What percentage of homeschoolers do you see not educating to a minimum standard?

[ElizabethB]

What do you think?  Is it regional?  

 

I have personally seen perhaps around 1% not educating well, mainly daughters, and even those were doing better than the public schools in their area for reading, although most not for math.  We have lived in a lot of different states and I have interacted with a lot of different homeschoolers.  My kids like having homeschool friends, so in the past, we have always joined a few local co-ops and organizations to get to know people.  (Now that my husband is retired and we are staying in one place longer than a year or two, they have neighborhood and activity friends and we don't currently have a local homeschool group other than my comments on the local Facebook group and an occasional activity.)

 

I also give out reading grade level tests to all parents I know and have found various levels of illiteracy among the neighborhood kids, ranging from 20% to 40% depending on how well the school teaches and the percent of parents able to afford tutoring.  They are functionally illiterate because of sight words, 2 to 12 grade levels behind but appearing to be able to read on the surface because they have a stock of sight words that they know.  I have given out thousands of grade level tests.  In one neighborhood where we lived every single family but one did the test or had me give it.  (I offer to give it for them if they want me to do it instead, telling them that I'm practiced and it will just take me a minute, some of the parents are functionally illiterate and this gives them an easy way to not admit that.  I also give recommend various remedial materials but help parents who can't figure out how to teach on their own.)

 

I feel bad for anyone who is behind for whatever reason and help remediate everyone I can, I was just wondering what people thought the percentages were.

Edited October 22, 2017 by ElizabethB

[LMD]

I have met 2 homeschooling families that... raised my eyebrows. I have met hundreds of homeschooling families in the last decade. So 1-2%?

 

The two families, both had come out of being under-served in the school system. One was dealing with deep trauma, was already on social services radar, and quite frankly, I think mother was right to focus on healing for the kids. I gave them some resources and encouragement and a listening ear. Those kids aren't getting an optimal education right now, but they know that their mother will fight like a wild animal for love of them - that's better than what many get.

The second family... were told some hard truths, given some accountability, and seem to have lifted their game a bit. There were extra health/LD factors there that the schools had been unable to work with.

 

There has been other times when my initial impression wasn't positive, but time has allowed me to see a fuller picture and gain respect for their individual approach.

[Tanaqui]

Hard to say. It seems plausible to me that those who are really not educating their kids are probably not showing off their parenting either.

[OrganicJen]

I think what's hard about this is that I don't know of any public schools that educate to what I believe is the minimum standard anymore.

[ElizabethB]

I'm going to add some data.  Arkansas used to have what I thought was the pretty good law balancing freedom and accountability: you must test, the state paid for it, but there were no penalties and no minimum score.  They have dropped the testing requirement because the homeschoolers consistently did well, but I know a few families who it was a wake up call for, they upped their game after low scores.  This report is the average scores of homeschoolers, and since the requirements were so minimal, I didn't know anyone who didn't sign up and take the test.  

 

This report includes scores for 2008 - 2012

 

http://www.arkansased.gov/public/userfiles/Learning_Services/Charter%20and%20Home%20School/Home%20School-Division%20of%20Learning%20Services/2012_Home_School_Annual_Report.pdf

 

Here are even more years of testing results and the number of homeschoolers by county:

 

http://www.arkansased.gov/divisions/learning-services/home-school/home-school-reports

Edited October 22, 2017 by ElizabethB

[Carrie12345]

My minimums?  Common Core minimums?  WTM minimums?  Other minimums?

Year by year, or K-12 overview?

Skill or content?  Memorization or critical thinking?

[HomeAgain]

I chose other, because I haven't seen that with my own eyes here.  There are also not a whole lot of homeschoolers, and it's a high reg state. 

 

At our last home I'd put it closer to 5%, but I jumped ship out of company with those folks as soon as I could.  In one group it was the norm to be substantially behind, not do essential subjects because the child didn't want to (like math), and think handing a high schooler a stack of worksheets that took 10 minutes or less was an appropriate education and would get them to a diploma.  That was a very low reg state, no reporting or testing necessary, just a letter of intent and vague commitments.

 

But I've also lived in no-reg places where nearly everyone I knew was homeschooling for educational purposes.  The few that were not keeping up with bare minimums (like, my neighbor who confided it was just easier to let everyone play than to try to get a lesson in.  Her spouse was very much not on the same page with this), were very, very few and far between.

 

I do think regulations help homeschooling, or at least makes people think about what they're undertaking.

[regentrude]

I cannot vote, for two reasons:

1. I do not have a large enough representative sample of families where I have enough insight to judge the quality of the education.

