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Is this possible or almost certainly an error? Test result


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#1 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:41 AM

According to the paper in my hand (which I did not have a chance to look at when speaking to the psychologist), my 10yo 6th grader, who used to love doing puzzles since she was 1, currently assembles engineering kits etc. independently for fun, and has no apparent learning difficulties, scored a zero on the "visual puzzles" section of the WISC-V.  As a result her overall Visual Spatial score was "extremely low" and this affected her overall composite score.

 

A zero?  Is that even possible?  I suspect a clerical error.  But maybe you guys could talk me out of it ....



#2 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:50 AM

(I just left a voice mail for the psychologist to see what she says about it.)



#3 EKS

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:19 AM

Maybe it should have been a 10 but the one got left off?

Edited by EKS, 07 November 2017 - 10:20 AM.


#4 Arcadia

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:33 AM

Look at page 58-61 http://www.myschoolp....14-Handout.pdf

I don’t think it’s possible to get a zero. Do you think your daughter somehow had three consecutive scores of 0 at the beginning of the test?

“Discontinue after 3 consecutive scores of 0” page 59 same link

#5 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:34 AM

Well I got a call back - "oh I have to apologize, there was an error, we ran more than one version, I think, um ... I thought I gave you the right version, I'm not sure,  I'll get back to you later in the week.  Erm... when did I give you my cell phone number?"

 

"But the important thing is to think about how to deal with the issues that she has, I can help you get accommodations when she needs them ...."

 

Really ....


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#6 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:45 AM

Look at page 58-61 http://www.myschoolp....14-Handout.pdf

I don’t think it’s possible to get a zero. Do you think your daughter somehow had three consecutive scores of 0 at the beginning of the test?

“Discontinue after 3 consecutive scores of 0” page 59 same link

 

Hmm, they don't go back to an easier one if the kid can't get the age-appropriate ones?

What if the kid needs more than 20 seconds to get it?  Score is zero?  Does the kid know there is a time limit?

 

Still seems strange.  Seems pretty unhelpful to score zero if the kid is, say, 2/3 years behind.



#7 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 10:49 AM

Really wishing I never went down this testing path ....


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#8 EKS

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 03:07 PM

I remember a poster on here ages ago (KPzz, I think) said that if the test scores don't match the child you know, then there is something wrong with the scores.  You would know if your child had such a problem with tasks like the visual puzzles tasks (to the point of her getting a zero) without needing a test to tell you.


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#9 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 03:45 PM

I remember a poster on here ages ago (KPzz, I think) said that if the test scores don't match the child you know, then there is something wrong with the scores.  You would know if your child had such a problem with tasks like the visual puzzles tasks (to the point of her getting a zero) without needing a test to tell you.

 

Yeah ... I was tempted to tell the psych why I thought the low score seemed wrong (this was before I realized it was a zero) - I mean we were there because I wanted to see if she qualified for the gifted program, partly based on the things she's always been able to do.  On thing that sticks out in my memory was when she was 21 months old and I was assembling a household item.  She walked over, picked up a loose part, and immediately inserted it in exactly the place and position it needed to go - while I was busy telling her to get out of the way of my grown-up work.  But yeah - zero visual spatial abilities.  Complete lack of nonverbal skills.  :p

 

But I didn't argue because I figured she'd think, "yeah, everyone wants their kid to be a genius.  Mom in denial."

 

Eventually I did mention that none of that sounded like my kid, but she's the expert don't you know!

 

She is certain I'll be lobbying for accommodations at school in the near future.

 

(I mean, maybe my kid does have some shortcomings in the visual spatial area, but my confidence in the test is about zero right now.  So much for the 6 months and $$$ I've put behind that bright idea.)



#10 EKS

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:28 PM

Eventually I did mention that none of that sounded like my kid, but she's the expert don't you know!

 

Is it possible that you got some other kid's report and that the psychologist is confused about who's who?  Seriously--test results should have you nodding, not thinking that you've stepped into an alternative universe.


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#11 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:33 PM

Is it possible that you got some other kid's report and that the psychologist is confused about who's who?  Seriously--test results should have you nodding, not thinking that you've stepped into an alternative universe.

 

Honestly, I don't know what to think about this lady.  Even my kids think she's a little off.

