In which I am reminded why I quit homeschooling

[Moxie]

So gross.

 

It is hilarious to me that I am concidered liberal by the local hs groups when 99.5% of America would consider me ultra-conservative.

 

A local teen mentioned to a friend that she might be *gay*. I know!! Shocking right?!? Gay people actually exist outside of Evil Hollywood. Who knew??

 

Anyway, this child now might be asked to leave the local hs groups. Adults are having meeting to decide if this child poses a risk to the immortal souls of their own precious babies.

 

So damn gross.

[HomeAgain]

I had similar issues with a group at our last home.  You could be shady as possible, but heaven forbid you were gay, your parents weren't married, or...there were a couple of perverse oaths in their statement of faith that I found abhorrent.

 

Bigotry wrapped in prayer is still bigotry.

[Amy in NH]

Wow.  How Christian of them.

[displace]

:(

[I talk to the trees]

 

 

It is hilarious to me that I am concidered liberal by the local hs groups when 99.5% of America would consider me ultra-conservative. .

Yes to this! We never have found a homeschool group where we fit in or feel comfortable or welcomed. Given that my dd is graduating in the spring, I think it is safe to say that we never will.

[TABmom]

I find it gross that you are lumping homeschoolers together in the same group as these people. Why are you complaining about homeschoolers to a board full of homeschoolers? Especially since there are *gasp* gay homeschoolers here. If homeschoolers are so gross, why are you here?

[El...]

That's awful.  I do think fear is the thing behind it.  Cowardice.

[HomeAgain]

I find it gross that you are lumping homeschoolers together in the same group as these people. Why are you complaining about homeschoolers to a board full of homeschoolers? Especially since there are *gasp* gay homeschoolers here. If homeschoolers are so gross, why are you here?

 

It's no secret that a majority of hs'ers are Evangelical Protestant Christians.  It's no secret that a lot of "Christian" curriculum perpetuates bigotry and have thrived off of that for years.

 

I think you read the op with a different intent than I did.  It gets tiresome to run into this time after time because the majority of hs groups, especially in certain areas, are Christian in nature, either with or without the quotation marks around the word.  If it wasn't so prevalent there wouldn't be the issue. 

[TABmom]

I'm a homeschooler. I'm a Christian. I'm a liberal. I find my local homeschooling community to be very welcoming and friendly. There probably are a few bigots in the bunch, but I don't run into them.

[maize]

It's no secret that a majority of hs'ers are Evangelical Protestant Christians.

Data to back up this assertion?

 

The homeschoolers I know come from all kinds of backgrounds. Protestant evangelicals are a significant subset but not a majority or even close to a majority in the areas I have lived in.

[Catwoman]

I find it gross that you are lumping homeschoolers together in the same group as these people. Why are you complaining about homeschoolers to a board full of homeschoolers? Especially since there are *gasp* gay homeschoolers here. If homeschoolers are so gross, why are you here?

I have to defend Moxie here.

 

I thought she was only talking about her local homeschool groups and how she thought it was terrible that a gay child might be excluded from those groups, when they were perfectly happy to have her as a member before she came out as being gay.

 

I think it's terrible, too -- and it seems like you do as well.

 

But I can understand how you read her OP as being anti-homeschooling, because when I just went back and re-read it, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. And for all I know, you could be right and I could be wrong! But I think Moxie was only angry with her local hs groups, not with homeschoolers in general. :)

[Innisfree]

I hope this teen has someone providing nonjudgmental, accepting support to her. Sounds like she may need it, surrounded by that group.

[HomeAgain]

Data to back up this assertion?

 

The homeschoolers I know come from all kinds of backgrounds. Protestant evangelicals are a significant subset but not a majority or even close to a majority in the areas I have lived in.

 

As there is no concrete data on the number of homeschoolers, I point to the most popular science curricula, HSLDA, and offerings at conventions. :lol:

 

And yes, it does depend on where you live.  But given the wide variety of places we've lived, I can say that yes, Protestant Evangelical homeschoolers do make up the majority still.