 

2. In the families I do know, I am observing a startling discrepancy between language arts and math. All the homeschooled kids in my IRL circle are literate and read, often above grade level. And without exception, all are seriously behind in mathematics. None of the homeschooled highschoolers in my kids' group who have graduated completed four years of highschool level math. 

[LMD]

My kids' violin teacher is also a high school maths teacher (a good one) so I sometimes talk shop with her about maths standards. Dd, grade 6, noticed a year 8 test at her home one day and just started doodling the answers... the correct answers. I'm confident we're not behind.

 

I do see a lot of people not wanting to teach maths and just using MUS. Which is not to my standard but definitely at least the same standard as most schools, at least to 8th grade.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

No idea. I don't care, because the abused and neglected teen Hs'ed girls I've known do not care. They just want to know why their situation was allowed.

 

The children in schools who fail to learn, have more adults in their lives who try to teach them something. They have more people in their lives, period, but some of those people are also trained professionals who know something about trying to help children learn. The schoolchildren meet more people, and have more of a chance of glimpsing normalcy somewhere, than these homeschooled Cinderellas. They have access to a book at some point, and they have six hours respite from chores.

 

This may sound hopelessly radical, but I don't have an acceptable percentage for how many girls can be abused and neglected, with no other eyes upon them for their entire childhood. If the laws are permitting it, any percentage is too high.

[regentrude]

My kids' violin teacher is also a high school maths teacher (a good one) so I sometimes talk shop with her about maths standards. Dd, grade 6, noticed a year 8 test at her home one day and just started doodling the answers... the correct answers. I'm confident we're not behind.

 

I do see a lot of people not wanting to teach maths and just using MUS. Which is not to my standard but definitely at least the same standard as most schools, at least to 8th grade.

 

I am not surprised, because the standard math sequence in schools teaches fractions in 5th grade and then keeps students in a three year holding pattern, reviewing arithmetic with integers and fractions over and over and over again, until finally progressing to algebra in 9th grade (8th grade for "advanced" students). There is virtually no new material taught between 6th and 8th grade.

 

(I found this out the hard way when we had planned a sabbatical in Germany in DD's 6th grade year and I translated the curriculum for the math teacher to inquire which topics would be covered before our departure at Christmas, only to hear from the head of the math department that none of this would be covered before Jr high school.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Zero.

 

This may be because I surround myself with educated people.

 

This may be because this is a well educated part of the country in general.

 

I have heard of one family who were friends of a friend. But from reports, the poor education was a result of a much larger dysfunction in that family. So I know from at least that report that there are some homeschoolers in the area who wouldn’t meet minimum standards but I don’t know any personally.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited October 22, 2017 by Jean in Newcastle

[rocassie]

In the homeschool families I am around, I would say 1% possibly even less.  I'm not really sure that those that are not actively educating their children really utilize homeschooling resources (enrichment classes, co-op, etc.) 

 

I do know several, several families that have pulled their kids from school because their child/children were behind often do to learning disabilities and the families were not getting adequate support or resources from the school.  The children were already behind and then there is the learning curved for the homeschooling parent.  However, all these families are actively educating and are looking for support where they feel they are falling short.

 

Only one family I know is very blase about education, but their children are very early elementary so that may or may not change.  There is another family that struggles to homeschool.  Honestly the family has so many things on their plate and homeschooling is suffering.  This family homeschools for religious reasons and would not even consider other schooling options.  I'm not sure that their life will get any easier and I fear their children continuing to fall more and more behind.

[....]

Re girls not allowed to be educated - I have never met such a family, not even when I moved in the fundy homeschool circles. 

 

Yeah, me neither.  And we are around a lot of homeschoolers.  And we're in Texas.

 

Over the years, I've really only met maybe 2 families that probably weren't doing a very good job homeschooling.  The moms were overwhelmed and don't have control of the household...which means education wasn't taking a forefront in their day.

[LMD]

Re girls not allowed to be educated - I have never met such a family, not even when I moved in the fundy homeschool circles. Never. There is not, in my community, a crisis of girls who are not allowed to be educated.

Me either. I know some very fundy, home churching, former ATI following, dresses only, huge family living off grid, mennonite inspired families. Those girls are getting educated. A good education is one way these families 'stick it to the world.'

 

Honestly it's the airy fairy non-schoolers masquerading as unschoolers I see that worry me more... they generally either get it together and provide an amazing environment/opportunity or put the kids in school.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Re girls not allowed to be educated - I have never met such a family, not even when I moved in the fundy homeschool circles. Never. There is not, in my community, a crisis of girls who are not allowed to be educated.

