S/O What to do about cults

[ElizabethB]

It seems to me that the main problem with the girls who are not getting an education in certain regions is that they are being controlled by a cult, not a homeschool specific problem.

I read a bunch of cult articles and most mentioned that once people get in, if you directly bash the cult that just drives them deeper in.

What do we as a society do about cults? What is the best way to prevent people from joining and how to draw them out if they are in?

How do we balance true religious freedom with whatever measures we have against cults?

 

ETA: The specific cult I am talking about is ATI/Gothard where they don't allow girls to get an education.  But, if you read a few articles about signs of a cult and how to get someone out of a cult, they all are alike and based on the same "business model," I thought it would also be helpful to discuss how to promote awareness of how cults work.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by ElizabethB

[MercyA]

Uh oh. Here we go. ðŸ’£

 

Interesting question, though, Elizabeth!

[Catwoman]

Do you have any specific cults in mind? Are they secular or are you talking about very strict churches whose beliefs differ from yours?

[Crimson Wife]

What would help is if they stopped getting a platform to promote their cults. Looking at you TLC (or whichever station puts the Duggars and other ATI families on the air) and homeschool conventions that prominently feature ATI-linked speakers.

[OrganicJen]

I guess part of it would depend on where you feel the line between cult and religion should be drawn, there are varying opinions on this.

[Catwoman]

Uh oh. Here we go. 💣

 

Interesting question, though, Elizabeth!

I was thinking the same thing! :laugh:

 

I'm hoping Elizabeth will clarify her post a bit, because I can imagine this thread turning very ugly, very quickly, and I'm sure that's not her intention.

[Jean in Newcastle]

She's talking about ATI/Gothard as a spin off of the minimum standards thread. 

 

My state requires yearly standardized testing for both genders.  I do not personally know any ATI members but they are easily identified by their hair and clothing.  They obey the law and I  see the ATI children of both genders at the yearly standardized testing sites.  Of course I don't know what their scores are.  What I'm saying in a roundabout way, is that having some homeschool oversight will help some of the more extreme problems.  But that varies by state. 

[ElizabethB]

Do you have any specific cults in mind? Are they secular or are you talking about very strict churches whose beliefs differ from yours?

I am against all cults that are a true cult! The articles I read, they all seemed to follow a common pattern. But, there is not much you can do about adults, legally and morally, but when kids become involved and there is some kind of abuse going on, that is when I personally think there should be something done.

 

But, I also wonder if more people were aware of how cults work and how they draw you in, if people would be less likely to join a cult.

[Catwoman]

She's talking about ATI/Gothard as a spin off of the minimum standards thread.

 

My state requires yearly standardized testing for both genders. I do not personally know any ATI members but they are easily identified by their hair and clothing. They obey the law and I see the ATI children of both genders at the yearly standardized testing sites. Of course I don't know what their scores are. What I'm saying in a roundabout way, is that having some homeschool oversight will help some of the more extreme problems. But that varies by state.

Thanks, Jean -- I haven't read that thread yet, so I had no clue. :)

 

Elizabeth -- you might want to change your thread title and your OP to say this thread is a spinoff of the other thread.

[Catwoman]

I am against all cults that are a true cult! The articles I read, they all seemed to follow a common pattern. But, there is not much you can do about adults, legally and morally, but when kids become involved and there is some kind of abuse going on, that is when I personally think there should be something done.

 

But, I also wonder if more people were aware of how cults work and how they draw you in, if people would be less likely to join a cult.

I really think you need to be more specific. Can you name one or two of these "true cults?" I'd like to participate in this thread but I honestly don't know what you're talking about. It would be helpful if you would clarify a bit more, so we're all discussing the same thing.

 

If, as Jean suggested, you're talking about ATI/Gothard, you should just come right out and say it.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Catwoman

[snowbeltmom]

I am against all cults that are a true cult! The articles I read, they all seemed to follow a common pattern. But, there is not much you can do about adults, legally and morally, but when kids become involved and there is some kind of abuse going on, that is when I personally think there should be something done.

