Chem 101 (for non majors) for DE sr with no prior chemistry?

[Hilltopmom]

Trying to plan next semester for my senior.

 

Debating between Geology (with his current Env Sci prof who he likes) vs Chem 101for non science majors ( unknown prof, only a handful of reviews I can find).

 

He’s going to major in CS next fall & doesn’t have Chem in high school yet.

Some of his schools require a chem1-2 or physics 1-2 sequence freshman year, others require just two lab sciences of your choice.

 

If he takes Chem this spring it would just be for high school basically so that he’s familiar with it if he has to take the “for majors†version in college next year.

 

Not interested in doing it at home.

 

What says the hive? Thanks

[JudoMom]

Ds18 is going to be an engineering major.  Spring of his junior year I put him in College Chemistry.  He'd had no prior chemistry, and I knew he'd have to work hard, and it was indeed, hard (like asleep on his textbook at 1am hard).  But if he goes to his most likely school, he'll be done with chemistry (for that, he's glad).

Last week I tried to enroll ds17 in the same chem course for this spring.  They've changed the requirements and now students are required to have a year of high school chemistry or general chemistry.  I debated on what to do (this son has had some exposure) and I decided to go with General Chemistry.  Ds18 said College Chem was hard, and that his friends who found it easy had a year of high school chemistry.  

So, I'd say if your son's likely major requires College Chem, I'd do the General Chem so he gets that background.  

[Julie of KY]

I could make an argument either way.

 

Generally, I'm in the camp of let the student follow their passions in high school. This would mean geology for your son. This could lead him down some different paths in college electives if he finds he really likes this.

 

However, many students struggle with college chemistry for majors if they have no chemistry background. I think it would be very helpful to get some background in chemistry before tackling it in college.

[Hilltopmom]

Ok, my next question is:

 

Chem two nights a week 6-8:30 (lab included?)

Or

M W F plus another day for lab?

 

I’d usually always recommend the 4 day a week meeting but I went back to teaching this fall and getting kiddo to and from campus all winter 4 days a week is going to be a struggle. My parents who already watch my preschoolers will have to add that to their list and it seems too much to ask of them.

[GailV]

Chemistry underpins so many other things in science, I'd go with the chemistry. 

 

Also, it would be tough to come into a "for majors" chemistry in college having had no exposure.  One of dd's public school senior friends is in AP chem this year, having not had any exposure since about 7th grade -- very intelligent kid, absolutely going nuts trying to catch up. 

[Hilltopmom]

I think he’d like geology more (and he knows he likes the prof already and dh is a hydrogeologist so he’s got plenty of help if need be, lol) BUT-

I think college Chem would be really hard freshman year without any prior Chem.

Ugh, I wish he already knew where he was going next year.

[GailV]

Dd did Chem 101 in 2 days per week, including lab.  She though she'd die of boredom from having to sit through that many hours straight of chemistry.  But, she survived, it involved a lot less driving around, and she now has a baseline for "most boring class ever" -- when other kids complain about not liking a 50 minute class she tells them they have no idea.

[JudoMom]

I'd do whatever works for your schedule.  I'd view the 2 night a week class as an opportunity to learn how to manage that kind of class while he's still at home and has you to help (if he struggles with that sort of thing).  We haven't had the option of shorter classes more often, though.

Edited October 31, 2017 by JudoMom

[Hilltopmom]

Yeah it’s a lot of info to cram into 2 nights.

I know I’d drift off after an hour or so.

Not sure about him

[Lori D.]

Well, I'll be a rebel and say let DS have his "last hurrah" of taking something he'd really like to take and go for the Geology. :) Just my opinion, but I DO think it's important to include personal interests in your high school studies. I think that helps students develop a life-long lifestyle of keeping a balance of working hard towards college/career, but also making time to explore interests and hobbies.

 

He can always sign up for a more fundamental pre-requisite Chem at college in his first semester before taking the required Chem. Or, if he knows he'll be taking Chem next fall at college, he could spend this summer working his way through the Khan Academy videos to get some basic familiarity to make that class run more smoothly.

 

 

...He’s going to major in CS next fall & doesn’t have Chem in high school yet.
Some of his schools require a chem1-2 or physics 1-2 sequence freshman year, others require just two lab sciences of your choice.

 

Also, from what you're saying here, there is no guarantee that DS is even going to NEED the Chem. He might be able to go with the 2 lab sciences of choice and skip Chem. And even if the future college does require 2 semesters of Chem or Physics, DS can go with Physics and skip Chem. Another reason (to me ;) ) for not to stressing about doing Chem in high school.

 

 

BEST of luck, whatever your DS decides! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Lori D.

[Hilltopmom]

Agh, now I think I agree with Lori.

He really doesn’t want to take Chem....has a busy winter and spring planned with robotics and science fairs and has pushed hard this past year.

I don’t want to burn him out before he even graduates.

[Lori D.]

He really doesn’t want to take Chem....has a busy winter and spring planned with robotics and science fairs and has pushed hard this past year...

 

Robotics is closer to Physics than Chem, so once he gets to college, if he ends up *having* to do either Chem or Physics for a required science, why not Physics? ... And not wanting to take Chem is huge -- it's going to be a tough subject that requires a lot of time -- NOT the course to do as DE and having to keep up your grades, when you don't even want to take it. Again, JMO.

 

To me, all of this is definitely sounding more and more like Geology in the spring. ;)

[Hilltopmom]

yep :)

[MarkT]

Maybe a CC course for non-majors so he doesn't get burnt out.

If he has to take Chem in college then definitely get some prior exposure or it won't be pretty! 

 

(Not having to take Chem could be a valid reason to choose college X versus Y).

Most CS degrees do not require Chem.

 

Go with Physics!  Physics is Phun.

[GailV]

LOL, I just read one of dd's college application essays, and it's about how much she loathed Chem 101 and sitting there for hours.  It was pretty hilarious.  

 

Given that your ds won't need essay fodder by the time he takes the class, there's another strike against taking chemistry.

 

Just had to share due to the coincidence of all these Chem 101 conversations going on.

[Hilltopmom]

Lol Gail!

 

It hadn’t occurred to me that he should just take physics in college instead.

I was a Bio major so lots of Chem, it’s kinda inconceivable to me to just “never†take Chem

[Hilltopmom]

Really he doesn’t even need to take another lab science this spring.

[Lori D.]

Go with Physics!  Physics is Phun.

 

:thumbup1:

[MorningGlory]

I vote for geology.  :D

[Lori D.]

I vote for geology.  :D

 

And this from the Physics Queen!  :laugh:

 

 

Side note: Jetta, sure wish you had been offering Clover Creek Physics back when our DSs were in high school. They would have loved doing it with you! :)

[Hilltopmom]

We both loved Jetta’s class last year!

[kiana]

+1 for do what he enjoys. He'll have so many required classes in college and the federal financial aid rules are making it harder and harder for students to get a chance to throw on random classes just to see what they're about. 

[Julie of KY]

and the federal financial aid rules are making it harder and harder for students to get a chance to throw on random classes just to see what they're about. 

 

How so? I simply don't know what you are referring to.

[kiana]

How so? I simply don't know what you are referring to.

 

Only courses that are required for your degree program count towards enrollment for federal financial aid. It's intended to make sure that students are continuing to progress towards their degrees instead of just taking random stuff all the time to milk the financial aid system. And for students who are trying to do the minimum possible, it works fine. 

 

But for someone who's (for example) taken extra classes, used all their general electives, and is now in a semester where there are less than 12 credits that tick specific boxes on their degree progress, it means that they can't reach full-time enrollment. Some of our students who have always enrolled for 18 credits/semester are running into this issue and it's very frustrating in advising to be telling people that they shouldn't take ___ elective that they're interested in because they will need a degree-required class to be enrolled full-time for senior year when they're taking the 3 classes that they need to take as a senior.

 

Or, in tabular form:

Freshman -- tick 36 credits of boxes (possible at our school).

Sophomore -- 36 more.

Junior -- 36 more.

Senior -- now has 108 credits counted towards degree. Since many jr/sr classes are offered every other fall or every other spring, this student needs to be enrolled in both fall and spring in order to graduate, but there are not 24 credits of required classes left to take. 

 

There are also caps on how many credits you can accumulate before you can no longer receive aid. The caps are at least sufficiently generous that most students don't hit them, unless they change their major/degree focus a few times -- for example, someone who enters a 4-yr with an associate's of applied science in welding or something else which doesn't count as anything other than general electives but still transfers will often hit them. 

[fourisenough]

Only courses that are required for your degree program count towards enrollment for federal financial aid. It's intended to make sure that students are continuing to progress towards their degrees instead of just taking random stuff all the time to milk the financial aid system. And for students who are trying to do the minimum possible, it works fine.

 

But for someone who's (for example) taken extra classes, used all their general electives, and is now in a semester where there are less than 12 credits that tick specific boxes on their degree progress, it means that they can't reach full-time enrollment. Some of our students who have always enrolled for 18 credits/semester are running into this issue and it's very frustrating in advising to be telling people that they shouldn't take ___ elective that they're interested in because they will need a degree-required class to be enrolled full-time for senior year when they're taking the 3 classes that they need to take as a senior.

 

Or, in tabular form:

Freshman -- tick 36 credits of boxes (possible at our school).

Sophomore -- 36 more.

Junior -- 36 more.

Senior -- now has 108 credits counted towards degree. Since many jr/sr classes are offered every other fall or every other spring, this student needs to be enrolled in both fall and spring in order to graduate, but there are not 24 credits of required classes left to take.

 

There are also caps on how many credits you can accumulate before you can no longer receive aid. The caps are at least sufficiently generous that most students don't hit them, unless they change their major/degree focus a few times -- for example, someone who enters a 4-yr with an associate's of applied science in welding or something else which doesn't count as anything other than general electives but still transfers will often hit them.

Fascinating. Can you link to the rule change you’re referencing? Or somewhere I can learn more about the rules? My DD’s advisor just mentioned this to her and it was the first she/I had ever heard of it.

[kiana]

Fascinating. Can you link to the rule change you’re referencing? Or somewhere I can learn more about the rules? My DD’s advisor just mentioned this to her and it was the first she/I had ever heard of it.

 

Here's an FAQ that looks decent -- http://www.byui.edu/financial-aid/program-applicability/faq

[Hilltopmom]

+1 for do what he enjoys. He'll have so many required classes in college and the federal financial aid rules are making it harder and harder for students to get a chance to throw on random classes just to see what they're about.

Hmm, he’s also taking a couple humanities classes DE that will transfer to his programs with him.

I understand what you’re saying about fin aid & that’s concerning.

And he wants to add a minor & it looks like those classes don’t count toward “program†either.

 

— we need a new thread to discuss this one on the college board

Edited November 1, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[chiguirre]

Hmm, he’s also taking a couple humanities classes DE that will transfer to his programs with him.

I understand what you’re saying about fin aid & that’s concerning.

And he wants to add a minor & it looks like those classes don’t count toward “program†either.

 

— we need a new thread to discuss this one on the college board

 

The minor rules are terrible! And if a school only requires 108 credits instead of 120, students need to hold back and only take 12 credits some semesters or they'll hit the wall before they get all their major classes in. My geek heart bleeds for all these kids who won't be able to take any classes just for fun. That was the best part of college!

[kiana]

The minor rules are terrible! And if a school only requires 108 credits instead of 120, students need to hold back and only take 12 credits some semesters or they'll hit the wall before they get all their major classes in. My geek heart bleeds for all these kids who won't be able to take any classes just for fun. That was the best part of college!

 

One good reason to actually consider audit instead of for-credit. At least it's easy to explain on a grad school app -- "I was very interested in x, y, z, but to preserve financial aid eligibility chose to audit" -- this is what I have recommended to my "But I want to learn EVERYTHING" students. 

[G5052]

I'd investigate the professor.

 

My youngest LOVED chemistry in high school and wanted to take the non-major chemistry in college. Nope. One of the very worst professors at that school.

 

The non-major physics professor is one of the very best. So she's going that way.

[fourisenough]

Hmm, he’s also taking a couple humanities classes DE that will transfer to his programs with him.

I understand what you’re saying about fin aid & that’s concerning.

And he wants to add a minor & it looks like those classes don’t count toward “program†either.

 

— we need a new thread to discuss this one on the college board

I agree: need a new thread. This is going to create an issue for my DD.

[Bristayl]

I'm glad you clued me into this federal aid program applicability issue. I had never heard of it before. It's kind of frustrating that I can't seem to find info on the official federal aid website, but only on the websites of certain colleges. This is probably going to be an issue for us because dd has been accumulating a lot of college credits while in high school and may only have upper-level  major courses left that would be "applicable" if she attends a state university. I had thought she also could take other courses that were simply of interest, so as not to load up every semester with nothing but upper-level science classes.

[Hilltopmom]

Well, he wound up vetoing both lab sciences (which is fine, he already has 4) and taking a cyber security class.

 

I was a little twitchy about it because (we are full pay) i don’t think it will transfer into his program but it’s his area of interest going into computer science and he’s already taken all the programming classes offered at the CC.

I went with everyone’s recommendation to let him pick since it’s his last chance before college’s program decides his schedule.

 

He still needs to choose a Gen Ed elective since there’s space in his schedule.

 

Thanks all

[MarkT]

Well, he wound up vetoing both lab sciences (which is fine, he already has 4) and taking a cyber security class.

 

I was a little twitchy about it because (we are full pay) i don’t think it will transfer into his program but it’s his area of interest going into computer science and he’s already taken all the programming classes offered at the CC.

 

 Cyber security is a big growth area in CS these days and the least likely jobs to outsource to a foreign country.

Good choice!

 

He would want to take a newer course Junior or Senior year if he wanted to pursue this route.

[kiana]

May not transfer into his program but looks just fine on a resume :)