What percentage of homeschoolers do you see not educating to a minimum standard?

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm guessing it's 1-5% around here.

[Lecka]

I have had a realization from this thread -- really I do know many people who couldn't get through a certain English or math class at community college, who went to public school. Yes, I do.

 

But for those couple of people closest to me, who had their education neglected by parents, I do think they could have been better off at public school because they lived in a good district. Of course they still would have had very little support at home and no accountability at home.... and that is unfortunately pretty significant.

 

But I can see how I would see things differently if I had Elizabeth's experience of personally knowing many people who failed from public school. It is a perspective I haven't had.

 

Part of it for me also is for my little BIL there was a lot of family stress and drama and he was overall neglected and isolated, it wasn't just neglect of education but he was left alone and to his own devices in a way that wasn't good for him. I wish we could have taken him at the time but we were not in a situation where we could.

[Heathermomster]

About 10 years ago, I met a recent homeschool graduate while DS was taking a karate class.  I asked her what her future plans were, and she stated that her father home churched.  She stayed home with her mom and helped raise her younger siblings.  She was looking to get married and asked me if I knew any available men.  My response was that my single guy friends prefer educated ladies, and they don't pursue children.  I also told her that I graduated from college and spent 6 years on active duty in the USN.  If her dad found out she spoke to me, he might become very unhappy, hunt me down, and burn me at the stake.  The girl just looked at me kinda wide-eyed and nodded her head.

 

I try very hard not to judge other people and their homeschool.  I have enough on my hands without journeying down that road.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Heathermomster

[klmama]

I only know of one family that educated their dds less thoroughly than their dss. Their dds are employed, and they are very friendly and reliable, so I expect that will continue. They just don't know algebra or beyond. I do feel badly for them, as they seem quite bright, but they are making it work.

I've known others with NT dc who were behind in math at high school level; they started out as unschoolers, then swiched gears. Everyone else behind in high school had other issues of one kind or another - dyslexia, ADHD, severe health problems, a combo.... They've all found their niche, though, either in college or employment.

ETA:  I easily know a couple hundred homeschool families, and I have a pretty good idea of what most of them do.  So, with only one family not educating girls the same as boys and only in regard to math, and only one family delaying math because of being unschoolers, it's about 1%, and again, only math was the problem.  On the other hand, I know several families that have had students who were NMS or earned full-ride or nearly full-ride scholarships for academics.  Most people here do a good job.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by klmama

[MedicMom]

I don’t know a percentage, but examples I’ve seen:

 

Mom is homeschooling a kinship foster 5 y/o with severe trauma and learning issues. She doesn’t believe in counseling and refused to take him until the court forced her to. She’s using a single workbook she found at Sam’s as the entirety of his education. She doesn’t read to him or take him places for enrichment. She has no money for curriculum or other things, plus I suspect has learning disabilities of her own. This child is certainly receiving a sub par education and the school district he’s in would provide better. Mom was homeschooled herself and simply is afraid of all the bad things she’s heard about PS.

 

15 y/o in one of my co-op classes. Talented writer, significantly behind in everything else. He liked school and had college aspirations. On his 16th birthday his dad said he no longer needed formal learning and needed to go work in the family contracting business.

 

Same co-op. Ninth grader with no learning disabilities. Parents had pulled her out of the local Christian school, as she was on the verge of getting kicked out for never doing her homework and cutting class consistently. Parents enrolled her in a couple of co-ops but refused to follow through at home. After multiple warnings I expelled her from my class. This was December and she had never read a single book(it was literature class) or turned in a single piece of homework.

 

My cousin, who is now 35 with three kids. She went to a part time homeschool part time ACE school. Girls were encouraged to marry young and forgo college or trade. She married at 19 without ever having worked a job. Now she’s getting divorced and the courts awarded placement to her ex husband specifically because she has no way to support them. The judge told her her he would reconsider once she has a job that can support them. She drives a school bus now but that isn’t enough. Her parents always said that they’d support her in the worst case scenario, but now they’re retired on a fixed income. She’s been screwed educationally, and New York won’t even recognize her high school diploma.

 

When I was a homeschooled teenager, I was always mad at my mom for the amount of work she expected. Once I got to college, though, I found I was very well prepared.

[Amber in SJ]

Only family members who took their precious darlings out of public school because the school couldn't understand that they were misunderstood geniuses and not trouble makers at all.  With no plan how to homeschool or what resources were available, I attempted to help by writing each child an "open & go" curriculum for history & language arts & told them to get a math curriculum that was hands off for the parent.  I don't believe Science can be done hands off so I recommended a local science class.  

 

To no avail....The parents thought they could literally give the kids paper & pencils and everything would be fine because the kids were so incredibly smart.

 

By high school the mom was ready to put her kids back in public school where they found themselves years behind their peers.  Luckily, they are quite intelligent, but it is a struggle.

 

Amber in SJ

[QueenCat]

Re girls not allowed to be educated - I have never met such a family, not even when I moved in the fundy homeschool circles. Never. There is not, in my community, a crisis of girls who are not allowed to be educated. 

 

My experience is that the family would educate the boys to a higher academic standard than the girls. But the girls still did academics. By high school, they were more focused on learning to manage a household but might become a midwife or help in a family business before marriage. I saw quite a bit of this in middle TN. 