 

But, I also wonder if more people were aware of how cults work and how they draw you in, if people would be less likely to join a cult.

 

I don't think you can draw a line.  One's person's cult is another person's religion.

 

[OrganicJen]

I really think you need to be more specific. Can you name one or two of these "true cults," because I'd like to participate in this thread but I honestly don't know what you're talking about.

 

If, as Jean suggested, you're talking about ATI/Gothard, you should just come right out and say it.

Yes please clarify as most people have different beliefs about what even constitutes a cult. It's difficult to discuss if everyone is thinking of something different.

[HS Mom in NC]

For the purpose of this discussion would it be useful to define a cult as a group that advocated and practiced violating the laws about compulsory education and child abuse?

[Crimson Wife]

True churches seek to strengthen family relationships, even relationships with non-member relatives. The Bible is pretty clear about that.

 

Cults seek to isolate their members as a way of controlling them.

[Catwoman]

Yes please clarify as most people have different beliefs about what even constitutes a cult. It's difficult to discuss if everyone is thinking of something different.

Yes, if you and I are thinking of the Moonies and Elizabeth is thinking of "the Catholics," those are two entirely different conversations! :laugh:

[Lecka]

The church my ILs attended when my husband was in middle school and high school had many, many, many traits of a cult.  But I don't think the whole denomination was this way.  This one specific church had a pastor who led the church in a cult-like direction for about 10 years.  This same church has had the name changed and has a different pastor, and I don't think it is that way anymore. 

 

One problem was that criticism would be interpreted as "we are being tested" and members would be told that this was a test of their faith, so they wouldn't consider the criticism.  Also the idea that if you are doing good things you are going to be criticized by "the world." 

 

Well -- there were some pretty bad things being done (specifically sexual abuse of girls my husband's age) but this was re-cast as something satan was doing to try to destroy something that satan saw was actually really good. 

 

Well ------ okay.  It all makes sense if you look at it that way.

 

But from the outside it just looks like circling the wagons around a sex abuse case. 

 

The thing is that as far as the doctrine of this church -- the problem isn't really with the doctrine.  The problem was with the pastor and then whatever the pastor says goes, you aren't allowed to disagree with the pastor or you are "sowing dissension."  Which again -- it sounds good but in this situation it wasn't so good. 

 

My understanding is that that pastor retired, and the new pastor just didn't do things the same way, and now the church is similar to other churches of the same kind, that nobody would think were like a cult. 

 

Edit:  We watch documentaries about Scientology, and when there is some strong similarity between Scientology and what was going on in my husband's church, and it is abnormal and bizarre to me based on churches I have been a part of, then we think it is cult-like.  That is what we are going off of. 

 

Specifically it is things like -- threatening to kick people out, shunning people who aren't members, different levels of membership (they held separate Sunday School classes for children from public school, to let the kids who weren't in public school not have to be exposed to those kids ---- this may have only been for high school), lots of financial requirements.... those are main ones off the top of my head. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Lecka

[regentrude]

I am against all cults that are a true cult! The articles I read, they all seemed to follow a common pattern. But, there is not much you can do about adults, legally and morally, but when kids become involved and there is some kind of abuse going on, that is when I personally think there should be something done.

 

But, I also wonder if more people were aware of how cults work and how they draw you in, if people would be less likely to join a cult.

 

I do not think so. Cult serve a very deep need some people have. They satisfy the need for belonging and structure. People who fall victim to cults are often troubled. I am not sure that knowing the warning signs will prevent them from doing the thing that fulfills their emotional needs at that moment.

 

I am more concerned about children born into a cult who have no choice. 

 

As log as a cult obeys all laws, there is probably nothing anybody can do.  I would, however like to see that behavior against the law is prosecuted to the full extent. Nobody should be allowed to excuse physical and sexual abuse by claiming religion. 

