills etc. It was at a school and one day any child pre-kindergarten could sign up. It was very very helpful. I observed and ask questions so I got more out of it than most parents. Just don't tell them you homeschool they didn't even ask me.


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DH had actually wanted her to go to school before all of this happened. She screened at the PS school and had all of those things. She had red flags for not knowing her alphabet. I actually taught in the district for several years so I knew several of the people and went over the results with them. "She won't get any services. She's too smart and not far enough behind right now." 
I spoke with one of the SPED teachers and was asking about dyslexia and was told "Yeah, that's not really likely. They don't get that until they're around 2nd grade."   Yup - they don't GET that - like it's the flu...

After that, we went to the neuropsych and it was recommended that we either red-shirt her or homeschool her...so, here we are. :) Best decision we made. 




OMG - also, just adding for anyone who cares - we are definitely going to the doctor for ADHD meds. There is no doubt in my mind she's ADHD now. Wednesday was rough. I have said that the girl I saw at the neuropsych wasn't my child, but that child showed up full force on Wednesday. Everyone working with her asked "What is going on?" I tried to get one of them to keep her, but they refused. I don't know why. ;) 



#187 OhElizabeth

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:02 PM

Yes, sometimes you're used to it and need to see the behaviors through other people's eyes. Putting her with others is probably a mixed bag. Novelty can seem to help for a while, but if they start to make demands or do anything she finds difficult, the behaviors and issues will come out. No, I would not put her with anyone not prepared to handle the level of behaviors she's likely to have in that situation. My ds can be ok with some people for a while, but in more challenging situations many people would not want to deal with that level of behavior. So you have to be realistic so that people who otherwise want to have a relationship with your dc (on her good days) can have that and not be scared or worried about their ability to be with her. With people like Grandmas, we've tended to limit the time. Younger people can usually handle more.

 

Your friend probably meant get like get it in their IEP. There's a lot that is delayed like that. Isn't to the dc's benefit. But things are changing, with earlier diagnosis and intervention becoming the norm. Thing is, she's not clearcut for dyslexia right now. She has obvious APD symptoms. You're just gonna work through it.

 

As far as the FFW software, it's a standard recommendation, but the challenge is making it happen affordably. Sometimes people get access through their school districts. So see what you can make happen. It would definitely be fine and worth doing if you can.



#188 OhElizabeth

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:04 PM

Btw, I'll say this again, but the data is that people who receive behavioral intervention and behavioral supports FIRST are more happy with the outcomes than people who begin meds first or even meds concurrently. 

 

One day is not a good snapshot and you could totally consider calling your ped office up and asking for a referral for some behavioral support while you wait. It would be more data to let her say yeah, meds are a good direction now. If your insurance would cover the behavioral intervention, it would be worth asking for the referral. 

 

My *personal* line on go to meds right now, don't look back, is safety. But as long as safety isn't the issue, I think you've got some wiggle room to try things. Especially since you have a wait for the ped appt anyway. :D



#189 Southern Ivy

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 05:32 PM

Yes, sometimes you're used to it and need to see the behaviors through other people's eyes. Putting her with others is probably a mixed bag. Novelty can seem to help for a while, but if they start to make demands or do anything she finds difficult, the behaviors and issues will come out. No, I would not put her with anyone not prepared to handle the level of behaviors she's likely to have in that situation. My ds can be ok with some people for a while, but in more challenging situations many people would not want to deal with that level of behavior. So you have to be realistic so that people who otherwise want to have a relationship with your dc (on her good days) can have that and not be scared or worried about their ability to be with her. With people like Grandmas, we've tended to limit the time. Younger people can usually handle more.

 

Your friend probably meant get like get it in their IEP. There's a lot that is delayed like that. Isn't to the dc's benefit. But things are changing, with earlier diagnosis and intervention becoming the norm. Thing is, she's not clearcut for dyslexia right now. She has obvious APD symptoms. You're just gonna work through it.

