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My McJudgy obnoxious observation and question


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What's with the ads?

#501 ChocolateReign

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 08:37 PM

I know nothing about he statistics about rape reports being proven true or false, but I don't think it's comparable to robbery or murder, because in the case of rape, we know that the vast majority of victims knew the perp.  Therefore if an arrest / conviction did not occur in those cases, what would be the reasons?  Cases where the perp could not be identified or found would be the small minority, so the rest would be what?  Victim recanted or not enough evidence to charge / indict / convict?

 

Prosecutors sometimes have their own biases and won't prosecute on behalf of women who they think got what they deserved.  Others sometimes don't believe they have enough evidence to successfully prosecute or don't think the victim is sympathetic enough.  There are also some who would like to prosecute but know their judges and jury pools well enough to understand that a conviction is unlikely and they don't want to put the victim through the trial.  Finally, sometimes victims (and their families) decide going through a trial is not worth the expected outcome.

FWIW, when you see child molesters get soft sentences it is often for one, or a combination of, the factors above.


Edited by ChocolateReign, 24 October 2017 - 10:18 PM.


#502 SKL

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 10:34 PM

 

In the case Janeway linked, the guy not only admitted having sex with a girl who was both drunk and under the age of consent, but the medical examination showed lacerations and abrasions "consistent with the use of force."  The grand jury still decided not to prosecute him. Apparently the claim of a wealthy local sports star that sex with a drunk underage girl was consensual weighed far more heavily than the girl's statement that he forced himself on her after she repeatedly told him to stop, her mother's statement that the girl was very upset when she came home, and the doctor's statement that there was physical evidence of trauma. 

 

The fact that it wasn't prosecuted isn't proof that it didn't happen, it's just proof of how totally screwed up our system is.

 

I think the linked story also indicated that she had sent texts to a friend prior to the encounter that indicated she intended to entrap him.  Just for the benefit of those who did not open the link.  I don't know him or her and I wasn't there, so who knows how much of it is true.



#503 Corraleno

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 05:02 AM

I think the linked story also indicated that she had sent texts to a friend prior to the encounter that indicated she intended to entrap him.  Just for the benefit of those who did not open the link.  I don't know him or her and I wasn't there, so who knows how much of it is true.

 
The lawyer's claim that she suggested to her friends she wanted to "hook up" (the lawyer's words) with the guy was one of many many claims in a lawsuit he filed against the girl's family that not only blatantly slut-shamed the girl, but also her mother, based on nothing but hearsay and rumors, all of which were unequivocally denied by the girl and her family. Apparently in Texas, statements made in pleadings are exempt from defamation lawsuits, even if they are completely false, so this allowed the Romo family to totally smear and humiliate the girl's family with impunity.
 
It also served as a warning to other girls who might be thinking of coming forward, since once Ryan was arrested rumors began swirling that she was not his first victim. The pleading the Romo's lawyer filed was described by another lawyer in the area as "douchey, lewd and like someone from Dance Moms wrote it." In fact, it was considered so nasty and inappropriate that a prominent lawyer in the area offered to take the girl's case pro bono; a countersuit was filed and the matter was settled. 
 
The boy's family is extremely wealthy and well-connected. His father is CEO of a restaurant chain and his mother is CFO of a major airline; their annual income is over a million dollars.  In a highly unusual move, the DA allowed the defendant's lawyer to present inadmissible polygraph evidence to the grand jury, while preventing the girl from introducing the medical evidence. Strange. 
 
The Romo family's smear campaign caused the victim to be bullied to the point that she was forced to transfer to another school — and then the baseball coach at the new school chose to tell his entire team about Romo's version of events, so she was bullied at the new school as well. Rich kid ended up playing baseball for Baylor, with no damage to his scholastic or career prospects.

#504 Scarlett

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 07:49 AM

Somebody posted that women were more objectified in the Middle East and India. I can't find anything to back that up, and having traveled there, I do not think it is any worse than the US.

I did find two interesting articles. The first is just on the objectification of women and girls mainly in the U.S. It's a sobering read. https://www.unicefus...and-girls/30366

The second is about the marginalization of women in country music...which is a more recent trend. https://newrepublic....m-country-music


These are great articles. Ty for sharing.

#505 Bluegoat

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:18 AM

And this is way off topic, but I wonder what % of false rape accusations start with a guy saying "no" to sex or other intimacy / relationship.

 

Is our society into punishing men who say no?

 

Some might, but I think there are a fair number that aren't maliciously false - they are made in good faith, but aren't an assault.  I'm not sure that sort of thing is counted as a false accusation though.

 

Largely I think assault and false accusation are separate.  Where they come together is if the legal or social culture around one affect the incidence or approach to the other.

 

At the moment, I thin the cultural approach to casual sex/clubbing culture tends to create all kinds of contradictions that men and women have to respond to in rather scattered, bizarre ways, and which ends up endangering both.  The thing I see as potential solutions, though, don't seem to be very culturally acceptable.


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#506 Bluegoat

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:21 AM

^^^This.

 

There are also false allegations of child sexual abuse, but the appropriate response to those is not to assume every kid who says they were abused is lying.

 

But they know how important it is to be extremely careful about investigating this kind of allegation, if you don't want problems. It's not like false conclusions are only bad for the people involved, they tend to create systemic problems that can be out of proportion to their numbers.



#507 goldberry

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:22 AM

 I think rape is a terrible horrible thing, but I absolutely would not want someone convicted based on one person's testimony with no other evidence.

 

I agree with you.  But to then draw the conclusion that all those accusations are false, as another poster has done, is hugely inaccurate and ignores the fact that the nature of the crime often makes it difficult to prove in court,  It's the same set of reasons that harm done to children stays hidden so often and for so long. It's hard to prove what goes on behind closed doors.

 

But then you also hear about cases where they ignored medical evidence because the victim was viewed as somehow deserving or responsible, and that is what tells us there is still a problem in the justice system.

 

Also, while I totally agree false accusations happen and hurt those involved, this very thread reveals the core problem of bringing them up every single time rape is discussed. (And yes, that does happen, including my IRL conversations.)  Most of us agree that they exist but are not as prevalent.  But at least one poster has used that as a reasoning that *most* rape/assault accusations are false.  How many others out there are doing the same thing?  How would that make a woman feel if she was assaulted, knowing that half the people out there would assume she was "probably" lying, exaggerating, or just trying to excuse herself?  Because many women already assume that, which is why they don't bother reporting.  


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#508 goldberry

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:27 AM

I'll be honest... if I was assaulted, I would not want to report it unless I had an airtight case.  That's wrong, because it lets predators off the hook.  But why would a woman put herself through that with the odds being what they are?

 

In that sense, society making a bigger deal out of false accusations than they actually *are* by the numbers contributes to that. Especially when people start assuming that every woman who doesn't win in court was lying.


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#509 Bluegoat

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:33 AM

I know nothing about the case you mentioned so I'm not saying anything about it, but in other cases, if the evidence is only "he said, she said" then the accused is presumed innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, which is difficult with only one witness. I think rape is a terrible horrible thing, but I absolutely would not want someone convicted based on one person's testimony with no other evidence.

 

It's very tricky.

 

It often seems to come down to who seems more credible.

 

If the girl is perceived as slutty, it might well be the boy who seems credible.

 

If the boy is black, and the girl white, it's probably her.

 

And so on.

 

Then, if they or witnesses were drunk or high, their testimony is worth a lot less.

 

It's hard to see how to get away from these things.


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#510 Bluegoat

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:41 AM

I agree with you.  But to then draw the conclusion that all those accusations are false, as another poster has done, is hugely inaccurate and ignores the fact that the nature of the crime often makes it difficult to prove in court,  It's the same set of reasons that harm done to children stays hidden so often and for so long. It's hard to prove what goes on behind closed doors.

 

But then you also hear about cases where they ignored medical evidence because the victim was viewed as somehow deserving or responsible, and that is what tells us there is still a problem in the justice system.

 

Also, while I totally agree false accusations happen and hurt those involved, this very thread reveals the core problem of bringing them up every single time rape is discussed. (And yes, that does happen, including my IRL conversations.)  Most of us agree that they exist but are not as prevalent.  But at least one poster has used that as a reasoning that *most* rape/assault accusations are false.  How many others out there are doing the same thing?  How would that make a woman feel if she was assaulted, knowing that half the people out there would assume she was "probably" lying, exaggerating, or just trying to excuse herself?  Because many women already assume that, which is why they don't bother reporting.  

 

I think they actually get brought up for totally different reasons than people assume.  

 

Somehow people think the idea is "well, there are false allegations, so it's equal".

 

Usually though I think people are suggesting that false allegations become a problem because of a particular approach or situation, and that specifically is the issue.

 

So - I've seen people say for example that assault victims should be believed as a matter of course, and that police investigations should work on tat basis.  Well, probably people who say that are a bit naive, but the potential there to create a situation that someone could exploit is pretty significant - there are good reasons it doesn't work tat way.  Or the rules you see at some universities - they are just designed to create problems, but you see people at times argue to have them adopted into law.  



#511 goldberry

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 10:27 AM

 

 

Usually though I think people are suggesting that false allegations become a problem because of a particular approach or situation, and that specifically is the issue.

 

I don't disagree with that, but do you see the "side-effect" when it is brought up as part of the rape conversation?  You've got some people who really start to believe it IS equal (we've seen that right here, so yes it does happen), on top of sending the message to women that they may as well not even report because no one is going to believe me.  


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#512 Bluegoat

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 11:38 AM

I don't disagree with that, but do you see the "side-effect" when it is brought up as part of the rape conversation?  You've got some people who really start to believe it IS equal (we've seen that right here, so yes it does happen), on top of sending the message to women that they may as well not even report because no one is going to believe me.  

 

Yeah, I think that can happen with a lot of things.  Not least because people don't always articulate things well.

 

But what's the solution?

 

Not to bring up what is a real problem, or push against it?

 

I think that might have the effect of making it even more visible, both in the denial and the argument that ensues.  And then we've created a kind of polarized set of paradigms where people choose sides.

 

I think a better idea is actually to talk about these things with some level of nuance, and realize that often, many things which are in tension are true at the same time.  Or sometimes, there are interdependencies that mean we will have to accept compromises to the effects we'd like to see.

 

Fighting against an idea often has the perverse effect of giving it energy.



#513 Bluegoat

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 11:55 AM

No, I'm not "fine with those things". But if you really want to help our society move past sexualizing teenagers you should probably stop sexualizing teenagers by being McJudgy about the length of their dresses.

 

 

Because she likes how she looks in it. Why do you like sleeveless tops? Why do you like dresses that show off your waistline? Because you like how you look in them.

Some of the things you are saying about girls who wear these dresses is downright mean.

 

 

 

These two statements to me are just a kind of libertarian view of cause and effect.

 

Which is made especially odd because they seem to reflect a social argument being made about assault.

 

Why people like things is not random chance.  It's shaped by culture.  If the culture is sexualized around women's fashion - is this even a question? - then individuals can be affected by that even if that is not their intent.  This is a super-common argument in feminism so I am not sure why it would be obscure in this context.

 

Quill was concerned about the dresses not because she was sexualizing young girls - but because she thought that the fashion culture was sexualizing them.

 

Turning a blind eye to that will in no way stop them from being sexualized.

 

There is room to have differing opinions on this, on how to manage it, but to turn that concern into some kind of claim that people are actually ok with reducing women to sexual objects is a little over the top.  


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#514 SKL

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 12:03 PM

Right - why should my mentioning X prevent another person from continuing the discussion about Y?  If it is a distraction to those discussing Y, that seems to be an issue with the Y people's debate skills.  If X is not relevant to Y then either ignore or briefly acknowledge X and finish what you were saying about Y.

 

Where I see it as appropriate to bring up X is where a person is going overboard on Y and crossing boundaries.  The person brings up X to say, "don't go there, this is a boundary you Y people need to respect."  There is no need to respond other than to be respectful of that boundary.  Yet someone will feel the need to respond in a defensive or combative way.

 

To imply that bringing up X is wrong because some people may get distracted from Y is not fair to the importance of X (boundary, factual integrity, whatever) an also is illogical.

 

Furthermore, I'm not sure how long everyone needs to be quiet and let Y play out.  I mean we all agree that rape is a horrible crime, it happens way too much, justice is extremely imperfect, victims suffer at all stages of it, and we should do what we can to reduce or prevent it.  It is pretty much impossible to believe that anyone on this board needs to be convinced of that, or that the mention of false accusations is going to make any of us forget the magnitude of the rape problem.  There is no expectation AFAIK that a discussion on the chat board must remain on "rape is bad" once the rape topic is brought into a thread.



#515 amsunshine

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 01:19 PM

OP -- as a mom of 2 dds in high school, I do find shopping for semi-formal dresses to be frustrating at times in terms of the short length of the dresses these days.  It does seem like the dresses keep getting shorter and shorter -- some literally appear as if they would barely cover the booty.  It would seem these shorter lengths would not only be uncomfortable and self-distracting (in terms of trying to keep the skirts down all the time) but also, just plain cold!  Not only that, but I've seen some at Forever 21 that look like just bikinis with a mesh overlay.  Oy.  Oh well -- to each her own.  I just ordered dresses for my dds for winter formal, so I've been looking around a lot recently.

 

eta:  Here's an example of a dress I personally think is adorable but way too short for comfort.  It's 29 inches long, which is pretty darn short, especially if one is not short waisted -- my girls are not.  They tend to be longer waisted, which makes short dresses appear even shorter on them than shorter waisted girls.  But anyway, if a girl could feel comfortable in this without feeling paranoid about accidentally flashing anyone on the dance floor or otherwise, right on!  This dress is super cute.  I wouldn't choose it for my daughters, though, mostly because I don't want them to be preoccupied with keeping their skirt down at all times.


Edited by amsunshine, 25 October 2017 - 01:59 PM.

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#516 LMD

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 02:40 PM

SKL - if we're going to address the problem we need to be able to name the problem. If one class with more power is constantly assaulting the subordinate class (and weaker members of their own class), then it is harmful to continually bring up the miniscule deviation from this hierarchy.

As a general rule, men are the ones doing the raping. As a general rule, women are not lying about it. Statistics overwhelmingly support this.

Do exceptions occur, yes, and individually I have sympathy for the falsely accused and hope they are exonerated. Exceptions don't change the rule though and to focus on the exceptions - bringing it up every single discussion is focusing on it - gives it a higher level of importance on par with the rule. Humans have 2 legs, but some people are born with only one or have an accident so you can't say that humans, as a rule, have two legs! It's maddening!

This is a systemic, cultural problem. Individual anecdotes need to be viewed in context.

I don't love everything about this article but it is pretty good in talking about the actual incidents of false accusations.

https://qz.com/98076...pe-accusations/
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#517 Pam in CT

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 02:53 PM

I do think that objectification is a problem and should be part of the conversation when we step back to look at society as a whole. I think that it is one ingredient of a very complex souffle. 

 

The purity thing is a very interesting question, and I do believe that there has been an unintended consequence from the Christian movement and attempts in purity related matters that has moved us in the wrong direction. I was guilty of being sucked up into that years ago.

 

I can very much credit the conversations on these boards as being part of what started opening my eyes as to how some of the beliefs that i was perpetuating were indeed harmful. These were very shallow ideas that had been thrust upon me as part of the conservative culture I have existed in just by virtue of the friends I chose in my early twenties. I never thought them through. It was sort of like having an identity handed to you. "These are all of the values, beliefs, and opinions that come with your identity as a _________ "(fill in the blank with conservative, christian, homeschooler....whatever).

 

Now, I don't know what the heck I am  :confused1: .  In the last 5 years, I have done a complete 180 on my understanding of these matters. I ended up in a position of needing to testify against the husband half of the couple that was our best friend/s of 13ish years. He was also a spiritual leader in our church and worked in my ministry.This couple was a large part of the molding in the above-mentioned identity. The charges were of a sexual nature involving a tween girl in our church and in my ministry! It rocked my world to find out what was going on and all that I had actively ignored and explained away. He was convicted, will be on the registry, but will be out of jail with one year served (on probation). 

 

I bring this up to say that I have seen the system at work. I know what she had to go through just to get her story out. I know how it changed things (even for me as a bystander because our homeschooling community is a small world and I "took sides"). 

 

We have to keep talking so that more women, more moms will be challenged to evaluate their opinions in light of the statistics and will change the narrative for the next generation. I did and I am grateful to have had that opportunity. My husband's understanding has shifted as well, and we actually parent our dd different as a result. 

 

Thank you, forum friends.

 

 

Thank you, Tammy, first and foremost for standing with this young person, and also for sharing this with us.


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#518 SKL

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 03:25 PM

SKL - if we're going to address the problem we need to be able to name the problem. If one class with more power is constantly assaulting the subordinate class (and weaker members of their own class), then it is harmful to continually bring up the miniscule deviation from this hierarchy.

As a general rule, men are the ones doing the raping. As a general rule, women are not lying about it. Statistics overwhelmingly support this.

Do exceptions occur, yes, and individually I have sympathy for the falsely accused and hope they are exonerated. Exceptions don't change the rule though and to focus on the exceptions - bringing it up every single discussion is focusing on it - gives it a higher level of importance on par with the rule. Humans have 2 legs, but some people are born with only one or have an accident so you can't say that humans, as a rule, have two legs! It's maddening!

This is a systemic, cultural problem. Individual anecdotes need to be viewed in context.

I don't love everything about this article but it is pretty good in talking about the actual incidents of false accusations.

https://qz.com/98076...pe-accusations/

 

Not only name the problem, but also have an understanding as to a common definition.  And when someone tries to define it to include every time a male has sex with a female who has been drinking (or similar overreach), the sanity checkers are going to come out.  And that should neither surprise nor dismay anyone.

 

And then someone gets angry about the reminder that women can and do consent to unadvisable sex, and posts comments that exceed the bounds of rationality, with predictable results.

 

I understand that rape is an emotional subject and maybe it defies calm discussion.  But on a rational level, it does not deserve special deference on a general chat board such as this.



#519 LMD

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 03:29 PM

Not only name the problem, but also have an understanding as to a common definition. And when someone tries to define it to include every time a male has sex with a female who has been drinking (or similar overreach), the sanity checkers are going to come out. And that should neither surprise nor dismay anyone.

And then someone gets angry about the reminder that women can and do consent to unadvisable sex, and posts comments that exceed the bounds of rationality, with predictable results.

I understand that rape is an emotional subject and maybe it defies calm discussion. But on a rational level, it does not deserve special deference on a general chat board such as this.


The bolded tells me you didn't bother reading the article.

Btw- please stop calling women hysterical and irrational for asking you to view the facts as they are actually born out statistically.
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#520 Ravin

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 04:24 PM

Anyone in need of a counterpoint to the sexualization of women's clothing in our society, I suggest googling "kilted yoga." Warning. Results may be NSFW.


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#521 MercyA

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 04:25 PM

eta:  Here's an example of a dress I personally think is adorable but way too short for comfort.  It's 29 inches long, which is pretty darn short, especially if one is not short waisted -- my girls are not.  They tend to be longer waisted, which makes short dresses appear even shorter on them than shorter waisted girls.  But anyway, if a girl could feel comfortable in this without feeling paranoid about accidentally flashing anyone on the dance floor or otherwise, right on!  This dress is super cute.  I wouldn't choose it for my daughters, though, mostly because I don't want them to be preoccupied with keeping their skirt down at all times.

 

29" is crazy. Just for comparison, I'm 5'8" and tunics have to be 32" long to cover my backside. My daughter is under 10 years old, and she can't wear dresses under 30" without them looking too short on her.

 

It's like someone said, "How short can we make this dress and still have it minimally cover some women's private parts, some of the time?" 

 

I seriously don't understand why women buy this stuff.  :confused1:


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#522 jewellsmommy

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 05:33 PM

Not only name the problem, but also have an understanding as to a common definition.  And when someone tries to define it to include every time a male has sex with a female who has been drinking (or similar overreach), the sanity checkers are going to come out.  And that should neither surprise nor dismay anyone.

 

And then someone gets angry about the reminder that women can and do consent to unadvisable sex, and posts comments that exceed the bounds of rationality, with predictable results.

 

I understand that rape is an emotional subject and maybe it defies calm discussion.  But on a rational level, it does not deserve special deference on a general chat board such as this.

 

I have never heard of or read of a definition of rape that includes: ... every time a male has sex with a female who has been drinking...    

 

People get angry/flustered/annoyed when you try to define rape as something ridiculous (as above) so that you can argue against it and take it apart. Because no one else is focusing on the fringe elements that you seem to want to consistently deal in.

 

Those of us dealing with the general rule as defined by the stats, as opposed to every minute exception you try to find or fabricate (see definition above as an example), are not the ones who need "sanity checkers." 

 

 

 

ETA: As to the second bolded, no one has gotten angry about or denied that some women have casual sex just like men (drunk or sober). The difference is that women are disrespected for doing the exact same thing as men. That behavior is then used against them if they are ever unfortunate enough to be raped and then used by a defense lawyer as a reason that the woman couldn't have been raped. That double standard is what make women angry.


Edited by jewellsmommy, 25 October 2017 - 05:38 PM.

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#523 Ravin

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 05:45 PM

As far as clothes, I really couldn't care less what teenagers decide to wear. At most they are advertising, "look at me, I look fabulous/sexy/adjective-of-your-choice." Such might be taken as an invitation to look, but an invitation to look is not an invitation to touch. 

 

I am in favor of balancing things out by making very short kilts acceptable attire for men, with shirts optional, in situations where women wear very short/backless/low cut dresses. :biggrinjester:


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#524 amsunshine

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 05:55 PM

As far as clothes, I really couldn't care less what teenagers decide to wear. At most they are advertising, "look at me, I look fabulous/sexy/adjective-of-your-choice." Such might be taken as an invitation to look, but an invitation to look is not an invitation to touch. 

 

I am in favor of balancing things out by making very short kilts acceptable attire for men, with shirts optional, in situations where women wear very short/backless/low cut dresses. :biggrinjester:

 

LOL!



#525 Quill

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 06:04 PM

29" is crazy. Just for comparison, I'm 5'8" and tunics have to be 32" long to cover my backside. My daughter is under 10 years old, and she can't wear dresses under 30" without them looking too short on her.

It's like someone said, "How short can we make this dress and still have it minimally cover some women's private parts, some of the time?"

I seriously don't understand why women buy this stuff. :confused1:

This is a much better example of what I have been seeing. And I just measured this on myself; this comes to the bottom edge of my butt cheeks. It’s nice to know it’s not just my imagination.

I just asked a friend, who chaperoned at her dd’s homecoming dance, if she was seeing some super short dresses; she confirmed. She said roughly a third of the girls wore super short dresses. She reported, “There was one girl - I could actually see her panties from the front.” There was a “grind circle” for part of the night. She said this school’s dance was “pretty tame” compared to another PS in the same area. The comparable school also featured more grind-dancing and there was at least one guy who took off his shirt and danced topless. One of the music selections was “Show Us Your T!ts”, which I did not even know was an actual song.

I also think, in order to balance what I’ve said, it is important to note that I have also been looking at dance pictures from other friends whom I know have standards more similar to my own and, sure enough, their dd’s are wearing very nice, perfectly lovely dresses that are of a normal length. So clearly there are such things.

I really wish that, as consumers, we would just sort of band together and refuse to buy a 29” dress for a woman.

ETA: one of the reviews of this dress says it is NOT a dress; it is a romper. If it is a romper, it makes a tiny bit more sense at that length. Not that I would buy it. But if it has a sewn crotch, that is an improvement over it being a dress.

