Jump to content

Menu

FYI:News:102 female inmates are fighting on the front lines of the North Bay wildfires


Arcadia
 Share

Recommended Posts

I wasn’t aware that inmates do firefighting too until this fire. I know inmates work. One inmate suffered smoke inhalation in the ongoing Bear Fire in Santa Cruz Mountains.

 

Information about the program in the news link http://m.sfgate.com/news/article/inmates-firefighters-California-female-women-12287532.php

 

“Among the thousands of firefighters on the front lines of the blazes in Napa and Sonoma counties are 102 female inmates, some of them working 72-hour long shifts in the first days of a firestorm that engulfed California's wine country in flames.

 

These women are part of a partnership program between the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR) and Cal Fire that trains incarcerated men and women who choose to take part in the grueling, dangerous work of fighting fires.

 

The men and women must meet the same criteria with minimum custody statutes and a record of non-violent behavior in prison; they're considered a low-safety risk.

 

Men and women must pass the same physical fitness test that includes being capable of 35 push-ups, 5 pull-ups, 5 chin-ups and a one-mile run in nine minutes or less. And they both perform similar duties on the job.

 

"All of our inmate crews have one very specific job to do," says Bill Sessa, a public information officer with CDCR. "They cut firebreaks. They work under the direction of a Cal Fire captain and their job is to cut fire breaks that either stop the fire or slow it down or change its direction."â€

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am seriously conflicted about the ethics of inmates doing that kind of work. I see the benefits for job training and future employment- maybe; but I still feel a little ick about it. I wonder what they are being paid, what sort of workers' comp is available to them, and what their other choices were and what their lives would have been like if they hadn't signed up for it?

Edited by Paige
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I have some conflicting feelings, but one thing does come back to me. This is a serious act of public service, and it involves intensive training. Maybe this will mean that they can join fire and rescue or first responder groups when they leave prison. I don't want to see any of them hurt. I don't want to see ANY firefighter hurt. But if they know the risks, volunteer for the training, and do an honorable job, then I think what should happen is their slate is wiped clean, and they get a second chance.

 

So often prison is about punishment and not rehabilitation, nor does it help people who already feel no place and connection in the community find that connection. Serving so honorably may be one way to help them feel included and valuable to the community, to settle in to a mindset of positive living. I think that done properly, it could be a good program.

 

 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Samuel Sinyangwe wrote earlier this year about Louisiana's use of prisoner labour. It honestly looks like slavery. I think he did a journalism long piece on it but all I have bookmarked is this article about the twitter thread he did. 

http://www.thefader.com/2017/05/20/activist-samuel-sinyangwe-louisiana-mass-incarceration

 

Just a few days ago, there was some official in an interview complaining that the good workers were being released. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/louisiana-sheriff-steve-prator-prisoners_us_59dfa0bee4b0fdad73b2cded

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wonder what they are being paid, what sort of workers' comp is available to them, and what their other choices were and what their lives would have been like if they hadn't signed up for it?

From the news article, pay is as quoted below but no idea about workers compensation.

“The inmates are paid — $2 for each day in camp and $1 an hour for time on the fire line. The pay is higher than any other inmate job and that's because of the danger on the job.â€

 

ETA:

From Sacramento Bee http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/foon-rhee/article174370641.html

“The average pay for inmate firefighters is $2 a day, and $1 an hour while fighting an active fire. They also earn credits off their sentences – two days for every day served in the fire camps. While state prison department officials say fire duty is an important part of rehabilitation and teaches firefighting skills and teamwork, they also say it isn’t meant to be a vocational training program. They don’t have any data showing that it actually helps ex-offenders get jobs on the outside.â€

 

From NY Times https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/magazine/the-incarcerated-women-who-fight-californias-wildfires.html

“ “Still, when they’re at work, the inmates look like chain gangs without the chains, especially when out working in Malibu, where the average annual household income is $238,000. ‘‘The pay is ridiculous,’’ La’Sonya Edwards, 35, told me during a break from clearing a fire road. ‘‘There are some days we are worn down to the core,’’ she said. ‘‘And this isn’t that different from slave conditions. We need to get paid more for what we do.’’ â€

Edited by Arcadia
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’d worry about the ethics except it specifically says those chose to do it and pass the tests - it was opt in. I would have a very different opinion if it was compulsory. I approve heartily of compulsory labor for inmates, but not of a type that could be life threatening. That has to be a choice, even if you’re incarcerated.