[TABmom]

Even if she was talking about only her local group- she said she was glad she stopped homeschooling because of them. As if she couldn't possibly homeschool without acting like them? Why on earth not? Educational choices have nothing to do with being a bigot. Would she also have to use the same math program? Go on the same nature hikes? It's entirely possible to homeschool without associating with the local homeschool bigots. she wouldn't have to join their group at all. I sure as heck wouldn't.

[maize]

As there is no concrete data on the number of homeschoolers, I point to the most popular science curricula, HSLDA, and offerings at conventions. :lol:

 

 

I find none of these convincing.

 

How do you determine the most popular science curriculum without polling a broad swath of homeschoolers? That certain YEC curricula are aggressively marketed to homeschoolers doesn't mean much--those who want secular curriculum can choose any of the hundreds of offerings available in the mainstream market and do not need to recreate the wheel.

 

HSLDA was created by and for evangelical homeschoolers. What about it? Most homeschooling families across the country are not members.

 

If you go to homeschool conferences put on by and for evangelical Christians then yeah you will get materials aimed at them. I've been to one of those. Guess what? I've also been to homeschool conferences put on by and for Mormons; I did not conclude from this that most homeschoolers are Mormon.

 

If you are in a part of the country with a heavy concentration of evangelical Christians then I imagine you will find a large percentage of evangelical Christians among local homeschoolers. In other areas I do not think this holds true.

 

Homeschool park days in Southern California where quite divers.

Edited October 21, 2017 by maize

[FaithManor]

While I have found diversity among homeschoolers individually and on this board, I have not found diversity among homeschooling clubs/groups/co-ops. These have all had tightly controlled statements of faith, been non inclusive with laundry lists of people and individual choices for intelligibility - such as using secular science curriculum - to weed out the people who don't believe everything the organizer believes, and heavily discriminatory against non evangelicals. So I get the angst that the OP is feeling.

[hornblower]

I find it gross that you are lumping homeschoolers together in the same group as these people. Why are you complaining about homeschoolers to a board full of homeschoolers? Especially since there are *gasp* gay homeschoolers here. If homeschoolers are so gross, why are you here?

 

Moxie has been a member for eons. Just have a look at her post count.  IMO she can diss her peeps if she wants to.  Many of us vent about our hs communities, specific, local, or on the whole. 

 

And btw, there are others here who are not homeschooling.

[HomeAgain]

I find none of these convincing.

 

 

 

Okay.

[TABmom]

While I have found diversity among homeschoolers individually and on this board, I have not found diversity among homeschooling clubs/groups/co-ops. These have all had tightly controlled statements of faith, been non inclusive with laundry lists of people and individual choices for intelligibility - such as using secular science curriculum - to weed out the people who don't believe everything the organizer believes, and heavily discriminatory against non evangelicals. So I get the angst that the OP is feeling.

This has not been my experience. Even though most homeschoolers I know are Christians, they are not the type being discussed here. I've been a part of 2 Christian co-ops and basically they just open with a prayer. Nothing else is explicitly Christian in content. And anyone is welcome as long as they don't object to the prayer.

[Amy in NH]

Even if she was talking about only her local group- she said she was glad she stopped homeschooling because of them. As if she couldn't possibly homeschool without acting like them? Why on earth not? Educational choices have nothing to do with being a bigot. Would she also have to use the same math program? Go on the same nature hikes? It's entirely possible to homeschool without associating with the local homeschool bigots. she wouldn't have to join their group at all. I sure as heck wouldn't.

If you live in a place where Christian homeschoolers such as those are the only game in town, it can be lonely and discouraging. I would presume to say that she is glad not to be homeschooling because now she doesn't have to deal with them any longer, and she can no longer be mistaken as sharing their bigoted views.

 

<3 to Moxie.

[MedicMom]

While I have found diversity among homeschoolers individually and on this board, I have not found diversity among homeschooling clubs/groups/co-ops. These have all had tightly controlled statements of faith, been non inclusive with laundry lists of people and individual choices for intelligibility - such as using secular science curriculum - to weed out the people who don't believe everything the organizer believes, and heavily discriminatory against non evangelicals. So I get the angst that the OP is feeling.