 

This is probably because you don't live in the American Bible Belt, near large populations of Gothard/ATI families, who move in groups to low regulation states so that nobody knows their children aren't being Hs'ed legally. Also, if you are not connected to the families through hs'ing organizations or as a relative, there is no way you're knowing anything about their children. If you are an atheist, or some religion other than Protestant Christian, or have an LGBT person in your family, they will never allow their children to know you exist.

 

Even if you only know them thru church and hs'ing groups, they don't confess to each other that their children have no books, haven't been taken to a library in three years, and are teens with no knowledge of math beyond addition and subtraction. They do not talk about academics. The children are lied to about their education; I've known many children who had been told that they were years ahead of public schoolers.

 

Why won't hsers in different regions of this country, or in other countries, acknowledge this problem? Why do you always say it's not a big issue because you've never seen it? New Englanders are not going to see it. People in Portland, Oregon are not going to see it. That doesn't mean the girls in these groups in other areas are not suffering. And they are suffering because their parents are taking advantage of zero accountability homeschool laws.

[Sk8ermaiden]

Way too many. Between the ones who just don't bother to educate their kids at all, the ones whose children have obvious learning disabilities that the parents are in denial about and therefore not doing anything to help, and the ones who are #raisinghomemakers and all the math they ever do is grocery shopping and cooking, it feels like a lot. There is zero regulation here and while I love homeschooling and the freedom I have, I would not be sad to see some rules put in place. Or testing. Or something. 

[ElizabethB]

No idea. I don't care, because the abused and neglected teen Hs'ed girls I've known do not care. They just want to know why their situation was allowed.

 

The children in schools who fail to learn, have more adults in their lives who try to teach them something. They have more people in their lives, period, but some of those people are also trained professionals who know something about trying to help children learn. The schoolchildren meet more people, and have more of a chance of glimpsing normalcy somewhere, than these homeschooled Cinderellas. They have access to a book at some point, and they have six hours respite from chores.

 

This may sound hopelessly radical, but I don't have an acceptable percentage for how many girls can be abused and neglected, with no other eyes upon them for their entire childhood. If the laws are permitting it, any percentage is too high.

 

I think one is too many, too.  

 

I also think one in the schools is too many, too.

 

Many of my students are so crippled they have absolutely no self worth.  My students all have very low self-esteem to one degree or another.  For many, it is crippling, it impacts their whole life.  Also, most of them were given remediation that didn't work in the schools, either more of the same with Reading Recovery, the same whole language based methods that failed them in the first place, or once a week OG methods that will take 10 years for them to be at grade level, they are designed for a true dyslexic student, not someone who can be quickly remediated with phonics and nonsense words.  

 

Here are some stories from Children of the Code, they have a whole series of videos talking about the shame from not being able to read well:

 

http://www.childrenofthecode.org/Tour/c3c/index.htm

 

They have access to books but they can't read them, and many of their parents don't understand that because of the subtle nature of functional illiteracy where they can read very low level things and know the most common 90% of words but have to guess at the rest.

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't know anyone locally that I would think was not educating to at least a minimum standard.  But then, there are very few of us around and we don't tend to communicate or share well.  There used to be a homeschooling group we were very active in and I would say ALL participants were working hard to achieve above a minimum standard.  Not all were as successful in their personal goals for their kids as others were but all were striving and striving hard.  Unfortunately, NON Academic issues among the parents destroyed our group.  Many put their kids back in PS for various reasons while others cut all contact with other homeschoolers so I have no idea what their situation is now.  I only have direct contact with a very limited number of IRL homeschoolers at this point.  Those few are still working very, very hard to achieve above a minimum standard for their kids.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think one is too many, too.

 

I also think one in the schools is too many, too.

 

Many of my students are so crippled they have absolutely no self worth. My students all have very low self-esteem to one degree or another. For many, it is crippling, it impacts their whole life. Also, most of them were given remediation that didn't work in the schools, either more of the same with Reading Recovery, the same whole language based methods that failed them in the first place, or once a week OG methods that will take 10 years for them to be at grade level, they are designed for a true dyslexic student, not someone who can be quickly remediated with phonics and nonsense words.

 

Here are some stories from Children of the Code, they have a whole series of videos talking about the shame from not being able to read well:

 

http://www.childrenofthecode.org/Tour/c3c/index.htm

 

They have access to books but they can't read them, and many of their parents don't understand that because of the subtle nature of functional illiteracy where they can read very low level things and know the most common 90% of words but have to guess at the rest.

One is too many for public schooled kids, too.

 

But even these very unfortunate students have some things my young acquaintances never had:

 

A school to attend, meaning both some semblance of a culture of learning AND respite from chores.

Someone who tried, daily, to teach them in the classroom.