 

Opt-in does not equal free choice. What would opting out mean for the person? Is the inmate fully capable of informed consent or is the opt in a formality for someone in power to get a preferred outcome? Are they opting in based on vague promises that will not be fulfilled later? 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From Business Insider Here's what it's like to be a prison inmate fighting wildfires in California

 

“Another former inmate firefighter, Jacques D’Elia, served in a conservation camp from 2011 to 2013 and told the Marshall Project what it was like for inmates at camp.

 

"I forgot I was incarcerated sometimes. The staff treated you like a human, not a number," D'Elia said. "The boundaries were more relaxed — just a split-rail fence and some out-of-bounds markers, no locks on the doors. All they did was do a 'count' of everyone every two hours."

 

"And the power dynamics and the violence you see on the prison yard, the ‘survival of the fittest’ stuff — that was hardly there at all," D'Elia added. "Fighting fires, man, that is so much safer than being in prison."

 

For his part, Flavorraven said he never faced any serious danger while fighting fires and never saw any of his fellow campers get severely injured. The career firefighters whom they aided in larger fires were usually very friendly and appreciative of the help, the reddit user said. He added that when his camp was fighting a fire, they were treated to meals that included steak, ribs, and waffles.

 

"I've had the ability to choose my own food for a couple of years since getting out but I still salivate at the idea of a fire meal," he said.â€

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a few opinions on prison labor:

 

1. Prison labor should have an emphasis on rehabilitation. If it's not teaching useful job skills (and most prison jobs don't) and can't translate to a job on the outside (and this firefighting gig doesn't unless they move - the department doesn't hire former felons), then it has got to go. I will make a small exception for those jobs which are necessary to run the prison - serving in the cafeteria or laundry, for example - but even then, those jobs should be restricted to newbies and those with life sentences.

 

2. Prison labor should be paid the same as outside labor. This is not something I believe out of compassion, but pragmatics. Underpaying them (or not paying at all, which is the case in some systems) drives down the wages for everybody else. If we don't want them to keep the money over current wages we could require them to bank it until their release (with an exception for sending some as child support or charity).

 

3. Time in education should count as "labor", especially for those who are under a certain age or working for their high school diploma or GED. This goes back to point one.

 

"I forgot I was incarcerated sometimes. The staff treated you like a human, not a number," D'Elia said. "The boundaries were more relaxed — just a split-rail fence and some out-of-bounds markers, no locks on the doors. All they did was do a 'count' of everyone every two hours."

 

There are prison systems that do that with all the inmates, all the time. Norway, for example. There is no reason for us to use this absolutely bass-ackwards system.

 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a few opinions on prison labor:

 

1. Prison labor should have an emphasis on rehabilitation. If it's not teaching useful job skills (and most prison jobs don't) and can't translate to a job on the outside (and this firefighting gig doesn't unless they move - the department doesn't hire former felons), then it has got to go. I will make a small exception for those jobs which are necessary to run the prison - serving in the cafeteria or laundry, for example - but even then, those jobs should be restricted to newbies and those with life sentences.

 

 

 

Are they felons or in on misdemeanors or something less serious? I think that is especially cruel if they are using felons that they know they'd never hire- "Learn a new skill while you're in prison! It will be great for when you get out." "Haha, sucker, we'll pay you $2 an hour as an inmate, but you aren't good enough to actually work for us when you're out. Oh, did you think you could get a real job?"

 

Learning to make furniture is very different than an actual hazardous job with a real possibility of death. They said 5 inmates have died on the job since they started the program and that is low "considering the risks." How many have been killed doing dog grooming or making furniture? Probably 0. 