 

ETA: For example, if the law says the age of consent to sexual activity is 16, there should be no exception for members of any kind of organization. Perpetrators of statutory rape should be prosecuted, not allowed to marry their victims.

Edited October 23, 2017 by regentrude

[OrganicJen]

True churches seek to strengthen family relationships, even relationships with non-member relatives. The Bible is pretty clear about that.

 

Cults seek to isolate their members as a way of controlling them.

I definitely don't agree, that's why it would be nice if the OP was specific.

[OrganicJen]

I do not think so. Cult serve a very deep need some people have. They satisfy the need for belonging and structure. People who fall victim to cults are often troubled. I am not sure that knowing the warning signs will prevent them from doing the thing that fulfills their emotional needs at that moment.

 

I am more concerned about children born into a cult who have no choice.

 

As log as a cult obeys all laws, there is probably nothing anybody can do. I would, however like to see that behavior against the law is prosecuted to the full extent. Nobody should be allowed to excuse physical and sexual abuse by claiming religion.

 

ETA: For example, if the law says the age of consent to sexual activity is 16, there should be no exception for members of any kind of organization. Perpetrators of statutory rape should be prosecuted, not allowed to marry their victims.

I agree that as long as they are obeying the laws then there probably isn't much that can be done. If there is evidence that they aren't obeying the laws then reporting that to the proper authorities woukd make sense. Beyond that I really don't know of a solution beyond education.

[ElizabethB]

For the purpose of this discussion would it be useful to define a cult as a group that advocated and practiced violating the laws about compulsory education and child abuse?

 

I can go with that!  (I'm out of likes, BTW, people, consider your posts all liked!!)

[Catwoman]

For the purpose of this discussion would it be useful to define a cult as a group that advocated and practiced violating the laws about compulsory education and child abuse?

Not really.

 

I think we need to know which cult or cults she is thinking of, because "cult" is a loaded word and it would be nice to know if she's talking about specific religious organizations or something else.

[Catwoman]

I can go with that! (I'm out of likes, BTW, people, consider your posts all liked!!)

I can't. :)

 

Your OP seems like you are adamently against cults, so you must have a specific group or groups in mind.

 

I'm not sure why you don't simply come right out and tell us what you're talking about so we can discuss it without trying to guess what you mean.

 

 

(Edited for typo!)

Edited October 23, 2017 by Catwoman

[ElizabethB]

What would help is if they stopped getting a platform to promote their cults. Looking at you TLC (or whichever station puts the Duggars and other ATI families on the air) and homeschool conventions that prominently feature ATI-linked speakers.

 

Is there some master cult list somewhere?  Would it help to get them on a list? 

 

Maybe that is one thing we as homeschoolers could do, e-mail our local conventions and tell them that we will boycott if they allow any cults and then include a list of cults.

[Lecka]

My husband's church would fit that, actually.  The church school was allowed to paddled the students all the time, my husband was paddled all the time, and one of the problems with public school was that they didn't allow corporal punishment.  That was the attitude.  Now my husband wouldn't agree that this was child abuse.  I am allowed my opinion.

 

The sex abuse that happened at the church school was not advocated but it occurred. 

 

This church wasn't actually pro-homeschooling, youth were supposed to attend the church school.  So when my ILs moved away for 2 years they didn't want to put my little BIL into anything except that church school, and they put him back in it when they moved back.  He had gone to public school when he was young, and a few things happened at the same time when he started at the church school.... partly he wasn't doing well at public school, partly it was when they were getting  more serious at this church. 

 

My husband ended up attending a regular Christian school for his Junior and Senior year, which was so good for him, but he was very humiliated by how behind he was, he thought he was on a 7th grade level for that school.  They let him graduate on time by letting him do some correspondence class type things, but he didn't catch up in all his classes.   (He was expelled from the church school, he was one of the people they expelled to set an example for everybody else.) 