This.

I don’t know a SINGLE secular(non Protestant conservative) homeschooler in my area. In fact two of the local (only) homeschool groups include “a commitment to traditional heterosexual marriage†in their statement of faith.

 

It is really location dependent.

Edited October 21, 2017 by MedicMom

[FaithManor]

This has not been my experience. Even though most homeschoolers I know are Christians, they are not the type being discussed here. I've been a part of 2 Christian co-ops and basically they just open with a prayer. Nothing else is explicitly Christian in content. And anyone is welcome as long as they don't object to the prayer.

I am very glad that this is your experience. You should be aware that this is NOT the experience of everyone on this board. We each have a tendency to speak to our individual experiences.

[AimeeM]

Even if she was talking about only her local group- she said she was glad she stopped homeschooling because of them. As if she couldn't possibly homeschool without acting like them? Why on earth not? Educational choices have nothing to do with being a bigot. Would she also have to use the same math program? Go on the same nature hikes? It's entirely possible to homeschool without associating with the local homeschool bigots. she wouldn't have to join their group at all. I sure as heck wouldn't.

 

In my area, those kinds of groups make up 90% of the local homeschoolers. If I don't join their groups, I have no community -- and if you have children who need a community, it becomes problematic.

[FaithManor]

This.

I don’t know a SINGLE secular(non Protestant conservative) homeschooler in my area. In fact two of the local (only) homeschool groups include “a commitment to traditional heterosexual marriage†in their statement of faith.

 

It is really location dependent.

Very much so. In lower population densities, often there is only one game in town so if it run by a certain belief group, you are kind of sunk.

 

I have a feeling that if we had remained in Portland and raised our kids there, our experience would be very different.

[nixpix5]

That is ridiculous :( They must be afraid their kids will catch it (sorry, sarcasm...these things just make me furious). I would quit a group so fast if they did that to someone.

 

When I worked with at risk youth it was in a Christian school for kids who either struggled with drugs and addictions or had something going on that made another school setting not a good choice. We had alot of gay, bi and transgender youth. I loved my executive director because even though I would consider her ultra conservative, she loved on those kids and protected them fiercely. THAT is the way to show God's love. We had chapel every Wednesday and would have various speakers. One time we had this young, funny and kind of cool speaker who was a youth pastor. He was from an urban setting so had a bit of slang to his speech and sermons. He was telling a story to the students about shaving his legs for swimming and then when his this girl he liked saw or something like that he said "nah, don't get the wrong idea, I'm not gay" but said it in somewhat of a disrespectful way. He also referred to this girl as "a dime" when he was used to dating "nickels". My exec director stopped him mid talk, looked at him in front of everyone and said "you may leave our school now" and then she ordered pizzas for everyone and she apologized for hurtful treatment of students we love dearly. We all had a group discussion that ended up being really amazing. It led to many of our students feeling valued and supported.

 

People like this homeschool group do such incredible harm :(

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You know what, I'm in Moxie's state (I think). If so, the state hs'ing organization is not only exclusively evangelical Protestant Christian, but has stepped up the exclusion by targeting transgendered children as a threat to their kids, at top leadership levels. I tried to fight this; ended up leaving the statewide discussion list when dissenters were moderated out.

 

I wasn't the only one, nobody's ever truly alone. But the sad fact is that in this state, if you are not ONE kind of hs'er, you are going it alone. The dozen of us outcast liberals live too far apart! Plus in our state, hsers have extremely limited involvement with public schools, for dual enrollment or sports or anything, so you are left with rec league sports, or extremely expensive activities that are open to all students. Or if you can't afford high fees and long drives, you're hoping and praying you'll find one or two other families.