 

If they only allow inmates in the program who aren't felons, then I'd feel better about it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Side question - Is it different in other states? The same food service provider that served at our local hospitals and schools provided the prison meals too. It was the main cafeteria supplier, multiple private businesses used them as well.

From LA Weekly http://www.laweekly.com/restaurants/how-prison-kitchens-feed-inmates-for-about-one-dollar-per-meal-8258237

“Cooking in Confinement: Inside the Kitchen at Chino Prison

JUNE 8, 2017 | 7:52AM

 

On a recent Friday at around 2 p.m., a handful of inmates — cloaked in aprons, hair nets and gloves — are bustling around the industrial kitchen in Chino’s men’s-only prison, prepping dinner for 3,400 of their fellow prisoners. Using what looks like a canoe paddle, one man stirs rice while a team of two uses a stepstool to dump mountains of grated cheddar cheese into a neighboring vat.

 

There are eight 150-gallon steam kettles lining the industrial kitchen, many of them in use as the team preps the Friday night menu: tamale pie served with coleslaw, pinto beans, Spanish rice and pound cake. A familiar scent of tomato sauce rises in the steam, painting an olfactory picture that varies drastically from the bleak visual one.

...

The California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation (CDCR) spends more than $140 million each year to feed 124,000 inmates across 34 prisons and 43 fire camps. For each general-population inmate with no specific diet requirements, the prison is allocated $3.32 total per day for meals (or $1.10 per meal), which must cover a hot breakfast and dinner and a cold sack lunch. California spends two to three times more on inmate food than do some states, but to put it in perspective, the average cost of a meal at the Los Angeles Unified School District is $1.70, according to the L.A. School Report. For local charter schools, that estimate is closer to $3.20.â€

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

but you guys, read the stuff I posted. They don't want to release people because they're good workers. Once you start making prisons for profit (which they are in the US) the whole system became corrupted. This isn't about teaching life skills or keeping people busy. This is about exploitation. 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not down with paying prisoners the same as outside labor, because prisoners are already receiving quite a bit of other stuff.  My DH used to be a prison guard.  He started out at $8.50 an hour, and had to pay for mortgage, food, transportation, cable and the hospital bill when he got shanked (3 times in 14 yrs.)  All on that $8.50 an hour (he moved up to like $13 by the time he left.)  Whereas the inmates don't have to pay for any of that.

 

Yeah, because they're locked up. They can't pay their mortgage or rent because they live in a cell. They can't pay for transportation because they don't go places. Like, I think "being locked up" obligates the government to pay for their basic needs without stiffing them on their pay - which, by the way, having some cash on the outside reduces recidivism. We should pay them more, even if we require them to bank it, so that they don't go back to prison!

 

(I can buy the argument that they should pay into cable if they want that. And your husband's medical bills should definitely have been covered if he got attacked on the job! WTF.)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are "locked up" because they committed a crime.  Now we can certainly have a discussion about who should or should not be "locked up " based on drug offenses.  But when we are talking about people who have robbed, beat or killed people.....I have no sympathy for people who don't have transportation costs because they are "locked up."  The fact is that if they hadn't victimized someone else, they wouldn't be there.  (again, I am talking about the people who are there because they hurt beat and kill people. )

 

Sure. But they still have basic human needs, and it is the obligation of the government to provide them. And they still deserve a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. To do otherwise is not only inherently unjust, and causes them to be more likely to commit crimes when released - but it harms everybody else who is not in prison.

 

Like I said, this isn't about sympathy. It's about pragmatics. Giving them slave wages means that everybody else's wages go down.

 

At the prison my DH worked at...they weren't in a cell, they were in a dorm.  Rows of bunk beds, like 80 or 90 inmates in the dorm to one guard.  Dorm connected to the day room where the tv and stuff was.

 

Sounds like the worst possible situation if we want to make responsible people who will not commit more crimes in the future.

