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Reading and the 9th grader


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#1 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:57 AM

I could use some help brainstorming this issue.

 

I've talked a lot about older DD.  She has convergence insufficiency that is managed with glasses.  A few years ago she was dx'd with SLD-Disorder of Written Exression, Moderate and SLD-Math, mild.

 

She also has molasses slow processing speed (1%) and low working memory (4%).

 

Those are her areas of struggle.

 

(She's also an amazing artist, super funny, and has a tender heart.  She's not just her struggles, but anyway...)

 

She can read (decode) pretty much at grade level, but:

 

(1) She says she can't remember what she reads.  To hear her describe it,  it's almost like her brain is a sieve and as soon as she reads information it slides right out again.  This is how she experiences reading.  But, in the past, she's done surprisingly well on reading comprehension tests.  IIRC, she was in the 90s for that part of the WISC IV.  Maybe because those were just short passages?  But ask her to read a novel or a longer (1-2 page) lesson, and all bets are off.

 

(2)  She's reversing things randomly.  Still reverses letters occasionally, but it's most annoying for her when doing things like math comparison problems.  She absolutely knows that the arrow points to the smaller number, and she knows that, for example, 1/4 is less than 1/2, but sat there and argued with me how TT scored her answer wrong, even though she got it right.  It was something like comparing, 1/4 ____ 1/2.  She answered > because, as I later discovered, she saw 1/2 ____ 1/4.   

 

I can't figure this out.  I don't think she's faking it, that's just not her style.  She's more of an avoider than a malingerer.

 

I'm really at a loss as to how to help her.  I've thought about having her re-tested, but even if we decide to go that route there are long wait lists and we're looking at spring at the soonest.  In the meantime, homefry is in the 9th grade.  We can't afford to lose another year of no formal lit.  I need to figure out (1) what the heck is going on, and (2) how best to help her to overcome or accommodate it.

 

Thank you, wise mamas.  I'm  :bigear:



#2 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 01:46 PM

How thorough were her eye tests?  I suspect there are several things going on that trip her up, one of them being possibly still some developmental eye issues that are NOT being managed with glasses.  I can't remember, has she had VT?  

 

As for not remembering things that she read silently, does it help if she listens to an audio version either instead of or while reading, such as with a Kindle book paired with Whisper Sync?

 

If you read the material to her, in short segments, then discuss, does that help?



#3 OrganicJen

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 02:22 PM

My son doesn't have her exact challenges but some of his are similar. What works for us is him reading everything aloud and I stop periodically to check for comprehension etc. If he listens to me read it isn't the same, he has to be reading aloud so that he sees, says, and hears the words.
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#4 OhElizabeth

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 09:50 PM

When my dd was at that stage with her convergence, she also had extremely poor visual memory. Your dd probably also has some attention issues factoring in. Agree with the others that glasses do not solve convergence insufficiency. You want to get her checked for retained reflexes, get them integrated, then do vision therapy. Effective vision therapy could reverse the convergence insufficiency in just a few months. Then work on the visual processing, get her visual memory to kick in. I would also work on RAN/RAS to improve the reading fluency and do metronome work (Interactive Metronome or hack it at home yourself, whatever) to see if it will bump her processing speed.

 

I'm sorry it's hard. Sometimes therapy seems like a rabbit trail, but a few months spent really working at it sometimes can get you HUGE breakthroughs. So think about where you could be two months from now if you started VT *now* or if you started working on reflexes *now*. Two months wouldn't even be Christmas. So maybe this semester is a bust, but you could do therapy, bang it out, and start in January with new eyes.

 

Did the doc who diagnosed do a visagraph on her? They put on infrared goggles and track their eye movements as they read. It will probably explain the stuff you're describing. Until you get that fixed, she's just battling uphill, like salmon going to spawn and die.


Edited by OhElizabeth, 19 October 2017 - 09:51 PM.

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#5 Storygirl

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Posted 19 October 2017 - 10:42 PM

With the super low processing speed and working memory, plus math, writing, and reading comprehension difficulties, it makes me wonder if it could be NVLD (nonverbal learning disorder). Are the verbal scores on the WISC (VCI) considerably higher than the visual spatial (VSI) and the processing speed (PSI)?

 

Some psychs will not diagnose NVLD, because it is not in the DSM, even if the hallmark characteristics are evident.


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#6 ElizabethB

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Posted 21 October 2017 - 05:26 PM

How fast does she read orally and silently?  Do the MWIA 3 and both the adult and child silent reading passages and my nonsense word oral reading speed test at the end of my Syllables page.  I would also give my reading grade level test.

