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Another shooting in San Antonio at a church :(


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#101 Twolittleboys

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:57 AM

I do accept that any activity includes some risk. Every time we step outside our door (and even at home) there is some danger - natural disasters, crime, diseases, accidents happen. This does not bother me - it is part of life. But I will be ---- before I take a gun to church (if i lived somewhere this is even possible). An armed security guard outside/at the door in a dangerous neighborhood is one thing but parishioners (or priests!) carrying a gun is something I can not stomach. 


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#102 Dotwithaperiod

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:58 AM

Maybe just skip church altogether. Meet at the gun range, shout Jesus once in a while, and call it worship.

Problem solved! To think that some are twisting in circles to justify whipping out their guns in a House of God is tragic. Remember the whole guns, God, and country flap? That's the USA. God's on Our Side, never forget.
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#103 Arctic Mama

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 10:58 AM

I've never understood this. Why isn't it the time? Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements. Why is this gross? It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.


Because it isn’t about saving lives - if it were there are many effective ways to do that in larger number than firearms laws, of which there are MANY. It’s a political power grab and pure opportunism. I think the same thing about always ranting over immigration when there is a terrorist attack. There are effective methods of profiling to catch a good number of these people, but they aren’t implemented for various and sundry political reasons even when they have proved effective in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other such countries.

It’s always the same, and the blame always somehow gets shifted to the culture and the laws and the millions of people who DIDNT shoot anyone. Because that makes people feel like they have some power, even though it is now directed against their peaceful neighbor. It’s an illusion, to put it kindly. There are other words.

As I said, I’m not addressing this. It’s not worth the wasted typing to do for the 1001th time.
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#104 OhElizabeth

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:01 AM

Texas is a big place and there are all sorts of people who live here. We're actually in the middle of the pack of states for gun ownership:

 

https://www.thoughtc...lations-3325153

 

We have signs up at the entrance of many stores and restaurants specifically banning firearms from the premises. 

 

It's also illegal to lock the doors at public places while they're open due to fire codes. So schools, churches, stores, libraries etc. have to have their doors open while they are open for business.

 

That's interesting. I hadn't seen data on that. I just had this impression from the news and the way they talk about "Texas" that it was much higher. Thanks

 

It totally makes sense to me that someone has an opinion about how they want this handled in their church. Churches have positions on pacifism, how they react to things, etc., so that's their business. But if a church has no plan *merely because the leadership didn't stop to think about it* well that's not where I would be. At least be intentional. And even if you were of a no arms or had some very specific positions (turn the other cheek, pacifist, whatever), reality is you'd PROBABLY have some safety plans you WOULD be comfortable with. 



#105 OH_Homeschooler

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:02 AM

I've never understood this.  Why isn't it the time?  Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements.  Why is this gross?  It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.  

 

I agree with you--I think the actual murder of innocent people is far worse, more gross, and more horrific than the discussion of how to stop it from happening in the future. But maybe that's just me.


Edited by OH_Homeschooler, 06 November 2017 - 11:08 AM.

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#106 Bluegoat

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:03 AM

Bingo. Absolutely the pastor could be packing heat. Churches now are assigning and know who is packing heat at a given service. And if the shooter was able to WALK IN, then they AREN'T FOLLOWING a safety plan. Safety plans include things like security for the doors, locking the doors so that people can exit but not enter, having people stationed, having cameras. 

 

 

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks. 

 Why would people plan to come to church thinking they might need, or even want, to shoot someone?

 

To anyone in a country that is not the US, and also doesn't happen to be some kind of war zone, that sounds insane.  A pastor "packing heat" sounds insane - in many Christian churches, priests are not allowed to kill anyone, and a person who has killed cannot become a priest.

 

Going to church, or any other place, without a firearm, doesn't make you a sitting duck unless you are in a seriously sick society.  I am guessing most people don't think they are in a seriously sick society, and don't want to contribute to thinking that way either.


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#107 Arctic Mama

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:03 AM

Problem solved! To think that some are twisting in circles to justify whipping out their guns in a House of God is tragic. Remember the whole guns, God, and country flap? That's the USA. God's on Our Side, never forget.


