three4me Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Someone linked on Facebook a Cosmo article about non-Polynesian girls dressing up like Moana for Halloween, saying that doing so is racist and insensitive. Â Is this true?? What do you think? Â For the record, my daughter is going to dress up as Katherine Johnson. This is a person she has learned about and admires. Could this really be a problem?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherGoose Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Someone linked on Facebook a Cosmo article about non-Polynesian girls dressing up like Moana for Halloween, saying that doing so is racist and insensitive. Â Is this true?? What do you think? Â For the record, my daughter is going to dress up as Katherine Johnson. This is a person she has learned about and admires. Could this really be a problem?! I'm sorry but I don't think so. Is it racist if Polynesian girls dress up like Elsa? I think kids who are young enough to dress up like princesses are too young to think about the wider implications. And parents think. Okay, she loves whatever princess. Buy costume. Check. 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three4me Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 The article was saying specifically that white kids should not dress as minorities. So it wasn't about girls of other ethnicities dressing as Elsa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherGoose Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 The article was saying specifically that white kids should not dress as minorities. So it wasn't about girls of other ethnicities dressing as Elsa. Right, but I'm just saying that no one (I don't think) would claim that a Polynesian child is racist for dressing up like Elsa, who is white, (or substitute any combination of princesses and races...black girl dressed up as Pocahantas, for example--didn't Disney make her a princess too?) so people shouldn't, logically, claim that people are racist for letting their non-Polynesian child dress up as Moana. It has to work both ways for there to be any racism going on here. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sk8ermaiden Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) I have done a lot of listening to others on this subject, because I don't want to accidentally do something really offensive.  The vast, vast majority of what I am hearing is that kids should feel free to dress up as famous individuals or characters, as long as they don't do things like skin darkening, and that the characters themselves aren't racist (like Moana, ok, Speedy Gonzalez, not cool) Things like being "an Indian" or "a Mexican" are not OK, especially when the costumes for these rely on stereotypes. And there are always one or two people who do find a way to make absolutely everything you can think of offensive, but even in my circles that are full of politically correct social justice warriors, the above seems to be the common thought.  Edited October 24, 2017 by Sk8ermaiden 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 moana is a disney princess.   little girls just see disney princess. they want to be a disney princess, and her specifically because they like her.  do these same people object to little girls of color who want to be a disney princess dressing up like cinderella or snow white?  what about elsa or anna?     I saw the one where the ?teacher? was attacked for wearing "black face". actually - she looked like she was being the creature from the black lagoon (or the oil pit monster on stng) - nothing to do with race. (someone mentioned she needed purple contacts for the full impact.)  how do they feel about non Caucasian santas? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 The article was saying specifically that white kids should not dress as minorities. So it wasn't about girls of other ethnicities dressing as Elsa.  if white girls can't dress as other minorities - do you see any double standard if minorities can dress up as white girls?    I'm debating even wading into this - as I have homework for my self to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Racism is a one way street -- it absolutely never "goes both ways" -- it only works one way: from people who have greater power to people who have lesser power.  On the one hand, Moana may be an exception because she is a character, not a race... but she has a race, so I can see the issue. I'm not sure if she is an exception or not.  However, in general, this is his you identify whether a costume is offensive in terms of racism or cultural appropreation.  1. Name the two people groups involved. One is the simple visual identification of the character, the other is the simple visual identification of the person who intends to dress as that character.  2. Ask if either group does now, or ever has, asserted superiority over the other group.  A: if there is no people-group relationship that can be ready my identified, it's all good  B: If the real person is in the group who has/is asserting superiority that person may not appropriate the cultural look that they were thinking about. To do so is mimicking a culture that they have already actually injured for amusement purposes. It adds insult to injury.  C: if the real person is in the 'weaker' position of a current or historic relationship with the people that they intend to dress up as, that is ok because they aren't taking advantage of a group that they have already wounded.  Therefore apparently white children must have greater sensitivity, but apparently white characters are open to children of all ethnicities. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I have done a lot of listening to others on this subject, because I don't want to accidentally do something really offensive.  The vast, vast majority of what I am hearing is that kids should feel free to dress up as famous individuals or characters, as long as they don't do things like skin darkening, and that the characters themselves aren't racist (like Santa Anna, ok, Speedy Gonzalez, not cool) Things like being "an Indian" or "a Mexican" are not OK, especially when the costumes for these rely on stereotypes.  And there are always one or two people who do find a way to make absolutely everything you can think of offensive, but even in my circles that are full of politically correct social justice warriors, the above seems to be the common thought.   what about cowboys? those are pretty stereotypical.  and one of the most famous cowboys - was black. (little tiny guy too. I saw his saddle on the tour, it's tiny. looks like a child's. VERY good at what he did.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherGoose Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I have done a lot of listening to others on this subject, because I don't want to accidentally do something really offensive. Â The vast, vast majority of what I am hearing is that kids should feel free to dress up as famous individuals or characters, as long as they don't do things like skin darkening, and that the characters themselves aren't racist (like Moana, ok, Speedy Gonzalez, not cool) Things like being "an Indian" or "a Mexican" are not OK, especially when the costumes for these rely on stereotypes. Â And there are always one or two people who do find a way to make absolutely everything you can think of offensive, but even in my circles that are full of politically correct social justice warriors, the above seems to be the common thought. Â I understand what you are saying. I get that "black face" is not okay, or stereotypes. What if your sweet little white blond haired child just LOVES a princess with a dark complexion, and she knows that kids make crayon drawings with accurate skin colors, and she's super bothered that she won't be accurately dressed up as the princess in question if she doesn't darken her skin to match? mama has already bought her a wig of the appropriate hair so why can't she make her skin darker? She asks mama to get her some dark powder in the makeup section and is just as pleased as she can be by looking like her idol. Shouldn't people consider the intention behind the dressup? People do not put on "black face" out of love for anyone. I'm probably going to bed here soon, so I don't think I'll be engaging in this conversation again until the morning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sk8ermaiden Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) No, she doesn't just get to do something that's really offensive to an entire race just because her intentions are sweet and innocent. She may not know better, but her parents should. Blackface isn't even near the grey areas we're discussing here.  And cowboy isn't a race. :confused1:  It's an occupation. And cowboys have not traditionally been on the losing side of a power imbalance against? I don't even know who? That doesn't seem to fit in this discussion.  Edited October 24, 2017 by Sk8ermaiden 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I understand what you are saying. I get that "black face" is not okay, or stereotypes. What if your sweet little white blond haired child just LOVES a princess with a dark complexion, and she knows that kids make crayon drawings with accurate skin colors, and she's super bothered that she won't be accurately dressed up as the princess in question if she doesn't darken her skin to match? mama has already bought her a wig of the appropriate hair so why can't she make her skin darker? She asks mama to get her some dark powder in the makeup section and is just as pleased as she can be by looking like her idol. Shouldn't people consider the intention behind the dressup? People do not put on "black face" out of love for anyone. I'm probably going to bed here soon, so I don't think I'll be engaging in this conversation again until the morning.I think people very much do consider the intention behind a child's choice and loves, and also behind a parent's loving indulgence. I don't think anyone slams doors and shouts at pint sized princesses.  However, this information is intended to help adults recognize that there is a right time to stop indulging a child's childish whim to darken their skin... even if it makes the child sad, and even if the child obviously means no harm. We talk them around, we comfort them, we forget to buy it, or we just say no -- but we don't let kids walk out of the house disrespecting the culture of our neighbours.  It's exactly the same as the way we wouldn't let a child wear a t-shirt that they accidentally fabric painted a confederate flag on while they were just trying to make pretty patterns. It's the same as the way we don't let them say the 'name game' rhyme with "Chuck, chuck, no-buck..." even if they don't know what the gibberish means. It's the way we teach them not to use their middle fingers a certain way -- long before they would ever intentionally mean the gesture. You just stop them -- because it's not ok to let them do offensive things just because they don't yet understand why those things are offensive. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violet Crown Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 And cowboys have not traditionally been on the losing side of a power imbalance against? I don't even know who? Most recently, the Green Bay Packers. 37 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sk8ermaiden Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 When my oldest was 6 she was best friends with the little girl next door, whose family were Chinese immigrants. They decided together that they wanted to be Chinese princesses for Halloween, so I took my DD into San Francisco's Chinatown and bought her a Mandarin dress with slippers. I put her hair into pigtails but didn't have her wear a black wig or use any eyeliner to make her eyes look Asian or anything like that. Â The P.C. police can kiss my lily-white @$$ if they think I should've denied my daughter the chance to dress up like her best friend simply because our heritage is Irish rather than Chinese. Nobody would've thought twice if they had decided to be Irish step dancers and the little girl next door had worn a traditional Irish costume. 30 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three4me Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) So is DD's vintage dress, NASA badge, and a black wig a bad idea? The badge has Katherine Johnson's name and photo. Edited October 24, 2017 by three4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corraleno Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Racism is a one way street -- it absolutely never "goes both ways" -- it only works one way: from people who have greater power to people who have lesser power.  On the one hand, Moana may be an exception because she is a character, not a race... but she has a race, so I can see the issue. I'm not sure if she is an exception or not.  However, in general, this is his you identify whether a costume is offensive in terms of racism or cultural appropreation.  1. Name the two people groups involved. One is the simple visual identification of the character, the other is the simple visual identification of the person who intends to dress as that character.  2. Ask if either group does now, or ever has, asserted superiority over the other group.  A: if there is no people-group relationship that can be ready my identified, it's all good  B: If the real person is in the group who has/is asserting superiority that person may not appropriate the cultural look that they were thinking about. To do so is mimicking a culture that they have already actually injured for amusement purposes. It adds insult to injury.  C: if the real person is in the 'weaker' position of a current or historic relationship with the people that they intend to dress up as, that is ok because they aren't taking advantage of a group that they have already wounded.  Therefore apparently white children must have greater sensitivity, but apparently white characters are open to children of all ethnicities.  I totally disagree with this. According to this logic it would perfectly fine for an Asian kid to dress as a generic "Mexican" or a black kid to dress as a Japanese Geisha. Nope.  I agree with what Sk8ermaiden said up thread: a recognizable character costume like Moana or Lilo would be ok (but no "brown face"!), but not generic cultural stereotypes. The one "recognizable character" costume I might have a problem with is Pocahontas, because I think that one gets a little too close to "sexy Indian" costumes. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMS83 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 My solution to this is to not read Facebook or Cosmo. ;) But I'm sorry; I can't feel strongly about this though, because all I want to do on Halloween is hide in my house and eat candy, and leave the mouth-foaming, whether political or religious, to others. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I totally disagree with this. According to this logic it would perfectly fine for an Asian kid to dress as a generic "Mexican" or a black kid to dress as a Japanese Geisha. Nope. Â I agree with what Sk8ermaiden said up thread: a recognizable character costume like Moana or Lilo would be ok (but no "brown face"!), but not generic cultural stereotypes. The one "recognizable character" costume I might have a problem with is Pocahontas, because I think that one gets a little too close to "sexy Indian" costumes. I think you have a good point there. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 If a non white girl wanted to dress up as Cinderella, I would not call it racist. We are not assigned our princesses by race. The mere fact that a child would want to dress up as someone not their own race shows that the child is not concerned with race, which is a good thing. If people want to break the race barriers, they need to stop telling kids they can only play pretend of their own race. My daughter has dolls of all races. And she loves Tiana and has a tiana costume. And this is OK. 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Yeah, I disagree with the article. Moana is fine. Moana is not "mocking someone else's culture" or "reducing it to a stereotype". I think it's awesome that little girls want to be Moana. All types of girls. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) Honestly, I doubt anyone who is Polynesian has an issue with this. This is just a stupid issue someone who is bored is trying to pick. Articles like this are why we have too many snowflakes in the world right now. Edited October 24, 2017 by Janeway 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) So is DD's vintage dress, NASA badge, and a black wig a bad idea? The badge has Katherine Johnson's name and photo.  I think it's awesome. I think a black wig is one thing, blackface is another.  Adding, I can't imagine a better role model for a young girl. Edited October 24, 2017 by goldberry 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three4me Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 Honestly, I doubt anyone who is Polynesian has an issue with this. This is just a stupid issue someone who is bored is trying to pick. Articles like this are why we have too many snowflakes in the world right now. I totally agree! But I'd really like some opinions on DD's particular costume for this year. Is it offensive for her to dress as Katherine Johnson? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie Smith Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) I was thinking of something else when I read race.  On Monday the 30th the local running club is having the yearly Halloween run. They will have some goodies, and prizes for the best costume. Due to the fact the running happens in the dark Eldest is wearing a very bright costume. He is going as a Christmas tree and he has LED christmas lights to wear.  I was going to add in on costumes and running races.   Edited October 24, 2017 by Julie Smith 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I totally agree! But I'd really like some opinions on DD's particular costume for this year. Is it offensive for her to dress as Katherine Johnson? There is no problem dressing up as her. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sk8ermaiden Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjand6more Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 My 4 year old son desperately wants to be Maui from Moana. I decided it would be ok as long as we didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t try to darken his skin. Well, then I read online about the tattoos and how that also is cultural appropriation. Ugh. So I told 4 year old no. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s just not worth it. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s exhausting. I tried to explain it to him and I even got help from my oldest ds who is a senior anth major. He still doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t understand. He said, but I love him, I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t hate his people... Completely exhausting. He would have made the cutest little giant. Oh, well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 My 4 year old son desperately wants to be Maui from Moana. I decided it would be ok as long as we didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t try to darken his skin. Well, then I read online about the tattoos and how that also is cultural appropriation. Ugh. So I told 4 year old no. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s just not worth it. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s exhausting. I tried to explain it to him and I even got help from my oldest ds who is a senior anth major. He still doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t understand. He said, but I love him, I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t hate his people... Completely exhausting. He would have made the cutest little giant. Oh, well. Try telling him that the tattoos have meaning -- like badges from swimming lessons, or scouting, or trophies from soccer (or anything that is familiar to him). He might be able to understand that he can't wear them because he hasn't had the cultural experiences that 'earn' them and make them real. They aren't his, the same way his scouting badges don't belong to his friends. We respect the meaning of the tattoos by not wearing them as a costume, because 'for fun' isn't as important as their real meaning. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Yeah, I disagree with the article. Moana is fine. Moana is not "mocking someone else's culture" or "reducing it to a stereotype". I think it's awesome that little girls want to be Moana. All types of girls.  Well, sorta. Moana is set in a weird mish-mash of various Polynesian cultures with a hefty dose of modern sensibilities. Also, the character of Maui is not quite true to the culture-hero Maui, apparently.  But Disney tried this time, and evidently they got help from actual Polynesians, and most articles I've read on the subject come with "This is slightly problematic, but", as in but, the majority of interviewed Polynesians feel the good outweighs the bad.  So I'm okay with it.  (And I liked the songs.)  He said, but I love him, I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t hate his people...  Where did hate come into it? Where did he get the idea that hate had anything to do with this at all? It seems a strange idea for a four year old to pick up out of nowhere, so I'd start there. The fact that it's inappropriate has nothing to do with hatred.  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37430268  3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in FL. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 No. Just, no.  Racism is a one way street -- it absolutely never "goes both ways" -- it only works one way: from people who have greater power to people who have lesser power.  On the one hand, Moana may be an exception because she is a character, not a race... but she has a race, so I can see the issue. I'm not sure if she is an exception or not.  However, in general, this is his you identify whether a costume is offensive in terms of racism or cultural appropreation.  1. Name the two people groups involved. One is the simple visual identification of the character, the other is the simple visual identification of the person who intends to dress as that character.  2. Ask if either group does now, or ever has, asserted superiority over the other group.  A: if there is no people-group relationship that can be ready my identified, it's all good  B: If the real person is in the group who has/is asserting superiority that person may not appropriate the cultural look that they were thinking about. To do so is mimicking a culture that they have already actually injured for amusement purposes. It adds insult to injury.  C: if the real person is in the 'weaker' position of a current or historic relationship with the people that they intend to dress up as, that is ok because they aren't taking advantage of a group that they have already wounded.  Therefore apparently white children must have greater sensitivity, but apparently white characters are open to children of all ethnicities. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjand6more Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Having trouble quoting. IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m on my phone.  Re: hate. ThatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s what he got from our hour long talk about being respectful. He just is not old enough to understand what all of it means. Including hate, he knows that hate is the strongest emotion that we talk about. Respect is difficult for him to understand.  Thanks for the comments. Now that we have an expert of sorts in our family, we have learned a lot.lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in FL. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 This is all so utterly ridiculous. Why donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t we just separate into our different ethnicities and not interact lest we somehow offend one another. No, actually, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s just we white folks that have to worry about being offensive. I swear the world has gone insane with everyone looking for reasons to be offended at the drop of a hat. 29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicJen Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I guess I sort of feel like it's more racist to tell a little white girl who wants to be Moana, no you can't be that princess because she's Polynesian, than it would be just to let her be whichever princess she wants and not see the race. It feels like it's teaching the child to think of people by their race or ethnicity and personally I've always taught my kids that people are all the same and have different skin colors just like people have different eye or hair color. I wouldn't teach my kids to discriminate in that way. 21 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) This is all so utterly ridiculous. Why donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t we just separate into our different ethnicities and not interact lest we somehow offend one another. No, actually, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s just we white folks that have to worry about being offensive. I swear the world has gone insane with everyone looking for reasons to be offended at the drop of a hat.I'm pretty sure it was more insane when people were busy owning each other, committing genocide, kidnapping and incarcerating children, claiming land by violence, and supporting the clear eugenic supeiority of the white race. "Those people" are clearly just looking for reasons to be offended? Should "they" just be good enough to forget the past grand injustices, ignore the present everyday injustices, and convincingly pretend that they feel nothing when white parents fail to see any reason to discourage their children from making fun-times out of their non-white appearance and caricatured culture? Edited October 24, 2017 by bolt. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) I am so disgusted and saddened by the idea that any child should not dress up as a Disney character because he or she is the wrong race. If this is the way a majority of people feel, we will never have racial reconciliation in the US.  Edited to correct an error.    Edited October 24, 2017 by marbel 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I am so disgusted and saddened by the idea that any child should not dress up as a Disney character because he or she is the wrong race. If this is the way a majority of people feel, we will never have racial reconciliation in this country.Which country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammfried Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I totally agree! But I'd really like some opinions on DD's particular costume for this year. Is it offensive for her to dress as Katherine Johnson? Please do not forget her glasses! They are a signature of KatherineĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s look. Extra points if they are 50s style. And because she did mathematical calculations by hand, please also do not forget #2 pencils and stacks of paper with the trajectories and calculations of orbital flight path.  I think itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s wonderful for your DD to dress up as Katherine Johnson (I am biased though because I did research on women in STEM fields). The only thing I would carefully consider with thought would be the selection of the wig. Some African American women do find it offensive when their hair is imitated through stereotypes like Ă¢â‚¬Å“AfrosĂ¢â‚¬ or dreadlocks, so please choose carefully. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) Which country? Â US, and I edited my post. Edited October 24, 2017 by marbel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three4me Posted October 24, 2017 Author Share Posted October 24, 2017 Please do not forget her glasses! They are a signature of KatherineĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s look. Extra points if they are 50s style. And because she did mathematical calculations by hand, please also do not forget #2 pencils and stacks of paper with the trajectories and calculations of orbital flight path.  I think itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s wonderful for your DD to dress up as Katherine Johnson (I am biased though because I did research on women in STEM fields). The only thing I would carefully consider with thought would be the selection of the wig. Some African American women do find it offensive when their hair is imitated through stereotypes like Ă¢â‚¬Å“AfrosĂ¢â‚¬ or dreadlocks, so please choose carefully. Yes, she'll have glasses!! I just forgot since w don't have them yet. The wig I bought her is this one...  MapofBeauty 14"/35cm Charm Synthetic Curly Hair Wig (Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C2077GG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_SEQ7zbBZ81FZA  It doesn't really look like the product images, but if you look at photos from the reviews you'll get a better idea of what it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy in FL. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) I didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t do any of those things, and neither have my grandchildren. IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m not going to hold them accountable for it or raise them to believe that they have something to atone for because they are white and they better tread really lightly because of that shame. Yes, people are clearly looking for reasons to be offended these days. Everyone, excepting white folks, has the right to be constantly offended. If my white granddaughter wants to dress up as Moana, or any other character, because she finds that Ă¢â‚¬Å“personĂ¢â‚¬ to be someone worth celebrating/imitating/emulating, I really donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t see how that can reasonably be considered offensive. (Black face and the like would be offensive.)  You know what? IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad that my granddaughters donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think the color of skin matters and that they could be Moana as certainly as an African American girl could be Elsa.  I'm pretty sure it was more insane when people were busy owning each other, committing genocide, kidnapping and incarcerating children, claiming land by violence, and supporting the clear eugenic supeiority of the white race.  "Those people" are clearly just looking for reasons to be offended? Should "they" just be good enough to forget the past grand injustices, ignore the present everyday injustices, and convincingly pretend that they feel nothing when white parents fail to see any reason to discourage their children from making fun-times out of their non-white appearance and caricatured culture? Edited October 24, 2017 by Cindy in FL. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I'm pretty sure it was more insane when people were busy owning each other, committing genocide, kidnapping and incarcerating children, claiming land by violence, and supporting the clear eugenic supeiority of the white race. Â This happened to white people too, honey. But you don't hear Irish folks getting their panties in a bunch because of stupid caricatures like the Lucky Charms leprechaun... 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Or all the anti-Catholic caricatures like "slutty nun" Halloween costumes. We put our big girl pants on and ignore them. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammfried Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Yes, she'll have glasses!! I just forgot since w don't have them yet. The wig I bought her is this one...  MapofBeauty 14"/35cm Charm Synthetic Curly Hair Wig (Black) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C2077GG/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_SEQ7zbBZ81FZA  It doesn't really look like the product images, but if you look at photos from the reviews you'll get a better idea of what it looks like. The wig looks fine. Feel free to style it by pin tucking the length up accordingly since KatherineĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s true hair is usually styled shorter. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I like this article about dressing up as Moana. https://thespinoff.co.nz/parenting/01-02-2017/how-to-dress-your-pakeha-child-up-as-maui-or-moana-without-appropriating-pasifika-culture/ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 I didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t do any of those things, and neither have my grandchildren. IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m not going to hold them accountable for it or raise them to believe that they have something to atone for because they are white and they better tread really lightly because of that shame. Yes, people are clearly looking for reasons to be offended these days. Everyone, excepting white folks, has the right to be constantly offended. If my white granddaughter wants to dress up as Moana, or any other character, because she finds that Ă¢â‚¬Å“personĂ¢â‚¬ to be someone worth celebrating/imitating/emulating, I really donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t see how that can reasonably be considered offensive. (Black face and the like would be offensive.)  You know what? IĂ¢â‚¬â„¢m glad that my granddaughters donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t think the color of skin matters and that they could be Moana as certainly as an African American girl could be Elsa.   