Someone who tried to remediate their reading.

Classmates who were not being told the same cult lies.

You.

[ElizabethB]

Why won't hsers in different regions of this country, or in other countries, acknowledge this problem? Why do you always say it's not a big issue because you've never seen it? New Englanders are not going to see it. People in Portland, Oregon are not going to see it. That doesn't mean the girls in these groups in other areas are not suffering. And they are suffering because their parents are taking advantage of zero accountability homeschool laws.

 

That's why I asked the question.  I wanted to know what regions people were seeing this in and what people thought the numbers were.

 

As you've said, and I agree, even one is too many, but numbers are good, too.  I like numbers.  I used to work as a statistician.  I actually started out as a math tutor!  But, reading is more foundational, so I'm sticking with that for now. I keep hoping someday they will quit making remedial students faster than I can help them, though, but I'm still here 24 years later...

[mellifera33]

It's hard to say. Is the minimum standard based on work put in, or on results? My family, and most of the homeschoolers in our chosen hs community, are dealing with multiple diagnoses and LDs, and the results don't necessarily reflect the amount of educating that is happening. 

 

OTOH, there are local hs'sers who follow a particular philosophy of not forcing a kids to do anything they don't want to do. If they don't want to read, they don't have to learn--they'll pick it up eventually, and it will magically click. In their eyes, I'm some sort of obnoxious tiger mother for making my dyslexic kiddo decode lists of words if he doesn't feel like it. 

 

Overall, though, I think that most local hs'ers are doing a great job. The main hs group in our county is full of rigorous hs families who educate their kids broadly while following their interests. 

 

I think I'm in the same state as the OP. :)

[regentrude]

My kids scored higher on math and science than reading, I was so surprised at this on last year’s exam! 

 

That was outside the norm for a score distribution in our area though.

 

I am in a completely unregulated state. Homeschoolers never have to take any test, submit a portfolio, or undergo any type of evaluation. 

[Seeking Squirrels]

I don't know enough about what anyone else does to be able to make a judgement call. I haven't met anyone in a serious neglect or abuse situation (that I'm aware of) so it's likely that most are doing better than they would in PS. I really feel like the PS did a really poor job of it when DD went last year, so I guess that sets the bar pretty low academically for our area. 

[Lecka]

I didn't vote.

 

For non-relatives -- everyone I have ever met has been seeming to do a great job with their kids.

 

Then there are my relatives. My ILs moved once, didn't want to enroll my little BIL in school for various reasons, and they didn't do anything for about 2 years. For the first year my MIL was picking out a curriculum. For the second year she made self-deprecating comments about how she hadn't gotten around to opening the box. (Edit -- he was in high school, it would be different to me if he were a little kid.)

 

Another IL had been attending private school and it closed her sophomore year. A big group (it was a small Christian school) of kids were going to enroll in online high school together. It didn't work out and she didn't graduate school. She was supposed to do online school while her mom was at work and I don't think it was a good program, but at the time it seemed like a good program (this was in Colorado).

 

These aren't people who do any activities with homeschoolers so you would just have to know them somehow.

 

I have never homeschooled but everyone I have met through Bible Study, the library, the gym, the park, and childrens' activities has seemed to do very well. One of my old friends is homeschooling now and seems to do very well. Kids at my sister's church seem to do exceptionally well, too.

 

Edit: also kids I have known who switched into or out of public school has seemed to do well. Really -- every way my life has ever intersected with homeschoolers they have seemed to do a great job and have a good family situation, except for my ILs, and then it is two for two for things being pretty abysmal.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Lecka

[Mbelle]

I have not met anyone not meeting at least public school standards.  Even for fundamentalist ( i do live in the deep south bible belt).  

The only difference I have seen with very conservative fundies is that their daughters may not be as highly encouraged to go to college as their sons, but they are as educated as the sons through high school.  However, that would be the same if they went to school.  

Most people I meet in my area are going well beyond what is expected or required.

I live in a low moderate regulation state.  It's enough to keep people on track without meddling in your choices of curriculum or style of homeschooling.

[Meriwether]

At least one family I know in real life, maybe two. But I'm not sure. One family I was sure wasn't doing a good job, but their grown kids are fine and did fine on the ACT, too, a good bit higher than average.

 

I think the vast majority are fine or better than fine. I am okay with some kind of oversight, though, because some kids are falling between the cracks.

[Dmmetler]

Like Regentrude, I've seen mostly kids ahead on reading and knowledgeable about history, cultures, and humanities, but extremely weak in math and science. Which is really sad when it's a kid who likes math and science.

