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I want to teach math w/out a curriculum. (dyscalculia) UPDATE


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#51 PeterPan

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:07 PM

Does she have a tech device with a calendar app? Setting up a calendar and timers is work, so take some time and pick well. I really like Calendars5, which is an apple app, because of the colored squares. I think google calendar uses them. You want it to be easy for her to use on her device.

 

What I do is have LOTS of calendars in the account. So for me I have Mom main, Mom private, blah blah, dd school, dd private, dd church, ds main, etc. Then you tick on the device which calendars you want to show, so her private calendars don't appear on your phone or whatever. 

 

So then what you've got is the ability to log in to any device (tablet, laptop, phone, etc.) and all her alarms, all her calendars are there.


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#52 stephensgirls

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:34 PM

I think she uses Google calendar. She's really good at setting reminders for herself and then ignoring them when she gets the notifications. I'm pretty good at that myself. 

 

 


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#53 stephensgirls

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:39 PM

OhElizabeth, you sound like an extremely organized person. Your calendar system makes my head explode. I feel like some of my responses on this thread make me look kinda dumb like "why haven't you thought of this before?" Organization is not my strong suit. 

 

Off to register my older dd for the December ACT. At the last minute. 


Edited by stephensgirls, 03 November 2017 - 09:42 PM.


#54 PeterPan

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:42 PM

No actually, I'm terribly, terribly hairbrained. It's just stuff I've figured out, which is why I was passing it on. You've got a lot going on. She's old enough and proactive enough that she can figure out how to use the tech herself if you give it to her. More than anything I was trying to say you're on the right track. :)


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#55 kbutton

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 09:47 PM

You can also be old-fashioned with paper and pencil if you want to. I can't do online stuff at all, but I can do paper and then set alarms anyway. All of those recurring appointments and stuff on Google (or any calendar) drive me nuts because I feel like I spend as much time fiddling with the exceptions (days off, etc.) that I might as well have written it all out by hand, lol! I remember things I write down differently than I do things I put on a device. 

 

But I don't have a phone--I have an ipod, but no phone service. I do have a tracfone, just not a do-it-all phone. 


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#56 stephensgirls

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 10:13 PM

No actually, I'm terribly, terribly hairbrained. It's just stuff I've figured out, which is why I was passing it on. You've got a lot going on. She's old enough and proactive enough that she can figure out how to use the tech herself if you give it to her. More than anything I was trying to say you're on the right track. :)

 

Ha ha! Thx! Glad I'm not alone! Today I showed up for an Honor Society meeting with my other dd that turns out is actually on the 8th. Good times.

 

You can also be old-fashioned with paper and pencil if you want to. I can't do online stuff at all, but I can do paper and then set alarms anyway. All of those recurring appointments and stuff on Google (or any calendar) drive me nuts because I feel like I spend as much time fiddling with the exceptions (days off, etc.) that I might as well have written it all out by hand, lol! I remember things I write down differently than I do things I put on a device. 

 

But I don't have a phone--I have an ipod, but no phone service. I do have a tracfone, just not a do-it-all phone. 

 

I love paper and pencil! I have a spiral notebook for number crunching, budgets, bill due dates, lists, plans, etc. It's totally random and disorganized--just like my brain, but I know where everything is in it. :)


Edited by stephensgirls, 03 November 2017 - 10:18 PM.

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#57 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 03 November 2017 - 10:45 PM

OhElizabeth, you sound like an extremely organized person. Your calendar system makes my head explode. I feel like some of my responses on this thread make me look kinda dumb like "why haven't you thought of this before?" Organization is not my strong suit. 

 

Off to register my older dd for the December ACT. At the last minute. 

Not dumb.  Not at all.  What it sounds like is what many of us deal with, either with our kids or ourselves or both.  Executive Function issues.  Even when you know something needs to be done, actually DOING it, on time, on the right day, the way it is expected to be done, can be exceedingly challenging for anyone with weaknesses in EF.  

 

Goodness knows (especially after cancer treatments) my EF issues are profound.  I have to overcompensate by putting in a ton of external supports to remind me or NOTHING gets done.  For starters, I have 4 zillion alarms on my phone and my phone is linked to my watch.  Even if I put my phone down, the alarm goes off on my watch.  DD also has serious EF issues.  She is dyscalculic.  Profoundly so.  But that doesn't just affect her math sense in an academic way.  She has no sense of the passage of time so she cannot sense how much time has passed.  Makes it challenging to judge how much time she needs to do something or when to stop doing something to get ready to go somewhere, etc.  Alarms on her phone and mine, master lists printed out daily for what needs to be done each day AND the remainder of the week, plus our wall calendar, etc. and both of us backing each other up and keeping each other on task are how we survive.  

