Please Tell Me WHY you *like* Saxon for Algebra and up...

[Zoo Keeper]

I cannot believe I'm asking this.... :leaving:

 

(I looked at Saxon Algebra years ago, and thought it looked like such a convoluted, slow, painful, death.)

 

 But my math-phobic one is currently flunking his Algebra 1B course ( he is 3 chapters into Lial's Beginning Algebra; he had Basic Algebra last year; when we started Geo this year its was very apparent that he retained nothing in Algebra...so back to Algebra again.) I do talk over the concepts with him. 

 

We cannot afford any outsourced classes.  There is no wiggle room in the budget right now.

 

My husband was trying to help me find a solution, and he remembered that he used Saxon back in the day at his private high school.  He was not mathy, but he remembers working hard and getting  A's and B's. We could borrow Saxon Algebra 1, 2, and Advanced Math from a friend.   He wants me to look into it.

 

So, convince me. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ethel Mertz]

We used Singapore through 6B. We tried and wanted to like Harold Jacob's Algebra course. Finally, I turned to Saxon (which I had strongly disliked in the early grades). We used Saxon for Algebra 1/2 in 8th grade and are now using it for Algebra. We also are using the dvds by Art Reed to reinforce the lessons (DS seems to like the dvds.)

 

Another point: While Saxon does have a separate geometry program, geometry is also integrated throughout Algebra 1 and 2, with the added benefit that DS doesn't forget his algebra while studying geometry. At the end of Algebra 2, you can award a full credit for Geometry.

 

So far, Saxon is working for our not-enthusiastic-about-math DS.

[MarkT]

In this case, Saxon sounds fine but also take a look at:

 

ALGEBRA I: A FRESH APPROACH

 

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/math/grades-9-12/a-fresh-approach-high-school-math-series

[Zoo Keeper]

Thanks, Ethel, for sharing some Saxon love…;)   And thanks, MarkT, for the Fresh Approach suggestion; I've seen that one mentioned before, but have never looked into it. Maybe it's time to...

 

 

 

You know that "at the end of my rope" feeling?  We've gone beyond that here.  He hates math and is so defeated right now. Honestly, I am as well. 

 

I just want to get him through Alg 1, 2, and Geo without either of us needing therapy afterwards. I'm willing to look at Saxon, if that is what does it.

 

 

[shinyhappypeople]

This 60 Minutes report from 1990 (The Gospel According to John Saxon) sold me on higher level Saxon math.   It's what we'll use when we get there. The video quality is truly horrible, but the audio is okay and gets the point across.  It's worth muddling through it.  

[Guest]

We only used Saxon Algebra II and Advanced Maths (we used all Singapore Math and a little AoPS before that).  We liked Saxon very much -- especially liked the integrated approach.  My dds are solid in the concepts they learned from their Saxon years. 

[Reefgazer]

I like it because it gives lots of teacher support, which I need to help my kids in advanced math, and because it incorporates lots of review and DD doesn't really get the chance to forget things because concepts learned long ago pop up as problems every so often later on.  I do, however, think it is not a good program for someone who likes to see the whole picture up front.

[FriedClams]

We've used it for algebra 1/2 through advanced math. DD, who finished advanced, is now DE taking College Precalculus. I thought calculus as a first DE/classroom/college class might be too much...bad call. Her Precalc class is a repeat of AM and she's crushing the class. She's actually bored and a little annoyed by it all (I was also hoping for more depth....fail). She also crushed the ACT and math on the SAT. I'm very pleased with it and am finishing algebra 2 with my second and expect to start AM with him in the winter. It's super solid, not distracting, and thorough. We use the Art Reed DVDs and they're an awesome supplement - clear, concise, helpful.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I liked the teacher support.  My kid liked the dry presentation (yes...seriously).

 

We used A1, A2, and part of AM.  He's now in Calc 2 at the CC (he'll be 16 in January...he aced all his math courses at the CC).  So I can't say Saxon doesn't get the job done.

 

 

[...................]

Well it may be annoying and repetitive but it gets results, if used as intended (not skipping any problems and going back if the student scores less than 80)

 

My son as a 9th grader got almost 700 on the SAT after only completing up to Saxon Algebra 2.  At 15, he is now taking pre-calc/trig for math majors at the community college and has a 99% GPA.   He likes math and feels very confident.

 

He hated the process of Saxon, but it worked for us.  WIth a low budget and no math skills, and the Saxon Teacher DVD's you can do this and your son can succeed.

 

BUT "fun" won't necessarily be in the bargain. :p  

 

THen again, being successful is more fun than failing!!