 

If Moxie lives here, and quit hs'ing due to bigotry and isolation, and is being reminded of that by observing the persecution of yet another child, I've got no criticism for her being disgusted. This IS the face of hs'ing here.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[HS Mom in NC]

Yep.  Even here with a huge homeschooling population, you will run into this if you or your child is LGBTQ. Thankfully we have some secular groups.

And homeschoolers vent about homeschoolers here all the time, so don't play the "not every homeschooler is like that" card.  She never said every homeschooler was like that.  She implied enough of them are that it's not worth homeschooling to her family.

I know kids in that category and the only place they're comfortable in is secular groups. If your group is teaching sex ed or co-ops/classes from a religious/philosophical/traditional point of view, then the statement of faith makes sense, otherwise it's practical result is excluding people.

Yesterday I got an earful from 2 homeschoolers who have moved from the same more isolated community.  There you had to sign a statement of faith and sign a statement that homeschooling means no outsourcing of any kind or you couldn't join.  So the one group in the area became two groups and that was it for everyone.  It's perfectly fine to disagree about what constitutes a homeschooler in your own mind, and say so out loud, but it's incredibly obnoxious to make someone sign a statement about it. What a hassle for no good reason! And there the refugee homeschooler percentage was really high due to the terrible schools, so they had people who needed a lot of help and support but were getting squabbles and pettiness.

[Selkie]

That is just brutal. My heart breaks for that poor child. I really hope her parents are supporting her and tell that group to shove it. 

 

I don't know of any homeschooling groups in our area that are like that, thankfully. Homeschooling seems to be a pretty secular thing around here.

[Tanaqui]

I think we've probably all jumped on TABmom enough. Yeah, it's pretty obvious she misunderstood what Moxie meant, and she should've given her the benefit of the doubt... but it's easy to be knee-jerk defensive when you're part of a small group of people that is often criticized as a mass instead of individually.

[J-rap]

That is so sad.  That's not just a homeschool thing though, of course.

 

I think it's moves like that that are destroying the church.

[Guest]

The parents are doing, IMO, the exact wrong thing (background-this child has been homeschooled her whole life, her whole social group is this hs community). They are telling her to keep quiet and hope this all blows over. They are viewing this as attention seeking behavior. My thought is, what if it isn’t?? What if this is that turning point in this child’s life when she learns who is in her corner and who is not??

TABMom, I never meant to imply that EVERY homeschooler is like this; I’ve been here long enough to know better! But, as far as I can tell, this is how they all are in this area. Yes, even the state organization is HEAVILY anti-gay rights. As most of the people on this board know, a major (but not only) reason we quit homeschooling was because of Protestant homeschool children attacking my future Paleontologist son because we believe the earth is older than 6000 years. If you have a great hs group, lucky you!! It is not the same everywhere.

[EMS83]

Wow do you live near me?!

That and other things are why I'm not in a homeschool group.

Edited October 21, 2017 by CES2005

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Moxie, I'm so sorry to hear that update.

[KungFuPanda]

It's no secret that a majority of hs'ers are Evangelical Protestant Christians.  It's no secret that a lot of "Christian" curriculum perpetuates bigotry and have thrived off of that for years.

 

I think you read the op with a different intent than I did.  It gets tiresome to run into this time after time because the majority of hs groups, especially in certain areas, are Christian in nature, either with or without the quotation marks around the word.  If it wasn't so prevalent there wouldn't be the issue.

 

I'm glad this is untrue where I live. Or maybe there are so many of us it's just easy to find secular groups. I love blue state homeschooling!

[poppy]

What would Jesus do?

 

 

But I know what's happpening.

Locally, there is a secular homeschool group and a Christian one, and one is 'all welcome!" and the other is "circle the wagons against the heathans / everyone else".  And those Christians are really tight knit and supportive  of each other. But, if you put yourself in a circle like that, you're going to have to shun folks sometimes.  It is an intrinsic part of the identity.

[MercyA]

What would Jesus do?

 

Is that a rhetorical question?

 

"Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, 'How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?'

 

When Jesus heard it, He said to them, 'Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.'" 

 

I think Jesus would sit with her and talk to her and teach her and help her in whatever way she truly needs.