[nixpix5]

I know one family out of many. This family is dealing with huge behavior issues with her children so it having a difficult time getting them to do anything. I suspect one child had ODD. She tries though and both kids are so smart they seem to pick up what they need through osmosis because they don't seem to be lacking yet. She feels guilty about it and is somewhat responsive to support and suggestions. Other then that though, everybody I know is doing an incredible job and appear to be far surpassing what our local public schools can do.

[Paige]

Of the people I know personally, there's only been 1 or 2 families that I think are actually neglectful. One in particular had older elementary/middle school kids who only did what the kids wanted with resources that the kids could self teach. So basically, the parents did nothing, and it was obviously not working. I was more concerned for the infant and toddler, though, who lacked what I consider normal supervision! Because of this, I vote 1%, but there's a larger subset that I think are legally homeschooling, but aren't providing a full, rich education.

 

When I lived in a rural, poorer area, I saw more people who only used things like ACE PACES and I don't consider that neglectful, but do consider it less than ideal. Often these kids spent more time working on family businesses or on childcare for siblings, and they would get their GRE at the minimum age instead of doing 4yrs of HS and graduating. I feel like that path limits the kids' options for the future and I felt sad about it and uncomfortable talking about education w/ their parents. My DS says that those kids feel sorry for him, however, because he has to work so hard and doesn't have as much free time! In the more urban/suburban areas we've lived where the overall population is wealthier and more highly educated, I don't see this nearly as much. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Paige

[scrapbookbuzz]

I chose "other" because I believe our jobs as homeschooling parents is to focus on the education of our own children,

not that of others. We don't know what different families backstories are. I choose to focus on the needs of my own children.

[GoodGrief]

I'm in an unregulated state, and homeschooled about 17 years. I know families who don't do things the way I would do them, but ultimately the kids seem to do okay and lead productive adult lives. Not sure what a minimum standard of education should be, or who gets to define that.

 

I haven't seen the huge discrepancy between LA and math scores either. It actually seems somewhat common (or not uncommon) for some kids (anecdotally ime, boys usually) to struggle with LA and have exceptionally high math scores. One of my daughters did have a much higher LA score generally, but she had probable dyscalculia.

 

For the most part, I think the homeschoolers are doing fine. I would frankly hate to see more regulation, and think it is unnecessary.

[Rachel]

I'm surprised at the people who don't talk academics in their homeschool circle! It was so common for us, including families dealing with various LDs and other challenges. I'm feeling kind of proud of my old group now, apparently it was a pretty "safe" place for most families.

We ask specific questions but don't really have lengthy conversations about homeschooling. Most of my homeschool friends just use whatever CC recommends and don't do any investigating on their own so if I need an opinion they can't really tell me why I should or shouldn't use a specific curriculum.

 

ETA: I do have a couple people that are pretty good about making suggestions or offering advice if I ask.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Rach

[Jyhwkmama]

Just want to say that I took Algebra 1 in 9th grade (good public school system), finished high school with all math including a semester of caculus, and went on to become an engineer.

 

Early Algebra is not vital for success. No need to rush.

[abacus2]

I voted other. I don't know or know of any families failing to teach their children. Even the family I know with a heavily patriarchal perspective expect their girls to go to college.

[Guest]

NM - opting out of this conversation

Edited October 24, 2017 by Tohru

[laundrycrisis]

I am in a zero regulation state.  Doing actual school work does not seem to be popular here.  Taking homeschooling seriously seems rare.  I have found a nice small community of hsers who appear committed to actually doing it.  I pretty much avoid all other hs specific things. I have become quite cynical. 

[KungFuPanda]

I voted a high-ish percent (but not 40%). I don't think homeschoolers are doing poorly overall, but I think around here some homeschoolers are a bit delusional and don't realize that the local school kids are doing some demanding work and meeting some fairly high standards. There's this arrogance that says kids will learn more at home no matter what you do, and that's just not true. The kids in school are doing the work and it takes effort to keep up or surpass them. It won't happen haphazardly.

[Sneezyone]

I have no clue. I only associate with a few HSers in real life. One is family—our familial standards are high and she is a trained teacher so I’ve no doubts about them at all. One is a friend—we’ve discussed curric and approaches quite often, even shared resources, so I’ve no doubts about them. The others are only in passing and, whenever I mention classical curric or approaches, they look clueless and overwhelmed. They homeschool primarily for religious/ideological reasons and prefer Abeka-type stuff. One even mentioned using some random Ron Paul curriculum?! I had no idea he was a curric developer.😳 So, yeah, I’ll just stick with my self-selected tribe/bubble.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Sneezyone

[BlsdMama]

. None of the homeschooled highschoolers in my kids' group who have graduated completed four years of highschool level math.

This is a good example why minimum must be defined. When I graduated from high school TWO years were required.

 

 

I voted five percent but that might be high. One family had very young children and the way she schooled was intentional but would be inadequate by TWTM standards. Another was inadequate but the oldest son did make it into college with scholarships so despite what Mom said they did, their schooling may have been better than how it appeared.

[regentrude]

This is a good example why minimum must be defined. When I graduated from high school TWO years were required.

 

I should have been specific. Our state requires 3 credits for public schools; the state college prep recommendation is four credits algebra 1 and above. What I see in fellow homeschoolers in our group is 1 or 2 or none. 

 

I have an issue with labeling a program "college prep" when they are barely getting through algebra 1 and geometry. We are not talking about a student with LDs. 

[kiana]

I would say that there is a large difference between "minimum standards" and "minimum standards for what the post-hs goals are". 