[Butter]

In my area, zero.  Every homeschooling family I know or have encountered here are educating very mindfully.  In my life, both as a homeschooled kid and a homeschooling mom, I have known exactly one family who weren't educating to a minimum standard.  They were proudly "organic radical homeschoolers" and eschewed anything remotely school-like.  The result was obvious and sad.

[Lucy the Valiant]

In our area, I don't know of anyone who isn't at least up to public school standards. I do see it and hear it on the national news occasionally (and flinch), but IRL? None that I know.

 

Of course, even in my highly-ranked-for-education state, our local town school publishes a 15% math proficiency rate, so there's that.

 

 

[G5052]

The vast majority in our area are doing fine. I agree that math is more of a concern than reading, but most I know take steps to address that.

 

I've had a handful at the community college who were clearly behind academically to the point that success in college was iffy, but I get students like that from public school too.

 

I am aware of two homeschooled drop-outs who never finished high school. That is even more of a concern. Both families were "unregistered" meaning that they never turned in paperwork at any time during homeschooling. I'm not sure what is going to happen to them down the road with no diploma.

[marbel]

I'm curious how people know so much about the performance of other homeschoolers?  When I was homeschooling, I had no idea how others were doing, unless someone specifically brought up a concern. Well, I always knew who was doing really well, because the parents of high achievers always made sure everyone knew about that, LOL.

 

BTW both my kids were either behind in math or not as advanced as they/I would have liked upon entering community college. One had to take development algebra (basically high school algebra and without college credit).  She was the only homeschooler in her class and was not the most behind of her fellow students, all of whom were straight out of high school. (No adults coming back to school after a break and needing refresher.)  I'm not saying it was OK that I didn't adequately prepare her for college math, just saying that it wasn't necessarily the fact that she was homeschooled that put her in that position.

[regentrude]

I'm curious how people know so much about the performance of other homeschoolers?  When I was homeschooling, I had no idea how others were doing, unless someone specifically brought up a concern. Well, I always knew who was doing really well, because the parents of high achievers always made sure everyone knew about that, LOL.

 

Sometimes, moms share what they are doing. And the teens talk to one another. My DS had a pretty good idea what his homeschooled friends did.

And then, you have the graduated 18 y/os who come to ask college advice and are shocked to realize that their "college prep" curriculum fell far short of what is required for entrance to a public college. Or who tell you that they never went beyond prealgebra and have no idea how to go about continuing their education.

Edited October 22, 2017 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

I really don't see any neglected. The public school bar in my town is very low and I don't know anyone I would say is far worse off than the schools produce.

 

Now, I see plenty that I believe are bright and spend very little time in school and I can get judgy thinking about how much more the students are capable of. Bare minimum, yes. But not neglect.

 

I don't see any that seem completely uninterested in their children's learning or whose students could not do fine entering cc after graduation.

 

When I was a young homeschooler I was often judgemental of the older moms and felt like their middle and high school students were not doing enough. I had older homeschoolers I pegged as slackers. I proceeded to see all those kids graduate and go on to college and do well or get settled into decent jobs. So I learned that homeschooling can take many forms and still be successful and I learned I really couldn't judge from small talk what was happening in anyone else's home.

 

I just haven't met anyone who claimed homeschooling yet was not doing anything at all. My friend who is in social work has those stories though 😟

[73349]

I pretty much have no idea how other people's kids are doing academically, regardless of their schooling choice, except I know that the neighbors' 6yo is reading pretty decently because she reads things she sees in my house. Couldn't vote.

[J-rap]

I had to put "other" because I've never met a homeschooler who wasn't learning at least the minimum required.  We currently live in a small town in the upper Midwest, and over the years I've probably met every homeschooling family in our area (unless they are purposely living very privately and never leave their farm, which is certainly possible!).  That's maybe 50 or so families over the years.  

 

Even the families I met who seemed to be mostly un-schooling and not too serious about learning got all their kids to college or some other career path where they did very well and now have very good full-time jobs.  

 

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by J-rap

[SparklyUnicorn]

No clue since I've never observed nor kept track of what they are doing or not doing.

[Arcadia]

My kids are not meeting state standards for art, music, PE and social studies whether it is pre-common core (1997 standards) or common core standards.

 

If you are restricting to language arts and maths, the only homeschoolers I know in real life aren’t behind. The ones my secular neighbors know in real life are all homeschooling because the kids are accelerated. So a very skew in real life sample.

 

A friend knows families homeschooling for religious reasons who use a private Christian school’s umbrella program for homeschoolers and the homeschoolers are held to the same standards as the brick and mortar students in that school and can do PE, band, choir, community service and sports with that school’s students.

[creekland]

I chose other because I've no idea...

 

I hope with our state regulations (PA) that it's not very high.

 

I have seen some get enrolled in our high school who have been super educated at home and others who are definitely not up to where they should be for their ability.  I suspect that runs the gamut - a bell curve like many others.  But who knows about those I never see?  My guess would still be a bell curve, but it's just a guess.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I often wonder what people assume about me.  I come off as pretty laid back with school stuff and rarely talk about what I do.  Truth is though, I chain my kids to a desk and make them work for 10 hours a day.

 

:lol:

 

Ok not exactly.  But really I have no clue what people assume about me.  I don't talk academics with anyone outside of the internet.  Nobody ever asks either. 

[umsami]

When we were homeschooling 4th grade with DS1, he went to take the FCAT (standardized test) offered for 4th grade homeschoolers at the county office.  I struck up a conversation with another Mom.  Seeing as we were both homeschooling, I asked her about curricula she liked.  She told me that her child had used one of those books from Sam's Club/Costco as his curriculum this year, and it had been so affordable and easy.  At first I thought she was joking.  She was not.  That was all she used, along with a trip or two to the library.  To me, that would not meet my minimum requirements for homeschooling.  I have no idea how her kid did on the exam, though.

 

My guess is that most Hive members aren't going to run into the complete slackers.

[FaithManor]

For me, I had to answer on that high end. The reason for this is I live in a not very diverse area where the Homeschool groups and many homeschoolers do so from a very strict anti-education stance. The child is not home because the parent intends to pursue education but because the pastor said your kid was going to have a one way ticket to hell if he went to the PS or a private school, or read secular books, or was around science people (and literally these are people who still think the kind of Charlotte Mason science studies that are awesome for 8 year olds is plenty of science for 18 year olds), and where new young adults have still not had "the talk" or been given a book, but instead will find a letter inside their suitcases when they get to the honeymooners on room. This is the area that has two homeschool groups who asked me to bring my dissecting equipment and do a class with their kids, and then heard through the grapevine that we let our kids read Harry Potter so I was disinvited because I might influence the children to witchcraft. These are families in which purchasing no new curriculum past 7th or 8th grade is normal, online resources are forbidden, and the library is bad because of the bad books there. SWB is considered a heretic, and Dr. Jay Wile was too edgy and forward thinking for them. So we are talking about only math and English from say CLE or ACE until 7th or 8th grade, science and history only to 5th and then the general philosophy after that is "if they are working with me or dad, they are learning enough". Generally the kids are not exposed to enough to pass the GED.

 

We have been called liberals because our kids do high school work, take the SAT or ACT, go to college. According to my mom, the pastor of her church had an entire sermon today about it not being wise to let kids learn too much, and parents are heretics if they let their adult children attend secular universities and colleges or enroll them in the PS or use an online secular program.

 

So it is pretty bad here. Some families have been turned in to authorities and were actually forced to do better or enroll their children in PS or private. In the case of the family here in town, her eldest was eleven and she had not attempted to teach him to read yet. She enrolled him in a small, parochial school because as it turns out she was only herself homeschooled - loosely using the term here - until 6th grade. Once there was intervention, she realized she was functionally illiterate and now attends an adult literacy program at night. This was one of those rare times when intervention was helpful. So often around here it isn't.

 

Unschooling is actually illegal unless implemented in a VERY deliberate way with specific subjects being covered. The state statute mandates that the parent provide a formal education program that covers math, English, writing, spelling, literature, reading comprehension, social studies/ civics, history, and science. Unschooling as a deliberately thought out, planned, and executed program can cover this. However, often in our area unschooling is not educating and violates the law in a big way.

 

To let you know how bad it is, there has been some discussion of making some accountability laws which of course was met with pretty stout opposition. So the statute was amended to say that the state does not require but highly recommends that the parent assign some homework, give tests, keep grades, and if the child does this through grade 12, issue a diploma. None of which guarantees the child got an education, but it is kind of sad that they even felt they had to amend the code to say it in the hopes of persuading parents to kind of prep their kids for some sort of job training in adulthood.

 

The Amish get a free pass here. I don't appreciate it. The local Amish school only goes to sixth grade, meets four days per week from November through March. The secret they do not think we local English know is that their roofers, barn builders, etc. hire non Amish to write their estimates and do their math, draw the plans, etc. The reason it is so bad here is because a couple of kids went on Rumspringa and didn't come back. They stopped Rumspringa and dropped 7th and 8th grade. Since the kids do not begin learning English until 3rd grade, they 100% functionally illiterate in English when they exit school which also helps guarantee they don't stray. Since I believe in child rights, I consider that to be educational abuse for children who are neurotypical.