 

But that did happen to me once, sort of.  My other kid was 6 and went to a developmental pediatrician for reasons irrelevant here.  Ped sent me a detailed report of her findings.  About halfway through the report, it starts talking about head circumference and then "she can pull herself up to a standing position but is not yet cruising."  Hmmm.  I had no idea where my kid's report stopped and some baby's report began.  :p

 

Seriously, with this psych, I checked the name and birth date while we were still in the office because the result didn't ring true.  I thought maybe they made her older or ???

 

Which brings up another thing.  I thought IQ was mental age over chronological age.  So there were two sections where the average "age equivalent" was over 15yo, which would give a quotient close to 150, but the score and percentile did not fit with that.  So color me confused.  I should be able to ask the psych about this, but I don't trust her at this point.



#12 mathnerd

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 05:46 PM

Sounds unprofessional. I believe that the report is completely messed up - maybe her assistant or office personnel plugged in the wrong numbers or maybe the score belongs to another child or maybe the lady forgot to do the "visual puzzles" section completely.

 

Since your daughter is in middle school without any accommodations so far, I find it really difficult to believe that any of the subsections in her test would have a zero score. Ask the psychologist to refer to her testing notes that she wrote during the test, ask her to rewrite the report if needed. Also tell her that you need to apply to some programs (like DYS) where the scores matter and that she needs to carefully recheck her work. 



#13 Arcadia

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 06:04 PM

Which brings up another thing. I thought IQ was mental age over chronological age. So there were two sections where the average "age equivalent" was over 15yo, which would give a quotient close to 150, but the score and percentile did not fit with that. So color me confused. I should be able to ask the psych about this, but I don't trust her at this point.


Link is a sample WISC-V report. The visual puzzles section wasn’t used to calculate FSIQ. How did your daughter do for Block Design? If she score well for Block Design and the Visual Puzzle score is not used for FSIQ, then it won’t pull the FSIQ score down.
https://images.pears...core-Report.pdf

#14 Have kids -- will travel

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:55 PM

Which brings up another thing.  I thought IQ was mental age over chronological age.  So there were two sections where the average "age equivalent" was over 15yo, which would give a quotient close to 150, but the score and percentile did not fit with that.  So color me confused.  I should be able to ask the psych about this, but I don't trust her at this point.

 

IQ was indeed originally designed as mental age over chronological age, multiplied by 100. That is no longer the case.

 

Modern IQ tests are standardized tests, with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 15. This means that raw scores are converted into standard scores, using data from thousands of test subjects to arrive on the mean and standard deviation. This data uses age in that the test subject's standard score is derived from a comparison to other children with that same age. As a result, a child can get the highest available standard score without answering everything correct (for example for a younger child taking a test) or a child can get every single test item correct and still not get the highest available standard score (for example a child taking a test very near the age ceiling).

 

There is an extremely knowledgable test expert who posts regularly on a public forum (Davidson). If you post your IQ test questions there, you will get the best answers available online. 



#15 Megbo

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 09:56 PM

Was the zero listed as a "raw score" or a "scaled score"? 

 

A raw score of zero is possible, but the lowest possible scaled score is 1. Either way, it's an error of some sort. If your daughter got a raw score of zero, she clearly didn't understand the task and the psychologist should have found another way to assess her visual-spatial skills rather than just report "extremely low". If there's a zero listed as a scaled score, that has to be a clerical error. 



#16 4kookiekids

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:08 PM

Is it possible that you got some other kid's report and that the psychologist is confused about who's who?  Seriously--test results should have you nodding, not thinking that you've stepped into an alternative universe.

 

Yes to this. I remember being annoyed at some of the way tests went (some of ours, it was pathetically, painfully, obvious that my child didn't understand what he was being asked to do, but the script kept getting read without even a moment's hesitation regardless, but when I observed these situations, it wasn't part of a WISC since they didn't allow me to observe that one), but my husband and I both felt like most things in the report just made sense when we thought about our kid.



#17 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:22 PM

Was the zero listed as a "raw score" or a "scaled score"? 