 

As far as the FFW software, it's a standard recommendation, but the challenge is making it happen affordably. Sometimes people get access through their school districts. So see what you can make happen. It would definitely be fine and worth doing if you can.

I certainly hope that's what she meant, but she said "I doubt it's dyslexia. They don't get that until 2nd grade." So, that's kinda questionable... ;) 

As far as Fast ForWord - I can guarantee our district doesn't have anything. Missouri isn't even required to provide accommodations (correction) SCREENINGS for dyslexia until next school year. 
A former coworker is having her son tested for dyslexia this year and when she was talking to the principal about what would happen if he did have it, the principal said "Nothing, really. We have nothing for them." 
My teaching mentor's daughter has dyslexia and is in high school now, but they've had to outsource since elementary. 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 18 November 2017 - 07:05 PM.


#190 OhElizabeth

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 06:11 PM

:glare:   Surely that's a violation of federal law, even if they aren't violating their state law. That's OUTRAGEOUS.

 

Unfortunately, for some things, court cases are how you change things.

SaveSave


Edited by OhElizabeth, 18 November 2017 - 06:11 PM.


#191 Southern Ivy

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:03 PM

:glare:   Surely that's a violation of federal law, even if they aren't violating their state law. That's OUTRAGEOUS.

 

Unfortunately, for some things, court cases are how you change things.

SaveSave

Missouri is so behind the times with things like this. 

*correcting my comment above. I meant screenings - they don't even do screenings. They provide accommodations, but they don't know what the real problem is*

So, I had a 4th grader who couldn't read to save his life. He was so stinking smart - he could ace all his tests if I read them to him. If he read them? He would miss every single one. 
His mom, another teacher, had been fighting since 1st grade to have testing done. She was talked out of it multiple times - "He's so smart. He's get it soon." Soon never came until she raised hell. He was only tested in the school system. 
I have no doubt he had dyslexia or some other vision issue. All he received was the same remediation that the other SPED kids received - some computer program that helped him to read, but not much. 

So, yeah, in regards to IDEA, they are providing accommodations. However, they currently don't do screenings specifically for dyslexia and certainly don't have the training or programs in place to help these kids. 

And yay - the new law will mandate that teachers receive a whole 2-hour training on methods to address dyslexia. I mean, it's better than nothing, but geez. 


Edited by Southern Ivy, 18 November 2017 - 07:04 PM.


#192 Lecka

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Posted 18 November 2017 - 07:49 PM

We moved last year, but used to live in a nice school district in Kansas. My older son -- I knew something was wrong partway through K, and then by the summer was doing some things to actually help, and he started private speech, etc.

Anyway, he did read on grade level part way through 2nd grade and then he was reading well part way through 3rd grade.

This whole time I knew someone whose son also had trouble reading. I promise he was less severe than my son just bc my son's speech. This boy did also have ADHD but his mom handled it extremely well. But she didn't want to do anything outside school, she thought it was too much stress on him (which is fair). He got some piddly intervention through school. My son got some piddly intervention through school but also I feel like school really helped him in 1st/2nd grade.

But my friend's son (my son's classmate) did not make much progress. Finally he went to summer school 2 hours/day the summers between 4th/5th and 5th/6th and he got serious tutoring then.

So after years of going "they just aren't actually doing much for him to make progress" finally he made serious progress at that point.

But my son had already been reading well and didn't have to deal with being behind at those older ages where it is harder.

His handwriting has been an issue but when that is the only thing, it isn't so bad.

But yes it is frustrating! And really hopefully your daughter does get good intervention and doesn't have to deal with this, but that doesn't change it for other kids, and it is such a waste.

But in the end my friend's son did get help through school! It just seemed to be at a glacial pace.

If your daughter has more of a dyslexia profile I have hope things will be a lot less severe in a lot of ways as far as the auditory issues. Not to minimize and it is frustrating for sure, but I have a son on the autism spectrum also, and the auditory and language issues there are just a whole different can of worms.

The thing with auditory processing I think is that for some it is just auditory processing, for some it is related to dyslexia, and then for some it is related to autism. And then I think you will hear things from all three perspectives.

