Another shooting in San Antonio at a church :(

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Sand walker, Arctic Mama, and others concerned about respect for survivors healing and still warm bodies - how do you not see by now that the survivors guilt and sorrow are intensified and compounded by helplessness? Anyone recovering from loss wants to do something, to make it count, to set it right. It's practically one of the stages of grief. But survivors and family members of mass shooting victims have nothing, nothing, nothing to make them hope for a future where this doesn't happen. They have to mourn and go forward, knowing their other children may also be slaughtered somewhere else. A child who survived San Antonio may grow up to die in a college campus shooting. An adult at San Antonio may have survived Ft. Hood...the real comfort - by which I mean justice and closure - would be for the authorities and everyone else to tell the truth about this war zone we are living in, and immediately take known researched, effective measures to reduce these massacres of innocents in our land.

[SKL]

And yes, I do want some people in church to be packing weapons for protection.  We have some cops in our church (members, not in uniform) and I assume they are carrying.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

One Step, I live moments from a difficult urban neighborhood. A friends church has a well armed and well trained security force that patrols and protects the church during Sunday services. These are congregants who received special training thru a police program. They used to just come armed and stay ready, but now they are on active duty while their families worship, and this is why:

 

This summer, the foyer and children's center were strafed by automatic gunfire, on a Sunday morning. If the children had not been in the sanctuary for a special music program, on any other Sunday they would have all been lined up at that exact time, to be picked up by parents, right in front of those doors and walls that were shattered by bullets. Possibly most of the children would have been killed.

[hornblower]

 

The fact that the typical talking points got dusted off while bodies were still warm on the ground is gross and oh so predictable. I’m not going to engage in this merry go round on guns yet again, but Scalia does deserve defending of his jurisprudence and the consistency behind it.

 

We can talk about Vegas if you prefer. 

 

 

There's also an entire contingent of people - me included - noting for posterity on social media that if I'm killed in a mass shooting, don't waste time with your prayers; I want the people who cared for me politicize the %^&((*&! out of it, instantly and unceasingly, to make change happen. We honor victims by pledging change.

 

It's not really any different than asking for donations to a cancer charity at a funeral. 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Ok, can I ask a question? Honestly, I haven't been watching any of the coverage because it seemed focused on showing people traumatized, which I don't need right now. Was anyone in that church concealed carry? Did they have security policies? Because y'all are talking about how they could take away guns from criminals (who lie, steal, etc.), but this was Texas. I thought the idea was in Texas so many people have guns to protect themselves. Where were their guns when they needed them? 

 

Or was the whole thing just so fast? Did he walk in after the service started? I mean, something that big (an assault rifle??) isn't something you just hide. So did he come in after the service started and people were vulnerable? 

 

It just so does not add up to me. Churches KNOW they are targets right now and they have to have safety plans. 

 

Shooting at someone from within a crowd isn't a great idea in general.  

[SKL]

Ok, can I ask a question? Honestly, I haven't been watching any of the coverage because it seemed focused on showing people traumatized, which I don't need right now. Was anyone in that church concealed carry? Did they have security policies? Because y'all are talking about how they could take away guns from criminals (who lie, steal, etc.), but this was Texas. I thought the idea was in Texas so many people have guns to protect themselves. Where were their guns when they needed them? 

 

Or was the whole thing just so fast? Did he walk in after the service started? I mean, something that big (an assault rifle??) isn't something you just hide. So did he come in after the service started and people were vulnerable? 

 

It just so does not add up to me. Churches KNOW they are targets right now and they have to have safety plans. 

 

Having lived in a quiet, small rural community, I would guess they did not feel vulnerable.  "I know my community and nobody here is that evil or crazy."

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The likelihood of the average person being able to successfully return fire after someone has started firing from behind them with a semi-automatic high capacity weapon is absurdly low.  Most churches cannot afford armed security patrols during services, and we are well and truly ****ed as a nation if that is what it takes to be safe in church.

[hornblower]

And yes, I do want some people in church to be packing weapons for protection.  We have some cops in our church (members, not in uniform) and I assume they are carrying.

 

This is so crazy to me. It would be like living in a war zone.  

 

This must be some frog in hot water thing playing out.  I cannot imagine accepting this. 

 

I had a friend who moved to a country with a high murder rate in the early 00s and we talked about safety and whether the family would be ok and what types of precautions they would take. Same with some other friends of dh who are geologists and moving families to remote and areas with poor policing and civil strife.  The idea that you have armed guards all over the place is just not normal.  

 

I will not accept this as normal.  I'm an atheist and I find the idea of weapons in a house of worship abhorrent. 

[chiguirre]

USA Today is reporting that the perpetrator's inlaws belonged to this church. I think we have a motive.