 

A raw score of zero is possible, but the lowest possible scaled score is 1. Either way, it's an error of some sort. If your daughter got a raw score of zero, she clearly didn't understand the task and the psychologist should have found another way to assess her visual-spatial skills rather than just report "extremely low". If there's a zero listed as a scaled score, that has to be a clerical error. 

 

It was a raw score of zero.

 

I mentioned this to my daughter this evening.  She said "I did great on that test."  In her opinion, the number of puzzles she solved in less than 20 seconds was definitely more than zero.  :p



#18 SKL

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 11:56 PM

Link is a sample WISC-V report. The visual puzzles section wasn’t used to calculate FSIQ. How did your daughter do for Block Design? If she score well for Block Design and the Visual Puzzle score is not used for FSIQ, then it won’t pull the FSIQ score down.
https://images.pears...core-Report.pdf

 

Block design was also supposedly below average, as was coding (processing speed).  But within a range where it could have been her being distracted or whatever.

 

I see several other things that make no sense.  For one, in the verbal section the age equivalent of 14:6 and 14:10 get a scaled score of 14, but in the fluid reasoning section 14:10 gets a scaled score of 11 and 63%ile.  (Kid's age was 10:8 so if 14:10 is accurate then I don't think that is 63%ile.)  Another FR subtest is  ">16:10" age equivalent but only 91 %ile.



#19 Arcadia

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 12:42 AM

Block design was also supposedly below average, as was coding (processing speed). But within a range where it could have been her being distracted or whatever.


How fast is her fine motor skills, hand eye coordination? Both block design and Coding is timed if I don’t recall wrongly. My older was much faster than my younger when it comes to seeing and doing. The tester also realizes my younger knew the answer but was slower to get the answer down.

#20 Megbo

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 12:56 AM

Block design was also supposedly below average, as was coding (processing speed).  But within a range where it could have been her being distracted or whatever.

 

I see several other things that make no sense.  For one, in the verbal section the age equivalent of 14:6 and 14:10 get a scaled score of 14, but in the fluid reasoning section 14:10 gets a scaled score of 11 and 63%ile.  (Kid's age was 10:8 so if 14:10 is accurate then I don't think that is 63%ile.)  Another FR subtest is  ">16:10" age equivalent but only 91 %ile.

 

Age equivalent refers to the age at which an exactly average child (50th percentile) will score the same as your child on a particular subtest, so they can vary between subtests even if the scaled scores are the same. For example, Ds9 had a higher scaled score on Vocabulary than on Visual Puzzles, but his age equivalent was higher for Visual Puzzles. It sounds like there are some errors in your report, but this isn't necessarily one. 



#21 Have kids -- will travel

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 01:00 AM

Block design was also supposedly below average, as was coding (processing speed).  But within a range where it could have been her being distracted or whatever.

 

I see several other things that make no sense.  For one, in the verbal section the age equivalent of 14:6 and 14:10 get a scaled score of 14, but in the fluid reasoning section 14:10 gets a scaled score of 11 and 63%ile.  (Kid's age was 10:8 so if 14:10 is accurate then I don't think that is 63%ile.)  Another FR subtest is  ">16:10" age equivalent but only 91 %ile.

 

The way to read the report is to understand that the raw score is converted to a scaled score through comparison to children of the same age in such a way that converts the raw score into a score with an average of 10 and a mean of 3. Knowing those numbers, you can easily calculate the percentile rank based off of that. All scaled scores of 11 will get a 63% rank, and all scaled scores of 14 will get a 91% rank. 

 

Age equivalent scores means that the raw score received by was similar to the average child at the age given for the age equivalent. That means that the raw score your daughter got in the verbal section to earn a scaled score of 14 would have been equivalent to a scaled score of 10 for a fourteen-year-old. The scaled score of 11 with an age equivalent of 14 seems off. It's possible it's a mistake, but it's also possibly correct for that subtest. The age equivalents have no bearing on the FSIQ, but any mistake would make you question the integrity of the rest of the report.

 

16:11 is the highest age for which the WISC was standardized, so >16:10 is the highest age equivalent. Your daughter's scaled score was then 14, since the percentile ranks are just a one-to-one correlation with the percentiles based on the mean and standard deviation, and the raw score obtained is higher than the average raw score for the highest normed group. 