God’s judgment is well deserved against every single one of us, American or not. Never forget. Repent. You can kill the body a millions ways, but that’s not what we should really be afraid of, so much as transgressing against a Holy God again and again and again. The consequences of that are a lot more far reaching that one short lifetime.

I personally detest the god/country confluence. But I believe God saves a people for himself from every tongue and nation, and there is nothing particularly special about the US if it departs from the principles gleaned from wisdom and with an eye on the inherent limits of government on a people bent toward immorality as a group. It’s not going to get less ugly without massive repentance by millions of people.

I’m sure this is falling on deaf ears. But it is also the truest thing I can say.
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#108 OhElizabeth

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:04 AM

... An armed security guard outside/at the door in a dangerous neighborhood is one thing but parishioners (or priests!) carrying a gun is something I can not stomach. 

 

This is not about you personally but just replying because several people have said that. If you're in these places, it's already happening. It's concealed carry, therefore you may not realize it. Women are doing it, men are doing it. Licensures are up and therefore very possibly the rates are up.



#109 Tibbie Dunbar

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:06 AM

When I was a child, I was taken to a super fundamentalist type church where we were frequently told we might grow up to have to face death for our faith. The minister would say something like, "Imagine armed men coming in here while we worship, ready to start shooting in the pews. They say if we will renounce Christ, they won't kill us. What will you do? Will you deny Him?" And every Sunday, someone would pray a prayer of thanks that we could "worship unmolested and without fear, in a free country."

That was in the 80s in a small, Midwestern farming community. Nobody was coming, but I grew up scared that they would because our ministers made it sound almost imminent...I've attended church services nearly every Sunday for four decades but I've never once walked through the doors without thinking of the sitting duck aspect of open assemblies. It's a brief thought, I feel the same in movie theaters, I swallow it down and go on.

Here's the point: If my childhood church's scare tactics have come true, only it's not communists, it's us, I could choose not to assemble for worship, education, entertainment, or political rallies. I could be safe at home. But my children will never make that choice! They want to go to college. One of them works in an urban church. They want to go to movies and football games and so on; they want to live their lives.

The answer is not the Wild West, nor Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. The answer is not that everyone should be heavily armed, and locked into their churches, synagogues, and mosques. We are neither pre- nor post-civilization! We have a government in place. We could make changes that are researched, proven, and even moderate in scope, that would begin to turn the tide.

That's what I want. We've been praying for a long time. And if we become more isolated as a people, we will die from that. We need to live our lives in safety and peace, with the support of a government that has functioned as it should to ensure the safety of innocent citizens.
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#110 Plum Crazy

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:07 AM

Why can't we both mourn the dead and discuss what we can do to prevent this in the future? Are we not capable of holding both of those thoughts in our minds and hearts? What makes it so disrespectful to want to make it so no one ever has to experience this pain again? 


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#111 Danae

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:08 AM

Because it isn’t about saving lives - if it were there are many effective ways to do that in larger number than firearms laws, of which there are MANY. It’s a political power grab and pure opportunism.


Think about what you're saying here for a minute. You are accusing the people right here, on this forum, of lying about their motives. Do you really think that everyone here who is advocating for changes in gun laws after mass shootings doesn't really care about the people who just died? We're indifferent to the deaths, or maybe even secretly happy that we have an excuse for a political power grab?
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#112 Barb_

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:10 AM

I've never understood this. Why isn't it the time? Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements. Why is this gross? It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.


This is exactly the time. This horrible thing happened. People wonder why--we all cast about for patterns, for answers. It's natural to want to discuss the reasons for tragedies and try to figure out ways to avoid similar tragedies playing out again and again.

What is gross is the culture of violence in this country. The idea that preachers, preschool teachers, scout leaders and grocery managers may feel the need to carry weapons to work in order to meet potential threat is abhorrent to me. Every time this happens, calls for MORE GUNS go out, purchases increase, and violence escalates. Why did no one think it was odd that this guy posted a semi-automatic to his social media? The coolness factor? The myob, hands off, no questions asked undercurrent when it comes to weapons? Why don't we take violent threats seriously? Why do we act surprised again and again when men who beat their wives go on to mow down dozens? That is the fundamental problem with our culture.
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#113 OH_Homeschooler

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:13 AM

This is exactly the time. This horrible thing happened. People wonder why--we all cast about for patterns, for answers. It's natural to want to discuss the reasons for tragedies and try to figure out ways to avoid similar tragedies playing out again and again.