 

Edit:  From my understanding, as I have said, this church is not this way anymore, and doesn't run the school anymore, either. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Lecka

[ElizabethB]

I can't. :)

 

Your OP seemed like you were adamently against cults, so you must have a specific group or groups in mind.

 

I'm not sure why you don't simply come right out and tell us what you're talking about so we can discuss it without trying to guess what you mean.

 

When I was reading last night, I found hundreds of cult examples and they all used the same model.  For example, here is an article against something I have never heard of:

 

https://michaelbluejay.com/x/how-cults-recruit.html

[OrganicJen]

Is there some master cult list somewhere? Would it help to get them on a list?

 

Maybe that is one thing we as homeschoolers could do, e-mail our local conventions and tell them that we will boycott if they allow any cults and then include a list of cults.

Well, wouldn't that require a clear definition of what a cult is and how it objectively differs from a religion? It seems like without specifying which cult the OP is interested in discussing, this is nothing more than pot stirring.

[Lecka]

Yes, we have seen that from the Scientology videos, and my husband thinks the church was that way.  Very, very, very friendly at first, and then by the time you are coming several nights a week and spending Saturdays doing church events and your kids are enrolled in the school, you start to see a different side (or as my husband would say -- how they really are). 

 

I should go.... it is not the best thing for me to dwell on.

 

Also though ---- my ILs now find other churches to be "not as caring" as this church.  They will go somewhere for a month and not be satisfied, and it is like ----- they liked the way that church was.  They really liked it, and other churches don't seem as nice to them now.  My husband also says they were never as involved in any previous church when he was growing up, which is always bizarre to me since they were involved in this church when I met them and they were really, really involved.  Now they are on-and-off, here-and-there people, I don't think they consider themselves to have a church home. 

[ElizabethB]

Well, wouldn't that require a clear definition of what a cult is and how it objectively differs from a religion? It seems like without specifying which cult the OP is interested in discussing, this is nothing more than pot stirring.

 

I personally think there is pretty clear difference.  The original cult I was thinking about was ATI/Gothard, but when I was reading last night I was struck by how any true cult followed the same model.

 

Here is an article about the difference:

 

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-a-religion-and-a-cult

[Catwoman]

When I was reading last night, I found hundreds of cult examples and they all used the same model. For example, here is an article against something I have never heard of:

 

https://michaelbluejay.com/x/how-cults-recruit.html

Ok, but it still doesn't answer the question.

 

I can't imagine that most of us would be pro-cult in general, so I think you need to name something specific.

 

I'm sorry to harp on this, but at this point, even people who are members of an organization you might define as a cult would still post here and say they're against cults... because I would assume that most cult members don't think their own group is actually a cult.

[LarlaB]

So would Amish & Mennonites be considered a 'cult' by these standards?

[ElizabethB]

Yes, we have seen that from the Scientology videos, and my husband thinks the church was that way.  Very, very, very friendly at first, and then by the time you are coming several nights a week and spending Saturdays doing church events and your kids are enrolled in the school, you start to see a different side (or as my husband would say -- how they really are). 

 

I should go.... it is not the best thing for me to dwell on.

 

Also though ---- my ILs now find other churches to be "not as caring" as this church.  They will go somewhere for a month and not be satisfied, and it is like ----- they liked the way that church was.  They really liked it, and other churches don't seem as nice to them now.  My husband also says they were never as involved in any previous church when he was growing up, which is always bizarre to me since they were involved in this church when I met them and they were really, really involved.  Now they are on-and-off, here-and-there people, I don't think they consider themselves to have a church home. 

 

That is the same model, they draw people in with what several articles called a "love bomb" and then you see the different side once you are in.

[ElizabethB]

So would Amish & Mennonites be considered a 'cult' by these standards?

 

No, they are following the laws and not abusing children.  