 

The two glaring issues are the subtest with a 0 raw score and the scaled score of 11 with an age equivalent of 14:10. The child could have misunderstood the directions, or the test administrator could have failed to properly direct her. You're right that it's strange and seems off. You'll need to ask the psychologist directly about that. The scaled score of 11 with a high equivalent could be accurate, but it's worth asking about. It should all be listed in tables, so it's a trivial thing to check if you have the tables. 



#22 SKL

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 01:00 AM

How fast is her fine motor skills, hand eye coordination? Both block design and Coding is timed if I don’t recall wrongly. My older was much faster than my younger when it comes to seeing and doing. The tester also realizes my younger knew the answer but was slower to get the answer down.

 

She's not the best with motor skills.  For example, playing ball sports she usually misses because the ball comes before she has time to decide what to do.  She's pretty messy in general.  She can write legibly and draw nicely if she tries.  She is a very very tactile person.  Learned to tie shoes at age 3 and knit at age 5.  Seems to do well with video games.  I really don't know how she compares with her age mates, but she gets by.

 

She did do some vision therapy at one point.  I'm not sure if vision could be a factor.  More likely she was stressed out by the timed aspect of the tests.  She does not test well compared to her actual ability, which is why I thought getting an individualized outside test made sense.



#23 Arcadia

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 01:11 AM

She did do some vision therapy at one point. I'm not sure if vision could be a factor. More likely she was stressed out by the timed aspect of the tests. She does not test well compared to her actual ability, which is why I thought getting an individualized outside test made sense.


At the time my younger boy did the WISC-IV, he had mild tracking (vision) issues. His scores was still high enough to show a visual spatial strength just that he would likely have very similar scores to older kid for visual spatial if he did not have the tracking issues.

#24 eternalsummer

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 04:33 AM

Well, it's still a test.  Handwriting speed and legibility does impact some of the sections as they involve drawing/writing and are timed.



#25 dmmetler

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:36 AM

Some sections have low ceilings. The one with a top score being 91% would be an example. I think it was the SAT-10 where it was quite literally not possible to get a CTY qualifying score on the kindergarten test because perfect scores were below the 95% on so many sub-sections, with one being something like 75%. When I called CTY, the response was "oh, that's just the way that test is, and yes, she qualifies".

I wonder if your DD was having fun with the puzzles and didn't realize time mattered? DD did that on the eIMACS placement test-she was having such fun with the traffic puzzles and trying out different combinations that she barely qualified based on the number done in the 30 minute limit-but actually had gotten almost all of them correct, often on the first try. She just wanted to play, and did so by hitting "try again".

FWIW, I have a similar level of discrepancy on those sorts of subtests, but for me, it was more a relief than anything else. It explains a lot.

#26 SKL

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 08:53 AM

Yeah, I just don't know which numbers to believe at this point, which means I am skeptical about all of it.  If the psych fixes the obvious things, the rest of it is still the work product of someone who would make those kinds of mistakes.



#27 SKL

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Posted Today, 12:53 PM

Well nobody called me back "later in the week" so I finally called them on Friday - 10 days later.  Of course they took a message and the lady called me back (blocking her number this time lol) and left a voice mail encouraging me to make another appointment to discuss "what I don't understand" about the test.

 

I almost never complain formally about anything, but I think this calls for some action on my part.  Tell me if this is unreasonable:

 

1) I will not make another appointment nor pay for any more services as I have gotten no satisfaction.  Part of me wants to ask for my money back.

 

2) I want email access so we can stop this annoying phone tag.

 

3) I want to email the test paper with circles around the clear errors I identified.  Then I want them to either find or make the correct test results and email the corrected report to me.  I don't need another explanation.

 

4) I also want a copy of all the psych's handwritten notes, which she promised to give me but never did.

 

5) I want all of this within a week.

 

6) If they can't do this then I either want my money back or I want them to do another kind of intelligence test for free (and do it right this time, and have someone other than the current psych do it).


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#28 eternalsummer

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Posted Today, 04:06 PM

I would want all of those things too.  You paid for a product, it was done incorrectly, you haven't gotten satisfaction regarding fixing the errors or even clarifying exactly which parts of the test were in error.  They owe you a refund or a redo, pronto.  I don't know who you'd complain to if you can't get a good result, though.