What is gross is the culture of violence in this country. The idea that preachers, preschool teachers, scout leaders and grocery managers may feel the need to carry weapons to work in order to meet potential threat is abhorrent to me. Every time this happens, calls for MORE GUNS go out, purchases increase, and violence escalates. Why did no one think it was odd that this guy posted a semi-automatic to his social media? The coolness factor? The myob, hands off, no questions asked undercurrent when it comes to weapons? Why don't we take violent threats seriously? Why do we act surprised again and again when men who beat their wives go on to mow down dozens? That is the fundamental problem with our culture.

 

And it's so convenient that just when it might become acceptable after a mass shooting to start talking about solutions (haha, right), there's another mass shooting. So it begins again. Everyone hush! Now's not the time!

 

It's really the perfect argument from the NRA's perspective. 


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#114 8circles

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:14 AM

God’s judgment is well deserved against every single one of us, American or not. Never forget. Repent. You can kill the body a millions ways, but that’s not what we should really be afraid of, so much as transgressing against a Holy God again and again and again. The consequences of that are a lot more far reaching that one short lifetime.

I personally detest the god/country confluence. But I believe God saves a people for himself from every tongue and nation, and there is nothing particularly special about the US if it departs from the principles gleaned from wisdom and with an eye on the inherent limits of government on a people bent toward immorality as a group. It’s not going to get less ugly without massive repentance by millions of people.

I’m sure this is falling on deaf ears. But it is also the truest thing I can say.

 

Wow - lots of code words in there. I hear you, loud and clear.

 

You can't bother with saving lives from gun violence because Americans are going down the path of immorality. Gay marriage and abortion are the big ones, but also because of "Happy Holidays", Grey's Anatomy & Game of Thrones. A pastor clued me in to those evils. True story. All proof that we are "a people bent toward immorality as a group". So we all suffer until Jesus comes. But at least we have our guns.


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#115 Butter

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:14 AM

USA Today is reporting that the perpetrator's inlaws belonged to this church. I think we have a motive.

 

That was reported locally yesterday.  Sure sounds like motive to me.

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks. 

 

Did you just seriously blame people praying at a church for getting themselves killed???

 

Yeah, I didn't mean anything personal. These attacks have been in the news enough for the past few years that churches around here have had plans in place for a number of years already. I was just surprised that in TEXAS they didn't have plans in place. TEXAS, where they're always talking about their guns and how they value order.

 

There are a lot of things people think about Texas and guns.  Many of those things are kind of urban legends and just plain not true.  We don't have the easiest gun laws in the country.  We're about in the middle.  We don't have the highest gun ownership.  We're about in the middle.  Texas is a gigantic state with an extremely varied population.


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#116 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:16 AM

Yeah, I'm sure our church has some sort of security plan, but we do not lock our doors during services.

 

I don't agree that we're to the point where every church needs to behave as if an attack is imminent.  I could understand it in an area where gun violence is significant etc.  But every small rural church?  No.



#117 Bluegoat

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:18 AM

Because it isn’t about saving lives - if it were there are many effective ways to do that in larger number than firearms laws, of which there are MANY. It’s a political power grab and pure opportunism. I think the same thing about always ranting over immigration when there is a terrorist attack. There are effective methods of profiling to catch a good number of these people, but they aren’t implemented for various and sundry political reasons even when they have proved effective in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other such countries.

It’s always the same, and the blame always somehow gets shifted to the culture and the laws and the millions of people who DIDNT shoot anyone. Because that makes people feel like they have some power, even though it is now directed against their peaceful neighbor. It’s an illusion, to put it kindly. There are other words.

As I said, I’m not addressing this. It’s not worth the wasted typing to do for the 1001th time.

 

I think you are so focused on what you think the one hand is doing (political power grab by government) you are missing that the other hand is doing some pretty fancy card tricks.