 

If a child has one or two legit years of HS math and their plans are going directly to a 4-year college (especially if they're intending on a STEM major), they're not meeting minimum standards for their post-hs goals, even if they may be able to get in somewhere with a "hook". But I wouldn't say that that's below minimum standards overall -- they're behind, but not ludicrously so, and many PS students are on a similar level. If their goals are just getting into the local CC, or going directly to work, it's enough (although it's still below what I'd like to see, and I'd encourage anyone asking for advice to do more).

[creekland]

Considering all the differences in what folks consider "fine" (not meaning just Hive folks, but the general homeschooling population), I'm not surprised at all that colleges want to see proof of accomplishment (ACT/SAT/AP/DE success, etc) moreso than they require it from ps students (and it's not as if most don't look at those from ps).

 

Middle son's relatively highly selective school also wanted to see proof that he did things outside of our house.  His clubs, DE, travel (not always with family) and senior project helped for that.  They offered him the best aid package of any school he applied to.  He didn't let them down.  He did extremely well there too.  But I fully understand they couldn't just take my word for his ability.  I also don't think he'd have been as prepared foundationally had he attended our ps.  Homeschooling allowed him to be and do all he did.

[summerreading]

Just one. She went to private school for 8th after PS and they tested her into 5th grade, so her mom pulled her to HS. But she didn't and the girl never got an education. at all. 

The mother ended up have some major mental health issues, and this is why I'm against zero regulations. 

[theelfqueen]

I watched helpless as my sister in law let one of her kids do basically nothing and fail online charter and call it "homeschooling" .... he's back in B&M now and doing way better.

 

I did talk to her about the level of involvement I had with my kids daily in traditional homeschooling and attempted to make suggestions . .. loaned a full set of Key to algebra that was then destroyed by their dogs ughhh without being used by their kid at all... but it was a super wasted year for nephew.

 

And I have a friend in another state (friend and I know each other through a shared hobby) whose daughter, I think, uses Lifepacs... and is about to "graduate" with an education that I feel is lacking. But she never intended to attend college... The daughter is a delightful girl who has a part time job, has published a book, is fairly successful as a YouTuber ... but I think she could have been better served.

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[cintinative]

Like Regentrude, I've seen mostly kids ahead on reading and knowledgeable about history, cultures, and humanities, but extremely weak in math and science. Which is really sad when it's a kid who likes math and science.

 

This. I have taught about four science classes to homeschoolers and I am really surprised at the variations in math ability coming into the class. I know we are doing a somewhat accelerated curriculum (singapore based) but it's not THAT accelerated.  I have had kids in 4th grade who don't know how to do a bar graph.  

 

I don't know that I would say this is "not educating to a minimum standard" but I definitely question what the scope and sequence of the math is if they haven't covered certain things by 4th grade.   

 

Maybe this is off-topic but I am seeing more and more people becoming hands-off with math at early ages--they want video based, student-led math before 4th grade. My kids are still not able to be independent with math.

[EmilyGF]

I'm pretty unimpressed by the math that homeschoolers do (or rather, don't do). 

 

I think it is important to hang out with people who chose other options because it keeps you realistic about what is out there. We have really amazing schools and really bad schools around us. I find homeschoolers tend to generalize all schools to the worst. As much as I sometimes with I had more homeschooling friends, the friends I have, with their kids at publics, charters, and privates, keep me honest about the education people around us are getting.

 

And, might I add, hubby teaches at a prestigious private college and is appalled at the lack of mathematical ability his students come in with. So I guess even those public schoolers with amazing applications are having a hard time actually applying the math the claim to have learned without fear.

 

Emily

[eternalsummer]

What do you think?  Is it regional?  

 

I have personally seen perhaps around 1% not educating well, mainly daughters, and even those were doing better than the public schools in their area for reading, although most not for math.  We have lived in a lot of different states and I have interacted with a lot of different homeschoolers.  My kids like having homeschool friends, so in the past, we have always joined a few local co-ops and organizations to get to know people.  (Now that my husband is retired and we are staying in one place longer than a year or two, they have neighborhood and activity friends and we don't currently have a local homeschool group other than my comments on the local Facebook group and an occasional activity.)

 

I also give out reading grade level tests to all parents I know and have found various levels of illiteracy among the neighborhood kids, ranging from 20% to 40% depending on how well the school teaches and the percent of parents able to afford tutoring.  They are functionally illiterate because of sight words, 2 to 12 grade levels behind but appearing to be able to read on the surface because they have a stock of sight words that they know.  I have given out thousands of grade level tests.  In one neighborhood where we lived every single family but one did the test or had me give it.  (I offer to give it for them if they want me to do it instead, telling them that I'm practiced and it will just take me a minute, some of the parents are functionally illiterate and this gives them an easy way to not admit that.  I also give recommend various remedial materials but help parents who can't figure out how to teach on their own.)

 

I feel bad for anyone who is behind for whatever reason and help remediate everyone I can, I was just wondering what people thought the percentages were.

 

 

What do you mean by appearing to be able to read on the surface because of a stock of sight words?  Do you mean that if you gave them say a flyer for a missing dog, they could read, "Dog missing - brown and black with white feet, 20 pounds, responds to "Rover," call 123-456-7890, reward $50 if found"?  Or that they couldn't read that - but in that case what can they read?  If that can read the above, what couldn't they read?