[LarlaB]

The lack of logical, critical thinking here is stunning, particularly on a board devoted to classical education.

 

I suppose by your logic the Las Vegas shooting was because of hatred of country music, and the Newtown shooter hated young children.

 

Neither, of course, seems to be true at all.

Well HATE is a common denominator isn’t it? It’s an oversimplification to say that guns and easy access are the root of the issue. It’s not. It’s hatred, violence and evil in the heart of man that motivates them to collect weapons, plan and execute an attack. Guns are the mechanism by which they choose to enact their evil.

 

A mentally ill person, psychopath or individual with intense rage and hatred in their hearts IS the problem. The fact that they have easy access to ‘legal’ assault weapons further compounds the problem. I support limits on gun ownership but am not naive enough to believe that gun control is the solution to the evil heart issue.

 

From a psychological perspective, I would expect someone who is intent on inflicting harm and destruction on others to find a way to do so even if guns are harder to access.

 

But we’ve had this discussion here. 1000 Times.

[OneStepAtATime]

One Step, I live moments from a difficult urban neighborhood. A friends church has a well armed and well trained security force that patrols and protects the church during Sunday services. These are congregants who received special training thru a police program. They used to just come armed and stay ready, but now they are on active duty while their families worship, and this is why:

 

This summer, the foyer and children's center were strafed by automatic gunfire, on a Sunday morning. If the children had not been in the sanctuary for a special music program, on any other Sunday they would have all been lined up at that exact time, to be picked up by parents, right in front of those doors and walls that were shattered by bullets. Possibly most of the children would have been killed.

I can see the need in some instances, especially in urban settings, for TRAINED personnel to be armed and ready to defend a church in today's day and age, and for a carefully laid out plan to be in place for what to do in given situations.  And for the congregation at large to be trained in what to do should a shooting occur.  It sickens me that this might be needed but I acknowledge that we may seriously have reached this point, at least for some churches.  Possibly.

 

My response was to the apparent assumption that these church members of a tiny town church should have ASSUMED they were in danger and carried weapons into the church and that they somehow failed their fellow members by not packing (which is kind of how OhE's post read to me, although that may not have been her intent at all).  I disagree with that premise and felt I had to say something.  Add up how many churches are out there vs. how many have actually been involved in a mass shooting and I don't see statistically why anyone in that church (or any other church) should have felt obligated to bring their weapon into the church or that they somehow failed themselves or their fellow members by not carrying a weapon and shooting the man as soon as he fired.  

 

I am not saying that what you mentioned is not a needed plan under certain circumstances.  That actually makes sense to me in certain circumstances, although it breaks my heart that it might be a good idea.  That is very different from the minister and the congregation at large feeling they have to bring weapons into their church every time they attend worship on the off chance that somebody might show up with weapons that can rapid fire bullets.  I don't agree that it should be expected for the minister or the congregation of a church to be packing every time they go to church service or to feel like they failed in some way if they don't.  

 

ETA:  I agree with others, I reject the idea that all churches need armed guards so that people can attend worship.  Or that firing guns around a large crowd of tightly packed panicky church members is a good idea, either.

Edited November 6, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[chiguirre]

 

A mentally ill person, psychopath or individual with intense rage and hatred in their hearts IS the problem. The fact that they have easy access to ‘legal’ assault weapons further compounds the problem. I support limits on gun ownership but am not naive enough to believe that gun control is the solution to the evil heart issue.

 

From a psychological perspective, I would expect someone who is intent on inflicting harm and destruction on others to find a way to do so even if guns are harder to access.

 

But we’ve had this discussion here. 1000 Times.

 

Gun control won't solve the violent person who wants to kill people problem but it will limit the consequences. I'd rather there were no mass shootings but that's not possible. What is possible is banning high capacity magazines, bump stocks, body armor, etc. If shooters didn't have this gear they couldn't kill as many people in 10 minutes. I'd much rather have 3 or 4 killed than 26 or 58.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

One Step at a Time, I wasn't disagreeing with you or arguing? I don't think the trained squad should be necessary. I even think it's probably somewhat harmful for the children of those men to feel that while they're going to Sunday school, daddy is armed for war. :( I definitely don't think ministers and other clergy or staff should be armed for defense, any more than most of us think schoolteachers, bus drivers, and pilots should be armed.

 

I just meant to post that if it happens, here's the first church I've heard of to have anything like a security plan in place. My friend told me the police had informed them that this is a growing concept. She was as shocked as I was.

[PeterPan]

I understand not wanting to watch the coverage.   Hugs.

 

Yes, he walked in about half an hour after the service had started.  I am not opposed to churches having a safety plan.  What type of safety plan would you suggest?  Lots of people are packed into a relatively small space, seated in pews so maneuverability is limited.  The minister is almost certainly not going to be packing during his church sermon. 