 

Government action is typically to balance actions by other elements in the state - it could be individuals, institutions, business, whatever.  Those things act in their own or some limited interest - and government has to balance that so it doesn't overwhelm the interest of the state and the people in general.  So with pollution, say, they balance the power of people who might pollute because it is cheaper, which hurts many other citizens and the interests of the state.

 

This means that the more power these elements have, the more power the state needs to be able to balance them - generally it's a good idea to keep both somewhat, but not too, limited.

 

It's also possible for the other elements, besides the government, to grab for power.  And it's much better for them if people have their eyes firmly on the government and keeping it small, which allows them far more freedom to pursue their own ends without restraint.

 

You're right that culture is important - in a way more so than the number of firearms or the exact laws.  The problem is that in the US, you see this sick culture, and the unwillingness to pass laws, the attitude that one's neighbours are dangers, or you might have to fight the state - they are all the problem.  And they are very much intertwined with this inability to discuss reasonable measures to control gun violence.  

 

There are other countries and places that have high gun ownership.  But their attitude is very different, and talking about preventing mass shootings is something that seems quite natural even if it means changes in the law.


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#118 J-rap

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:21 AM

Because it isn’t about saving lives - if it were there are many effective ways to do that in larger number than firearms laws, of which there are MANY. It’s a political power grab and pure opportunism. I think the same thing about always ranting over immigration when there is a terrorist attack. There are effective methods of profiling to catch a good number of these people, but they aren’t implemented for various and sundry political reasons even when they have proved effective in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other such countries.

It’s always the same, and the blame always somehow gets shifted to the culture and the laws and the millions of people who DIDNT shoot anyone. Because that makes people feel like they have some power, even though it is now directed against their peaceful neighbor. It’s an illusion, to put it kindly. There are other words.

As I said, I’m not addressing this. It’s not worth the wasted typing to do for the 1001th time.

 

I'm sorry you view it this way, and I can see how it can appear political sometimes. I will say that for the people I know who would like stronger gun regulations, it is not about grabbing political power and trying to take advantage of an opportunity at all.  And, they don't blame it on the millions of innocent people who own guns.  They blame it on a culture that seems to be evolving now to a point where we are hearing about more and more mass shootings every day.  It's true that there are a lot of other measures we can take, but one of them is to try and change this course we seem to be on of adding more and more and more and more and more guns.  That just does not seem like the answer.


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#119 Bluegoat

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:23 AM

But to repeat an earlier point - I do think the media attention of these things is a problem.  I think it plays right into the psychology of some people who feel they've been wronged somehow by society and they are just going to show everyone.


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#120 Arctic Mama

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:24 AM

Wow - lots of code words in there. I hear you, loud and clear.

You can't bother with saving lives from gun violence because Americans are going down the path of immorality. Gay marriage and abortion are the big ones, but also because of "Happy Holidays", Grey's Anatomy & Game of Thrones. A pastor clued me in to those evils. True story. All proof that we are "a people bent toward immorality as a group". So we all suffer until Jesus comes. But at least we have our guns.


Nope. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. And there is nothing holier about America that insulates us from this. Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.

You can believe every nasty thing you want about me, but I would say culture and laws reflects the problems of the heart, they don’t shape it. We remake the world and God in our own image and try to proclaim it good, while wondering why it crumbles to sand. And when we are confronted with the exceedingly sinful nature of sin the the course of a murder or abuse or theft or any number of the countless ways man expresses his sin, we act shocked because we believed we, and our edifices of civility, were sufficient to prevent what is God’s alone to change.

Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.
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#121 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:26 AM

 

 

Side-note: I would never in a million, trillion, bazillion years attend a church with armed guards, patrols, or CC attenders that I was aware of.  I'll pray, worship, and fellowship elsewhere, thankyouverymuch.

 

Why?
 


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#122 Barb_

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:27 AM

There are a lot of things people think about Texas and guns. Many of those things are kind of urban legends and just plain not true. We don't have the easiest gun laws in the country. We're about in the middle. We don't have the highest gun ownership. We're about in the middle. Texas is a gigantic state with an extremely varied population.


The misconceptions may have something to do with the loony governor who is quoted as saying, ""I'm EMBARRASSED: Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans"
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#123 8circles

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:27 AM

Nope. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. And there is nothing holier about America that insulates us from this. Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.