[ElizabethB]

What do you mean by appearing to be able to read on the surface because of a stock of sight words?  Do you mean that if you gave them say a flyer for a missing dog, they could read, "Dog missing - brown and black with white feet, 20 pounds, responds to "Rover," call 123-456-7890, reward $50 if found"?  Or that they couldn't read that - but in that case what can they read?  If that can read the above, what couldn't they read?

 

I have a whole page about it and two example passages.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/aliterate.html

 

Explanation about the example passages:

 

Here is a comparison of the King James Version (KJV) of Romans 12 to the New International Version (NIV) version of Romans 12 to show both the nature of vocabulary restrictions caused by whole word teaching and also to show how uncomfortable it is to be a reader taught with whole word methods. The KJV is on the first page, the NIV is on the second page. If you were taught with whole word methods, you would have to guess at several of the words (those words not in the most common 10,000 words in the English language) based on their first and last letters. Depending on your memorization abilities, several of the red words would be difficult and would require study, and the purple words would be slightly more difficult to remember. The KJV has 10% of its words that are not the most common 10,000 words in the English language; the vocabulary impoverished NIV has only 2%.

 

I am being generous with 10,000, most people can only memorize 1,000 to 5,000.  Also, with balanced literacy, some phonics is now taught although they start with sight words.  When I first started tutoring, many of the schools where we lived were doing 100% whole language and none of my remedial students knew all of their consonants.  Now most of my students know all of the of the consonants, but most have trouble with vowels, especially 2 letter vowel teams, and they are not using phonics automatically, they will often guess at an unknown word instead of trying to sound it out.  Since most passages are now dumbed down, you might not realize your child is not reading well until they try to read something with a lot of multi syllable words or unfamiliar words.

 

Direct link to example passages:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/Resources/Romans12a.pdf

Edited October 25, 2017 by ElizabethB

[ElizabethB]

What do you mean by appearing to be able to read on the surface because of a stock of sight words?  Do you mean that if you gave them say a flyer for a missing dog, they could read, "Dog missing - brown and black with white feet, 20 pounds, responds to "Rover," call 123-456-7890, reward $50 if found"?  Or that they couldn't read that - but in that case what can they read?  If that can read the above, what couldn't they read?

 

They could most likely read all the words in that but the word "responds," they would guess something that started with r and ended with d. They are taught to guess from context.

 

The books that are sent home and the school books use words in the most common 1,000 and those are taught as wholes.  That is how the early books in the Accelerated Reader program are structured and why most beginning reading books meant for school children are hard for homeschool children, they are based on most frequent sight words, not phonics words.  (The level 1, 2, 3, etc. books.)

 

You can also figure out if there is a problem with word lists, words in isolation are harder to guess from context.  They will also make errors when reading fast on simple words, such as "wing" for "wig," "fog" for "frog," or "cop" for "cup."  Most will not be able to read a word with like "squirrel," I have had hundreds of students guess "squeal" for "squirrel" on the MWIA test, which compares the speed and accuracy of reading sight words vs. phonetically regular words. The next most missed phonics word is "gulps."  Most of my remedial students miss a lot more phonetic words than sight words and read them slower.  A good reader will read them at exactly the same speed and have no errors on either list.  (They are all simple one syllable words.)  

 

Here is an example of leveled readers based on sight words, the words are shown for the books.  Levels C to F especially show the sight word nature of the books, a beginning reading student expected to read "When elephants are happy, they make a sound like a trumpet."  They put the word trumpet and a picture of a trumpet at the top as a "picture cue" to help the student guess the word trumpet.

 

https://kindercraze.com/best-leveled-books-scholastic-reading-club/

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by ElizabethB

[eternalsummer]

That is interesting, especially the data about how many students miss the word squirrel.  I graded 4th grade SOL writing samples for a few years running for Pearson, and read probably 10,000 responses.  One year was all about squirrels, and man, they did not know how to spell squirrel.  I think it was Virginia students (or Tennessee or something) and they were largely phonetically accurate for the dialect - "squarl" was the most popular spelling.

 

I am fairly certain I didn't learn to read via phonics, but rather with whole words, but it is hard to say - I taught myself to read from the funny pages of the newspaper when I was 4.  At 5 I read Dr Seuss to the kindergarten class.  My spelling has always been impeccable, and I have a large vocabulary, but I often mispronounce words that I've never heard but only read.  Perhaps I've inferred most phonics rules and as I've learned new vocabulary through reading, have added those words to my known list, or something.

 

I thought the way most people read was not sounding out words but rather recognizing them by sight, or recognizing blocks of words by sight.  I know that learning to read is different but I'm not super clear on what happens between the phonics of the beginning and the obviously non-phonics of most adult reading.

[ElizabethB]

That is interesting, especially the data about how many students miss the word squirrel.  I graded 4th grade SOL writing samples for a few years running for Pearson, and read probably 10,000 responses.  One year was all about squirrels, and man, they did not know how to spell squirrel.  I think it was Virginia students (or Tennessee or something) and they were largely phonetically accurate for the dialect - "squarl" was the most popular spelling.

 

I am fairly certain I didn't learn to read via phonics, but rather with whole words, but it is hard to say - I taught myself to read from the funny pages of the newspaper when I was 4.  At 5 I read Dr Seuss to the kindergarten class.  My spelling has always been impeccable, and I have a large vocabulary, but I often mispronounce words that I've never heard but only read.  Perhaps I've inferred most phonics rules and as I've learned new vocabulary through reading, have added those words to my known list, or something.

 

I thought the way most people read was not sounding out words but rather recognizing them by sight, or recognizing blocks of words by sight.  I know that learning to read is different but I'm not super clear on what happens between the phonics of the beginning and the obviously non-phonics of most adult reading.

 

The brains of adult good readers are actually processing letters and letter teams in the area of the brain that processes sounds and spoken language, just really fast and in parallel.  It is so fast that many people think they are reading them as wholes.  Recent brain research has found that we are processing them as sounds instead, Stanislas Dehaene has several good articles about it, and a book called "Reading in the Brain," here are some of his articles:

 

http://www.unicog.org/biblio/Author/DEHAENE-S.html

 

People that teach themselves or that do fine without much phonics are probably figuring out the phonetic code on their own, there is not definitive research about that.

 

I used to mispronounce a few words I'd never heard but only read but after learning advanced phonics and spelling rules with all my tutoring, I now do not mispronounce new words unless it is something from an obscure foreign language.  I teach most of the rules and patterns in my syllables program.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

Edited October 25, 2017 by ElizabethB

[Laura Corin]

I would say that there is a large difference between "minimum standards" and "minimum standards for what the post-hs goals are". 

 

If a child has one or two legit years of HS math and their plans are going directly to a 4-year college (especially if they're intending on a STEM major), they're not meeting minimum standards for their post-hs goals, even if they may be able to get in somewhere with a "hook". But I wouldn't say that that's below minimum standards overall -- they're behind, but not ludicrously so, and many PS students are on a similar level. If their goals are just getting into the local CC, or going directly to work, it's enough (although it's still below what I'd like to see, and I'd encourage anyone asking for advice to do more).

 

I like English/Welsh case law on this issue.  This is the basic law:

Compulsory education

7: Duty of parents to secure education of children of compulsory school age

The parent of every child of compulsory school age shall cause him to receive efficient full-time education suitable—

a: to his age, ability and aptitude, and

b: to any special educational needs he may have,

either by regular attendance at school or otherwise.

 

This is the subsequent case law that refines this:

 

The responsibility for a child's education rests with his or her parents. An "efficient" and

"suitable" education is not defined in the Education Act 1996 but "efficient" has been broadly described in case law as an education that "achieves that which it sets out to

achieve", and a "suitable" education is one that "primarily equips a child for life within the community of which he is a member, rather than the way of life in the country as a whole,

as long as it does not foreclose the child's options in later years to adopt some other form of life if he wishes to do so".

 

The balance seems decent: you can be educated to function in your community but that should not foreclose your future development. If you live on a hill farm in Wales, you can learn an awful lot about sheep, but should also take a standard number of classes/exams to enable a different path in the future.

[Guest]

Add me to those who can’t say with any authority. Fortunately, the number of times I’ve heard someone say something about their education theory that I thought was crazy/lazy/negligent has been very rare. Other than that, I have no way of knowing.

[kiana]

My siblings and I definitely learned to read with sight words (Ladybird) and inferred the phonics rules, but we grew up in a highly literate household where if we did say the wrong word, we would be corrected and "Not wig, do you see the 'n'? what word is that?" 

 

I honestly think that one big flaw with a lot of programs (like the completely drill-free math programs as well) that look great in theory and don't do that poorly in trials, but utterly flop in widespread implementation, is that they don't work badly with neurotypical children from families with the cultural and/or financial capital to realize where their child is not making connections and either supplement on their own or pay for supplementation. So when tested in schools populated largely with those children, they look fine, but when implemented on a widespread basis they do not. 

[mommyoffive]

I know one non educating HS family. I think that is primarily due to mental illness in both parents.

 

I'm someone who is still in love with homeschooling. I'm more in love with homeschooling than I was 17 years ago, because now I can SEE the results in my own family.

 

Another reason I'm still in love with homeschooling is because I have not had a ton of contact with other homeschoolers. I have never been in a co-op. We didn't join the HS Girl Scout troop.

 

Do you know who my friends are-public school teachers. They tell me about the student they had who failed Algebra 1 four times before they got them and discovered that the student just needed extra time to pass with an A.

 

They tell me how PS is destroying their own children's enthusiasm for learning.

 

And when I cry to them that I may be shortchanging one of my own kids. They hug me and assure me that my kid would be neglected in their class because they have to ignore the bright kids to help the ones that are drowning.

 

And they cry to me about how they regret leaving their own kids in PS and how they feel like they are so unprepared for college as a result.

 

They tell me that they wish their kid could gone to my homeschool and graduate with a good grasp on algebra and geometry rather than having been sped through advanced courses with no comprehension and no accountability.

 

I don't judge other families' progress.

 

We always say, "It is a marathon, not a sprint."

 

Yet some people want kids tested every lap to see if they are ahead or behind. That isn't helpful to me. Where my kid is in second grade compared to yours has absolutely no relation to which one will be ready for college or which one will do better after graduation. That is just measuring the first lap.

 

I have been homeschooling long enough to see a trend that some of the people who were the most "perfect" homeschoolers now have young adults with the most problems. I don't wish that I had been more like them and been more strict with my schedules and lesson plans and color coded binders.

 

I'm happy for every detour and unplanned day off and bunny trail and hobby. These are the things that give my kids stability and balance in their lives. These are the things that make them unusual and unique. These are the things that keep them from burning out.

 

I'm not making value judgements on how other families are doing. I'm not keeping track of what lap your kid is on.

 

But if you are keeping track of mine, I'll let you know that I have an 11 year old who is "behind" in writing. She keeps resisting and the writing programs I have tried have not been a good fit.

 

So every day, I read out loud to her from "Style Towards Clarity and Grace" she thinks that she is putting one over on me by not actually doing any writing. But I know, someday soon, when I'm reading, she is going to scream, "OMG! Give me my stupid laptop! I can write so much better than these morons!"

 

And then she will be off! Racing through the laps for herself. And she will own it. And she will love it.

 

So no. I'm not in favor of mandatory testing for any kid. I'm not worried about if I'm doing enough. I'm not worried about if you are.

 

I may only have 10 years of homeschooling left and I will be much too busy enjoying every minute of it!

 

 

Thank you for posting this.   I really love hearing from people who have the experience from the other side to say it works.  I think I will read this over and over when I am in doubt. 

[Crimson Wife]

I'm pretty unimpressed by the math that homeschoolers do (or rather, don't do). 

 

I think it is important to hang out with people who chose other options because it keeps you realistic about what is out there. We have really amazing schools and really bad schools around us. I find homeschoolers tend to generalize all schools to the worst. As much as I sometimes with I had more homeschooling friends, the friends I have, with their kids at publics, charters, and privates, keep me honest about the education people around us are getting.

 

And, might I add, hubby teaches at a prestigious private college and is appalled at the lack of mathematical ability his students come in with. So I guess even those public schoolers with amazing applications are having a hard time actually applying the math the claim to have learned without fear.

 

Emily

 

I have been extremely unimpressed by the math that our zoned PS does. It's like someone saw Singapore but didn't actually understand it and wrote a curriculum with superficial similarities that doesn't actually make sense. I know that I'm going to have to "afterschool" with Right Start or Singapore or MM or the like once we get my DD reading fluently (that's the priority for right now). 

 

If I only had her to worry about, I know I could do a MUCH better job HSing math than what the local PS is doing for her.

 

[Carrie12345]

Thinking more on this, the education standards *within my household* vary by child, so I'm really at a loss for how to attempt to define others.  My best guess is that I come across as almost neglectfully relaxed to some people, and hyper-controlling and rigorous to others.

 

I'm pretty unschooly at home with my youngest two, but they attend some incredible outsourced classes, mostly STEAM focused.  My high schoolers have very eclectic extracurriculars with a few top notch outsourced classes. Their content at home is rather high level in some areas, but our scheduling is hippy dippy loosey goosey.  I think they're maybe working on some school work right now?

 

I know they don't fit some of the public schools' content expectations.

People in our non-homeschool circles regularly comment on their intelligence and/or maturity and/or poise and/or responsibility and/or work ethic.

My husband can't find hard working problem solvers with decent communication skills to hire in "the real world".

I aim to exceed state graduation requirements, but have no problem admitting that I get very creative with those.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Carrie12345

[ElizabethB]

My siblings and I definitely learned to read with sight words (Ladybird) and inferred the phonics rules, but we grew up in a highly literate household where if we did say the wrong word, we would be corrected and "Not wig, do you see the 'n'? what word is that?"

 

I honestly think that one big flaw with a lot of programs (like the completely drill-free math programs as well) that look great in theory and don't do that poorly in trials, but utterly flop in widespread implementation, is that they don't work badly with neurotypical children from families with the cultural and/or financial capital to realize where their child is not making connections and either supplement on their own or pay for supplementation. So when tested in schools populated largely with those children, they look fine, but when implemented on a widespread basis they do not.

There is a study they did that showed that phonics reduced illiteracy more for poor and minorities. those that had the highest reduction were poor black students. At the time, Asians were also one of the highest reduced categories, but now Asians do better with current methods, there is more availability of things like Kuman and Sylvan for them, there was not when the study was done. I did a video about it.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zORKu1F5wx0

Edited October 25, 2017 by ElizabethB

[Hannah]

South Africa has an accreditation body that sets the grade 12 exit examination standards.  The minimum requirements are based on examination results from accredited examination boards.  The lowest qualification is a  'senior certificate with higher admission requirements" which allows entry to higher certificate training colleges or apprenticeships for vocational training.  The minimum is really low - three subjects of which one a home language passed at 40% and another 3 at 30%.  Then there is senior certificate with diploma admission requirements and a 'matric with exemption' is a senior certificate with degree admission requirements which allows minimum entry to university.  The minimum requirement is 50% for 6 subjects, but that will not allow entry to many competitive courses which have their own per subject minimum requirements and selection criteria which may include a portfolio of non-academic achievements.

 

For me, preparing a neurotypical child to at least have access to further education is attaining the minimum.

 

I know about 20 families in our area who homeschool.  There is one that I think has not attained the minimum.  By all accounts their son is academically able, but at 17  they've allowed him to drop out of the cottage school (5 students per class) he was attending.

He is working as a rigger for the construction company of a family friend.  The problem I see is that he cannot even register for an artisan test without a basic matric.  He will have to study on his own to get a basic certificate or wait until he is 25 and gets exemption as an 'adult learner' before he can pursue any higher education - even those with the lowest requirement as he does not have any examination certificates at all.  So, unless he starts his own business, he is limited in his earning potential from day one as the vast majority of job adverts will have 'matric certificate' as a minimum requirement, even for manual work.

 

There are other families that 'started late', but all of them are ensuring that their children finish their school careers with some kind of school leaving certificate in hand by age 20.