Edited by Quill, 25 October 2017 - 06:10 PM.

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#526 amsunshine

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 06:26 PM

ETA: one of the reviews of this dress says it is NOT a dress; it is a romper. If it is a romper, it makes a tiny bit more sense at that length. Not that I would buy it. But if it has a sewn crotch, that is an improvement over it being a dress.

 

Huh -- I didn't notice that review.  I had just been searching for velvet dresses and that one happened to come up.  Nice to know it was mis-titled.


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#527 amsunshine

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 06:39 PM

This should maybe be a spin-off, but where do you people shop for your teen girls these days for nice, reasonably priced semi-formal/formalwear?  Places that have a good variety of styles (short, long and in-between)?  I searched Forever 21, Hollister, Macys, JCPenney, H&M, Charlotte Russe, TJ Maxx, Kohls, and Nordstrom Rack.  I found several different styles I liked, but there seemed to be a lot of repetitive styles.  I ended up getting two from Nordstrom Rack that we all liked and hopefully they will fit.  I ordered this one and this one, for the record. 

 

Aside from the list of stores above, are there any other retailers I may have missed?



#528 SKL

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 07:03 PM

I have never heard of or read of a definition of rape that includes: ... every time a male has sex with a female who has been drinking...    

 

People get angry/flustered/annoyed when you try to define rape as something ridiculous (as above) so that you can argue against it and take it apart. Because no one else is focusing on the fringe elements that you seem to want to consistently deal in.

 

Those of us dealing with the general rule as defined by the stats, as opposed to every minute exception you try to find or fabricate (see definition above as an example), are not the ones who need "sanity checkers." 

 

 

Re teaching boys how not to rape:

 

That you think this is unreasonable blows me away. Um, yeah, always and forever, you have to be prepared to stop if she says stop. And you shouldn't have sex with someone other than your significant other when either of you is under the influence of alcohol. Duh. This isn't hard. It really, really, really isn't. 

 

Pretty sure I never went near this subject on this thread until I agreed with someone who responded to the bolded - well into page 4 or 5 of the comments.

 

But again, if this is so irrelevant to the topic, let it go.  None of this takes away from how awful rape is.



#529 Quill

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 08:52 PM

This should maybe be a spin-off, but where do you people shop for your teen girls these days for nice, reasonably priced semi-formal/formalwear? Places that have a good variety of styles (short, long and in-between)? I searched Forever 21, Hollister, Macys, JCPenney, H&M, Charlotte Russe, TJ Maxx, Kohls, and Nordstrom Rack. I found several different styles I liked, but there seemed to be a lot of repetitive styles. I ended up getting two from Nordstrom Rack that we all liked and hopefully they will fit. I ordered this one and this one, for the record.

Aside from the list of stores above, are there any other retailers I may have missed?


The significant majority of the dresses my daugter wore for dances were ordered from Modcloth. She actually still orders a lot of items from Modcloth.
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#530 jewellsmommy

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 09:03 PM

That you think this is unreasonable blows me away. Um, yeah, always and forever, you have to be prepared to stop if she says stop. And you shouldn't have sex with someone other than your significant other when either of you is under the influence of alcohol. Duh. This isn't hard. It really, really, really isn't. 

 

 

Re teaching boys how not to rape:

 

 

Pretty sure I never went near this subject on this thread until I agreed with someone who responded to the bolded - well into page 4 or 5 of the comments.

 

But again, if this is so irrelevant to the topic, let it go.  None of this takes away from how awful rape is.

 

You took her post out of context. She was responding to another post, adding her opinion about good consenting practices.

 

1. She did not define rape as " every time a male has sex with a female who has been drinking...   " 

 

2. She said "you" and "someone" both are non gender specific. So women should not have sex while with a non-spouse while intoxicated and men should not...it goes both ways...and is a good practice to abide by (in my opinion as well).

 

 

ETA: And it was not "Re teaching boys how not to rape:" It was in response to Quill's (lengthier post) saying that it is a confusing terrain for young men.


Edited by jewellsmommy, 25 October 2017 - 09:08 PM.

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