You can believe every nasty thing you want about me, but I would say culture and laws reflects the problems of the heart, they don’t shape it. We remake the world and God in our own image and try to proclaim it good, while wondering why it crumbles to sand. And when we are confronted with the exceedingly sinful nature of sin the the course of a murder or abuse or theft or any number of the countless ways man expresses his sin, we act shocked because we believed we, and our edifices of civility, were sufficient to prevent what is God’s alone to change.

Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.

 

I have no idea what this has to do with the number of mass shootings, the number of people killed in the US by guns every year when this doesn't happen elsewhere. What - in your opinion - makes that so?

 

I believe that you believe what you say you believe and yup - I have an opinion about that. You are also free to believe whatever nasty things about me that you want. Like wanting to prevent people from being shot in church is gross.


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#124 Barb_

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:29 AM

But to repeat an earlier point - I do think the media attention of these things is a problem. I think it plays right into the psychology of some people who feel they've been wronged somehow by society and they are just going to show everyone.


Suicide in a blaze of glory.
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#125 Tibbie Dunbar

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:30 AM

God’s judgment is well deserved against every single one of us, American or not. Never forget. Repent. You can kill the body a millions ways, but that’s not what we should really be afraid of, so much as transgressing against a Holy God again and again and again. The consequences of that are a lot more far reaching that one short lifetime.

I personally detest the god/country confluence. But I believe God saves a people for himself from every tongue and nation, and there is nothing particularly special about the US if it departs from the principles gleaned from wisdom and with an eye on the inherent limits of government on a people bent toward immorality as a group. It’s not going to get less ugly without massive repentance by millions of people.

I’m sure this is falling on deaf ears. But it is also the truest thing I can say.


I agree, we need to repent of many things.

Systemic and institutionalized racism.
Oppression of minorities.
Lack of tolerance.
Inequality in education and housing.
The poisoning of children in Flint.
Laws that keep LGBTQ families from stability - now you're legally married, now you're not...
Turning blind eyes and deaf ears to refugees and homeless.
Ignoring Rohingya like we ignored Darfur.
Failing to be good stewards of our beautiful land, failing to keep protections for national parks and endangered wildlife.
Keeping two penal codes - one for whites and one for blacks.
Forcing the Dreamers to life in uncertainty and fear.
Failing every single family affected by mental illness, on some level, at some time over the course of their experience.

I could go on ALL day.

But the "what then" is very much up for debate. If we have lost our souls, some could interpret that God wants us to swallow our judgment and live with it. We deserve to have the innocents slaughtered? God is punishing us for our hate by letting a 14yo girl be murdered at church while her parents were out of town? You have to know that is not a mainstream perspective, and it is far too religious and sectarian to drive policy.

But others will say, "My country, when right to be kept right, when wrong to be made right," and embrace a responsibility given by nature and by nature's God to start taking care of each other! John Adams said that the founding fathers ideal of self government was for a moral and responsible people. Nobody else can manage it. If we have lost the ability to love our neighbor of our own volition, or to compel our brother to live peacefully through reason and relationship, then we will have to follow the example of others and restrain ourselves by law.
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#126 Tibbie Dunbar

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:30 AM

Dp

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar, 06 November 2017 - 11:31 AM.


#127 SporkUK

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:31 AM

It feels like a heartbreaking broken record. As American in the UK, I struggle trying to explain these things to people I know when they ask me. 

 

We've known for decades that mass shooting spread, social contagion plays a big role, and that the media has a massive part to play of that. There have been guidelines to reduce this based for many years and it continues to be ignored for profit. We actually know quite a bit of what inspires these things, people worked very hard to research this to try to save lives - it just gets ignored. 

 

People with mental illnesses are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than perpetrators. While it's popular rhetoric in the media, there is no strong evidence that mental illness is involved in most mass shootings or violence at all. With how the social system in our societies glorify violence and fame, these horrible acts sadly don't go that far against the grain. The thing almost all of these shooters have in common isn't their mind but their sex (in my lifetime, something like 3 mass shootings in the US have involved a woman perpetrator, far far fewer than the amount that specifically targeted women) but almost no one would say this all a man thing. 

 

We have worldwide evidence that control of guns and/or bullets works in preventing mass shootings and gun crimes. There is nothing about Americans that means what has worked in the UK, Australia, Japan, and many other countries who still have criminals couldn't work in the US. Japan literally has a world renowned crime syndicate and their tight gun laws with tests and proof of storage still shows results. That many if not most of the many law in US are aimed at businesses and ignores private sellers and buyers is a part of the issue - it makes it looks like something is being done and safety is there where it is not. Really, the idea that no laws can change this when other countries have done so to me says that people think very little of Americans that we must be so much more violent that no law will stop us when so many other nations are not experiencing this. 


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#128 8circles

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:32 AM

Why?
 

 

Because I can't reconcile that with my faith in a loving God. I keep trying to type more but it just sounds so silly. Really - this is a question? You think guns belong in church?


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#129 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:33 AM

I do accept that any activity includes some risk. Every time we step outside our door (and even at home) there is some danger - natural disasters, crime, diseases, accidents happen. This does not bother me - it is part of life. But I will be ---- before I take a gun to church (if i lived somewhere this is even possible). An armed security guard outside/at the door in a dangerous neighborhood is one thing but parishioners (or priests!) carrying a gun is something I can not stomach. 

 

Interesting.  It must be a cultural thing.

 

Our former pastor was a military chaplain when he was younger.  I don't understand why guns somehow defile a church.

 

It doesn't make me feel one bit strange to feel that people in church are probably CC (including the pastors).

 

Maybe because some of my fondest childhood memories were of my extremely mild-mannered, peaceful dad cleaning his guns and making new ammunition for hunting.  (And my dad did carry a pistol for safety at certain times.)


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#130 Bluegoat

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:34 AM

Suicide in a blaze of glory.

 

Yup.  Fantasizing about killing yourself and showing everyone is pretty common among the depressed.

 

It's like the trope of a mass shooting has entered the culture, so it has a life of it's own.


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#131 Barb_

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:37 AM

Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.
<snipped>
Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.


Your arguments build a foundation for reasonable gun control. I'm not sure what you are saying here.
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#132 hornblower

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:40 AM

Why?
 


Because they are instruments of death. 


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#133 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:42 AM

Because I can't reconcile that with my faith in a loving God. I keep trying to type more but it just sounds so silly. Really - this is a question? You think guns belong in church?

 

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches.
 



#134 8circles

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:46 AM

People have been going to church in this country for 400+ years, and guns have been around for just as long. Church shootings are a relatively recent development. One has to look at the anti-Christian rhetoric which has pervaded our society. It's out and out hatred, and it has spead like a cancer. This is not what our culture was like when I was a child.

This is the problem, not the gun, and it needs to be confronted and stopped.

 

For you and others who believe this narrative: this is what Alex Jones is saying. You know, the guy who says Sandy Hook didn't happen, that "globalists" want to eliminate 80% of the population then live forever through technology, that Obama is the head of Al-Qaeda, and that the government is making children gay through juice boxes. Among other things.


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#135 hornblower

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:46 AM

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches.
 


"Thou shalt not kill"  


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#136 Murphy101

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:48 AM

The why didn’t someone in the church shoot him to stop him comments....

Maybe people making those comments should take a moment to consider that

Gun owners don’t fit that stereotype
Church goers don’t fit that stereotype
Texans don’t fit that stereotype
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#137 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:48 AM

Because they are instruments of death. 

 

So are crosses.  So is fire.  So are hands.  ??  People have funerals in church.  I was not aware of this concept that church and death must never meet.  I mean, obviously I don't want to see shots fired in church, but if it came to that I'd rather a trained "good guy" take out a "bad guy" before he had a chance to take out a lot of people.

 

If nobody in church had a gun and someone came in shooting, they would use some other potentially deadly means to try to stop him.  Would that also be wrong?


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#138 8circles

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:49 AM

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship. Uh, nothing. So much so that they don't belong there.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I don't know what this means in this context. Of course one's faith extends beyond the church doors. I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches. 
 

 

Bringing weapons of war (which is what guns are, regardless of what other activities they are used for by peaceful people) into a place where you worship the Prince of Peace is very clearly not appropriate, to me.

 

YMMV.