 

 

One Step, I live moments from a difficult urban neighborhood. A friends church has a well armed and well trained security force that patrols and protects the church during Sunday services. These are congregants who received special training thru a police program. They used to just come armed and stay ready, but now they are on active duty while their families worship, and this is why:

 

This summer, the foyer and children's center were strafed by automatic gunfire, on a Sunday morning. If the children had not been in the sanctuary for a special music program, on any other Sunday they would have all been lined up at that exact time, to be picked up by parents, right in front of those doors and walls that were shattered by bullets. Possibly most of the children would have been killed.

Bingo. Absolutely the pastor could be packing heat. Churches now are assigning and know who is packing heat at a given service. And if the shooter was able to WALK IN, then they AREN'T FOLLOWING a safety plan. Safety plans include things like security for the doors, locking the doors so that people can exit but not enter, having people stationed, having cameras. 

 

 

Shooting at someone from within a crowd isn't a great idea in general.  

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Bingo. Absolutely the pastor could be packing heat. Churches now are assigning and know who is packing heat at a given service. And if the shooter was able to WALK IN, then they AREN'T FOLLOWING a safety plan. Safety plans include things like security for the doors, locking the doors so that people can exit but not enter, having people stationed, having cameras. 

 

 

 

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks.

 

I must be having trouble tracking this morning. I am not sure how my post warrants these responses...I was talking about security plans for churches being a *very, very new* concept for most Americans. We do NOT have security plans. We do NOT have an on guard, OPSEC culture around peaceable activities like going to church or school. Because up until the last fifteen minutes of history, we didn't need them.

[gardenmom5]

USA Today is reporting that the perpetrator's inlaws belonged to this church. I think we have a motive.

 

apparently - his 2nd set of ?soon-to-be?already? ex inlaws.   he was married before - and divorced at the time he was dishonorably discharged for domestic violence. (so it should have been illegal for him to have a gun.)

[PeterPan]

I can see the need in some instances, especially in urban settings, for TRAINED personnel to be armed and ready to defend a church in today's day and age, and for a carefully laid out plan to be in place for what to do in given situations....

 

My response was to the apparent assumption that these church members of a tiny town church should have ASSUMED they were in danger and carried weapons into the church and that they somehow failed their fellow members by not packing (which is kind of how OhE's post read to me...

 

Actually that's PRECISELY what I'm saying, that people are not stepping up if they do not have a safety plan in their church, do not have designated conceal/carry people for the day, do not have proper procedures for how you handle doors, etc. You don't need drills for the whole church. You just need a board and leadership that has put in place the plan and has the people who are there handling it. It's a leadership problem. And if people say well only urban churches, was this an urban church??

 

The church is an easy target for abuse, whether it's people seeking access to children, people seeking financial access, people seeking a crowd to attack and make a point. Easy, easy targets. You HAVE to have procedures, plans, and security in place. We could talk about safety of ANY group in the church, any aspect. The point is you HAVE to put in safeguards or you are easy targets. 

 

Plans like this are the norm in our area. If you go to a church that doesn't have security plans or plans to protect youth, finances, etc., talk with your leadership. 

[PeterPan]

I must be having trouble tracking this morning. I am not sure how my post warrants these responses...I was talking about security plans for churches being a *very, very new* concept for most Americans. We do NOT have security plans. We do NOT have an on guard, OPSEC culture around peaceable activities like going to church or school. Because up until the last fifteen minutes of history, we didn't need them.

 

Yeah, I didn't mean anything personal. These attacks have been in the news enough for the past few years that churches around here have had plans in place for a number of years already. I was just surprised that in TEXAS they didn't have plans in place. TEXAS, where they're always talking about their guns and how they value order.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Bingo. Absolutely the pastor could be packing heat. Churches now are assigning and know who is packing heat at a given service. And if the shooter was able to WALK IN, then they AREN'T FOLLOWING a safety plan. Safety plans include things like security for the doors, locking the doors so that people can exit but not enter, having people stationed, having cameras. 

 

 

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks. 

 

So now Americans at church are "sitting ducks" for just living their lives and not expecting to be mowed down by psychos with automatic weapons? 

 

Noted.

 

You do realize that there are SO many factors and things that can go wrong even if you have a plan, and there are armed citizens and guards there familiar with the plan? And that these things still happen when there are armed citizens in place, like Las Vegas? People grossly underestimate the adrenaline, confusion, and so many other conditions that would render them paralyzed in an active shooter situation. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by OH_Homeschooler

[Lang Syne Boardie]

So now Americans at church are "sitting ducks" for just living their lives and not expecting to be mowed down by psychos with automatic weapons?

 

Noted.

 

You do realize that there are SO many factors and things that can go wrong even if you have a plan, and there are armed citizens and guards, and these things still happen when there are armed citizens in place? Like Las Vegas? People grossly underestimate the adrenaline, confusion, and so many other conditions that would render them paralyzed in an active shooter situation.

Think of the crossfire. Madman with AK fires on church, parishioners with rifles fire back, bullets are ricocheting and nobody knows where gunfire is coming from...why do we all think a battle is going to be easy or tidy, or that anyone who is not literally a combat veteran is going to have a clue in a war with assault rifles involved? We've either watched too much television or not enough.

[Barb_]

When we realize pastors are packing heat in the pulpit we have to take a step back and acknowledge we are in an arms race against ourselves. That never ends well.

[chiguirre]

apparently - his 2nd set of ?soon-to-be?already? ex inlaws.   he was married before - and divorced at the time he was dishonorably discharged for domestic violence. (so it should have been illegal for him to have a gun.)

 

It seems he was discharged for bad conduct which is not the same as dishonorably discharged. He also had a Texas Department of Public Safety Private Security Guard license. He bought the gun at Academy (a huge sporting goods chain, not a shady gun show operator whose business depends on selling to people who can't pass the background check).

[8circles]

Well HATE is a common denominator isn’t it? It’s an oversimplification to say that guns and easy access are the root of the issue. It’s not. It’s hatred, violence and evil in the heart of man that motivates them to collect weapons, plan and execute an attack. Guns are the mechanism by which they choose to enact their evil.

 

A mentally ill person, psychopath or individual with intense rage and hatred in their hearts IS the problem. The fact that they have easy access to ‘legal’ assault weapons further compounds the problem. I support limits on gun ownership but am not naive enough to believe that gun control is the solution to the evil heart issue.

 

From a psychological perspective, I would expect someone who is intent on inflicting harm and destruction on others to find a way to do so even if guns are harder to access.

 

But we’ve had this discussion here. 1000 Times.

 

Are Americans so much more hateful than citizens of other countries? Do we have so much more intense rage and hatred in our hearts than others? If so, why?

 

Why does mental illness in citizens of other countries not cause mass shootings like it seems to here?

 

Do other countries not have the number of psychopaths that we have here in the US? If so, why? 

Edited November 6, 2017 by 8circles

[OneStepAtATime]

Actually that's PRECISELY what I'm saying, that people are not stepping up if they do not have a safety plan in their church, do not have designated conceal/carry people for the day, do not have proper procedures for how you handle doors, etc. You don't need drills for the whole church. You just need a board and leadership that has put in place the plan and has the people who are there handling it. It's a leadership problem. And if people say well only urban churches, was this an urban church??

 

The church is an easy target for abuse, whether it's people seeking access to children, people seeking financial access, people seeking a crowd to attack and make a point. Easy, easy targets. You HAVE to have procedures, plans, and security in place. We could talk about safety of ANY group in the church, any aspect. The point is you HAVE to put in safeguards or you are easy targets. 

 

Plans like this are the norm in our area. If you go to a church that doesn't have security plans or plans to protect youth, finances, etc., talk with your leadership. 

 

I appreciate your willingness to share your opinion and I do understand why many feel this way.  Honestly though, I respectfully but strongly disagree with the belief that all houses of worship should now be training personnel to defend their house of worship and arming to the teeth and having the pastor carry a weapon into his place of worship to help defend that house of worship or that having all houses of worship do this will solve anything and I definitely reject the idea that because this was a Texas church they should absolutely have been packing and ready for a shoot out or that they are to blame because so many got killed.  Unfortunately, I have no time to discuss this further.  I apologize.  I will try to return to this later but I assume by that time this thread will either be locked or zillions of pages long and my response may no longer be needed.

[8circles]

One Step at a Time, I wasn't disagreeing with you or arguing? I don't think the trained squad should be necessary. I even think it's probably somewhat harmful for the children of those men to feel that while they're going to Sunday school, daddy is armed for war. :( I definitely don't think ministers and other clergy or staff should be armed for defense, any more than most of us think schoolteachers, bus drivers, and pilots should be armed.

 

I just meant to post that if it happens, here's the first church I've heard of to have anything like a security plan in place. My friend told me the police had informed them that this is a growing concept. She was as shocked as I was.

The bold: Totally. What a mind-fuck for a kid. Here's to the generations to come that think this is normal - Cheers!

 

Side-note: I would never in a million, trillion, bazillion years attend a church with armed guards, patrols, or CC attenders that I was aware of.  I'll pray, worship, and fellowship elsewhere, thankyouverymuch.

[J-rap]

 

The fact that the typical talking points got dusted off while bodies were still warm on the ground is gross and oh so predictable. I’m not going to engage in this merry go round on guns yet again, but Scalia does deserve defending of his jurisprudence and the consistency behind it.

 

I've never understood this.  Why isn't it the time?  Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements.  Why is this gross?  It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.  

[hornblower]

Maybe just skip church altogether. Meet at the gun range, shout Jesus once in a while, and call it worship. 

[chiguirre]

Yeah, I didn't mean anything personal. These attacks have been in the news enough for the past few years that churches around here have had plans in place for a number of years already. I was just surprised that in TEXAS they didn't have plans in place. TEXAS, where they're always talking about their guns and how they value order.

 

Texas is a big place and there are all sorts of people who live here. We're actually in the middle of the pack of states for gun ownership:

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-owners-percentage-of-state-populations-3325153

 

We have signs up at the entrance of many stores and restaurants specifically banning firearms from the premises. 

 

It's also illegal to lock the doors at public places while they're open due to fire codes. So schools, churches, stores, libraries etc. have to have their doors open while they are open for business.

[8circles]

Actually that's PRECISELY what I'm saying, that people are not stepping up if they do not have a safety plan in their church, do not have designated conceal/carry people for the day, do not have proper procedures for how you handle doors, etc. You don't need drills for the whole church. You just need a board and leadership that has put in place the plan and has the people who are there handling it. It's a leadership problem. And if people say well only urban churches, was this an urban church??

 

The church is an easy target for abuse, whether it's people seeking access to children, people seeking financial access, people seeking a crowd to attack and make a point. Easy, easy targets. You HAVE to have procedures, plans, and security in place. We could talk about safety of ANY group in the church, any aspect. The point is you HAVE to put in safeguards or you are easy targets. 

 

Plans like this are the norm in our area. If you go to a church that doesn't have security plans or plans to protect youth, finances, etc., talk with your leadership. 

 

Hell to the NO.

[8circles]

I've never understood this.  Why isn't it the time?  Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements.  Why is this gross?  It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.  

 

As if the situation - that 26 people (men, women, children) were shot at their house of worship - could possibly be made more gross... but by people desiring to make this never happen again? I'll take that kind of gross any day.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by 8circles

[Dmmetler]

There is a mosque not far from my house. It has serious security fencing and limited entrance points, and 24 hour security guards. They've had enough threats that they feel it's needed, which is really sad. The Jewish community center, synagogue, and day school also have dramatically increased their security on their campus. I really wonder how long it's going to be before this is the norm for houses of worship and religious centers. Most high schools in my area have metal detectors and security as well.

[Twolittleboys]

I do accept that any activity includes some risk. Every time we step outside our door (and even at home) there is some danger - natural disasters, crime, diseases, accidents happen. This does not bother me - it is part of life. But I will be ---- before I take a gun to church (if i lived somewhere this is even possible). An armed security guard outside/at the door in a dangerous neighborhood is one thing but parishioners (or priests!) carrying a gun is something I can not stomach. 

[PeterPan]

Texas is a big place and there are all sorts of people who live here. We're actually in the middle of the pack of states for gun ownership:

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/gun-owners-percentage-of-state-populations-3325153

 

We have signs up at the entrance of many stores and restaurants specifically banning firearms from the premises. 

 

It's also illegal to lock the doors at public places while they're open due to fire codes. So schools, churches, stores, libraries etc. have to have their doors open while they are open for business.

 

That's interesting. I hadn't seen data on that. I just had this impression from the news and the way they talk about "Texas" that it was much higher. Thanks

 

It totally makes sense to me that someone has an opinion about how they want this handled in their church. Churches have positions on pacifism, how they react to things, etc., so that's their business. But if a church has no plan *merely because the leadership didn't stop to think about it* well that's not where I would be. At least be intentional. And even if you were of a no arms or had some very specific positions (turn the other cheek, pacifist, whatever), reality is you'd PROBABLY have some safety plans you WOULD be comfortable with. 

[OH_Homeschooler]

I've never understood this.  Why isn't it the time?  Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements.  Why is this gross?  It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.  

 

I agree with you--I think the actual murder of innocent people is far worse, more gross, and more horrific than the discussion of how to stop it from happening in the future. But maybe that's just me.

Edited November 6, 2017 by OH_Homeschooler

[Bluegoat]

Bingo. Absolutely the pastor could be packing heat. Churches now are assigning and know who is packing heat at a given service. And if the shooter was able to WALK IN, then they AREN'T FOLLOWING a safety plan. Safety plans include things like security for the doors, locking the doors so that people can exit but not enter, having people stationed, having cameras. 

 

 

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks. 

 Why would people plan to come to church thinking they might need, or even want, to shoot someone?

 

To anyone in a country that is not the US, and also doesn't happen to be some kind of war zone, that sounds insane.  A pastor "packing heat" sounds insane - in many Christian churches, priests are not allowed to kill anyone, and a person who has killed cannot become a priest.

 

Going to church, or any other place, without a firearm, doesn't make you a sitting duck unless you are in a seriously sick society.  I am guessing most people don't think they are in a seriously sick society, and don't want to contribute to thinking that way either.

[PeterPan]

... An armed security guard outside/at the door in a dangerous neighborhood is one thing but parishioners (or priests!) carrying a gun is something I can not stomach. 

 

This is not about you personally but just replying because several people have said that. If you're in these places, it's already happening. It's concealed carry, therefore you may not realize it. Women are doing it, men are doing it. Licensures are up and therefore very possibly the rates are up.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

When I was a child, I was taken to a super fundamentalist type church where we were frequently told we might grow up to have to face death for our faith. The minister would say something like, "Imagine armed men coming in here while we worship, ready to start shooting in the pews. They say if we will renounce Christ, they won't kill us. What will you do? Will you deny Him?" And every Sunday, someone would pray a prayer of thanks that we could "worship unmolested and without fear, in a free country."

 

That was in the 80s in a small, Midwestern farming community. Nobody was coming, but I grew up scared that they would because our ministers made it sound almost imminent...I've attended church services nearly every Sunday for four decades but I've never once walked through the doors without thinking of the sitting duck aspect of open assemblies. It's a brief thought, I feel the same in movie theaters, I swallow it down and go on.

 

Here's the point: If my childhood church's scare tactics have come true, only it's not communists, it's us, I could choose not to assemble for worship, education, entertainment, or political rallies. I could be safe at home. But my children will never make that choice! They want to go to college. One of them works in an urban church. They want to go to movies and football games and so on; they want to live their lives.

 

The answer is not the Wild West, nor Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. The answer is not that everyone should be heavily armed, and locked into their churches, synagogues, and mosques. We are neither pre- nor post-civilization! We have a government in place. We could make changes that are researched, proven, and even moderate in scope, that would begin to turn the tide.

 

That's what I want. We've been praying for a long time. And if we become more isolated as a people, we will die from that. We need to live our lives in safety and peace, with the support of a government that has functioned as it should to ensure the safety of innocent citizens.

[Barb_]

I've never understood this. Why isn't it the time? Often it's a big or tragic event that serves as the catalyst for discussion on how we can attempt to make improvements. Why is this gross? It doesn't make the situation any less horrific, at all.

This is exactly the time. This horrible thing happened. People wonder why--we all cast about for patterns, for answers. It's natural to want to discuss the reasons for tragedies and try to figure out ways to avoid similar tragedies playing out again and again.

 

What is gross is the culture of violence in this country. The idea that preachers, preschool teachers, scout leaders and grocery managers may feel the need to carry weapons to work in order to meet potential threat is abhorrent to me. Every time this happens, calls for MORE GUNS go out, purchases increase, and violence escalates. Why did no one think it was odd that this guy posted a semi-automatic to his social media? The coolness factor? The myob, hands off, no questions asked undercurrent when it comes to weapons? Why don't we take violent threats seriously? Why do we act surprised again and again when men who beat their wives go on to mow down dozens? That is the fundamental problem with our culture.

[OH_Homeschooler]

This is exactly the time. This horrible thing happened. People wonder why--we all cast about for patterns, for answers. It's natural to want to discuss the reasons for tragedies and try to figure out ways to avoid similar tragedies playing out again and again.

 

What is gross is the culture of violence in this country. The idea that preachers, preschool teachers, scout leaders and grocery managers may feel the need to carry weapons to work in order to meet potential threat is abhorrent to me. Every time this happens, calls for MORE GUNS go out, purchases increase, and violence escalates. Why did no one think it was odd that this guy posted a semi-automatic to his social media? The coolness factor? The myob, hands off, no questions asked undercurrent when it comes to weapons? Why don't we take violent threats seriously? Why do we act surprised again and again when men who beat their wives go on to mow down dozens? That is the fundamental problem with our culture.

 

And it's so convenient that just when it might become acceptable after a mass shooting to start talking about solutions (haha, right), there's another mass shooting. So it begins again. Everyone hush! Now's not the time!

 

It's really the perfect argument from the NRA's perspective. 

[8circles]

God’s judgment is well deserved against every single one of us, American or not. Never forget. Repent. You can kill the body a millions ways, but that’s not what we should really be afraid of, so much as transgressing against a Holy God again and again and again. The consequences of that are a lot more far reaching that one short lifetime.

 

I personally detest the god/country confluence. But I believe God saves a people for himself from every tongue and nation, and there is nothing particularly special about the US if it departs from the principles gleaned from wisdom and with an eye on the inherent limits of government on a people bent toward immorality as a group. It’s not going to get less ugly without massive repentance by millions of people.

 

I’m sure this is falling on deaf ears. But it is also the truest thing I can say.

 

Wow - lots of code words in there. I hear you, loud and clear.

 

You can't bother with saving lives from gun violence because Americans are going down the path of immorality. Gay marriage and abortion are the big ones, but also because of "Happy Holidays", Grey's Anatomy & Game of Thrones. A pastor clued me in to those evils. True story. All proof that we are "a people bent toward immorality as a group". So we all suffer until Jesus comes. But at least we have our guns.

[Butter]

USA Today is reporting that the perpetrator's inlaws belonged to this church. I think we have a motive.

 

That was reported locally yesterday.  Sure sounds like motive to me.

 

But the guy WALKS IN with a visible assault rifle, and there's no one at the doors stopping him??? 

 

If the guy was shooting through the windows and then came in, that's even more astonishing. They had no security plan. Sitting ducks. 

 

Did you just seriously blame people praying at a church for getting themselves killed???

 

Yeah, I didn't mean anything personal. These attacks have been in the news enough for the past few years that churches around here have had plans in place for a number of years already. I was just surprised that in TEXAS they didn't have plans in place. TEXAS, where they're always talking about their guns and how they value order.

 

There are a lot of things people think about Texas and guns.  Many of those things are kind of urban legends and just plain not true.  We don't have the easiest gun laws in the country.  We're about in the middle.  We don't have the highest gun ownership.  We're about in the middle.  Texas is a gigantic state with an extremely varied population.

[SKL]

Yeah, I'm sure our church has some sort of security plan, but we do not lock our doors during services.

 

I don't agree that we're to the point where every church needs to behave as if an attack is imminent.  I could understand it in an area where gun violence is significant etc.  But every small rural church?  No.

[Bluegoat]

Because it isn’t about saving lives - if it were there are many effective ways to do that in larger number than firearms laws, of which there are MANY. It’s a political power grab and pure opportunism. I think the same thing about always ranting over immigration when there is a terrorist attack. There are effective methods of profiling to catch a good number of these people, but they aren’t implemented for various and sundry political reasons even when they have proved effective in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other such countries.

 

It’s always the same, and the blame always somehow gets shifted to the culture and the laws and the millions of people who DIDNT shoot anyone. Because that makes people feel like they have some power, even though it is now directed against their peaceful neighbor. It’s an illusion, to put it kindly. There are other words.

 

As I said, I’m not addressing this. It’s not worth the wasted typing to do for the 1001th time.

 

I think you are so focused on what you think the one hand is doing (political power grab by government) you are missing that the other hand is doing some pretty fancy card tricks.

 

Government action is typically to balance actions by other elements in the state - it could be individuals, institutions, business, whatever.  Those things act in their own or some limited interest - and government has to balance that so it doesn't overwhelm the interest of the state and the people in general.  So with pollution, say, they balance the power of people who might pollute because it is cheaper, which hurts many other citizens and the interests of the state.

 

This means that the more power these elements have, the more power the state needs to be able to balance them - generally it's a good idea to keep both somewhat, but not too, limited.

 

It's also possible for the other elements, besides the government, to grab for power.  And it's much better for them if people have their eyes firmly on the government and keeping it small, which allows them far more freedom to pursue their own ends without restraint.

 

You're right that culture is important - in a way more so than the number of firearms or the exact laws.  The problem is that in the US, you see this sick culture, and the unwillingness to pass laws, the attitude that one's neighbours are dangers, or you might have to fight the state - they are all the problem.  And they are very much intertwined with this inability to discuss reasonable measures to control gun violence.  

 

There are other countries and places that have high gun ownership.  But their attitude is very different, and talking about preventing mass shootings is something that seems quite natural even if it means changes in the law.

[J-rap]

Because it isn’t about saving lives - if it were there are many effective ways to do that in larger number than firearms laws, of which there are MANY. It’s a political power grab and pure opportunism. I think the same thing about always ranting over immigration when there is a terrorist attack. There are effective methods of profiling to catch a good number of these people, but they aren’t implemented for various and sundry political reasons even when they have proved effective in Israel, Saudi Arabia, and other such countries.

 

It’s always the same, and the blame always somehow gets shifted to the culture and the laws and the millions of people who DIDNT shoot anyone. Because that makes people feel like they have some power, even though it is now directed against their peaceful neighbor. It’s an illusion, to put it kindly. There are other words.

 

As I said, I’m not addressing this. It’s not worth the wasted typing to do for the 1001th time.

 

I'm sorry you view it this way, and I can see how it can appear political sometimes. I will say that for the people I know who would like stronger gun regulations, it is not about grabbing political power and trying to take advantage of an opportunity at all.  And, they don't blame it on the millions of innocent people who own guns.  They blame it on a culture that seems to be evolving now to a point where we are hearing about more and more mass shootings every day.  It's true that there are a lot of other measures we can take, but one of them is to try and change this course we seem to be on of adding more and more and more and more and more guns.  That just does not seem like the answer.

[Bluegoat]

But to repeat an earlier point - I do think the media attention of these things is a problem.  I think it plays right into the psychology of some people who feel they've been wronged somehow by society and they are just going to show everyone.

[SKL]

 

 

Side-note: I would never in a million, trillion, bazillion years attend a church with armed guards, patrols, or CC attenders that I was aware of.  I'll pray, worship, and fellowship elsewhere, thankyouverymuch.

 

Why?

 

[Barb_]

There are a lot of things people think about Texas and guns. Many of those things are kind of urban legends and just plain not true. We don't have the easiest gun laws in the country. We're about in the middle. We don't have the highest gun ownership. We're about in the middle. Texas is a gigantic state with an extremely varied population.

The misconceptions may have something to do with the loony governor who is quoted as saying, ""I'm EMBARRASSED: Texas #2 in nation for new gun purchases, behind CALIFORNIA. Let's pick up the pace Texans"

[8circles]

Nope. We are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God. And there is nothing holier about America that insulates us from this. Any structural protections in place from our style of government and basic societal value structure have been eroding for over a century. The fixes that exist aren’t the ones that are implemented, and we can’t govern our way out of a problem fundamental to the nature of man and the entirety of human history.

 

You can believe every nasty thing you want about me, but I would say culture and laws reflects the problems of the heart, they don’t shape it. We remake the world and God in our own image and try to proclaim it good, while wondering why it crumbles to sand. And when we are confronted with the exceedingly sinful nature of sin the the course of a murder or abuse or theft or any number of the countless ways man expresses his sin, we act shocked because we believed we, and our edifices of civility, were sufficient to prevent what is God’s alone to change.

 

Wise laws are those that create basic structures where men can organize and thrive. But they are necessarily limited, and undertaken with the knowledge that they restrain and contain the evil of man, but can not prevent it.

 

I have no idea what this has to do with the number of mass shootings, the number of people killed in the US by guns every year when this doesn't happen elsewhere. What - in your opinion - makes that so?

 

I believe that you believe what you say you believe and yup - I have an opinion about that. You are also free to believe whatever nasty things about me that you want. Like wanting to prevent people from being shot in church is gross.

[Barb_]

But to repeat an earlier point - I do think the media attention of these things is a problem. I think it plays right into the psychology of some people who feel they've been wronged somehow by society and they are just going to show everyone.

Suicide in a blaze of glory.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

God’s judgment is well deserved against every single one of us, American or not. Never forget. Repent. You can kill the body a millions ways, but that’s not what we should really be afraid of, so much as transgressing against a Holy God again and again and again. The consequences of that are a lot more far reaching that one short lifetime.

 

I personally detest the god/country confluence. But I believe God saves a people for himself from every tongue and nation, and there is nothing particularly special about the US if it departs from the principles gleaned from wisdom and with an eye on the inherent limits of government on a people bent toward immorality as a group. It’s not going to get less ugly without massive repentance by millions of people.

 

I’m sure this is falling on deaf ears. But it is also the truest thing I can say.

I agree, we need to repent of many things.

 

Systemic and institutionalized racism.

Oppression of minorities.

Lack of tolerance.

Inequality in education and housing.

The poisoning of children in Flint.

Laws that keep LGBTQ families from stability - now you're legally married, now you're not...

Turning blind eyes and deaf ears to refugees and homeless.

Ignoring Rohingya like we ignored Darfur.

Failing to be good stewards of our beautiful land, failing to keep protections for national parks and endangered wildlife.

Keeping two penal codes - one for whites and one for blacks.

Forcing the Dreamers to life in uncertainty and fear.

Failing every single family affected by mental illness, on some level, at some time over the course of their experience.

 

I could go on ALL day.

 

But the "what then" is very much up for debate. If we have lost our souls, some could interpret that God wants us to swallow our judgment and live with it. We deserve to have the innocents slaughtered? God is punishing us for our hate by letting a 14yo girl be murdered at church while her parents were out of town? You have to know that is not a mainstream perspective, and it is far too religious and sectarian to drive policy.

 

But others will say, "My country, when right to be kept right, when wrong to be made right," and embrace a responsibility given by nature and by nature's God to start taking care of each other! John Adams said that the founding fathers ideal of self government was for a moral and responsible people. Nobody else can manage it. If we have lost the ability to love our neighbor of our own volition, or to compel our brother to live peacefully through reason and relationship, then we will have to follow the example of others and restrain ourselves by law.