 

http://www.thephonic...lesspellsu.html

 

Depending on speeds and reading grade level I will have different ideas.


Edited by ElizabethB, 21 October 2017 - 05:28 PM.


#7 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 09:17 PM

How thorough were her eye tests?  I suspect there are several things going on that trip her up, one of them being possibly still some developmental eye issues that are NOT being managed with glasses.  I can't remember, has she had VT?  

 

As for not remembering things that she read silently, does it help if she listens to an audio version either instead of or while reading, such as with a Kindle book paired with Whisper Sync?

 

If you read the material to her, in short segments, then discuss, does that help?

 

Yes, she had VT with a really good developmental optometrist.  She says she can't focus with audiobooks.  Me reading aloud is better, because I can stop every few paragraphs and check in with her, keep her on task.  It's just frustrating.  I need to teach her active reading strategies, how to use a high lighter, that type of thing.  Maybe that will help keep her dialed in.  Maybe.  

 

When my dd was at that stage with her convergence, she also had extremely poor visual memory. Your dd probably also has some attention issues factoring in. Agree with the others that glasses do not solve convergence insufficiency. You want to get her checked for retained reflexes, get them integrated, then do vision therapy. Effective vision therapy could reverse the convergence insufficiency in just a few months. Then work on the visual processing, get her visual memory to kick in. I would also work on RAN/RAS to improve the reading fluency and do metronome work (Interactive Metronome or hack it at home yourself, whatever) to see if it will bump her processing speed.

 

I'm sorry it's hard. Sometimes therapy seems like a rabbit trail, but a few months spent really working at it sometimes can get you HUGE breakthroughs. So think about where you could be two months from now if you started VT *now* or if you started working on reflexes *now*. Two months wouldn't even be Christmas. So maybe this semester is a bust, but you could do therapy, bang it out, and start in January with new eyes.

 

Did the doc who diagnosed do a visagraph on her? They put on infrared goggles and track their eye movements as they read. It will probably explain the stuff you're describing. Until you get that fixed, she's just battling uphill, like salmon going to spawn and die.

 

Ugh.  I don't want it to be about her vision, because dealing with it feels like slogging through mud uphill.  She saw some significant improvements while doing VT and I still have this huge binder of exercises from her doctor.  However, we weren't compliant in continuing the exercises, because... we just weren't.  I can see how dusting off the binder and getting back to work might be helpful.  :( 

 

With the super low processing speed and working memory, plus math, writing, and reading comprehension difficulties, it makes me wonder if it could be NVLD (nonverbal learning disorder). Are the verbal scores on the WISC (VCI) considerably higher than the visual spatial (VSI) and the processing speed (PSI)?

 

Some psychs will not diagnose NVLD, because it is not in the DSM, even if the hallmark characteristics are evident.

 

I don't think it's NVLD.  I need to dig out her eval, but IIRC her Perceptual Reasoning was 109  and her Verbal was in the 90s.  Then the WM and PS scores tanked.  Unless NVLD is lower verbal and higher perceptual.  I can't remember and I'm too lazy to google it right now  :tongue_smilie:

 

 

How fast does she read orally and silently?  Do the MWIA 3 and both the adult and child silent reading passages and my nonsense word oral reading speed test at the end of my Syllables page.  I would also give my reading grade level test.

 

http://www.thephonic...lesspellsu.html

 

Depending on speeds and reading grade level I will have different ideas.

Thank you :) I'll have her work on these tomorrow and get back to you.



#8 OhElizabeth

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Posted 22 October 2017 - 10:11 PM

If you were doing the exercises and weren't making progress or found it a hard slog, you're going to want to check for retained reflexes.

 

Did they work on visual processing after they worked on the convergence?

 

And has she had a psych eval since then? I think they'll do SLD Reading for this. Would be good to have some testing to sort out what is language, what is attention, etc. If it's attention, meds would help. Anything that improves engagement would help. Prior knowledge, structured comprehension approaches (4SQR, blh albh athat I always forget). Cuz yeah, if she's got ADHD in her mix, simply being disinterested or disconnected will tank her memory for the material. She literally won't be attending.

 

So maybe some more testing to sort it out. :(


Edited by OhElizabeth, 22 October 2017 - 10:15 PM.


#9 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 05:45 PM

How fast does she read orally and silently?  Do the MWIA 3 and both the adult and child silent reading passages and my nonsense word oral reading speed test at the end of my Syllables page.  I would also give my reading grade level test.

 

http://www.thephonic...lesspellsu.html

 

Depending on speeds and reading grade level I will have different ideas.

 

Wow. Her reading speed is all over the place.  Here's what I got today from my daughter who has declared her reading issues "unfixable." :( 

 

Reading Grade Level (used the Quick Screen) : 9.0  

 

MWIA 3 -  Combined Holistic Words: 62 wpm; 1 error  (said "thumb" instead of "thump"); Combined Phonetic Words: 70 wpm, 3 errors (said "shrug" instead of "shrub," "gulp" instead of "gulps," and "suit" instead of "soot")

 

Nonsense Word Test - 41 wpm, 1 error (said "gash" instead of "jash")

 

Silent Reading - C1: 128 wpm; A1: 85 wpm

 

What  now?



#10 Pen

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 06:10 PM

When she reads, does she put what she reads into pictures in her mind, like seeing a film of what she is reading?  

 

Or is she just reading the words as words?

 

 

 

TT has sound doesn't it?  Can she listen to the problems read aloud as she reads them?

 

If she were doing math in print form, using a finger or index card to help notice exact order and what is left and right could help, perhaps.



#11 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 07:44 PM

When she reads, does she put what she reads into pictures in her mind, like seeing a film of what she is reading?  

 

Or is she just reading the words as words?

 

 

 

TT has sound doesn't it?  Can she listen to the problems read aloud as she reads them?

 

If she were doing math in print form, using a finger or index card to help notice exact order and what is left and right could help, perhaps.

 

She says she "sort of" has pictures in her mind. 

 

TT is working really well for her.  She's on track to finish TT6 and  TT7 by June. :) 



#12 Pen

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 08:28 PM

She says she "sort of" has pictures in her mind. 

 

 

 

 

I'd suggest working on making more / better pictures in her mind.  maybe with help of easier books from a decoding pov to work on the mind pictures.   Or ones (not too hard) that have movies or TV series that stick fairly close to them.  And perhaps also working on some memory from movies too, or stopping a movie DVD to discuss literary type elements and to refresh memory of it.



#13 Pen

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:09 PM

Also, she may be dyslexic.



#14 Storygirl

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Posted 23 October 2017 - 10:17 PM

Yes, you are right. NVLD has high verbal scores compared to low perceptual reasoning. So her scores don't seem to indicate that.

It could be a reading disability -- dyslexia, as Pen mentioned (did she have a CTOPP?), or even SLD Reading Comprehension. There is such a thing, separate from SLD Reading (which is more decoding/dyslexia).

 

I kind of wonder if it is the working memory. I have a friend whose daughter really struggles with all of schoolwork, and everyone who works with her agrees that her low working memory affects her ability to progress in all of it. The WM could account for your daughter's trouble with remembering what she reads.


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#15 ElizabethB

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 02:55 AM

Wow. Her reading speed is all over the place.  Here's what I got today from my daughter who has declared her reading issues "unfixable." :(

 

Reading Grade Level (used the Quick Screen) : 9.0  

 

MWIA 3 -  Combined Holistic Words: 62 wpm; 1 error  (said "thumb" instead of "thump"); Combined Phonetic Words: 70 wpm, 3 errors (said "shrug" instead of "shrub," "gulp" instead of "gulps," and "suit" instead of "soot")

 

Nonsense Word Test - 41 wpm, 1 error (said "gash" instead of "jash")

 

Silent Reading - C1: 128 wpm; A1: 85 wpm

 

What  now?

 

Those actually form a consistent pattern!  She is overall reading very slow for her age, but slower on the passage that is at her reading grade level than one that is below her reading grade level.  (The A1 passage at grade level, C1 below her grade level.)  Most of my students read orally slower than silently and the nonsense words slower than regular words.  Also, she is making a fairly consistent amount of errors across different types of passages which leads me to believe there is still a lingering vision problem that needs to be addressed.  

 

For reading that slow, it is best to pause after every sentence or two and take a few notes, you are reading too slow to keep the ideas in your head coherently.  Eventually you may be able to up this to every paragraph. Only my students with phenomenal working memory can read this slow without taking notes.

 

I do have ideas to up the reading speed, but first to see how much vision is impacting her and to see how she does on simple CVC nonsense words, time these two passages of 25 nonsense words and compare.  If she is reading the smaller font slower, work on vision first.  I'd also be interested to know her WPM rates on the 2 passages.  You want to print it out so the first one is at about 12 point font and the second at around 36 point font, if they appear different, cut and paste them into a word processing program and make them that size.  If CVC nonsense words are faster than the mixed nonsense words, you will need to do more work in certain areas than if they are the same as the previous nonsense words.

 

mab aff yock keck mun

sem yoff fon veff dob

vam dep shen em jed

jed mip siff jash vam

chod phip noff resh vot

 

mub fiff nem phem im

sab yem ep tuff id

mib hod jag mab mun

jin yan nim wib ock

noff dop kaff zim jun


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#16 ElizabethB

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Posted 24 October 2017 - 03:22 AM

She is not unfixable!  I have not had an unfixable student yet!!  They have all improved.  Give her a hug, poor girl.

 

The YouTube channel Verbal to Visual has a bunch of ideas for taking notes with a combo of words and images, which should appeal to her artistic side!  I would recommend she use that to take notes about what she is reading.

 

 

Also, I would cut down on her workload and required reading for now and work on fixing the vision and getting her reading grade level up to 12th grade level.  When she can read at that level, it should make her silent reading speed on the A1 type passage more in line with that of her C1 passage, still slow but a lot faster.  Most of her required reading is probably more in line with the A1 passages.  

 

I would have her work through my Syllables program and then all the Webster 2+ syllable words to get to 12th grade level, reading both the word lists and the sentences.  Read 5 minutes of lines of Webster 2+ words and 5 minutes of corresponding Webster sentences a day once she finishes the Syllable program.  If she reads the larger font faster, copy and paste all the exercises and word lists and Webster passages and words and make them 36 point font.  

 

The things she needs to do to improve reading speed are RAN/RAS activities like OhElizabeth suggested and working on over learning the letter sounds, most likely especially 2 letter vowel teams, but it depends on her score on the CVC nonsense words, she may need equal practice with them all, and nonsense word training, timing them once a week.  

 

The work will pay off.  For example, 128 WPM vs. 85 WPM means she could read a novel around the length of "Fahrenheit 451" or "A Separate Peace" in 6 hours vs. 9 hours, so the work up front will pay off in the long run.  (The speed which she should be able to read a passage at current norms once her reading grade level improves to 12th grade level, and the things to improve reading speed should make thing even faster.)

 

Edited by ElizabethB, 24 October 2017 - 03:43 AM.

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#17 shinyhappypeople

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Posted 25 October 2017 - 07:27 PM

Those actually form a consistent pattern!  She is overall reading very slow for her age, but slower on the passage that is at her reading grade level than one that is below her reading grade level.  (The A1 passage at grade level, C1 below her grade level.)  Most of my students read orally slower than silently and the nonsense words slower than regular words.  Also, she is making a fairly consistent amount of errors across different types of passages which leads me to believe there is still a lingering vision problem that needs to be addressed.  

 

For reading that slow, it is best to pause after every sentence or two and take a few notes, you are reading too slow to keep the ideas in your head coherently.  Eventually you may be able to up this to every paragraph. Only my students with phenomenal working memory can read this slow without taking notes.

 

I do have ideas to up the reading speed, but first to see how much vision is impacting her and to see how she does on simple CVC nonsense words, time these two passages of 25 nonsense words and compare.  If she is reading the smaller font slower, work on vision first.  I'd also be interested to know her WPM rates on the 2 passages.  You want to print it out so the first one is at about 12 point font and the second at around 36 point font, if they appear different, cut and paste them into a word processing program and make them that size.  If CVC nonsense words are faster than the mixed nonsense words, you will need to do more work in certain areas than if they are the same as the previous nonsense words.

 

mab aff yock keck mun

sem yoff fon veff dob

vam dep shen em jed

jed mip siff jash vam

chod phip noff resh vot

 

mub fiff nem phem im

sab yem ep tuff id

mib hod jag mab mun

jin yan nim wib ock

noff dop kaff zim jun

 

OK, Yoda, I tested her on these passages in the font sizes you suggested.  Her speed was almost the same for both (29.68 seconds for the 12 pt font, 30.12 seconds for the 36 pt font).  I noticed that she does a pretty good job sounding out the nonsense words correctly but, for the most part, it's not automatic.  For quite a few words she had to sound them out first (e.g. m-ub, mub).  So, now I'm guessing working on something relating to phonics and syllables? 

 

I'm really grateful for your help with this.  Thank you.


Edited by shinyhappypeople, 25 October 2017 - 07:30 PM.

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#18 ElizabethB

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 02:48 AM

OK, Yoda, I tested her on these passages in the font sizes you suggested.  Her speed was almost the same for both (29.68 seconds for the 12 pt font, 30.12 seconds for the 36 pt font).  I noticed that she does a pretty good job sounding out the nonsense words correctly but, for the most part, it's not automatic.  For quite a few words she had to sound them out first (e.g. m-ub, mub).  So, now I'm guessing working on something relating to phonics and syllables? 

 

I'm really grateful for your help with this.  Thank you.

 

Yes, I know, total shock and surprise, I'm going to recommend syllables and nonsense words and Webster!

 

But, a bit different than normal to focus on upping her speed and automating the phonics and reading of nonsense words. Also, no slowdown on the MWIA and the errors more consistent with a vision problem than guessing from sight words, so you don't have to reduce outside reading, although I would reduce total workload and focus on working on improving her reading.  I would also add in some activities for improving working memory and RAN/RAS and vision therapy, now is the time to do that, spend a few months doing all that, like improving reading speed, it will pay off in the long run.  I would keep up with math but slow down on everything else.  

 

Day 1: Watch my syllable lesson 1 and do all the exercises and nonsense words for that lesson.  (Use Blend Phonics nonsense words and the nonsense word version of the syllable division exercises.)

Day 2: Watch Don Potter's Phonovisual movie with her and go over my one page sound chart.  (Over learning the sounds should help improve reading speed, as will practice with reading nonsense words.)  Do all the nonsense words in for lesson one in version 1 of the nonsense word document, do half of the short vowel syllables.

Day 3: Go over the one page sound chart, do all the nonsense words for lesson 1 in version 2 of the nonsense word document, then go over the one page sound chart again, do remaining half of short vowel syllables in Webster.

Day 4: Syllable Lesson 2, all exercises and readings for it.

Day 5: Add in 2 letter vowel team chart, go over it and the other chart.  Do nonsense words for lesson 2 in version 1 of nonsense word document.  Do half of long vowel syllables in Webster.

Day 6: Both charts, nonsense words for lesson 2, version 2, last half of long vowel syllables in Webster.

Day 7: Syllable Lesson 3, all exercises and readings for it.

Day 8: Charts, lesson 3 version 1 nonsense words, short vowel syllables.

Day 9: Charts, lesson 3 version 2 nonsense words, long vowel syllables.

Day 10: Syllable Lesson 4, all exercises and readings for it.

Day 11: Charts, lesson 4 version 1 nonsense words, short vowel syllables.

Day 12: Charts, lesson 4 version 2 nonsense words, long vowel syllables.

 

Keep going like this, when you run out of regular nonsense words go to the extra version of nonsense words and do 2  - 4 sets a day on the nonsense word days.  I would time them once a week, but also the first time you do a specific type to get a baseline speed for that type. (You already have a baseline for type 1 and type 4, but keep track of the baseline and additional weekly times for 1A, 2B, etc.) I would spend a bit more time on the 2 letter vowel team chart than the normal chart since her type 4 words were slower than the type 1 nonsense words, she probably needs a bit more work getting the 2 letter vowel teams in the brain faster.  Even a bit of a second faster per letter team will help because it is cumulative and you are processing them all at once in parallel for every word.

 

You can time all of the nonsense word reading if it doesn't distract her to be timed and she is motivated by incremental improvement, otherwise just time once a week.

 

When you finish the syllables lessons, replace them with 5 to 10 minutes of reading words and sentences from the 2+ syllable words in the complete Webster's Speller, I like to read 3 or 4 lines of words then 3 or 4 sentences, then words, then sentences, for variety.  Also, try her on some 5 to 7 syllable words early on and if they are really challenging or tiring, save some of the 2 and 3 syllable words to alternate with the ending difficult words.  I put little check marks next to the lines and sentences we have read and keep two sticky tabs to mark my spots.  With younger children I always alternate between easier and harder words but she is old enough you may not need to, and reading fairly well except for speed, although 12th grade level will make things easier and you want to work towards that, too.

 

If you run out of nonsense words, you can recycle them and re-use the ones from version 1, then 2, then the extra words again.  By the time they come around the second time she will have forgotten them. 

 

With the 2 letter vowel chart, I have my student first go over the sounds in color with a key.  When they are doing well with that, I cover the key and have them go over them again.  Then, I have them try the black and white version with the color version covered up.  Anything they miss they get to look at the color version again and work on those for a while, then back to the black and white version.   I just do the main sounds of the letters except I do both sounds of ea and oo. (For example, I just do the "ou" as in out sound of ou/ow and just the long a sound of ei/ey.

 

For working memory you can play games like Simon, I like the 1980's version.  Also, do forward and backward digit span. You can also do this with something she likes, different animals or colors and have her repeat a series in order forward then another series backwards.  There are threads here with more ideas.

 

http://www.thephonic...lesspellsu.html

 


Edited by ElizabethB, 26 October 2017 - 03:18 AM.

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