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#139 J-rap

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:49 AM

Nope. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. And there is nothing holier about America that insulates us from this. Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.

You can believe every nasty thing you want about me, but I would say culture and laws reflects the problems of the heart, they don’t shape it. We remake the world and God in our own image and try to proclaim it good, while wondering why it crumbles to sand. And when we are confronted with the exceedingly sinful nature of sin the the course of a murder or abuse or theft or any number of the countless ways man expresses his sin, we act shocked because we believed we, and our edifices of civility, were sufficient to prevent what is God’s alone to change.

Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.

 

I'm sorry these discussions become so heated.  I would love to be able to discuss without blaming.  We're all just trying to figure things out the best way we can, and in accordance to our backgrounds and experiences.

 

I don't think people are so shocked, actually.  I think most people (Christians and non-Christians) recognize it as the evolution of an imperfect culture in an imperfect world.  The government's job is not to take on the Christian mission, and it couldn't even if it tried.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make legal changes for the good of society, to attempt to make things a little bit better, if not for us, for the future generations.  And I think that as individuals, we can certainly promote Christ's message of peace, and take a stand personally.  


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#140 OH_Homeschooler

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:50 AM

So are crosses.  So is fire.  So are hands.  ??  People have funerals in church.  I was not aware of this concept that church and death must never meet.  I mean, obviously I don't want to see shots fired in church, but if it came to that I'd rather a trained "good guy" take out a "bad guy" before he had a chance to take out a lot of people.

 

If nobody in church had a gun and someone came in shooting, they would use some other potentially deadly means to try to stop him.  Would that also be wrong?

 

Guns serve the sole purpose of taking life. Hands, crosses, fire...other uses.


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#141 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:51 AM

"Thou shalt not kill"  

 

That is generally interpreted as "thou shalt not murder."  But if your church teaches that it includes self-defense or defense of others, that is fine for your church.  I assume that applies both inside and outside of church.
 


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#142 Bluegoat

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:52 AM

I don't see what the presence of guns (particularly CC) has to do with worship.

 

As for faith in a loving God, that would seem to extend beyond the church doors.  I'm not aware of any scripture that promises bad guys will only operate outside of churches.
 

 

Even though Christianity as a whole isn't quite pacifistic, there has been through most of its history a strong anti-violent and especially anti-war tendency.  Enough so that clergy members carrying arms has often been forbidden.

 

There has been a long history where it has been forbidden to carry weapons into a church, and where a Church is in fact a place of sanctuary, and those who carry weapons within despite that and violate its sanctuary are committing serious sin.

 

The idea of people carrying weapons, potentially to use against other people, into a church, therefore seems quite contradictory and even perverse to many.  It doesn't assume that bad guys will not come into churches, only that if they do, that isn't the most important thing.


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#143 8circles

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:53 AM

So are crosses.  So is fire.  So are hands.  ??  People have funerals in church.  I was not aware of this concept that church and death must never meet.  I mean, obviously I don't want to see shots fired in church, but if it came to that I'd rather a trained "good guy" take out a "bad guy" before he had a chance to take out a lot of people.

 

If nobody in church had a gun and someone came in shooting, they would use some other potentially deadly means to try to stop him.  Would that also be wrong?

 

I have never seen people carrying their own crosses into church - that would be a little crowded. Small, symbolic ones that people wear around their neck aren't exactly the same thing. I am not bothered by people wearing gun charms on a necklace although it would be a bit weird. Christ wasn't shot to death, he was crucified.

 

The primary use of fire and hands is not death. 


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#144 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:59 AM

Well ... maybe I'm the wrong kind of Christian, but if I see someone shooting at your kid and I have a gun and know how to use it, I'm gonna take that shooter out.  Church or no church.  God will have to punish me for it.


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#145 HomeAgain

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 11:59 AM

That is generally interpreted as "thou shalt not murder."  But if your church teaches that it includes self-defense or defense of others, that is fine for your church.  I assume that applies both inside and outside of church.
 

 

Jesus didn't fight the soldiers who came for him, right or wrong as they were.


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#146 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:02 PM

Jesus didn't fight the soldiers who came for him, right or wrong as they were.