[ElizabethB]

Ok, but it still doesn't answer the question.

 

I can't imagine that most of us would be pro-cult in general, so I think you need to name something specific.

 

I'm sorry to harp on this, but at this point, even people who are members of an organization you might define as a cult would still post here and say they're against cults... because I would assume that most cult members don't think their own group is actually a cult.

 

OK, we can talk about ATI/Gothard in specific as a cult for people that want specifics.

 

But, again, I was really struck by how similar the process was for drawing people in and how seemingly normal people shared their experiences of how they were drawn in to pretty wacky cults.

[regentrude]

No, they are following the laws and not abusing children.  

 

Ah, but that's where it gets tricky: they are exempt from certain laws. Education laws, child labor laws, tax laws... there's quite a long list.

And I do find it problematic that parents have the right to deny children the rights society has recognized as important, as long as parents claim to do so for religious reasons. 

 

ETA: One hallmark that would be a sign of them NOT being a cult is: they don't recruit followers. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by regentrude

[Guest]

Is there some master cult list somewhere?  Would it help to get them on a list? 

 

Maybe that is one thing we as homeschoolers could do, e-mail our local conventions and tell them that we will boycott if they allow any cults and then include a list of cults.

 

I did this.  We used to have a neat homeschool convention nearby--SWB spoke at it the year after I started homeschooling.  There were also the sessions on How To Be Sure You Have A Yummy Dinner On The Table At 5:00 Sharp and Look Like A Hottie for Hubbykins, and Preparing for the Purity Ball sessions, but there was at least a balancing list of educational and technical sessions.  I was a big financial supporter.

 

The next year, however, the balance tipped toward the Yummy Dinner/Hottie side, and there were almost no sessions worth attending.  I did go to the curriculum show, but got my first glimpse of why there were so many "religious nut" assumptions about homeschooling.  And at that show, I overheard two vendors holding a discussion about whether Catholics should be invited to the show next year.  No more financial support from me.  Ever.  And I told them so.  Probably someone within their own group stepped up to the plate, and no one even noticed.  BUT...

 

That year, there was a complete takeover of philosophy.  I don't know what happened to the convention, whether it is still running, but it has been completely compartmentalized out of the mainstream.  Since the fall of what's-his-Doug (the one who liked to dress in costume), I would assume that half the vendor space is empty.  

 

It was a real loss to me as the presentations by SWB and others were a tremendous help when I was getting started, and it provided a wonderful platform for meet-ups.  

 

I don't know what to do about some of these things.  It is one thing to withhold support which makes sense, but it gets pretty dicey taking away people's freedom.  That ... just sits wrong.  I think the best we can do is to educate people about the marks of cults...but even that needs to be done with care, because I know that looking in from the outside, a lot of things can LOOK like something other than they are.  

[mom2scouts]

She's talking about ATI/Gothard as a spin off of the minimum standards thread. 

 

My state requires yearly standardized testing for both genders.  I do not personally know any ATI members but they are easily identified by their hair and clothing.  They obey the law and I  see the ATI children of both genders at the yearly standardized testing sites.  Of course I don't know what their scores are.  What I'm saying in a roundabout way, is that having some homeschool oversight will help some of the more extreme problems.  But that varies by state. 

 

Is this just long hair, no makeup, and skirts or something else? I live near an area with a large Mennonite population and they dress like this, but the girls are educated in the same schools and classrooms as the boys.

Edited October 23, 2017 by mom2scouts

[AimeeM]

I am against all cults that are a true cult! The articles I read, they all seemed to follow a common pattern. But, there is not much you can do about adults, legally and morally, but when kids become involved and there is some kind of abuse going on, that is when I personally think there should be something done.

 

But, I also wonder if more people were aware of how cults work and how they draw you in, if people would be less likely to join a cult.

 

Your idea of cult might be another's idea of religion and vice versa. 