[Laurie4b]

My minimums?  Common Core minimums?  WTM minimums?  Other minimums?

Year by year, or K-12 overview?

Skill or content?  Memorization or critical thinking?

 

If you've seen the families who I think the OP is referencing, it's pretty clear: 

 

There are some former homeschooler groups who advocate about this issue. They "graduated" from homeschool without anything close to a normal high school education or way to support themselves. 

 

A lot of girls get co-opted into helping mom take care of many siblings. So they are taught to watch babies, do laundry, clean.... and not much more. Maybe 4th or 5th grade education. Their destiny is to be moms and wives anyway. What more would they need to know? 

 

Boys and girls who are co-opted into "following Daddy's vision." This isn't like farm families. It's nothing normal. 

 

Boys, however, usually get the better deal in these families. 

 

There are also families I've seen where it is not ideological. It may be a mother who is extremely overwhelmed, probably also coping with mental illness, and there is just no education going on. I'm not talking about thoughtful unschooling. I'm talking about none. 

[Carrie12345]

If you've seen the families who I think the OP is referencing, it's pretty clear: 

 

There are some former homeschooler groups who advocate about this issue. They "graduated" from homeschool without anything close to a normal high school education or way to support themselves. 

 

A lot of girls get co-opted into helping mom take care of many siblings. So they are taught to watch babies, do laundry, clean.... and not much more. Maybe 4th or 5th grade education. Their destiny is to be moms and wives anyway. What more would they need to know? 

 

Boys and girls who are co-opted into "following Daddy's vision." This isn't like farm families. It's nothing normal. 

 

Boys, however, usually get the better deal in these families. 

 

There are also families I've seen where it is not ideological. It may be a mother who is extremely overwhelmed, probably also coping with mental illness, and there is just no education going on. I'm not talking about thoughtful unschooling. I'm talking about none. 

 

I see.  I don't think I know any of those examples.  I do know a few with the "mom and wife" goal, but they're bright girls doing high school appropriate work (ignoring my views on creation science for a moment.)

 

I HAVE been a woefully minimalist homeschooler through life circumstances before, not through ideology, but it was a period (well, 2,) not an ongoing thing.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I see.  I don't think I know any of those examples.  I do know a few with the "mom and wife" goal, but they're bright girls doing high school appropriate work (ignoring my views on creation science for a moment.)

 

I HAVE been a woefully minimalist homeschooler through life circumstances before, not through ideology, but it was a period (well, 2,) not an ongoing thing.

 

I don't know any of those examples either.  That's why I think that it probably varies widely by region. 

[blondeviolin]

I've read some replies but not all. I know a few homeschoolers and most of them are definitely meeting the minimum requirements. What I would want for my kids? No. But definitely not shortchanging their children by any stretch of the imagination. Conversely, they probably wouldn't want my kids' education for their children because priorities.

 

I've heard of plenty of families here who aren't doing the bare minimum and I get pained with that brush regularly because is apparently super common here. It's ironic, however, since my current state just published results of last year's assessments and 90% of schools tested at more than 50% that were not proficient. And my local school is one of the better with only 31-50% below proficient. :001_huh:

 

My 4yo attends sp. ed. PreK but I'm pretty certain he will be home with us next year for K.

[luuknam]

When we were homeschooling 4th grade with DS1, he went to take the FCAT (standardized test) offered for 4th grade homeschoolers at the county office.  I struck up a conversation with another Mom.  Seeing as we were both homeschooling, I asked her about curricula she liked.  She told me that her child had used one of those books from Sam's Club/Costco as his curriculum this year, and it had been so affordable and easy.  At first I thought she was joking.  She was not.  That was all she used, along with a trip or two to the library.  To me, that would not meet my minimum requirements for homeschooling.  I have no idea how her kid did on the exam, though.

 

 

I know someone who is mostly an unschooler but has her kids do a couple of pages from a book like that (or a spectrum test prep book, actually, I think) per day. So, very minimal (she does take her kids to the library regularly though). She tests her kids for the next grade up, so when she sends in her paperwork she basically writes that they're just going to do w/e they feel like because the kids already scored greater than the 33rd percentile for the grade they're starting. The kids used to score pretty decently, but when they were entering 5th or 6th grade (not entirely sure... might be 5th and 6th grade, since they're one grade apart) she said they scored just barely over that minimum 33rd percentile NY requires. But, that still meets a minimum standard, since 33rd percentile for the next grade up is probably about 50th percentile for the grade they're finishing, so, average (and, well, even if it was 33rd percentile for the grade they're finishing, that's still be meeting a minimum standard... I'm not sure what I would consider to be the cut-off for meeting a "minimum standard", but, NYS's 33rd percentile thing still seems reasonable as a lower boundary). I haven't really talked to her since (due to random circumstances), but I got the impression she was thinking of upping her game. 

 

I know someone else whose kid did badly for a year or two due to a chronic illness, but that kid still met NYS's 33rd percentile cut-off too, afaik, though her mom was worried for a bit that the kid might not. 

 

Basically, I don't know anyone who is not meeting NY's minimum standard... that said, NY's 33rd percentile rule is about the composite score of math and language arts, so you could really blow either of those so long as you do well on the other and still meet the 33rd percentile overall. I don't know the details of anyone else's scores, so I can't comment on that. My own kids are much better at math than at writing - oldest is definitely weak in writing (though still >33rd percentile on all the subtests for that, iirc), but, he's still elementary school aged, and I do plan to step up his writing instruction in middle school. I don't know anywhere near enough people well enough to vote on a percentage. 