There is a difference between treading lightly out of shame and treading lightly out of kindness. When kids dress as a known and distinct character (1) with no attempt to imitate skin colour or racial features (2) when the character is positive and reasonably realistic, and (3) provided that no deep cultural symbols are involved -- I think that can be just fine. I do think that that *specific* sort of character is an exception to the general rule about dressing 'as a race or culture'. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) This thread makes me sad.  There are at least 3 different meanings of racism, two in this thread.  The most common usage of racism is a synonym for personal bigotry. Any person of any race can be a bigot.  The kind of racism that bolt is talking about is systemic. It has historical roots and present repercussions. It has to do with the majority group in power, whether it is the whites in the US or Hutus in Rwanda. It's a power differential thing.  Almost everyone else is using the other definition.  I really wish there were different words for each type but it is what it is; however, the two different definitions are often the source of misunderstanding and people talking past each other. .  Whether or not I or my kids have ever done a bigoted thing is not the issue. Feeling shame as a white person is not the desired outcome . it is important to realize that I have benefited by the things my ancestors/my social group did and I still benefit to this day. My finances are affected not only by my hard work and the hard work of my parents but by where my parents could get mortgages that the parents of today's people of color could not. (Google redlining if you're interested in the details. It was actively done in my lifetime.) The majority culture is my culture. My cultural preferences are considered the norm. I don't have to study another culture and consciously adjust my norms to fit theirs on a daily basis. I don't even have to be aware of my own white culture. I can just think of it as "normal."  Other groups have been disadvantaged over what was done to their ancestors and are still disadvantaged. Minority cultures in any society have to adjust to the standards of the majority. They are very aware of cultural differences because they are always adjusting.  So if my people group did real damage to another people group, I really don't think it's a whole lot to ask to adjust a child's Halloween costume if it causes pain to the people who were harmed. I am not expressing shame by this. I am expressing compassion, sorrow for what they went through, and a desire for a better future together. Edited October 24, 2017 by Laurie4b 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 It's a Disney princess who is a fantasy character with special powers which never existed. Who cares what her skin color is ....  The first time my kid told me she wanted to be Ginny Weasley, I wondered what to say. (My kids look more like Pocahontas or Dora the Explorer.) I asked other international adoptive parents, and they said "get her a Ginny Weasley costume." So I did. Big whoop. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixpix5 Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 So what is slightly concerning about our societal jump to being touchy about anything that could possibly be squeezed into the cultural appropriation lens if you squint enough is how this is actually going to ultimately hurt minorities further. Disney among other corporations is in it for the money. They made a TON money from Frozen costumes and merchandise. If we are boxing certain kids out of being able to wear said costumes then Disney will do the financially responsible decision and keep all main characters white. This breaks my heart. My daughter and I love Moana. Hands down my favorite Disney move to date. I cry buckets at the end each time I see it. It could have and should have done every bit as well as Frozen but right out of the gate Disney came under fire for Maui's costume. Then it was Moana's. There are a lot of little Caucasian children that keep Disney's bank rolls hefty. If it becomes too hard for Disney then minority representation with continue to be back burnered as side kicks and bit parts. As someone who raised a Mexican son through the 90s and early 2000s I couldn't find many characters that looked like him. This only hurts the most vulnerable in the long run. Â I do remember in the 90s though many of us running around in Princess Jasmine harem attire. Nobody cared. I am surprised Disney hasn't come under recent attack for their Jasmine and Aladdin costumes. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 (edited) An adult or older child dressing up like a person of another race, I could see maybe evaluating the costume for possible racist undertones. But a little girl wanting to be a Disney Princess? No, I don't see telling my 5yo "honey you can't be Tiana because she's black and that would be racist."  Besides the fact that a Disney princess is NOT part of a foreign culture, ...  Telling our kids that white people can only wear white costumes seems like a huge step backward. Especially when it's expected that children of color may wear white costumes. I think kids will interpret this as "white is OK for everyone, but other color masks are not good enough for white children." Kids choose costumes based on characters they admire; so it's not OK to admire people of color if you're white?  So now is it wrong for my kids to have a black Barbie doll or a Chinese baby doll too? What message is it going to send if white kids are only allowed to play "white hero" fantasies? Feels like going back 100 years. Edited October 24, 2017 by SKL 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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