 

I'm Catholic. I live in Bob Jones Land (literally, BJU is 10 minutes from me). They consider Catholicism a cult (of some variety) -- and I know that the secular homeschoolers I hang with consider ALL religions essentially cults, so there's that. 

 

You said, "When kids become involved and there is some kind of abuse going on." But there's a difference between belonging to a religion or cult, and being abused. Abuse in that context would be a legal definition -- and there are already laws against child abuse. If you mean educational neglect, then you could work to change your state's homeschooling laws, but with the understanding that the new laws would apply to everybody, not just religious homeschoolers. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Is the just long hair, no makeup, and skirts or something else? I live near an area with a large Mennonite population and they dress like this, but the girls are educated in the same schools and classrooms as the boys.

 

The women (even the teen girls) tend to put their long hair in a sort of a bun.  It's hard to describe but it isn't the same as a Mennonite bun with a bonnet (do they call it a bonnet?).  Their skirts tend to be long.  Shirts on boys and girls buttoned up to the neck.  I'm not in a huge ATI / Gothard area like some others and don't have the firsthand knowledge that others have.  They tend to not talk to anyone outside of their group so even at the homeschool testing sessions I've never gotten to know them like I have other people.  I assume (though I don't know because I don't do co-ops either) that they don't attend the bigger co-ops in the area but perhaps get together just with each other. 

 

My state is not a high regulation state.  It is a pretty easy state.  We file a yearly letter of intent.  We have yearly testing from age 8 and up but we get the results (ie. it doesn't go to anyone else).  We have access to public school programs and classes if we want.  You do have to decide on high school though because once you start homeschooling high school, you can't switch to ps without your child being put back into 9th - even if you want to switch to an online school (which is still public).  I'm sure that there are people who chafe at even that amount of oversight and fly under the radar but none of those people have hit my radar either. 

[FaithManor]

So would Amish & Mennonites be considered a 'cult' by these standards?

I think the Amish in my area are absolutely a cult, and a very abusive one at that.

 

They abolished Rumspringa after two teens opted not to join the church. Then they beat the crap out of the two of them before shunning them. The police gave them a pass.

 

Their children do not being language instruction in English until 3rd grade and the school now only goes to 6th grade. They also only meet four days a week from Nov. through March. So the instruction is limited, the amount of time in school is small, and with only three years of English we are now seeing a crop of young adults who cannot read or write it, and are very limited in what they can read.

 

I have always felt that they SERIOUSLY violate the civil rights of their children, but recently it has gotten far worse so I definitely think they belong on the cult list.

 

The local Mennonite population has a K-8 school but then the kids do 9th and 10th grade Rod and CLE and some attend the tech center. Many take the GED and pass, and then do go on to a professional licensing course. A few do four full years of high school all the way through trig and physics and go into to college at Goshen College which is a decent LAC. Nursing is a common choice for the girls but there are a lot of majors available. We have had young couples leave the community and join local mainstream churches or deconvert from Christianity all together. The ones we have known who chose this have said extended family relations are a bit strained, but there is no shunning. There are probably Mennonite Communities that may be tougher to leave, but this one isn't too bad and the opportunity to get a foundational education is there. I think they do spank, but our sheriff says that he doesn't see a lot of abusive behavior, not more than in the general population. However runaways from the Amish report widespread abuse, neglect, young children left out in the elements for punishment some of whom die and are buried, and since they have no birth certificates because this bishop only allows home births and Amish midwives no other assistance, these are undocumented children. The maternal and infant mortality rate is high because of not allowing obstetrical assistance.

 

I can not stomach it and quit buying by produce from them quite a while ago.

 

Definitely a cult here.

[FaithManor]

I did this. We used to have a neat homeschool convention nearby--SWB spoke at it the year after I started homeschooling. There were also the sessions on How To Be Sure You Have A Yummy Dinner On The Table At 5:00 Sharp and Look Like A Hottie for Hubbykins, and Preparing for the Purity Ball sessions, but there was at least a balancing list of educational and technical sessions. I was a big financial supporter.