Edited October 25, 2017 by luuknam

[Heathermomster]

My state’s honeschool laws changed about 2.5 years ago, so church covers are no longer mandatory. Anyhoo..

 

I joined a cover when my son was in the seventh grade. DH and I interviewed to get our DS enrolled. The cover has multiple mandatory curriculum checks plus we report school days. Mandatory testing starts in fourth grade, and no senior receives a diploma unless they score a minimum of a 16 on the ACT and complete a minimum number of classes. The cover regularly graduates national merit scholarship finalists. The students tend to win multiple State awards for science and art. Several of the students become engineers and ROTC candidates. The paperwork is crazy and feels oppressive sometimes, but I’m starting to see the wisdom in the method. If the students do not complete their work, the families are asked to leave. I guess you can say a majority of the homeschoolers we know work at a standard.

[snowbeltmom]

I know someone who is mostly an unschooler but has her kids do a couple of pages from a book like that (or a spectrum test prep book, actually, I think) per day. So, very minimal (she does take her kids to the library regularly though). She tests her kids for the next grade up, so when she sends in her paperwork she basically writes that they're just going to do w/e they feel like because the kids already scored greater than the 33rd percentile for the grade they're starting. The kids used to score pretty decently, but when they were entering 5th or 6th grade (not entirely sure... might be 5th and 6th grade, since they're one grade apart) she said they scored just barely over that minimum 33rd percentile NY requires. But, that still meets a minimum standard, since 33rd percentile for the next grade up is probably about 50th percentile for the grade they're finishing, so, average (and, well, even if it was 33rd percentile for the grade they're finishing, that's still be meeting a minimum standard... I'm not sure what I would consider to be the cut-off for meeting a "minimum standard", but, NYS's 33rd percentile thing still seems reasonable as a lower boundary). I haven't really talked to her since (due to random circumstances), but I got the impression she was thinking of upping her game. 

 

I know someone else whose kid did badly for a year or two due to a chronic illness, but that kid still met NYS's 33rd percentile cut-off too, afaik, though her mom was worried for a bit that the kid might not. 

 

Basically, I don't know anyone who is not meeting NY's minimum standard... that said, NY's 33rd percentile rule is about the composite score of math and language arts, so you could really blow either of those so long as you do well on the other and still meet the 33rd percentile overall. I don't know the details of anyone else's scores, so I can't comment on that. My own kids are much better at math than at writing - oldest is definitely weak in writing (though still >33rd percentile on all the subtests for that, iirc), but, he's still elementary school aged, and I do plan to step up his writing instruction in middle school. I don't know anywhere near enough people well enough to vote on a percentage. 

Wow to the bolded as that seems harsh.  What happens if the student tests below the 33rd percentile?  Are they no longer able to homeschool?  What does the state of NY do with the public school students who test below the 33rd percentile?  Are they required to repeat the grade? Or maybe they are told that the public school failed them and that they should homeschool (just kidding, sort of).

[Tammi K]

I chose 'Other'

 

In Alaska, home-schooling can be anything from complete and totally free of any oversight at all to being enrolled in a public or charter school and receiving a State allotment.

 

Many hs-ers I know take advantage of one of the oversight option because of the allotment and with those programs there are rules and regulations which vary from minimum to strict depending on the program you choose. Since many, many hs-ers here choose one of these options, I know that they are meeting the minimum standards determined by their Board of Directors or School Board.

 

Of course, we have independent schoolers and un-schoolers who may not meet any standard what-so-ever but I've never run into them. So, who knows?

[freesia]

Wow to the bolded as that seems harsh.  What happens if the student tests below the 33rd percentile?  Are they no longer able to homeschool?  What does the state of NY do with the public school students who test below the 33rd percentile?  Are they required to repeat the grade? Or maybe they are told that the public school failed them and that they should homeschool (just kidding, sort of).

 

It's 33rd percentile OR one year growth. Some parents with kids who struggle test every year in order to show the growth.  However, those kids usually have some kind of LD.

If you can't meet either criteria you go on probation and the school is supposed to offer you help if you need it.  And I actually like that, because if your child is not making any progress for 2 years, you probably need help--probably LD testing for the child.

 

But you don't have to test until 5th grade (and then 7th grade) and then yearly in high school.  So this doesn't impact young kids who take longer to catch on to reading and math.

 

Yeah, about NY schools that don't reach that. . .

 

I think Colorado's lower threshold is something in the teens b/c when they wrote the law, the homeschool lawyers argued that they couldn't hold the parent responsible for more than they held the public schools responsible for.

 

I've never known any child to score a composite lower than 33rd.

[eternalsummer]

I can't imagine that 33% of students have a learning disability.

 

I like Colorado's threshold.

[freesia]

I can't imagine that 33% of students have a learning disability.

 

I like Colorado's threshold.

That's why they have the one year growth option.

 

But I actually agree with you. If the lowest scoring school continues on at 17% why are you holding parents to a higher standard.

 

However, as a former teacher, in the district I was in that lower performing school would get support too.

 

But they wouldn't insist the child be sent to homeschool or another school if the school failed to up the percentage. And that's why I don't love it.

 

I have, however, known parents who got a tutor or testing when their child scored low. It was a wake up call for them. So I do see value in occasional testing. I've never known anyone who had to return their child to school because of assessment.