 

Re: the situation that Moxie described: I think there are several problems going on. First, how did this progress from a teen making a comment to a friend to a meeting being called among parents? I really hope this whole thing isn't based on heresay and gossip.

 

Secondly, I wonder if there is even anything in the co-op's statement of faith or conduct that prohibits the child from being part of the group. If not, a meeting never should have been called. If there is a rule regarding PDA, like Sadie mentioned, it should be applied to all. Standards of conduct I understand; policing people's feelings or tendencies or questions seems *way* beyond the authority of co-op leaders and members.

 

I hope the girl continues to be welcome in her group of friends and receives good counsel from them and from her parents. 

 

ETA: And just so no one misunderstands, I have no idea whether this girl is a sinner in need of repentance or not. There just seems to be a common misperception that Jesus hung with everyone and was cool with everyone and was just generally a non-judgmental kind of guy. Not really the case.

Edited October 22, 2017 by MercyA

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm glad this is untrue where I live. Or maybe there are so many of us it's just easy to find secular groups. I love blue state homeschooling!

 

Yeah, I think we have it both ways (religious groups that would be upset by an openly LGBTQ child or parent and other groups who wouldn't be upset at all) because we're a purple state.

 

[HSmomof2]

This has not been my experience. Even though most homeschoolers I know are Christians, they are not the type being discussed here. I've been a part of 2 Christian co-ops and basically they just open with a prayer. Nothing else is explicitly Christian in content. And anyone is welcome as long as they don't object to the prayer.

This has pretty much been my experience as well. We’ve been part of 4 different Christian co-ops in our area over the last 10 years. No statement of faith was required to join. Teachers signed a statement of faith only agreeing they wouldn’t teach against general Christian doctrine. No specific curricula was required.some people used Christian curricula, some didn’t, most used a mix of secular and Christian materials.....I’m sure it is not like this everywhere. I live in an area where there are way more secular homeschoolers than religious, and both groups seem to generally get along pretty well.

[gingersmom]

It's no secret that a majority of hs'ers are Evangelical Protestant Christians. It's no secret that a lot of "Christian" curriculum perpetuates bigotry and have thrived off of that for years.

 

I think you read the op with a different intent than I did. It gets tiresome to run into this time after time because the majority of hs groups, especially in certain areas, are Christian in nature, either with or without the quotation marks around the word. If it wasn't so prevalent there wouldn't be the issue.

Have you ever lived in New York City area, New Jersey or Connecticut?

 

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

I have met Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, gay, and single parent homeschoolers.

 

Obviously we have very different experiences.

[MegP]

Have you ever lived in New York City area, New Jersey or Connecticut?

 

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

I have met Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, gay, and single parent homeschoolers.

 

Obviously we have very different experiences.

 

LOL I have never met a Jewish, or Atheist or  Muslim or gay or single parent who homeschools.

 

And the homeschooling co-ops here have statements of faith, some of which specifically mention homosexuality and transgender issues, and state that if a parent is homosexual or trans, or living with a partner and not married,  then they are not welcome to join the co-op. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by MegP

[eternalsummer]

Moxie, I don't think you're more conservative on this issue than 99.5% of Americans, and I doubt you're more conservative than 99.5% of Americans on any issue.  

 

I think you (as we all do) live in a bubble if you see yourself that way.

 

23% of Americans as of 2017 think gay/lesbian sex should be illegal.

 

42% of Americans as of 2015 think being gay is a choice.

 

That took me 30 seconds of googling; I'm sure you could get more detailed if you wanted to.

 

I'm just saying, maybe you're in the most conservative third of Americans?  Maybe the most conservative 20% if all of your other social views are farther to the right than your views about homosexuality.  But you're not 1 in 200.

[Jkacz]

Have you ever lived in New York City area, New Jersey or Connecticut?

 

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

I have met Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, gay, and single parent homeschoolers.

 

Obviously we have very different experiences.

Can I add New Hampshire to your list? I've homeschooled in NH for 5 years, and haven't met an a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler, either.