 

Yeah, he had to pay his own medical bills.  I mean, he had insurance, but the coverage was terrible (I am sure it's worse now) so all the co-pays and deductibles and stuff...yeah.  Just like as if he had hurt himself at home, no workman's comp or anything like that.

 

That's shitty. Like, that's the shittiest thing I've ever heard.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am seriously conflicted about the ethics of inmates doing that kind of work. I see the benefits for job training and future employment- maybe; but I still feel a little ick about it. I wonder what they are being paid, what sort of workers' comp is available to them, and what their other choices were and what their lives would have been like if they hadn't signed up for it?

 

It's useless for job training because their prison records prevent them from being hired later.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am seriously conflicted about the ethics of inmates doing that kind of work. I see the benefits for job training and future employment- maybe; but I still feel a little ick about it. I wonder what they are being paid, what sort of workers' comp is available to them, and what their other choices were and what their lives would have been like if they hadn't signed up for it?

 

They get the institutional maximum $1/hour while actively fighting fires plus $2/day while in camp. It's coveted work because you get to be outside, but prison labor pay is a while discussion of its own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prison jobs give inmates something to do.  When a prisoner is not in school and doesn't have a job, they get bored pretty quick.  And boredom can quickly cause problems.  A prison job doesn't have to focus on rehabilitation in order to have benefits. 

 

I am not down with paying prisoners the same as outside labor, because prisoners are already receiving quite a bit of other stuff.  My DH used to be a prison guard.  He started out at $8.50 an hour, and had to pay for mortgage, food, transportation, cable and the hospital bill when he got shanked (3 times in 14 yrs.)  All on that $8.50 an hour (he moved up to like $13 by the time he left.)  Whereas the inmates don't have to pay for any of that.  In fact, my DH had to QUIT in order to be able to get his bachelor's degree, because mandatory OT meant he couldn't schedule classes.  Criminals were able to get their bachelor's for free, COs can't even get theirs because they have to work too much.  Yeah, I have NO problem paying a prisoner separate wages.

 

The problem there is underpaying and not providing adequate benefits to the CO's, not whether or not inmates are paid minimum wage.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

but you guys, read the stuff I posted. They don't want to release people because they're good workers. Once you start making prisons for profit (which they are in the US) the whole system became corrupted. This isn't about teaching life skills or keeping people busy. This is about exploitation.

Ummmm, â€they†don’t get to decide.

 

Sentences have limits. Now, I concede that they might have some say in early release/parole documentation, but prisoners are not prisoners for an infinite amount of time until â€they†decide they’ve gotten enough labor out of them.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ummmm, â€they†don’t get to decide.

 

Sentences have limits. Now, I concede that they might have some say in early release/parole documentation, but prisoners are not prisoners for an infinite amount of time until â€they†decide they’ve gotten enough labor out of them.

 

Unfortunately, private prisons can game the system so they do get to decide when someone is released, regardless of when their sentence ended. This article, by a journalist who went undercover as a guard in a private prison in Louisiana, discusses how the prison kept an inmate locked up for a full YEAR beyond the end of his sentence. Management didn't want an empty bed, because empty beds aren't profitable, so they simply refused to help him find somewhere to go when he was released, and according to state law he couldn't be released without an in-state address to go to. The only reason he finally got out was because another prisoner told his own lawyer about it and the lawyer looked into it and got help for the guy. Otherwise he'd probably still be there, making money for the owners.

 

The article is very well written, and the nature and extent of the corruption and abuse he describes are truly shocking. Definitely worth a read.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This happened with Canyon Fire 2 in Anaheim. I have yet to see an update for it: http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-canyon-fire-contained-inmate-searching-20171017-story.html

No news yet. This link has a photo of Armando Castillo http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/10/17/still-no-sign-of-inmate-firefighter/

“The search continued Tuesday for a prisoner suspected of walking away from an inmate firefighting crew helping to battle the Canyon Fire 2 near Peters Canyon Regional Park in Orange.