 

The next year, however, the balance tipped toward the Yummy Dinner/Hottie side, and there were almost no sessions worth attending. I did go to the curriculum show, but got my first glimpse of why there were so many "religious nut" assumptions about homeschooling. And at that show, I overheard two vendors holding a discussion about whether Catholics should be invited to the show next year. No more financial support from me. Ever. And I told them so. Probably someone within their own group stepped up to the plate, and no one even noticed. BUT...

 

That year, there was a complete takeover of philosophy. I don't know what happened to the convention, whether it is still running, but it has been completely compartmentalized out of the mainstream. Since the fall of what's-his-Doug (the one who liked to dress in costume), I would assume that half the vendor space is empty.

 

It was a real loss to me as the presentations by SWB and others were a tremendous help when I was getting started, and it provided a wonderful platform for meet-ups.

 

I don't know what to do about some of these things. It is one thing to withhold support which makes sense, but it gets pretty dicey taking away people's freedom. That ... just sits wrong. I think the best we can do is to educate people about the marks of cults...but even that needs to be done with care, because I know that looking in from the outside, a lot of things can LOOK like something other than they are.

What's his Doug could be Doug Phillips sex abuser and popular Jamestown nut. Or Doug Wilson popular for writing the Veritas Press Omnibus and then outed for supporting slavery, marital rape - he thinks women like to be conquered and should be in no doubt about who is the boss after the wedding night- and matchmaker extraordinaire for a convicted, prolific pedophile whom he thought he could cure by arranging a marriage to a young, naive woman in the congregation so the guy could have a baby and molest him by the time the little boys was a year old but Doug the moron still defends he pedophile!!!

 

Bingo we have two "winners".

 

Don't read any of the articles by the Moscow Idaho Daily News articles on him because you will want to puke. Wartburg Watch had some of it if you want a synopsis but really, it will just ruin your day so don't look.

Edited October 23, 2017 by FaithManor

[maize]

Re: homeschool regulation, what do you all think would be effective and not unnecessarily burdensome or restrictive?

 

I don't like the model that puts homeschoolers on probation of some sort if a child doesn't reach x percentile on a standardized test; someone has to be in those lower percentiles, regardless of the school setting!

 

Offering extra support and resources to parents with kids in the lower percentiles I could be on board with.

Edited October 23, 2017 by maize

[Jean in Newcastle]

Re: homeschool regulation, what do you all think would be effective and not unnecessarily burdensome or restrictive?

 

I don't like the model that puts homeschoolers on probation of done sort if a child doesn't reach x percentile in a standardized test; someone has to be in those lower percentiles, regardless of the school setting!

 

Offering extra support and resources to parents with kids in the lower percentile I could be on board with.

 

In our state, the standardized testing is supposed to show improvement each year.  Not a percentage.  They don't actually ask to see those tests (unless perhaps they do if you get investigated?) but I would have no problem if they did see the tests.  Showing improvement should be possible even for kids who are on the lower percentage levels. 

[mommaduck]

Certain groups you cannot put in a box as a whole. Anabaptists are one. There are so many different branches of Amish and equally so of Mennonites that you will find "mainstream" to extremely cultish and everywhere in between. Your more cultic groups will often spread out to other areas of the country, away from PA, because the cultures are both separate and intermixed here. However, even these groups have individuals that are prone to joining such as ATI/Gothard. Charity Gospel Ministries is pretty big on it and has created their own form of it, pushing the same type of thinking (and, yes, I call them a cult). 

[kiwik]

For me it is a cult when the leader becomes more important than the belief. If your pastor is more dominant than your god you are in a cult, if your leader can order you shunned or control your personal life then you are in a cult, if you are going against your conciense also cult. Some cults are religions but not every religion is a cult.

Edited October 25, 2017 by kiwik