[happi duck]

We're done now.

But for us the only groups available were strict religious groups. We tried one that didn't require signing a sof but it was still rigid. I gave up on homeschool groups.

 

We are in the bluest county of a blue state.

 

I hope it's different now!

[nixpix5]

Have you ever lived in New York City area, New Jersey or Connecticut?

 

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

I have met Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, gay, and single parent homeschoolers.

 

Obviously we have very different experiences.

Wow! I live near Seattle where I would assume we had a similar demographic being a blue state but thr majority of homeschoolers I know are Christian. My co-op is even a publically funded school and although people play by the curriculum rules, the majority I know there are Christian. I'm Christian so not an issue for me but hearing about New York, New Jersey and Connecticut surprised me.

[Amy in NH]

Can I add New Hampshire to your list? I've homeschooled in NH for 5 years, and haven't met an a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler, either.

I've homeschooled in NH for ~20 years, and I've met a whole bunch. I know of multiple co-ops with a statement of faith.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Have you ever lived in New York City area, New Jersey or Connecticut?

 

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

I have met Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, gay, and single parent homeschoolers.

 

Obviously we have very different experiences.

 

I live in one of those states and there are PLENTY of Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschoolers around me. Thankfully, there are also a few secular hippie homeschoolers too. We run a secular co-op, but it is the only one I know of. Now, that said, the Christian homeschoolers I know are very nice people. I even met some of them here! But they are still a good chunk of the HSers I know. Our local convention is full of all the standard Teach Them Diligently-style sessions--and this year it didn't even have the used curriculum sale to balance that out :(

 

ETA: I was wrong, I remembered another secular co-op, so two. But I can think of at least five strongly religious ones off the top of my head, and those are the ones I know of in my area alone. Head south in the state and it gets progressively more religious, almost like heading into the Bible belt. 

Edited October 22, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[katilac]

It's no secret that a majority of hs'ers are Evangelical Protestant Christians.   

 

I do not think this is correct. You can't really go by stuff like what is sold at homeschooling conventions, because secular homeschoolers will buy public school texts, lol. 

 

It's funny, because my only awareness of homeschooling for a long time was John Holt, "free the children," stereotypical California hippie style  :laugh:

[fraidycat]

That poor girl. :(

[Tanaqui]

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

While I've never personally met an Evangelical Homeschooler here in NYC, they definitely exist. I've bumped into their homeschooling groups before while googling.

 

[HomeAgain]

Have you ever lived in New York City area, New Jersey or Connecticut?

 

I've never met a Evangelical Protestant Christian homeschooler in person.

 

I have met Jewish, Atheist, Muslim, gay, and single parent homeschoolers.

 

Obviously we have very different experiences.

 

That's why I added the caveat, 'especially in certain areas'.

 

I'm in a very Catholic area now.  There's a lot more 'live and let live'. :)  I don't even think there's a co-op past age 6, though, and schooling regulations are tighter, making you prove you're giving your child an adequate education.  That's also not the same everywhere. We've lived in a lot of places with absolutely no regulation and that's where religion took the front seat over education. 

I remember once where we were invited, as part of the state homeschooling group, to go see the President.  The presence was overwhelmingly religious - and I'm talking enough of us to fill the side of the arena behind the podium.   But I've schooled in lots of different areas, and even if not homeschooling for religious reasons, the majority were Evangelical Protestant. 

 

I'm not saying EPs are bad.  I'm saying that there can, and sometimes is, a tendency to take that faith and use it as a measuring stick or weapon when the majority.  I don't know of any other group that has cared about my bedroom enough to try to make me sign a statement, or has specifically written regulations to keep out other branches of Christianity in an underhanded way so they could teach writing and 5 In A Row in a group setting.  I don't care what a person believes individually, but I do care when a faith is used to take away opportunities from other children and leave them without a support group.

 

FWIW, my son now goes to a synagogue for a weekly class and we're both happy with it.  His teacher is lovely and has no intention of converting him or scolding him for eating bacon with his oatmeal.