 

I don't feel that my purpose on earth is in any way similar to Jesus' purpose on earth.  I doubt my death is going to redeem anyone.  I doubt my kids' or your kids' deaths are going to redeem anyone.

 

While it is true Jesus did not fight those soldiers, he DID tell his disciples to arm themselves.  Luke 22:36.


Edited by SKL, 06 November 2017 - 12:06 PM.


#147 Twolittleboys

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:08 PM

This is not about you personally but just replying because several people have said that. If you're in these places, it's already happening. It's concealed carry, therefore you may not realize it. Women are doing it, men are doing it. Licensures are up and therefore very possibly the rates are up.

 

Well, I feel fairly sure that there are few (probably no) guns in church when I attend. I live in Europe and while there is quite a bit of hunting/shooting people don't normally walk around with guns. I have certainly never heard of anyone I know doing so.

 

 

 

Interesting.  It must be a cultural thing.

 

Our former pastor was a military chaplain when he was younger.  I don't understand why guns somehow defile a church.

 

It doesn't make me feel one bit strange to feel that people in church are probably CC (including the pastors).

 

Maybe because some of my fondest childhood memories were of my extremely mild-mannered, peaceful dad cleaning his guns and making new ammunition for hunting.  (And my dad did carry a pistol for safety at certain times.)

 

I think my earlier post might have been misunderstood. I actually don't have a problem with guns per se (for hunting/sport/possibly protection). And I wouldn't care too much if a couple of people in the congregation did carry a concealed gun. What I object to is the idea that people SHOULD take a gun to church. I wouldn't mind some sort of security if there had been credible threats/in a very bad neighborhood. But a need to take a gun because there are so many evil people around/there is no law and order and it is up to us to defend ourselves? That is something I do not want. It reminds me of some zombie movie (which I don't watch so maybe I am mistaken) with everyone fighting for their lives.


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#148 HomeAgain

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:09 PM

I don't feel that my purpose on earth is in any way similar to Jesus' purpose on earth.  I doubt my death is going to redeem anyone.  I doubt my kids' or your kids' deaths are going to redeem anyone.

 

While it is true Jesus did not fight those soldiers, he DID tell his disciples to arm themselves.  Luke 22:36.

 

Matthew 26:52

52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

 

This, as he is being arrested.


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#149 SKL

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:16 PM

 

 

I think my earlier post might have been misunderstood. I actually don't have a problem with guns per se (for hunting/sport/possibly protection). And I wouldn't care too much if a couple of people in the congregation did carry a concealed gun. What I object to is the idea that people SHOULD take a gun to church. I wouldn't mind some sort of security if there had been credible threats/in a very bad neighborhood. But a need to take a gun because there are so many evil people around/there is no law and order and it is up to us to defend ourselves? That is something I do not want. It reminds me of some zombie movie (which I don't watch so maybe I am mistaken) with everyone fighting for their lives.

 

I think I agree with you here.  We're not to the point where we can't go into any church in the USA without actively expecting an attack ... same with walking down the street or going to the movies etc.  And if it ever gets to the point where we are supposed to be in defense mode or hiding all the time, then I might just be happier being shot and getting it over with.  I don't know.  Despite the news stories, we are very far from that point except in a few really violent pockets of our country.



#150 Plum Crazy

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:16 PM

But to repeat an earlier point - I do think the media attention of these things is a problem.  I think it plays right into the psychology of some people who feel they've been wronged somehow by society and they are just going to show everyone.

 

The LA Times posted this bar graph of the top 12 body counts from mass shootings. It's this kind of crap that motivates disturbed people. LA Times knows and understands this. Talk about inappropriate timing. There is a higher chance of a mass shooting within 2 weeks of previous mass shooting. The media has a responsibility to report mass shootings just as they would report stories of suicide, sexual assault and molestation, and crimes against minors. There needs to be more thoughtful reporting and law enforcement needs to follow the studies that have been presented to them and not provide information immediately. 

 

Years ago, suicide by cop was unheard of. It is now a part of our understanding as a method of suicide and police have changed their policy for response accordingly. Mass shootings have been discussed as a form of suicide. Education in suicide prevention would go much farther in saving lives by avoiding these tragedies altogether than responding after the act has already happened. 


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