 

Armando Castillo, 31, was last seen at 4:45 p.m. Sunday before the group of inmates to which he was assigned returned to Prado Conservation Camp in San Bernardino County, according to Krissi Khokhobashvili of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation.â€

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's with all the cry-babying about prisoners working? Having been an employee in a prison and two jails, it's considered a privilege to get to work - one which is taken away as a form of punishment for misbehavior. Inmates sign up to work and get very upset if they can't for some reason (e.g.; not being able to work in the kitchen because of a health condition). Imagine the sheer tedium of whiling away the endless days in jail with nothing productive to do. They would probably work for free! 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I watched a documentary about this ages ago. The inmate they interviewed said it was the first time in their life they were thanked, praised and treated like a hero instead of being belittled and looked down on. It did wonders for their self esteem and made them feel for the first time like they could do something good.

 

Could it be subject to abuse? Of course? But honestly I think being involved in work and positive stuff is generally better than just sitting in prison with nothing to do or think about.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

but you guys, read the stuff I posted. They don't want to release people because they're good workers. Once you start making prisons for profit (which they are in the US) the whole system became corrupted. This isn't about teaching life skills or keeping people busy. This is about exploitation. 

 

:iagree: 

Another good source is the book, Are Prisons Obsolete by Angela Davis.  Here is an excerpt:

 

"In this brilliant, thoroughly researched book. Angela Davis swings a wrecking ball Into the racist and sexist underpinnings of the American prison system. Her arguments are well wrought and restrained, leveling an unflinching critique of how and why more than 2 million Americans are presently behind bars, and the corporations who profit from their suffering.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to say as far as pay goes my view might be coloured by the fact that the majority of firefighters outside metro here are all volunteers. They don't get paid. They don't even get decent workers comp for illness or injury. And they clean up after accidents, so rescues etc etc.

 

So long as the inmate fireys are truly voluntary not compelled I don't see the need for payment for the work. That's totally separate to any other kind of prison work program of course.

 

I also think safety considerations should be as good as for any other volunteer firefighter. And I have mixed feelings about tying a reduced sentence to participation because there's a very fine line between incentivisation and compulsion.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't disagree but if NON criminals aren't getting paid adequately based on the requirements of the job, why would a criminal?

 

Because by underpaying criminals, we are dropping the wages for the entire workforce. If you want to have higher wages, then you need to ensure that companies cannot outsource to labor that they pay at less than a sixth of minimum wage per hour.

 

Like, seriously, stop thinking about "those criminals" and start thinking about people on the outside.

 

If you were a big company, and you sold furniture, which workers would you prefer? The ones that cost $2 an hour and who can't complain about conditions, or the ones who cost $8 an hour?

 

The wages for everybody need to FAIR. Otherwise, the wages for everybody go down.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to say as far as pay goes my view might be coloured by the fact that the majority of firefighters outside metro here are all volunteers. They don't get paid. They don't even get decent workers comp for illness or injury. And they clean up after accidents, so rescues etc etc.

So long as the inmate fireys are truly voluntary not compelled I don't see the need for payment for the work. That's totally separate to any other kind of prison work program of course.

Australia is helping in the wine country fires here too

“CAL FIRE

October 15 at 6:11pm ·

Thank you to all our fire partners from across the U.S & Australia that came to California's aide during our greatest time of need. We are grateful to have such a strong mutual aide system to ensure the safety of the public.†https://www.facebook.com/CALFIRE/photos/a.157450722389.116355.113654417389/10155844919152390/?type=3

 

“CAL FIRE

Yesterday at 5:52pm ·

A glimpse of the damage and devastation at the height of the fire siege from October 8 to October 15. An army of firefighters from out of state and Australia came to California’s aide to help battle 21 large fires and quickly contain 250 new fires.â€

https://www.facebook.com/CALFIRE/photos/a.157450722389.116355.113654417389/10155852904532390/?type=3

 

Because by underpaying criminals, we are dropping the wages for the entire workforce. If you want to have higher wages, then you need to ensure that companies cannot outsource to labor that they pay at less than a sixth of minimum wage per hour.

The Sonoma County firefighters are volunteers. So the inmates are likely better paid than the firefighters.

 

“The Sonoma County Fire and Emergency Services Department is comprised of 15 volunteer fire companies, responding to over 1000 calls per year in excess of 600 square miles in the unincorporated area. The Department provides a full range of emergency and non-emergency services for residents and visitors to Sonoma County through five divisions; Administration, Fire Operations and Training, Fire Prevention, Hazardous Materials and Emergency Management†http://sonomacounty.ca.gov/Fire-and-Emergency-Services/

 

“Volunteer Firefighters assist their communities by providing support with emergency and non-emergency services.

 

These volunteers are fully trained and certified to manage a variety of emergencies: structure and wildland fires, vehicle accidents, medical emergencies, and hazardous materials spills. Volunteers also perform rescue duties during natural disasters, including such as floods, earthquakes, and mudslides. Volunteer Firefighters receive ongoing training in the latest emergency response techniques and technology.

 

Volunteer Firefighters operate and maintain the fire station’s firefighting equipment, and keep the station ready to react to any emergency situation in the community it serves. In addition to their assigned hours at the station, Volunteer Firefighters are on call for emergency response 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

 

In addition, special non-emergency volunteer positions are available such as; administrative support, mechanic and fundraiser.

 

When a fire blazes or disaster threatens, Volunteer Firefighters answer the call. Do you have what it takes to meet the challenge?†http://sonomacounty.ca.gov/_templates_portal/Service.aspx?id=2147495876

 

ETA:

For Napa Country, out of 16 fire stations 9 are manned by volunteers, and 7 are manned by paid staff. http://www.countyofnapa.org/CountyFire/Stations/

Edited by Arcadia
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, great, but are all the cabinet makers in this country volunteers? All the call center representatives? All the goatherds? (Yes, some prisons raise goats and sell the milk to supermarkets.)

 

(Also, there really ought to be enough money in this nation to pay all the firefighters and stop relying on volunteers and prisoners.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, great, but are all the cabinet makers in this country volunteers? All the call center representatives? All the goatherds? (Yes, some prisons raise goats and sell the milk to supermarkets.)

 

(Also, there really ought to be enough money in this nation to pay all the firefighters and stop relying on volunteers and prisoners.)

That's why I specified only in relation to firefighting not other jobs. There are a lot of reasons people will volunteer to firefight or do flood prevention erc that don't apply to a manufacturing job that's for profit.

 

I'm not sure if you are in Aus which is where I am but to move to an all paid firefighting force would be absolutely huge. There is a mini brigade in almost every rural town with sometimes up to 50 members. They train weekly in summer and fortnightly in winter, do admin, their own fundraising often, sometimes they will be attending multiple call outs a week sometimes a month will go by without one. To move all this to a paid basis would be absolutely massive. I have no idea what the situation is in US of course.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, great, but are all the cabinet makers in this country volunteers? All the call center representatives? All the goatherds? (Yes, some prisons raise goats and sell the milk to supermarkets.)

 

(Also, there really ought to be enough money in this nation to pay all the firefighters and stop relying on volunteers and prisoners.)

What about if say for theft there was some kind of repayment system? Prisoners get paid a fair wage for work but a percentage goes into repaying the value of what they stole? Overcomes the wage dropping issue, provides a sense of overcoming their past through restitution and maybe developing some kind of work skills. So many employers say the skills they want are things like turning up on time, working a full day, and good interpersonal skills which can be developed on any job really. Far better than sitting around totally bored anyway.

 

Of course this doesn't work for other crimes though.

 

I guess the other thing is are employers going to choose to employ inmates when the wage is the same and there are already more workers than jobs?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's why I specified only in relation to firefighting not other jobs. There are a lot of reasons people will volunteer to firefight or do flood prevention erc that don't apply to a manufacturing job that's for profit.