Edited November 4, 2017 by Calming Tea

[Free Indeed]

I do not "like" Saxon. My kids do not "like" Saxon. But it has all the teacher help I need, and they do acknowledge it has prepared them well for college math. It works, and I don't know that any of us would "like" any math program.

[Zoo Keeper]

Well, I  got Algebra 1 and 2 (3rd ed.)  to look over last night; I have the student book, the TM, and the solution manual. 

 

The TM--  it is just the like the student book, except that it has all the answers in the back. No additional commentary or anything...  Where's the TEACHING part?  Is all the teaching just all that script is in the student book and that's it? 

 

Am I missing something?

[Omma]

We used Singapore through 6B. We tried and wanted to like Harold Jacob's Algebra course. Finally, I turned to Saxon (which I had strongly disliked in the early grades). We used Saxon for Algebra 1/2 in 8th grade and are now using it for Algebra. We also are using the dvds by Art Reed to reinforce the lessons (DS seems to like the dvds.)

 

Another point: While Saxon does have a separate geometry program, geometry is also integrated throughout Algebra 1 and 2, with the added benefit that DS doesn't forget his algebra while studying geometry. At the end of Algebra 2, you can award a full credit for Geometry.

 

So far, Saxon is working for our not-enthusiastic-about-math DS.

 

Point of clarification:  through Algebra 2 = 1/2 credit of Geometry.  To get the other 1/2 credit, you need to complete the first 60 lessons of Saxon Adv. Math, I believe.

 

[Zoo Keeper]

I do not "like" Saxon. My kids do not "like" Saxon. But it has all the teacher help I need, and they do acknowledge it has prepared them well for college math. It works, and I don't know that any of us would "like" any math program.

 

Perhaps I should have titled my thread better... :001_cool:

 

"Tell me why I should use Saxon for Algebra and up."

 

 

I thought if I didn't ask for some "love", or at least some "like", all I would get is negativity -- I know that Saxon gets a bad rap   from many who feel it is not conceptual or ___ enough.

 

But I am glad to hear it worked for you and yours, even if it was not loved. :001_smile:

Edited November 4, 2017 by Zoo Keeper

[HollyDay]

Oldest dd loved Saxon.   I took her to homeschool bookfairs and friends houses and presented her with TT, MUS, Lial's, etc.  She kept coming back to Saxon...until PreCalculus.  She finished Saxon Algebra 2 and called it quits.  We did an independent Geometry program over the summer to finish that up and she started Lial's PreCalculus and liked it. 

 

I think dd liked Saxon because she wanted more review, more practice, more review, and more practice.  She liked the different topics and the jumping around.  Now that she is in college, she wants more "why."  She said she memorized the "how" but didn't necessarily understand the "why."  We used both Art Reed and Saxon Teacher. 

[OnMyOwn]

My dd likes Saxon.  She used Saxon 1/2, algebra 1 and algebra 2 and is currently using Saxon Calculus.  She does need me to keep her accountable with Saxon, though.  Otherwise, she has a tendency to just glance at the corrections she should make to assignments rather than actually working through correcting her work OR just not correcting her work for days and days and skipping problems that she's not sure about with big plans to come back to them later.  We ran into trouble at the end of Saxon algebra 2 because I wasn't involved enough.  After that, we went to DO for a quick run through algebra 2 again and then precalculus.  We started DO calculus this year, but she wanted to go back to Saxon, so I let her. She's using the Dive videos and I'm being vigilant about checking her work as soon as she's done with it and then having her make the corrections before going on to the next lesson.

 

At the end of DO precalculus, she was planning on taking the SAT math 2 subject test.  She was able to get almost everything right on the practice tests, but it was taking her way too long.  Now that she's about 30 lessons into Saxon, she can finish that subject test in 50 minutes, so the extra practice Saxon gives is a benefit to her.  

 

 

[OnMyOwn]

Oldest dd loved Saxon.   I took her to homeschool bookfairs and friends houses and presented her with TT, MUS, Lial's, etc.  She kept coming back to Saxon...until PreCalculus.  She finished Saxon Algebra 2 and called it quits.  We did an independent Geometry program over the summer to finish that up and she started Lial's PreCalculus and liked it. 

 

I think dd liked Saxon because she wanted more review, more practice, more review, and more practice.  She liked the different topics and the jumping around.  Now that she is in college, she wants more "why."  She said she memorized the "how" but didn't necessarily understand the "why."  We used both Art Reed and Saxon Teacher. 