 

The thing is, I do not put forth my local PS as a paragon of academic virtue. Quite the opposite. The difference is that there is access to the material, there are books, quite a few as a matter of fact on a wide variety of topics, school supplies are provided for those that do not have them, someone stands up and presents the material, there is exposure. At least there is that. Unfortunately, I see a bunch of homeschoolers who do not even do that. So yes. Every day is worse than the PS and that should not be something that is sanctioned. Kids are people too!

 

For what is worth the minimum high school graduation requirements are:

 

Four credits of English

Four Math and must include algebra 1, 2, and geometry but the algebra 2 can be met by taking a technical class that uses algebra 2 concepts

Three social science which must include US History and geography, World History and geography, civics and economics.

 

Three of science and physical science no longer counts. Must include Biology, chemistry, physics, anatomy, Ag science, or a comp sci class but not a computer literacy class such as one that only covers the use of programs like Word for Windows or Accel. Schools are supposed to provide a programming element or a hardware/electrical type course. Some career courses can be the third science such as CNA and EMT or Vet Tech courses. So then the student would have Biology and Chem or some combo of those.

 

One credit of visual, performing, or applied art.

One credit of PE of which half could be credit for playing a sport, marching band, etc.

Two credits of foreign language. A credit for 8th grade Spanish if offered is allowed.

So the bar for diplomas has been raised.

 

The GED covers algebra and geometry, number operation and sense, measurement, data analysis, statistics, probability, physical science, life science, earth and space science, poetry, drama, prose fiction before 1920 through present, non fiction, visual and performing arts reviews (all of this I assume is reading comprehension similar to SAT or ACT, read and answer questions multiple choice), workplace and community documents, US and World History, Geography, Civics and Government, and Exonomics. None of the questions are supposed to be tougher than tenth grade. I have not looked at any practice exams so can't give specifics.

 

This would seem to indicate that an 8th grade basic education will not be enough for the GED. But of course a lot depends on how stout the 8th grade education is. Rigorous would make it, loosey goose, probably not.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens when these regs are reviewed in 2020.

[Seasider]

"What's minimum?" is a good question. A better poll question might be what percentage of homeschool students that I know personally do not appear to be being taught to his/her full potential.

 

For me, I could guess that's upwards of 30%. But it's impossible for me to know what learning challenges each of the behind-standard-level kids face, I consider that private information. I'm simply not capable of judging rightly.

 

I have, however, met a number of nonschoolers in my day. They are definitely out there. It's a sad thing to meet a high school age kid who desires to go on to college or trade school, but knows s/he is significantly lacking in the basic 3R's and has no confidence to move ahead independently.

[Wheres Toto]

I'm not super involved with homeschool groups but I don't know that any of the homeschoolers I know don't educate to a minimum standard.  I'm sure they're out there, I'm in a no regulation state and we do have at least one unschool co-op in the area, plus an unschooling convention.   But, most of the homeschoolers I know are because they are in my 4-H group, were in my old 4-H group or are taking my science classes.  I doubt they would be involved in any of that if they were uninterested in educating their kids.

[regentrude]

"What's minimum?" is a good question. A better poll question might be what percentage of homeschool students that I know personally do not appear to be being taught to his/her full potential.

 

That is an incredibly tricky question to answer. First, judging a person's potential is very difficult, even for the people closest to the kids, and second, it is also a question whether it is desirable to teach a kid to their full potential.

 

My DD graduated at age 17 with 32 college credits, fluent in two and proficient in a third language. We did math through multivariable calculus. But we could have spent more time on school. We could have schooled through summers. I could not have let her quit the piano. She could have been able to master a fourth foreign language. Perhaps she could have completed more college classes. Gone away to early college. I am pretty sure that I did not challenge her to her full potential, and I am happy I left her room for life without pushing her to the limit.

 

My DS is as intelligent as his sister, but a minimalist. He only completed 15 college credits and graduated at 18. He got to quit the piano after only three years. He is only fluent in two languages and dropped the third. I almost certainly did not educate him to his full potential, but chose to lower the expectations to only a  normal rigorous college prep education, for the sake of our relationship and to give him space to pursue his interests.

So according to your criterion, 100% of the students in my homeschool were not taught to their full potential. I consider my homeschool still pretty darned successful.