 

So nope, you don't sound dumb at all.  You just sound like a lot of the rest of us.   :laugh:


Edited by OneStepAtATime, 03 November 2017 - 10:46 PM.

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#58 MistyMountain

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 02:31 AM

I find that I am not liking using our current math curriculum especially for the child who is struggling but I also do not think I could manage on my own either with my older child. I managed to do a lot of hands on concrete things last year with my youngest mostly using supplements and it really has given her a good foundation but I could only do it for so long before I wanted a curriculum. Most curriculums have done if what I am looking for but not all.

I am trying to catch my oldest up and I feel like the curriculum I am using is not working well. I also got Ronit Bird Overcoming Difficulties With Numbers hoping to get ideas of other ways to teach what the curriculum covered and I am just not liking how it is organized so I have bit really used it. It is hard to find where exactly the disconnect is. It is not with the earliest number sense stuff but there is a disconnect. I am intrigued by either Math on the Level or that curriculum mentioned in another post where you have a skills checklist and lessons for the missing skills. I want conceptual concrete ways of teaching that transitions away from that to paper. I like the kind of thing they do on Education Unboxed but I need it with an organized plan and mostly not video based. I do not find myself doing enough concrete when the curriculum does not include it and it gets harder with higher math anyway.

I for sure have executive functioning issues myself though and I am not very organized. I cannot just put together my own thing but maybe if something was clearly laid out I can find ways of hitting those topics.

#59 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 09:07 AM

I find that I am not liking using our current math curriculum especially for the child who is struggling but I also do not think I could manage on my own either with my older child. I managed to do a lot of hands on concrete things last year with my youngest mostly using supplements and it really has given her a good foundation but I could only do it for so long before I wanted a curriculum. Most curriculums have done if what I am looking for but not all.

I am trying to catch my oldest up and I feel like the curriculum I am using is not working well. I also got Ronit Bird Overcoming Difficulties With Numbers hoping to get ideas of other ways to teach what the curriculum covered and I am just not liking how it is organized so I have bit really used it. It is hard to find where exactly the disconnect is. It is not with the earliest number sense stuff but there is a disconnect. I am intrigued by either Math on the Level or that curriculum mentioned in another post where you have a skills checklist and lessons for the missing skills. I want conceptual concrete ways of teaching that transitions away from that to paper. I like the kind of thing they do on Education Unboxed but I need it with an organized plan and mostly not video based. I do not find myself doing enough concrete when the curriculum does not include it and it gets harder with higher math anyway.

I for sure have executive functioning issues myself though and I am not very organized. I cannot just put together my own thing but maybe if something was clearly laid out I can find ways of hitting those topics.

FWIW, Math on the Level has a skills checklist.  The first thing you do (although you don't have to but it is recommended) is to move through their skills checklist to see where to start in the various concepts/topics/skills and then use the recommended lessons to begin where the child is at.  

 

 

For those considering Math on the Level...

 

I love Math on the Level but as a person who struggles with EF issues, I will say you have to be disciplined enough and consistent enough to actually learn how to use the program and adapt it to the needs of your child.  This is not just a hand your kid a workbook and call it good type of program.  If you need it all pre-printed, pre-planned, then CLE is a better option and can be adapted as needed to a specific child's situation.  Math on the Level is great and VERY adaptable but as a parent you HAVE to learn how the system works, how that checklist works, how the tracking and review system works.  They explain it all and they have example pacing and a lot of support so it isn't like you are thrown to the wolves.  This is just a very different system from what most of us are used to so it can take some brain effort to get used to how it works.  Someone who groks this stuff intuitively would probably take 5 minutes to figure it out.  For a lot of us it will take a bit more effort.  Not impossible by any means and I LOVE their system, but it does take some effort to learn how to use it. 


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#60 exercise_guru

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 09:28 AM

I feel for you because I have a son  who has dysgraphia and getting him to write down the process is very difficult for him. I changed my method to white boards and also numberlines and models like pennies and shapes for groupings and manipulations. Once we get the base level we build on it with different tactile options. My son is ok at math but because he has some short term memory issues his mental math is off. He will go to great lengths not to write down his thought process which really adds to the problem. I have found that if he works the problems on a white board and then I just take a picture of the work before he erases things go much better. 

 

Over the summer we did pursue vision therapy and that changed everything about his ability to write down numbers, number lines and shapes. I still really like those wipeable charts and sheets of number lines from lakeshore learning that it speeds up the process and decreases frustration. The key with math is first "getting it" and then "doing it" the repetitions have to be enough to cement the concept and skill. that is tough if a child hates to write it down. Both my husband and I have advanced degrees that rely heavily on mathematics and we think with a pencil all the time. I write everything down and even with mental math I make small notes and move down one line at a time. We were taught to show every bit of our work. I think its helpful for someone who struggles with math to do this unfortunately when it bangs up with dysgraphia it takes some creativity and trying a few different things. With anything I would keep a log of what you think is working with your daughter and what areas are improving. Push those areas strongly so she can achieve success. Then look at the areas she is struggling and keep searching for ideas or techniques to help her work through that. 


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#61 Heathermomster

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Posted 04 November 2017 - 11:24 AM

We organize with paper at my house.  We tried digital for years and years, and DS never made it workable.  I carry a daytimer to write appointments in while DS writes his items down in his planner.

 

OP, have you looked into workboxes?  You plan out the assignments ahead of time, and then the student selects the ordering of what to do first.  The work is clearly identified and placed in one location for the student to grab and go.  You could have 3 morning options and then 3 afternoon options which enables you to maintain positive control while enabling your student to exert some choice.  I expect that the Teachers Pay Teachers website may have some excellent and low-cost options. 

 

 

 

 


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#62 stephensgirls

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 07:10 PM

Y'all have given me lots to think about--so many good ideas. My take aways just from going back over some of this tonight:

 

Give dd clear expectations about what the school day will look like ahead of time.

 

Use something visual to communicate the expectations.

 

Use something hands on to communicate the expectations. (trying to figure out how I can make the workbox thing work) 

 

When I had all four kids at home, I used to type up ahead of time the week's worth of assignments for each subject--for each kid. I would hang them on the fridge, so they could check off their assignments. I don't know why I stopped doing this! I'm going to go back to that, but do something more easily visible. Y'all had some good ideas about how to do that.

 

Still considering MOTL in spite of my EF issues. I don't mind digging in and figuring it out. And if I get back to doing the planning ahead of time ^^^ like I used to, I don't think I'll have too much trouble implementing it. I know I won't be perfect about it...


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#63 Heathermomster

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:15 PM

Here's another work box link with an excel spreadsheet example...

 

http://www.confessio...box-system.html


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#64 PeterPan

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:33 PM

nt

SaveSave


Edited by OhElizabeth, 05 November 2017 - 11:20 PM.


#65 PeterPan

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:49 PM

nt


Edited by OhElizabeth, 05 November 2017 - 11:19 PM.


#66 Storygirl

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 11:46 PM

Frogger, I should clarify... I didn't say she was good at mental math. just that she's better than I am. That's really not saying much. ;)

 

Her diagnosis comes because she performed so poorly on the standardized achievement test in math that was administered by the psychologist. So she can get through a MM lesson with me, she seems to understand the concepts at the time, but nothing sticks. Not just transferring to real life math but also in a different academic setting. It's very strange to me. It's not something I have a good grasp on at all. 

 

I just wanted to comment that DS's math disability presents like this. He is enrolled in school and gets a lot of help from both his math teacher and the intervention specialist. The IS has worked with DS long enough to understand how his disability presents. But the math teacher still doesn't quite get it, I think. Because DS can follow the directions for that day's work and can seem to understand it  -- mostly and with some difficulty, but he can complete the assignments. So it seems like he is progressing and understanding.

 

However, he forgets everything that is not continually practiced. And by late elementary and middle school, early math concepts are not practiced in the curriculum any more, because it is assumed the kids have mastered them. But for DS, the foundation is not there; it has faded away.

 

So it seems like he is understanding the lesson of the day, but it is like building a tower of blocks on top of a stack of toothpicks. The foundation is shaky and just crumbles away, and the new material does not ever solidify into true understanding.

 

DS bombs standardized testing in math. Completely. I can see math getting harder for him each year.

 

It's a different math disability than someone who has trouble remembering math facts (I have one child like that, as well) or mental math. It's a different shade of dyscalculia. It's not about number sense but about understanding concepts.

 

 


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#67 stephensgirls

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:06 AM

I just wanted to comment that DS's math disability presents like this. He is enrolled in school and gets a lot of help from both his math teacher and the intervention specialist. The IS has worked with DS long enough to understand how his disability presents. But the math teacher still doesn't quite get it, I think. Because DS can follow the directions for that day's work and can seem to understand it  -- mostly and with some difficulty, but he can complete the assignments. So it seems like he is progressing and understanding.

 

However, he forgets everything that is not continually practiced. And by late elementary and middle school, early math concepts are not practiced in the curriculum any more, because it is assumed the kids have mastered them. But for DS, the foundation is not there; it has faded away.

 

So it seems like he is understanding the lesson of the day, but it is like building a tower of blocks on top of a stack of toothpicks. The foundation is shaky and just crumbles away, and the new material does not ever solidify into true understanding.

 

DS bombs standardized testing in math. Completely. I can see math getting harder for him each year.

 

It's a different math disability than someone who has trouble remembering math facts (I have one child like that, as well) or mental math. It's a different shade of dyscalculia. It's not about number sense but about understanding concepts.

 

Yes! This sounds so much like my daughter.  The tower of blocks on top of a stack of toothpicks--perfect analogy. That is why I'm doing the Ronit Bird materials even though it seems too easy for her. And it being a different shade of dyscalculia--it's impossible to put my finger on just what the problem is, and she doesn't exactly fit the profile of "signs of dyscalculia" that I read. If you get it all figured out, please advise me! :) Thanks for sharing. 


Edited by stephensgirls, 06 November 2017 - 12:10 AM.

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#68 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:08 AM

Y'all have given me lots to think about--so many good ideas. My take aways just from going back over some of this tonight:

 

Give dd clear expectations about what the school day will look like ahead of time.

 

Use something visual to communicate the expectations.

 

Use something hands on to communicate the expectations. (trying to figure out how I can make the workbox thing work) 

 

When I had all four kids at home, I used to type up ahead of time the week's worth of assignments for each subject--for each kid. I would hang them on the fridge, so they could check off their assignments. I don't know why I stopped doing this! I'm going to go back to that, but do something more easily visible. Y'all had some good ideas about how to do that.

 

Still considering MOTL in spite of my EF issues. I don't mind digging in and figuring it out. And if I get back to doing the planning ahead of time ^^^ like I used to, I don't think I'll have too much trouble implementing it. I know I won't be perfect about it...

One thing about MOTL, there are a lot of supports and it really does walk you through the whole system.  You just need to take the time to actually read through the guide for how to implement it.  I recommend, if you do decide to buy this, skimming through the guide and looking at the check systems, then letting it percolate a bit.  Return to it in a couple of days, read through it all in a bit more detail, then start working on the implementation.  Plan on at least a week to get set up and clear on what to do.  It might take just a couple of hours but on the chance that you find it more challenging to wrap your brain around, at least you built in that extra time before planning to start.

 

As for organizing everything, would something like Homeschool Planet help you?  It is available through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.  



#69 stephensgirls

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:20 AM

One thing about MOTL, there are a lot of supports and it really does walk you through the whole system.  You just need to take the time to actually read through the guide for how to implement it.  I recommend, if you do decide to buy this, skimming through the guide and looking at the check systems, then letting it percolate a bit.  Return to it in a couple of days, read through it all in a bit more detail, then start working on the implementation.  Plan on at least a week to get set up and clear on what to do.  It might take just a couple of hours but on the chance that you find it more challenging to wrap your brain around, at least you built in that extra time before planning to start.

 

As for organizing everything, would something like Homeschool Planet help you?  It is available through Homeschool Buyer's Co-op.  

 

Thanks for the recommendations! It never ceases to amaze me all the different resources that are out there for homeschoolers that I still have no knowledge of--even now that I have two in college. I've been at this awhile, but I know nothing about Homeschool Planet. I'll check it out. 

 

Also, I went ahead and ordered MOTL because they have a 60 day trial period. I found a listing on eBay for a used set, but I decided it was worth it to pay more and get the option to return it if it won't work for us. I've spent the evening scouring the internet for reviews on MOTL, and from all that I've read, it seems like the best option for our situation other than going it alone.


Edited by stephensgirls, 06 November 2017 - 12:31 AM.

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#70 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:30 AM

Thanks for the recommendations! It never ceases to amaze me all the different resources that are out there for homeschoolers that I still have no knowledge of--even now that I have two in college. I've been at this awhile, but I know nothing about Homeschool Planet. I'll check it out. 

 

Also, I went ahead and ordered MOTL because they have a 60 day trial period. I found a listing on eBay for a used set, but I decided it was worth it to pay more and get the option to return it if it won't work for us.

I run into new stuff all the time.  And some of it has been around for years.  I'm amazed, too, by what is available.  It is kind of information overload.  

 

I didn't know about the 60 day trial period.  That's great!  If you have questions about MotL or Homeschool Planet let me know.  I can try and answer them for you.  


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#71 Storygirl

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 12:56 AM

Yes! This sounds so much like my daughter.  The tower of blocks on top of a stack of toothpicks--perfect analogy. That is why I'm doing the Ronit Bird materials even though it seems too easy for her. And it being a different shade of dyscalculia--it's impossible to put my finger on just what the problem is, and she doesn't exactly fit the profile of "signs of dyscalculia" that I read. If you get it all figured out, please advise me! :) Thanks for sharing. 

 

In DS13's case, he has Nonverbal Learning Disorder (NVLD), which keeps him from generalizing concepts and being able to apply previously learned material to new problems. The math disability is related. He has very low visual spatial and processing scores on his IQ testing.

 

We will keep plugging away, but the reality is that for people who have NVLD plus a severe math disability, their math disability gets worse over time, not better. So we are not sure how far DS will really progress in math past this middle school level. He will likely be in the resource room (special ed) for high school math, instead of in the regular classes (he will be in public school for high school).

 

I deliberately left doom and gloom statements out of my previous post, because the path that we see ahead for DS is his path and may not apply to your situation. We encourage him and try to present a positive attitude about math to him as we help him with his homework, but DH and I are also privately thinking realistically about how he will move forward in math over the next few years.

 

As far as how to teach him....since he is enrolled in school, the methods his school uses won't apply to homeschooling.

 

Except his intervention specialist did just make us a packet of math reference sheets covering a wide variety of topics (maybe 30 or 40 pages). We put them in page protector sheets and are organizing them in a binder, so that DS and DH can reference them while studying and doing homework.

 

It's meant to be a toolkit to help with the forgetting problem.


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#72 stephensgirls

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:05 AM

In DS13's case, he has Nonverbal Learning Disorder (NVLD), which keeps him from generalizing concepts and being able to apply previously learned material to new problems. The math disability is related. He has very low visual spatial and processing scores on his IQ testing.

 

We will keep plugging away, but the reality is that for people who have NVLD plus a severe math disability, their math disability gets worse over time, not better. So we are not sure how far DS will really progress in math past this middle school level. He will likely be in the resource room (special ed) for high school math, instead of in the regular classes (he will be in public school for high school).

 

I deliberately left doom and gloom statements out of my previous post, because the path that we see ahead for DS is his path and may not apply to your situation. We encourage him and try to present a positive attitude about math to him as we help him with his homework, but DH and I are also privately thinking realistically about how he will move forward in math over the next few years.

 

As far as how to teach him....since he is enrolled in school, the methods his school uses won't apply to homeschooling.

 

Except his intervention specialist did just make us a packet of math reference sheets covering a wide variety of topics (maybe 30 or 40 pages). We put them in page protector sheets and are organizing them in a binder, so that DS and DH can reference them while studying and doing homework.

 

It's meant to be a toolkit to help with the forgetting problem.

 

This is hard to hear, but I'm glad you shared. I'm not to the point of doom and gloom yet, but I like to think that I'm realistic. This next couple of years will be very telling for us. I know there is a chance that dd won't ever be able to comprehend higher level math. I just don't know yet--not until we try. 


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#73 scoutingmom

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 12:01 AM

I just wanted to comment that DS's math disability presents like this. He is enrolled in school and gets a lot of help from both his math teacher and the intervention specialist. The IS has worked with DS long enough to understand how his disability presents. But the math teacher still doesn't quite get it, I think. Because DS can follow the directions for that day's work and can seem to understand it -- mostly and with some difficulty, but he can complete the assignments. So it seems like he is progressing and understanding.

However, he forgets everything that is not continually practiced. And by late elementary and middle school, early math concepts are not practiced in the curriculum any more, because it is assumed the kids have mastered them. But for DS, the foundation is not there; it has faded away.

So it seems like he is understanding the lesson of the day, but it is like building a tower of blocks on top of a stack of toothpicks. The foundation is shaky and just crumbles away, and the new material does not ever solidify into true understanding.

DS bombs standardized testing in math. Completely. I can see math getting harder for him each year.

It's a different math disability than someone who has trouble remembering math facts (I have one child like that, as well) or mental math. It's a different shade of dyscalculia. It's not about number sense but about understanding concepts.

Oh I am wondering if this is what is up with my son

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#74 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 07:59 AM

I just wanted to comment that DS's math disability presents like this. He is enrolled in school and gets a lot of help from both his math teacher and the intervention specialist. The IS has worked with DS long enough to understand how his disability presents. But the math teacher still doesn't quite get it, I think. Because DS can follow the directions for that day's work and can seem to understand it  -- mostly and with some difficulty, but he can complete the assignments. So it seems like he is progressing and understanding.

 

However, he forgets everything that is not continually practiced. And by late elementary and middle school, early math concepts are not practiced in the curriculum any more, because it is assumed the kids have mastered them. But for DS, the foundation is not there; it has faded away.

 

So it seems like he is understanding the lesson of the day, but it is like building a tower of blocks on top of a stack of toothpicks. The foundation is shaky and just crumbles away, and the new material does not ever solidify into true understanding.

 

DS bombs standardized testing in math. Completely. I can see math getting harder for him each year.

 

It's a different math disability than someone who has trouble remembering math facts (I have one child like that, as well) or mental math. It's a different shade of dyscalculia. It's not about number sense but about understanding concepts.

DD struggles with all areas of issue: memorizing math facts, mental math, number sense and retaining anything long term.  Talk about a long, slow slog up a steep hill in a blizzard wearing cement galoshes. LOL

 

All of those things make this process much harder but the hardest may be how rapidly something seemingly learned would just disappear again.  It took a while for me to realize that just because, in that moment, DD seemed to be grasping something and doing well with it, that didn't mean that the next time we did it she would have any recall at all.  It was a very frustrating, demoralizing experience for both of us.  It felt like every time we seemed to make progress we would end up back at square one.  Not even square one, actually.  We would lost ground because DD would get so down that something she thought she knew was no longer available to her.  It was if the knowledge had been surgically removed from her brain.  Why keep trying if after tremendous effort and time spent, the information would simply be gone?  We did finally find ways that worked better and things are sticking.  We just have to do a LOT, I mean a LOT, of review of everything.  To keep her from being overwhelmed and not having to do 8-10 hours of math every day (she is usually overloaded after an hour), I had to get clever with built in review (thanks to Math on the Level I found a wonderful way to keep track and keep various concepts/algorithms woven into our day without overwhelming her).

 

Measuring to the quarter inch is an example of how things would just disappear.  Well, measuring of any kind would just not stick.  We worked for years to reach a point where measuring of any kind actually computed but even when it would click and she would do it correctly for a week or two, if we stopped reviewing, boom that information would be gone.  She would stare at the ruler or the measuring cup or the thermometer and have literally no idea how to measure.  Since I find measuring rather useful in daily life (certainly far more useful and needed than Algebra) we kept at it (short lessons alongside her normal math) but I realized that we had to incorporate it into our daily lives DAILY.  She now can measure to the quarter inch with a ruler even if she hasn't done it in a few weeks and does well with a measuring cup and mostly can read a thermometer fairly accurately.  She cannot measure to the eighth inch without some help but, hey, I'm happy we got to the quarter inch.  It just took daily short lessons over years for it to finally click and stick with any longevity. 

 

Unfortunately, most tutors/teachers are not going to understand that this level of constant review could possibly be needed or believe that level of struggle with retention could even exist in an apparently bright child.

 

Frankly, in ALL math DD  needs lots and lots and lots of review or the connections, which are very weak, never solidify at all.  The one exception seems to be certain Geometry concepts.  Geometry clicks in her brain far better than other areas of math.  She needs a lot of review for the terms to mean something when she reads the words but the concepts click better.  For the rest?  Years, literally years, of review of basics alongside more advanced concepts is the only way she progresses.  This is one reason, despite all the built in review in CLE, I also run the Key to Series with DD for fractions and decimals and percents, she still does math fact practice even as she uses a math chart or skip counting or a calculator for learning new material, and we tackle things from different angles all the time.   She needs targeted, focused, continual review in areas of extreme struggle and frequently needs those things daily while we also move forward with new material.  Even a week off and boom, the information fades away.  Slowly, over years, things are sticking long term and don't need as much review thankfully.  DD has a lot of confidence in her abilities in math, now.  She just knows she is on a MUCH slower time table than an NT kid and she knows she needs a lot more review and a lot more TIME for things to stick.


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#75 stephensgirls

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Posted 16 November 2017 - 10:07 PM

Update:

 

I received my new MOTL last week. Went out of town with my dh last Friday through Monday to celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary. It was a wonderful getaway. :) Feeling refreshed, I decided to dig in to MOTL on Tues of this week. It was overwhelming at first, but I (((think))) I'm figuring it out. I set up a separate binder for the Review Chart and 5-a-day wide style record sheets. I also put the Concept Chart in there. We started working today on measurements. Turns out all that slime making pays off. She already knew so much about measuring volume. 8 ounces = 1 cup, 3 t = 1 T, etc. I feel like I can "drop" volume except to talk about it while we're in the kitchen together or grocery shopping. I'll come back to measuring length because I only had her measure to a half inch. I could tell she struggled with the idea of measuring to a quarter inch. 

 

I'm loosely following their suggested sequence. I'm still in the "finding the gaps" stage of all this. And there are many gaps!

 

Anyway, I'm very optimistic that MOTL is exactly what we need. I love having the framework given to me with the freedom to teach the concepts in a way that dd learns best. We can still continue with the R. Bird ebooks, too. 

 

Thanks, y'all!

 

ETA: Next up is creating a "visual" for helping with transitions and scheduling our school day--or at least the portion of our day dedicated to formal schooling as opposed to the rest of the day with is still all unschooling. Today's unschooling was sketching landscapes and trees and writing comedy sketches and acting them out with her older sister (bless DD16--she's an amazing big sister)--which is really just playing. ;) But if I call it unschooling then I don't feel so much guilt over not slaving over diagramming sentences and not teaching her Latin. lol


Edited by stephensgirls, 16 November 2017 - 10:30 PM.

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#76 exercise_guru

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 11:58 AM

Both of my kids each have two google calenders. One exclusive to school deadlines and reminder. I have found the calender reminders in Android to be lacking. I need a real alarm reminder so I installed an app called. "calendar event Reminder" it links to the alarm function and so I can set little ringtone alarms to remind me of anything I need to start or stop. I always have a nice alarm linked to my daughters calendar because I pick her up from activities at different times on different days so I just put an alarm on my phone using her calendar and it works great. She uses it on her phone. to remind her to finish or start a project in school so she knows to get off the computer and get to work. like if she needs to leave for an event she sets a reminder 30 minutes early so she can do her hair etc. This is my least organized child so this was a lifesaver for us. 

 

Here is the app and info from there little blurb on google play. 

https://play.google.....reminder&hl=en

"If you are tired of short "beep" reminders of calendar and often miss an important event, put and end to it with this app!

With this simple app you can override or replace default reminder with "unmissable" ones - they will ring like phone call how long you want, with melody you want! All you need is to install app - and that's all! No complex setup, no overcomplicated settings, just install app and that's it - app will "

 

Coming back to the math delima I will tell you a few tips that were passed on to me while tutoring in college. One tutor suggested using a whiteboard and wet erase. Have all the numbers in one color the symbols in another color and variables in another color. Kiddos who have a hard time thinking abstraction often think with colors There is a math genius that thinks of all math in colors that happen in his mind. Perhaps this will help your daughter. Sorry I don't have the link but I taught my very visual son to read using different colors for the sound groups and it clicked so it would probably work with math. 

 

Manipulatives are very helpful but expensive. Some kids have to touch things to understand. I use pennies and small dollar store soldier kits for areas and such.

Also and while a lot of people do hate Core and understandably so it does click with some students. Especially the number line drawings and area drawings. These translate to multiplication and for whatever reason help. 

 

I am sorry I may not be much help as I do not know a lot about dyscalculia but I know some kids are linear in other areas of their lives and some our visually spatial. If you can find areas that your child does well and observe HOW they are thinking about that area of their life perhaps it would open up some ideas for Math. I have used materials for visual spatial learners in math with great effect. I have also taught step by step math for linear thinkers. 

 


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#77 exercise_guru

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 12:03 PM

Also and this is just my opinion having tutored students from grate 1- to juniors in college. The math that is the most important is money math, everyday numbers , areas ,shapes and geometries distances these types of things. They are all that is used in accounting and most drafting.  For upper level math the algebra is mostly used in formulas to calculate one of these things so if you could somehow get your child to understand WHAT they are trying to figure out the HOW might be easier. 

The math that I took beyond basic algebra has not been used in my life beyond statistical analysis that I apply in my work field. I am an engineer so I use the stuff but really if your child could get to where they understand . how big a field is, how far a distance is and how much or how little money is these kind of real world math problems are the most important. If you teach at home that is where I would focus.

 

OH and about the calendars stuff. I also have to do lists with pictures on them and white boards . There is a great website where you can create picture lists for special needs children. I used to use this  all the time for my kiddos because they did not read their lists and I got tired of them forgetting small routine things. you might want to search for that because it would be a good resource. Sometimes as moms we get creative on how to try to solve some of this stuff and we do it anyway we can figure out. 


Edited by exercise_guru, 17 November 2017 - 12:05 PM.

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#78 stephensgirls

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 05:29 PM

Exercise-guru, thanks for your insight on the math. Do you know what the website is that has the pictures. I'm not sure I really need it, but I'd like to check it out. Thanks for the math tips. I've made a list of supplies I need to create my visual schedule. I'm going to get dd a small whiteboard, too. Making a trip to Staples after dinner.

 

I'm experimenting with a personal size visual schedule that I can customize with different assignments each day. She'll be able to close a flap over each task as we finish. 

 


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#79 stephensgirls

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 05:34 PM

Ok, adding on fingers. So are you generalizing RB Dots? You need to back up to the first lesson, like where you went can you see a 1, can you see 2, can you see a 1 inside the 2, etc., and you need to do that 15 ways. Get out brownies and look at clocks and go measure and count fleas on the dog and strew pens. All over, lots of ways. Till that concept is true in her brain EVERYWHERE, every time of day, no matter what.

 

So once you start building little math facts, like you're like oh 4 has a 2 and another 2 inside and 4 has a 3 and a 1 inside, well now it's time to do that fact more ways! So you stop for a week and you play board games and you cook and you make a Thanksgiving plan and you read thermometers and you make cookies and measure flour. And you do those two math facts SO MANY WAYS till her brain clicks that they'll be there (2+2 and 3+1) everywhere. And then you do the next lesson lots of ways till it generalizes.

 

So if it hasn't generalized, you aren't done with it in RB. For my ds it took a long time and was mind boggling. 

 

This week we worked on measuring lots of ways. We weighed things with a digital mass scale, with a traditional pan balance, with measuring tapes, with other units of measure (paper clips, unit cubes, etc.) Most of that was prompted by those worksheets I mentioned. They're good stuff! They catch holes my ds has. 

 

Do what you want, but it's not gonna be just store. It's going to be store AND accuweather AND poker AND board games AND... Ok, maybe not poker. I don't even know how to play. I've heard it's a game of skill, not chance, dunno. My ds just has so many functional gaps. He couldn't find a page in a book. Can your dd? It's a surprisingly hard thing!! He couldn't even begin to guess what weighed more, when given a list of things. So there's a lot of value to real life and hands-on explorations, yes.

 

Just wanted to update on this, too. The dot patterns do seem to be generalizing--thankfully! And we worked on measuring again today. She wanted to add a slime to her Etsy shop. She had to measure the shipping container and weigh the package to enter the info into the shipping calculator. I love your ideas for so much real life math. I'm sad to admit, I've missed a lot of opportunities thinking that math has to be taught with a text. :( I'm officially out of that mindset now. And I'm starting to look for those functional gaps. 


Edited by stephensgirls, 17 November 2017 - 06:28 PM.

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#80 stephensgirls

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Posted 17 November 2017 - 06:14 PM

DD struggles with all areas of issue: memorizing math facts, mental math, number sense and retaining anything long term.  Talk about a long, slow slog up a steep hill in a blizzard wearing cement galoshes. LOL

 

All of those things make this process much harder but the hardest may be how rapidly something seemingly learned would just disappear again.  It took a while for me to realize that just because, in that moment, DD seemed to be grasping something and doing well with it, that didn't mean that the next time we did it she would have any recall at all.  It was a very frustrating, demoralizing experience for both of us.  It felt like every time we seemed to make progress we would end up back at square one.  Not even square one, actually.  We would lost ground because DD would get so down that something she thought she knew was no longer available to her.  It was if the knowledge had been surgically removed from her brain.  Why keep trying if after tremendous effort and time spent, the information would simply be gone?  We did finally find ways that worked better and things are sticking.  We just have to do a LOT, I mean a LOT, of review of everything.  To keep her from being overwhelmed and not having to do 8-10 hours of math every day (she is usually overloaded after an hour), I had to get clever with built in review (thanks to Math on the Level I found a wonderful way to keep track and keep various concepts/algorithms woven into our day without overwhelming her).

 

Measuring to the quarter inch is an example of how things would just disappear.  Well, measuring of any kind would just not stick.  We worked for years to reach a point where measuring of any kind actually computed but even when it would click and she would do it correctly for a week or two, if we stopped reviewing, boom that information would be gone.  She would stare at the ruler or the measuring cup or the thermometer and have literally no idea how to measure.  Since I find measuring rather useful in daily life (certainly far more useful and needed than Algebra) we kept at it (short lessons alongside her normal math) but I realized that we had to incorporate it into our daily lives DAILY.  She now can measure to the quarter inch with a ruler even if she hasn't done it in a few weeks and does well with a measuring cup and mostly can read a thermometer fairly accurately.  She cannot measure to the eighth inch without some help but, hey, I'm happy we got to the quarter inch.  It just took daily short lessons over years for it to finally click and stick with any longevity. 

 

Unfortunately, most tutors/teachers are not going to understand that this level of constant review could possibly be needed or believe that level of struggle with retention could even exist in an apparently bright child.

 

Frankly, in ALL math DD  needs lots and lots and lots of review or the connections, which are very weak, never solidify at all.  The one exception seems to be certain Geometry concepts.  Geometry clicks in her brain far better than other areas of math.  She needs a lot of review for the terms to mean something when she reads the words but the concepts click better.  For the rest?  Years, literally years, of review of basics alongside more advanced concepts is the only way she progresses.  This is one reason, despite all the built in review in CLE, I also run the Key to Series with DD for fractions and decimals and percents, she still does math fact practice even as she uses a math chart or skip counting or a calculator for learning new material, and we tackle things from different angles all the time.   She needs targeted, focused, continual review in areas of extreme struggle and frequently needs those things daily while we also move forward with new material.  Even a week off and boom, the information fades away.  Slowly, over years, things are sticking long term and don't need as much review thankfully.  DD has a lot of confidence in her abilities in math, now.  She just knows she is on a MUCH slower time table than an NT kid and she knows she needs a lot more review and a lot more TIME for things to stick.

 

Thanks for sharing this. I catch myself thinking that MOTL is going to be some kind of silver bullet. And she's finally going to learn this stuff once and for all! But it's NOT going to be that way. I'm so concerned about getting the concepts to stick. The 5 a days in MOTL will help--especially since I'm able to customize it to her needs. The idea of having to teach things from different angles intimidates me a little. I've got my work cut out for me. But I am already seeing some things stick. Like the measuring. It's related to her special interest--I think that helps. 


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