 

I totally agree about Saxon teaching more about the "how" than the "why". When we did DO algebra 2 after finishing Saxon algebra 2, it all came together for my dd in a big way.  It only took a couple of months to go through DO algebra 2 because she already knew the "how".  When we started DO calculus, she and I both realized she would benefit from more practice than DO has in his Calculus course if she was going to be really solid with the concepts and I asked her how she would feel about trying Saxon Calculus and then following up with DO to pull it all together and she loved the idea because she remembered all those lightbulb moments she had when we had done that before.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by OnMyOwn

[Reefgazer]

I am going to need something other than Saxon for DS next year, and I am looking at this per your recommendation.  DS is comfortable with math and has a computer/engineering bent and I was wondering if you had anymore insight into this book?  I did look at the sample online, but it's hard to get a feel for the book from just a chapter 1 sample.  I was considering DO for DS, but now I am looking at this.  DS is in Saxon pre-algebra now, but there is a possibility he will go back to conventional school, so I need something more in line with conventional school preparation.

In this case, Saxon sounds fine but also take a look at:

 

ALGEBRA I: A FRESH APPROACH

 

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/math/grades-9-12/a-fresh-approach-high-school-math-series

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by reefgazer

[Ellie]

About Saxon teaching--or not teaching--the "whys." Here is a response from Janet in WA on this forum a number of years ago:
 

 

In my experience, Saxon always teaches the “whyâ€. And they always introduce new concepts by relating them to previous ones. In fact, another criticism I’ve heard about the high school level books is that the lessons are too long -- too wordy. That’s because they spend so much time explaining. However, because of Saxon’s incremental design, you won’t always find the full explanation for “why†in any one lesson. Sometimes it takes many lessons, over a protracted period of time, before the student has all the pieces to a concept, and knows why he’s learned it and how it will be applied. For example, he’ll learn and practice a particular method of solving simultaneous equations. He’ll practice it for many days, in fact, with no real certainty why. Then, when he’s gotten proficient at that technique, Saxon will introduce a new kind of word problem for which that method of equation solving is useful. The student THEN sees why he learned that method. In other more traditional texts, with concepts taught in chapter format, this connection would be made more quickly and obviously. As carol nj says, Saxon is a “parts to whole†kind of math. You need to look at the whole picture to appreciate Saxon -- not just each book as a whole, but the whole series.

 

Also, sometimes the “why†of a concept isn’t found in a lesson because the student has seen that concept before in a previous book -- and the “why†was explained at the time the concept was first taught, not when he sees it as review. Now and then we’ll hit a lesson that seems to just tell the student how to do something new, and never much about why, but those always turn out to be things Saxon doesn’t place much importance on, and the student won’t see them or use them much.

 

Now let me say, the fact that Saxon explains the “why†behind concepts doesn’t mean a student will understand that explanation -- or remember it. With Saxon’s incremental format, some students have difficulty mastering concepts, and connecting them. And the tone of Saxon’s high school books is rather “academicâ€, and the length and wordiness of the lessons turns some students off. But the content is there.

 

Let me also say that though I like Saxon for high school, I never recommend that someone start using Saxon for the first time at that level. It is so different from anything else that I think the chances are good that it will be difficult for a student to switch to it at that point. Some students do fine, but I’m not comfortable making that recommendation myself. So please don’t think that you should switch to it because of anything I’ve said. The only point of my posts is to reassure people that Saxon isn’t lacking

 

 

[....]

Dd15 started Saxon at Algebra 1.   :D  She is almost to the trig/precalculus book (Advanced Mathematics or whatever it's called).  This is actually the most success she's ever had with one program, besides Singapore math.

 

Why we're using it: 

 

1.  It has every problem worked out, line-by-line, in the answer book.

2.  There are millions of super-cheap copies floating around on eBay.  

3.  It constantly reviews concepts that were previously taught.

4.  It's supposed to be self-teaching, so it is really explained to you like you have no clue what you're doing...with lots of examples.  And lots and lots of problems.   :glare:  

5.  It's integrated math - so the geometry is included.  Three books for 4 credit hours of math.

[LinRTX]

Saxon does teach the why. So many kids are self-teaching Saxon that they do not see it. The quickly read the why to go to the how so they can get done more quickly.

 

The way I teach Saxon is to make her do the why on the white board (without the book). Basically I write something down and say with what you know what should happen here. Making her use the knowledge works well. 