It is strange to say "just dyslexia" as it is a lot to deal with, but personally I think it is a lot more limited in scope than autism.

Autism is considered global, but dyslexia is a specific learning disability, with a lot of strengths and then just some weaknesses. There can be strengths with autism too, but it is just more global I think.

Another thing to keep in mind with auditory processing. There are some people who do not want an autism diagnosis or an ADHD diagnosis. They just don't want it, there is some stigma or the diagnostic criteria has changed a lot for autism in the last 10-15 years.

So it's like, some kids really truly just have auditory processing difficulties. But then there are kids who either also or primarily have autism or maybe ADHD, but their parents won't deal with it, or people doing diagnosis are people going "he makes eye contact so he can't have autism" or "he has a deep emotional connection to his family he can't have autism" even though that is not where the autism diagnosis has gone in the past 10-15 years."

It just muddies the waters sometimes with some things, and auditory processing is one where I think you have to keep in mind, some kids may really have a different primary diagnosis but the parents don't mention it or don't have a 2017-style diagnosis.

And yes it is that subjective lol. But that's how it is. I think they (psychologists) do a good job of deciding what framework to use to group people into different diagnoses, but it is very subjective in some ways and it changes over time.

When I just had my oldest son and I saw "right brain learner" stuff I thought "right brain learner" basically meant a dyslexia profile, and I would think some things were so bizarre.

Then I realized "right brain learner" can also be code for autism and then so many things clicked and made sense.

But some people talk about "right brain learner" and mean dyslexia, some mean autism profile, and some mean just a personality/learning style, maybe some mean ADHD; it is confusing if you think it just means one of these, but really people mean different things. And it is still useful if you are sifting through the information so it applies to your child as well as possible.

Edited by Lecka, 18 November 2017 - 08:23 PM.

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#193 exercise_guru

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Posted Yesterday, 04:09 AM



The thing with auditory processing I think is that for some it is just auditory processing, for some it is related to dyslexia, and then for some it is related to autism. And then I think you will hear things from all three perspectives.

It is strange to say "just dyslexia" as it is a lot to deal with, but personally I think it is a lot more limited in scope than autism.

Autism is considered global, but dyslexia is a specific learning disability, with a lot of strengths and then just some weaknesses. There can be strengths with autism too, but it is just more global I think.

Another thing to keep in mind with auditory processing. There are some people who do not want an autism diagnosis or an ADHD diagnosis. They just don't want it, there is some stigma or the diagnostic criteria has changed a lot for autism in the last 10-15 years.

So it's like, some kids really truly just have auditory processing difficulties. But then there are kids who either also or primarily have autism or maybe ADHD, but their parents won't deal with it, or people doing diagnosis are people going "he makes eye contact so he can't have autism" or "he has a deep emotional connection to his family he can't have autism" even though that is not where the autism diagnosis has gone in the past 10-15 years."

It just muddies the waters sometimes with some things, and auditory processing is one where I think you have to keep in mind, some kids may really have a different primary diagnosis but the parents don't mention it or don't have a 2017-style diagnosis.

And yes it is that subjective lol..


This post is full of so much wisdom. All of these symptoms show up as spices in a soup and we are trying to figure out what they mean and more importantly how to help these kids. And you are right about the stigmas and trying to sort out what is what. For example many of the kids who present with auditory processing like my son and my nephew had severe ear infections when young so likely with them CAPD is in its purest form and not tangled with another diagnosis .  Auditory Processing is a huge element in learning so it does show up in SPD, ADHD. What is troubling is if a child is only meeting 8 out of 10 on a diagnosis and yet they can really get no help. Or they have multiple diagnosis and not a clear treatment path.

I also live in an area where there is little screening and accommodations are dependent on the persistence of the parent and the quality of the school.

This is why many of us homeschool and in my case do home therapy because we feel like we are the best hope for our kids.


Edited by exercise_guru, Today, 11:28 AM.