Edited October 23, 2017 by regentrude

[FaithManor]

[NM

Edited October 23, 2017 by FaithManor

[ElizabethB]

For me, I had to answer on that high end. The reason for this is I live in a not very diverse area where the Homeschool groups and many homeschoolers do so from a very strict anti-education stance. The child is not home because the parent intends to pursue education but because the pastor said your kid was going to have a one way ticket to hell if he went to the PS or a private school, or read secular books, or was around science people (and literally these are people who still think the kind of Charlotte Mason science studies that are awesome for 8 year olds is plenty of science for 18 year olds), and where new young adults have still not had "the talk" or been given a book, but instead will find a letter inside their suitcases when they get to the honeymooners on room. This is the area that has two homeschool groups who asked me to bring my dissecting equipment and do a class with their kids, and then heard through the grapevine that we let our kids read Harry Potter so I was disinvited because I might influence the children to witchcraft. These are families in which purchasing no new curriculum past 7th or 8th grade is normal, online resources are forbidden, and the library is bad because of the bad books there. SWB is considered a heretic, and Dr. Jay Wile was too edgy and forward thinking for them. So we are talking about only math and English from say CLE or ACE until 7th or 8th grade, science and history only to 5th and then the general philosophy after that is "if they are working with me or dad, they are learning enough". Generally the kids are not exposed to enough to pass the GED.

 

We have been called liberals because our kids do high school work, take the SAT or ACT, go to college. According to my mom, the pastor of her church had an entire sermon today about it not being wise to let kids learn too much, and parents are heretics if they let their adult children attend secular universities and colleges or enroll them in the PS or use an online secular program.

 

 

That sounds pretty bad.  It seems from the replies that there are a few regional pockets of bad.  

 

Are these private Christian schools?  None of the Christian homeschoolers I have known have ever said anything negative about private Christian schools. (Generally, they just complain that they are too expensive for them.)  And, I have known folks who don't read Harry Potter or use anything other than a plain hair clip and always wear dresses... 

[EMS83]

No clue!  I'd have to know lots of other homeschoolers to know that.  

[Seasider]

Not being taught to one's potential isn't just a homeschool issue. I guarantee you there are thousands of schooled kids out there right now who are not being taught to their potential.

 

I also meet schooled children who are significantly lacking in the 3R's. They form the basis of my business, and trust me, I'm turning away clients.

Oh, I absolutely believe you! It's a problem not exclusive to home schoolers.

 

Saddest are the totally neglected ones, but again, that's something that can be found in traditional schools also. Thing is, many homeschoolers are pulling kids out of traditional schools with the claim it can be done better at home. Yes, there are other reasons such as bullying, etc, but for those claiming the ability to offer a superior education through homeschooling, well, they need to at least be striving with the effort to do so.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Seasider

[MinivanMom]

It depends on what you define as a minimum standard. If the definition is a child being literate and having exposure to math, then I would guess that about 10-15% of those I know are not meeting that standard - primarily unschoolers who are pretty vocal about not teaching their kids to read and not wanting them to go to college. All of the academic homeschoolers and religious homeschoolers seem to take literacy and basic math (through pre-algebra) pretty seriously.

 

If your definition of a minimum standard is a high school education that has prepared you to enter community college, then I would guess that 30% or more of those I know are not meeting that standard. It seems to be pretty common in our area for families to finish pre-algebra by 8th or 9th grade and then just let their kids attempt to unsuccessfully self-study algebra. I have had a lot of moms tell me about the difficulties their kids have encountered trying to transition to the community college - lots of struggles in math and science.

 

I have never met a neurotypical public school student who was not meeting this basic standard (literate & graduating high school ready for community college). Never. Elementary kids here go to public school everyday where they get daily literacy and math instruction. Kids who are not reading on grade level get referred immediately for reading intervention with intensive phonics. High school kids must complete algebra, geometry, algebra 2, biology, and physical science in order to graduate. They also have to pass end-of-course exams in English, Algebra, and Biology to prove they've mastered the material in order to graduate. The only high schoolers I have ever known who did not meet those standards were severely autistic (nonverbal) or had other cognitive delays that resulting in an IEP setting different (achievable) goals for them. But I believe they also get an alternative diploma showing that they did not meet the state standard.

 

In our area, the schools are doing a good job. Not as good as some homeschoolers on this board, but very far above average. 

I answer this based on my experiences homeschooling for more than a decade in an educated, urban east coast area. We have always belonged to the big secular support group as well as knowing a fair amount of religious homeschoolers through our own (non-evangelical) church. I don't know a lot of radical unschoolers (they have their own exclusive support group), and I don't know a lot of evangelicals (they have their own co-ops with statements of faith).

 

ETA: A lot of the homeschoolers in our area choose to homeschool as a reaction to our public schools which they see as being too rigorous and developmentally inappropriate. Some of the suburban high schools have gone beyond rigorous to an unhealthy level of academic competition. So I think we may have a different type of homeschooler in general. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by MinivanMom