[CAJinBE]

We like it because of the constant review and all the practice problems. My daughter catches on to things quickly, but forgets quickly too. This program doesn't allow her to forget. I like the full answer key because it saves me a lot of time and I know math. On a few occasions I've had to pull some material out of a traditional textbook to pull ideas together for her if the concept has been too strung out over too many lessons. For example, it was helpful to look at a chapter on trigonometry and the unit circle in a traditional textbook for both of us to review. I knew how to get answers, but needed refreshers on the "whys" myself. It does seem to work. We use DIVE streaming videos with Advanced Math right now.

[....]

The way I teach Saxon is to make her do the why on the white board (without the book). Basically I write something down and say with what you know what should happen here. Making her use the knowledge works well. 

 

This is how we do Saxon, too.  I work through the lesson on the dry erase board.  For example problems, I have her explain to me "what do I do next and why".  If she gets a problem wrong, we go back to the dry erase board and walk through the problem.  I do this with my son's MUS Algebra, also.  

[OnMyOwn]

Saxon does teach the why. So many kids are self-teaching Saxon that they do not see it. The quickly read the why to go to the how so they can get done more quickly.

.

Bingo! I know this is what my dd did with algebra 2. She skimmed to get to the how. And then she skipped the practice problems for the new concept because "she already knew how to do it". So maybe we won't have that problem after calculus since we are using the Dive videos with it and I'm staying involved? I've been watching the videos with her and she keeps trying to fast forward even when I'm with her, lol.

[OnMyOwn]

This is how we do Saxon, too. I work through the lesson on the dry erase board. For example problems, I have her explain to me "what do I do next and why". If she gets a problem wrong, we go back to the dry erase board and walk through the problem. I do this with my son's MUS Algebra, also.

Well, you and Linda are both doing it right. I guess I had always been under the impression that Saxon was designed to be used independently since it is written to the student. My dd is independent with all her other classes, so I never thought I needed to be more involved with Saxon until we ran into trouble at the end of algebra 2. My dd likes math, but it's not where her real strengths lie. Also, the Saxon lessons can be long, and she has lots of other things to do, so she tries to make them more efficient.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've never understood the argument of "Saxon doesn't teach the why's, only the how's". That argument just baffles me.

 

It baffles me as well.

 

Now one thing IS true (to me), it is dry.  Very dry.  It might be a turn off for a math hater.  But I suppose it depends on why the person hates math. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, I  got Algebra 1 and 2 (3rd ed.)  to look over last night; I have the student book, the TM, and the solution manual. 

 

The TM--  it is just the like the student book, except that it has all the answers in the back. No additional commentary or anything...  Where's the TEACHING part?  Is all the teaching just all that script is in the student book and that's it? 

 

Am I missing something?

 

Probably people are referring to the teaching CDs or DVDs.  There are three different ones out there: Art Reed, DIVE, and Saxon Teacher. 

[freesia]

Well, I got Algebra 1 and 2 (3rd ed.) to look over last night; I have the student book, the TM, and the solution manual.

 

The TM-- it is just the like the student book, except that it has all the answers in the back. No additional commentary or anything... Where's the TEACHING part? Is all the teaching just all that script is in the student book and that's it?

 

Am I missing something?

You can use the videos, but I go through the script and work the example problems in front of my student. Sometimes I read it to them and sometimes I summarize. Then he or she works the practice problems and I check and correct. For our family that works better than them reading or watching a video. However, my oldest did eventually use just a video for calculus, but I don't think he has a great inderstanding. Explaining in person and being right there to correct misconceptions works best here for all math but geometry (we use TT for geometry as we are using the fourth edition Saxon )

[MarkT]

Well, I  got Algebra 1 and 2 (3rd ed.)  to look over last night; I have the student book, the TM, and the solution manual. 

 

The TM--  it is just the like the student book, except that it has all the answers in the back. No additional commentary or anything...  Where's the TEACHING part?  Is all the teaching just all that script is in the student book and that's it? 

 

Am I missing something?

I never recommend buying teacher editions if a solution manual is available.

 

Sometimes teacher editions have pacing guides, lesson plans, etc but you can usually find that for free with an internet search.

 

You may want 

Saxon Algebra 1, Test Forms

https://www.christianbook.com/saxon-algebra-1-test-forms/9781565771390/pd/98427?event=CPOF

 

https://www.christianbook.com/saxon-algebra-answer-booklet-test-forms/9781565771383/pd/14444?event=CPOF

 

if you choose to go Saxon.

 

They now have a Common Core supplement (FYI only)

 

https://www.christianbook.com/on-core-mathematics-algebra-1-bundle/9780547873916/pd/787391?event=CPOF

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

I've never understood the argument of "Saxon doesn't teach the why's, only the how's". That argument just baffles me.