 

I'm not sure if you are in Aus which is where I am but to move to an all paid firefighting force would be absolutely huge. There is a mini brigade in almost every rural town with sometimes up to 50 members. They train weekly in summer and fortnightly in winter, do admin, their own fundraising often, sometimes they will be attending multiple call outs a week sometimes a month will go by without one. To move all this to a paid basis would be absolutely massive. I have no idea what the situation is in US of course.

 

In my area of the US, fire companies are almost all volunteers.  Three live in my house.  It's the same as you describe.

I also grew up with many firefighters, paid and volunteer.

 

My daughter wants to become a paid firefighter (which would require a commute.)  She also wants to remain a volunteer firefighter in her community.  Of course I want her to make a comfortable living, but she's going to fight fires (and work search and rescue, and extract people from vehicles, and direct medivac landings, and fill swimming pools...) whether someone pays her or not.

 

In the U.S., there are over twice as many volunteer firefighters as there are career firefighters. (I don't know how prisoners are accounted in that.) More than half are over 40.  The average salary for career firefighters is around $50,000.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because by underpaying criminals, we are dropping the wages for the entire workforce. If you want to have higher wages, then you need to ensure that companies cannot outsource to labor that they pay at less than a sixth of minimum wage per hour.

 

Like, seriously, stop thinking about "those criminals" and start thinking about people on the outside.

 

If you were a big company, and you sold furniture, which workers would you prefer? The ones that cost $2 an hour and who can't complain about conditions, or the ones who cost $8 an hour?

 

The wages for everybody need to FAIR. Otherwise, the wages for everybody go down.

I'm curious if there are really enough criminals out there working to cause a shift in the pay of everyone. In my state I think the criminals pick up trash and make license plates. Don't know if they do other things. But those two tasks are things that no one else does so I don't see it impacting wages.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious if there are really enough criminals out there working to cause a shift in the pay of everyone. In my state I think the criminals pick up trash and make license plates. Don't know if they do other things. But those two tasks are things that no one else does so I don't see it impacting wages.

 

The best I could find is that 30% of California's wildlands firefighters are prisoners.  But not all firefighters are wildlands/forest firefighters.  I don't know if seasonal wildlands firefighters, who could live in other states, are counted in that population.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious if there are really enough criminals out there working to cause a shift in the pay of everyone. In my state I think the criminals pick up trash and make license plates. Don't know if they do other things. But those two tasks are things that no one else does so I don't see it impacting wages.

 

So here are a couple of articles on the prison strike last year and a few from earlier. The prison-industrial complex brings in nearly $500 million a year, and prisoners are employed in all the fields I mentioned and more.

 

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/10/prison-labor-strike-history-heather-ann-thompson/

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/prison-strike-inmate-labor-work/

https://www.salon.com/2015/02/22/9_surprising_industries_getting_filthy_rich_from_mass_incarceration_partner/

 

(The last article really is from Alternet, sorry, but in this case their facts are sound.)

 

As for how many people are imprisoned in the US, the answer is almost 1% of the population. That's a lot of people. For comparison, only about .3% of the US population are doctors, which is the only job I could find an easy percentage for without having to do my own math.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's with all the cry-babying about prisoners working? 

 

It's because prisoners are considered a vulnerable population. They are more likely to be mistreated and exploited than the general population and have less power to protect themselves, resist, or seek redress. I don't care what they've done in the past- they are still people who deserve to be treated with dignity. They deserve extra precautions and extra care when considering work programs because of their vulnerable status. I'm not opposed to prison work programs if they are done well. I am uncomfortable with work programs that are inherently dangerous for prisoners. 

 

Pay and benefits for guards and other people who work in prisons are separate issues. I agree that there are so many problems with how we hire and treat people who work with prisoners. That doesn't mean we exploit prisoners because it sucks to be a guard. It should mean we make things better for both groups.

 

IMO, if our goal is to ever release people from prison, then we need to be sure we treat them fairly and help them to succeed when they get out rather than sending them to a "How to become a better criminal with a worse attitude" camp. I realize that I'm far more liberal than most in this area, but I think punishment is irrelevant in this context. Punishment doesn't work to change behavior for toddlers, teenagers, or prisoners. A punishment based prison philosophy may be appropriate for people with life sentences who will never have to function in society again. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As long as this is of their own free will, then I think it is great! To rehabilitate someone, they need a purpose and goals and the ability to have a life. These women should have no trouble finding employment when they get out. And I for one would be happy to let them out with time served after this.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From the news article, pay is as quoted below but no idea about workers compensation.

“The inmates are paid — $2 for each day in camp and $1 an hour for time on the fire line. The pay is higher than any other inmate job and that's because of the danger on the job.â€

 

ETA:

From Sacramento Bee http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/foon-rhee/article174370641.html

“The average pay for inmate firefighters is $2 a day, and $1 an hour while fighting an active fire. They also earn credits off their sentences – two days for every day served in the fire camps. While state prison department officials say fire duty is an important part of rehabilitation and teaches firefighting skills and teamwork, they also say it isn’t meant to be a vocational training program. They don’t have any data showing that it actually helps ex-offenders get jobs on the outside.â€

 

From NY Times https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/31/magazine/the-incarcerated-women-who-fight-californias-wildfires.html

“ “Still, when they’re at work, the inmates look like chain gangs without the chains, especially when out working in Malibu, where the average annual household income is $238,000. ‘‘The pay is ridiculous,’’ La’Sonya Edwards, 35, told me during a break from clearing a fire road. ‘‘There are some days we are worn down to the core,’’ she said. ‘‘And this isn’t that different from slave conditions. We need to get paid more for what we do.’’ â€

No sympathy. It’s voluntary. She can sit in prison, in the A/C, and not have to do it.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They get the institutional maximum $1/hour while actively fighting fires plus $2/day while in camp. It's coveted work because you get to be outside, but prison labor pay is a while discussion of its own.

This AND gain time, the single most valuable thing one can obtain while an inmate.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think programs like this can work well, sometimes even when the people involved won't be able to work in the same area later.  The effect of the type of work on the person can be significant.  We used to have prison farm programs here that were shut down largely because they said that there weren't jobs in agriculture.  A lot of people were upset though, because they felt that the work itself was healing.

 

I think firefighting work like this could certainly fall into that category, so long as it's run carefully so that people are not pressured into dangerous work.

 

As far as pay - my inclination would be to say that they pay is notionally at the same level as other workers of the same type, but that room and board are reasonable deductions, to a point.  Being a prisoner should not mean that you have no obligation to support yourself like everyone else does.  I'd like some capacity for saving to be considered as well in that, maybe in some sort of a program that rewards it.  Maybe for saving a certain amount, room and board costs could be reduced similarly.  

 

I don't think prisons should be for-profit.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And don't forget room and board provided on the state's fine while incarcerated. Or do they pay that back when released?

 

They do not.  Some county jails and some prisons charge small fees.  A county jail nearby charges inmates $3 per day.  However, if they gain the status of trustee, which is the status of most, if not all, inmates incarcerated to be able to work on a program, then they get a daily pay rate, plus gain time, and are NOT charged this daily fee.

 

Again these work programs are voluntary.  They have to request to be a part, and pass both criminal, medical and sometimes certain physical standards to be able to participate.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It isn't just rural areas that have volunteer firefighters either.  I lived in a very urban area of Washington DC suburbs and our local area was served by a volunteer firefight company. 

 

As to building furniture= they build furniture for the state offices.  Not for general sale to the public.  I am happy to have my state save money and also give prisoners a productive way to spend their time. 

 

One really good article I read said that we do not need illegal immigrants for almost anything except possibly agriculture= what we need is to have companies start hiring all the people they reject right now - people with criminal records, single mom with kids who need flexible schedule, older workers who are often overlooked, people with disabilities that may need some flexibility with both doctor visits and with accommodations at  work, etc, etc.  A very large portion of that group is the ex-felons.  I think most employers would take a second look at a ex felon if they had done voluntary fire work. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...