 

It baffles me as well.

 

Saxon is a solid program for those who click with it. So for students who are sequential learners and who are abstract thinkers, yes, Saxon does teach the why *in a way that connects for them*. 

 

However, Saxon's method of instruction is very abstract, as is focuses on the algorithms and equation steps for teaching the "why" -- which does not at all connect for visual-spatial learners who need concrete and big picture to get the "why". If a student doesn't "speak the language" of Saxon's teaching style, then the result is exactly the same as if Saxon does NOT teach the "why" -- the "why" is taught in a way that is absolutely foreign and opaque to the student. :)

 

Yes, I have been guilty of wrongly saying Saxon doesn't teach the "why". I have done so for two reasons:

1. because of the lack of fit (described above),

2. but also because the layout and design of the text -- the "why" tends to be small and buried in comparison to the lengthy algorithm and equation steps in the informational part of the lesson, and especially visually "hidden" compared to the visually dense problem set (too many problems, on too many different topics, all too closely packed together)

 

For a visual-spatial learner that all becomes an inaccessible wall. I am referring to the older Saxon editions, so hopefully this design "flaw" has been rectified in the more recent editions. :)

[Vida Winter]

I love the clear explanations in the textbook for each lesson. I love the way they explain math terminology. I love the way each homework problem has a reference number in parenthesis indicating which lesson number taught that concept.

[Carrie12345]

I love the clear explanations in the textbook for each lesson. I love the way they explain math terminology. I love the way each homework problem has a reference number in parenthesis indicating which lesson number taught that concept.

 

The bolded is a huge part of my love.  It gives my kids a chance to refresh their memories independently, but it also helps me identify what they might be struggling with when they get something wrong.  When I can see that 3 incorrect answers call back to lesson 32, I can flip back to lesson 32 and have them reread it, re-frame it for them, or find supplementary instruction and practice instead of working through each problem myself and trying to find the disconnect.

[mschickie]

My dd loves Saxon.  She does the reading and does get the why.  Occasionally we do need to go over something but she can usually get the concept after reviewing the examples.  The well laid out examples and how they walk the student through them is something I love about Saxon.  I also love the constant review.  Students are not really allowed to forget previous concepts because the material is constantly showing up in their assignments.  The solutions guide really does a nice job of a step by step approach so you can see where your child is making their errors.  

 

We are just finishing up Advanced and will be starting on their Calculus book this year.

[vmsurbat]

Honestly, all the PPs have stated why Saxon can be a great fit....  I agree with all of them and will add two more points:

 

1.  The B&W style of the textbook were WAY less busy than many other math texts which were littered with color, off set text, offset text in boxes, and more. The Saxon textbooks included actual text which could be read through without a lot of jumping around--a big plus for our family.

 

 2.  John Saxon originally wrote his books not because he loved math but because he needed math to do what he loved (engineering).  You definitely feel this vibe in his books--compare his texts to Harold Jacob's books--Jacob's LOVED math and it shines through.  My kids all enjoyed math and while they could appreciate Jacob's texts (I had his Algebra and Geo texts--I loved math and majored in it), they preferred to work through Saxon and retained more.  

 

PS.  Three of my kids went on to STEM majors and the other two took Calculus in college just because they could. :-)

Edited November 7, 2017 by vmsurbat

[katilac]

I know that Saxon gets a bad rap   from many who feel it is not conceptual or ___ enough. 

 

 

I've never understood the argument of "Saxon doesn't teach the why's, only the how's". That argument just baffles me.

 

The homeschool community is as susceptible to fads and trends as any other group. There was a time on these very boards when not using Saxon got you some serious side eye. You were obviously not serious/rigorous about math. 

 

We did not use Saxon in high school, unfortunately I think we did it the wrong way around and my kids were Saxon'd out by high school. We used Singapore and Saxon through level 6 for oldest and level 5 for youngest, then Saxon for a couple of years. 

 

I did have my b-i-l take a look at several different high school math programs. I used to house the library for my homeschool group, so I had them at hand, and he's a physicist and thus the mathiest, I actually use math at work person I know. He was strongly in favor of Saxon. He said that it did look super dry, but that it was also much more thorough than any of the other books. Two books might list the same topic, but Saxon would go deeper into that topic. 

 

One more semester, and I will have survived high school math twice and thankfully will never have to do so again. Oldest dd is a math minor, so the tears and trauma did not completely ruin her  :laugh: