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When a friend owes you money


Scarlett
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My Dh is close friends with a contractor. He makes a decent living....employees a part time worker pretty steadily.....and last year when Dh was laid off, Dh worked some for him. He has worked a lot for him over the years. Long before I met Dh. They have been friends for 20 years.

 

So one of the jobs he and Dh worked on almost a year ago paid very slow.....I think it took 90 days for the friend to collect. But he still hasn't paid Dh. Dh has mentioned it to him via text at least 6 times.

 

It is $1000. This makes me just.....furious. It makes me not be able to stomach anything about this couple. Dh seems to not be very bothered by it.

 

They are like brothers. They share tools and equipment....he borrowed dhs tractor for a few months and Dh has had a trailer of the friends for about 6 months. He called Dh and said he needs it for a job he is doing and Dh is taking it to him this morning. The trailer was in major need of repairs...Dh took all the floor off and used scrap from a deck he built to rebuild the floor of the trailer. And a wheel bearing went out and he repaired that. He did all of that for free which seems sort of fair to me because he had it for so long. He had to replace a tire but he has added that on to what the friend owes him and the friend seems cool with that but of course he hasn't paid him.

 

Ugh. I know I am rambling, but should I just let this go for the sake of my relationship with Dh who obviously values the friendship more than the money? Or do I keep insisting he collect money that is owed to our FAMILY because it isn't some favor Dh did for his friend, it was work that was suppose to pay.

 

I am really torn.

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You let it go for the sake of the friendship. Put it in dh's hands and if he collects it good, if not oh well.

 

But you do need to talk with your dh about future events. For example, your dh should not have spent family money on a tire for his friend with the idea that he's going to be paid back. His friend has shown him that he can't trust that he'll be paid back so your dh needs to not be owed more by this friend because that takes away from your family.

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I think for the sake of your own peace of mind you have to let it go.

 

A few years ago my husband did some work for an organization and was owed money for it. He never collected it. It was far more than $1000 and we could have used it. But, for whatever reason he didn't pursue it.  I made a big money mistake that cost us too.  He hasn't nagged me about that.   

 

If your husband has texted him 6 times and he hasn't been paid, yet he still maintains the friendship, I think it's obvious he is not going to pursue it.   

 

:grouphug:

 

 

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You let it go for the sake of the friendship. Put it in dh's hands and if he collects it good, if not oh well.

 

But you do need to talk with your dh about future events. For example, your dh should not have spent family money on a tire for his friend with the idea that he's going to be paid back. His friend has shown him that he can't trust that he'll be paid back so your dh needs to not be owed more by this friend because that takes away from your family.

Right. In dhs defense about the tire he was stranded in Lowes parking lot an hour from home and the trailer was already loaded with a huge amount of lumber.

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You let it go.  And I say that only because you are giving the gift of peace to yourself.  You can't force this friend's action.  I mean, you can, but at a large emotional expense and long lasting results.  So in your mind you make it a gift.  If it is paid, great, if not, you still have peace.  And no matter what, you still have the foresight not to enter into another financial relationship with this person.

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Yes, you let it go. You may have seen this situation as employer / employee, but it's clear your DH views it as the thing you do to help out a friend who is like a brother to you. I would bet your DH figures that it all shakes out even in the end given that they share tools and equipment the way they do.

He does think that. He has said that exact thing to me.

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Yup, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s between DH and his friend, at this point. I think we all keep a kind of running total of favours and so on, to keep that balance and make sure weĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re not being taken advantage of, and vice versa. It just sucks that the job was slow-paying and you didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t get the money when you (perhaps) needed it the most.

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Yup, itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s between DH and his friend, at this point. I think we all keep a kind of running total of favours and so on, to keep that balance and make sure weĂ¢â‚¬â„¢re not being taken advantage of, and vice versa. It just sucks that the job was slow-paying and you didnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t get the money when you (perhaps) needed it the most.

Yes and by the time he did get paid Dh had a job again and I feel the friend just thought Dh didn't need it. If only......

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He does think that. He has said that exact thing to me.

 

 

I kind of line up with your dh's thinking on this one.  With this kind of friendship, it should be reciprocal in that your friend has your dh's back when he needs it too.  I think the fact that you think that money should be part of that "having your dh's back" is what has you upset.  I see it both ways....I let very few friends into that tight circle of friendship, but those that are there, I would do anything for.  

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I'd let it go, or at least try to. You can't get your husband to care, and you can't get this friend to pay you back any faster. So drop it, focus on something else.

 

Though it's not exactly this situation, this sort of thing is exactly why, btw, I never lend money to friends. If they need money, I give it to them. If I get paid back, great! If not, well, it was a gift.

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I would let it go this time. But, it is okay to talk with dh about never again because for you guys $1000 is a lot of money, and this is essentially family money that you need. There can be no habit of your husband working for friend in friend's for-profit business and not get paid.

 

We do not do "business" with friends. We were burnt in the early years of our marriage.

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I would let it go but discuss it with DH for the future.  Was it really clear at the time the DH was supposed to get paid?  Men sometimes are really bad about that among friends, especially friends they share labor with.  They don't feel comfortable saying, this is a bigger job so I need to get paid for it.  Dh has done things for free that shocked me a bit.  But just tell DH that from now on you just want to know, and if he is legit expecting to get paid, he needs to follow up.  If not, recognize that's his choice and don't nag him about it.  (Why would you do that?  That's a lot of work!)  But if you nag, he will avoid telling you upfront.

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Was it the friend's plan to pay your dh at the time?

 

If so, then instead of sending texts, I suppose you could make up an official "bill" and send it in the mail, with a polite note (from your dh) saying something like:  "I don't know if you're in a position to pay me for this job we did last year.  If you are, here is the official paperwork.  If you're not, no hard feelings."

 

Then, completely let it go, assume he won't be paid, and don't bring it up again.  

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I would let it go but discuss it with DH for the future. Was it really clear at the time the DH was supposed to get paid? Men sometimes are really bad about that among friends, especially friends they share labor with. They don't feel comfortable saying, this is a bigger job so I need to get paid for it. Dh has done things for free that shocked me a bit. But just tell DH that from now on you just want to know, and if he is legit expecting to get paid, he needs to follow up. If not, recognize that's his choice and don't nag him about it. (Why would you do that? That's a lot of work!) But if you nag, he will avoid telling you upfront.

Oh it was absolutely a paid job. They were doing a lot of work around that time. The friend paid dh for a lot of other jobs but not this one. Because like I said they were so slow pain. It was a big deal job because they had to work nights to complete it. It was bathroom tear outs in a lawyers office so they could not do it during the day .

 

The friend has acknowledged in text that he owes the money to DH .

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And I have discussed it with DH a lot over the course of these last 10 months or so . It has been a source of contention between us .

 

And now DSS 16 needs a vehicle to drive because he just got his license. And that thousand dollars would go along ways toward buying this kid something these into drive .

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It's not your place to have anything to do with it, honestly.

 

Your DH did the work for his friend, so he gets to decide whether he cares if he is paid for it.  It's between him and the friend, not between you and him and the friend.  

 

That said, I also don't loan money.  We give it if we have it to give and want to give it; if not, we don't.  Loaning just doesn't work well between friends and family - it puts some sort of distance between us, and creates resentment when (inevitably) it isn't paid back.

 

My dad and I loaned each other money constantly, because he was paid at a different time of the month than DH and I were; it was a running thing, though, and because we loaned money to each other (20 bucks here or there, mostly) there was not a power differential.  We kept track of it but not too conscientiously.

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If they're "like brothers" I'd let it go. I would pray about it, and never mention it again. I would not "lend" them money, but either gift it or not give it at all. I agree with Dave Ramsey that eating around a table with people you owe or who owe you, it just makes dinner taste bad. Let it go. 

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It's not your place to have anything to do with it, honestly.

 

Your DH did the work for his friend, so he gets to decide whether he cares if he is paid for it.  It's between him and the friend, not between you and him and the friend.  

 

That said, I also don't loan money.  We give it if we have it to give and want to give it; if not, we don't.  Loaning just doesn't work well between friends and family - it puts some sort of distance between us, and creates resentment when (inevitably) it isn't paid back.

 

 

 

Well, it absolutely is between her and DH.  When one of us (me or DH) does something that affects the family, you're darn right we are going to have a discussion about it.  If my DH suddenly decides he doesn't need to get paid for something I have a right to converse with him about it and discuss my feelings with him.  That is absolutely my place.  Money that DH makes is not just his money, it is income for our family.

 

Now, if DH wants to stand by that position, I then have to decide if I want to let it go or if it is worth continuing harassment.  That is what Red has to decide.  

 

To your second point about loaning money, that is exactly our position.  If we have money to give, we give it.  If not, we don't.  Loans among family and friends almost never work out well.

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And I have discussed it with DH a lot over the course of these last 10 months or so . It has been a source of contention between us .

 

And now DSS 16 needs a vehicle to drive because he just got his license. And that thousand dollars would go along ways toward buying this kid something these into drive .

 

If it were me personally, I would give it one more convo "Are you going to take care of this or not? At this point I just need to know." and then let it go.

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And I have discussed it with DH a lot over the course of these last 10 months or so . It has been a source of contention between us .

 

And now DSS 16 needs a vehicle to drive because he just got his license. And that thousand dollars would go along ways toward buying this kid something these into drive .

 

One more conversation, then - "Listen, I need to know if you intend to get that money back. It's really bothering me that you say you will, and you don't do it. If you don't intend to, then just let me know. I also need you to promise me that you won't lend more than $xxxx of our time, supplies, or money again, because we did need that money."

 

And then drop it. The only way I can see that you can get this cash back is to take the guy to small claims court, and that seems like a very bad idea if you and your husband disagree.

 

I know you needed the money. I know you could use it now. It sucks that things shook out this way - but it's done. Time to forgive and forget.

 

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They are like brothers.  They share tools and equipment.  You have to reframe it in your thinking to "family" even though it grates.  I am assuming that your dh figures that if his friend had it, he would pay it.  Or maybe he's mentally charging six months rent on that trailer you dh has had.  What else has he loaned dh?  How much would it be to rent or buy those items?  You might think about how much your dh owes the friend, too, and maybe that will make you less mad.

 

To quote Frankie Heck, "You do for family."  I think this counts.  

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This is a tough one.

 

On one hand - friendship, brotherhood. Give and take.

 

But on the other hand, my brother is a small business owner. He contracts out to larger businesses, whose standard pay-time on invoices is 90 days after job completion. But my brotherĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s employees still get paid bi-weekly for their time, no matter what! Employees are not supposed to be the ones taking the risk on if/when theyĂ¢â‚¬â„¢ll get paid! ThatĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s on the business owner!

 

$1000 is not pocket change. I could see letting it go for $200 or less, but $1000 buys a lot of groceries!

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My husband would do the same thing with his close (in some cases, even, not so close) friends. As long as there is give and take, and it all works out to roughly equal over time, it's fine with me. If it were extremely one-sided, I'd encourage DH to end the relationship, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

I figure that whatever wealth we have coming to us will come to us. If it misses us, then no big deal. For a large sum of money like that that we were expecting, I'd be a bit disappointed for a few days, but then I'd just write it off. I wouldn't want to risk DH's friendship over it. 

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Ouch. I think it's kind of weird the brother thing excuses it. Don't call it a paid job if it's not a paid job. Simple. I would be so irked. But I don't think I always handle things well.

 

I would ask my dh to mention it in person. Texting is not the same.

 

My dh is waiting for a response from someone to look at our non functional car. It's been months. I asked dh to ask about it in person. He says he's too busy. This kind of crap irks me. A spouse not following up on stuff and the other spouse left feeling helpless because it's not their place.

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And I have discussed it with DH a lot over the course of these last 10 months or so . It has been a source of contention between us .

 

And now DSS 16 needs a vehicle to drive because he just got his license. And that thousand dollars would go along ways toward buying this kid something these into drive .

I absolutely understand your frustration, and it makes perfect sense to me that you hate the thought of going out of your own pocket to put that $1000 toward your dss's car when you know your dh's friend should be giving that money to you.

 

If your dh and his friend have a long history, maybe there have been situations where the other guy has been on the short end of the stick, so that's why your dh is hesitant to insist on repayment this time. I think you have said in the past that your dh was terrible with money before the two of you got married, so I have to wonder if the friend has helped him out here and there over the years.

 

Whatever the case, I don't blame you for being annoyed with your dh -- but have you asked him to explain his specific reasons for not asking for the money? "He's my friend," isn't really an acceptable explanation in this case, not only because you need the money, but also because a true friend would have immediately repaid the $1000... unless the friend has loaned your dh money in the past and hasn't worried about getting it back.

 

I'm just wondering if there's more to the story than your dh has told you. (I'm not saying your dh is lying to you -- I'm just thinking he might not have thought to get more specific in his explanation because he figures friends do things like this for each other.)

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I don't know what the answer is.  DH was owed some money from a client last year and didn't get paid.  The client died last year without paying, now, it was partially DH's fault because he didn't invoice him, it was just understood that the amount was paid each year, so DH let it go too long.

 

The brother is now in charge of the account but DH feels really funny about billing him, so he is letting it go.  Thankfully, it was just time, no actually loss of a commodity on our end.

 

Sorry about your situation.

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They are like brothers. They share tools and equipment. You have to reframe it in your thinking to "family" even though it grates. I am assuming that your dh figures that if his friend had it, he would pay it. Or maybe he's mentally charging six months rent on that trailer you dh has had. What else has he loaned dh? How much would it be to rent or buy those items? You might think about how much your dh owes the friend, too, and maybe that will make you less mad.

 

To quote Frankie Heck, "You do for family." I think this counts.

No more than he would owe dh for the tractor of ours he borrowed. And dh improved the trailer significantly.

 

Dh has helped them out with repairs to their home many time without expecting to be paid. But a job for the business is different.

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Let it go. Being angry doesnĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t do you any good. I donĂ¢â‚¬â„¢t agree that he owes money to your family. ItĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s not a regular employer/employee situation, and itĂ¢â‚¬â„¢s between your DH and his friend to work out the details.

 

It is an employer: employee thing. What do you say it isn't?

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I absolutely understand your frustration, and it makes perfect sense to me that you hate the thought of going out of your own pocket to put that $1000 toward your dss's car when you know your dh's friend should be giving that money to you.

 

If your dh and his friend have a long history, maybe there have been situations where the other guy has been on the short end of the stick, so that's why your dh is hesitant to insist on repayment this time. I think you have said in the past that your dh was terrible with money before the two of you got married, so I have to wonder if the friend has helped him out here and there over the years.

 

Whatever the case, I don't blame you for being annoyed with your dh -- but have you asked him to explain his specific reasons for not asking for the money? "He's my friend," isn't really an acceptable explanation in this case, not only because you need the money, but also because a true friend would have immediately repaid the $1000... unless the friend has loaned your dh money in the past and hasn't worried about getting it back.

 

I'm just wondering if there's more to the story than your dh has told you. (I'm not saying your dh is lying to you -- I'm just thinking he might not have thought to get more specific in his explanation because he figures friends do things like this for each other.)

He has asked him for the money. Many times. At this point dh asks me what else he can do that won't cause a rift.

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He pays him and then 1099s him.

 

If it helps to ease your resentment any--you can remember that $1000 would be a lot less than $1000 spending money by the time self-employment and other taxes were paid on it. 

 

Do you have any idea of why the contractor was so long at getting paid himself?  Sometimes the property owner with withhold payment to make sure that subcontractors are being paid.  I wonder if the property owner had concerns that they subcontractors were not getting paid.

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He has asked him for the money. Many times. At this point dh asks me what else he can do that won't cause a rift.

 

There is your answer. The relationship is worth more than $1000 to him. Let it go. And stop thinking every time a new expense comes up, "If we only had that $1000 this would be easier." I get the frustration. I once lent my brother $450 that he was supposed to pay back the next month. He spent 10 months paying off that little debt and even going further into debt with me (I paid for some desperately needed prescriptions). In his mind, he paid it in the end, no problem. In my mind, it was very much taking advantage of me to not pay me back when he said he would. And he would go out spending money on having fun instead of paying me back. I was resentful. In the end, it didn't do any good to sit around being pissy about it. I caused myself a lot of angst. But I also learned from it and won't put myself in that position again. So that's my advice. Learn from this, but let it go.

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But the person who would be the employee doesn't see it that way.

 

Question....Would this payment be a regular employee check, like that you guys would have to pay taxes on? I am asking because it seems like with the length of time this has been....taxes would be complicated on both sides? But, I don't know how construction jobs handle pay that is done on a per job basis.

Dh has done it all his life. There is nothing complicated about it. He pays Dh for work and then at the end of the year he sends Dh a 1099.

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If it helps to ease your resentment any--you can remember that $1000 would be a lot less than $1000 spending money by the time self-employment and other taxes were paid on it.

 

Do you have any idea of why the contractor was so long at getting paid himself? Sometimes the property owner with withhold payment to make sure that subcontractors are being paid. I wonder if the property owner had concerns that they subcontractors were not getting paid.

Actually on this particular job the friend was the subcontractor. It was a huge job.

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There is your answer. The relationship is worth more than $1000 to him. Let it go. And stop thinking every time a new expense comes up, "If we only had that $1000 this would be easier." I get the frustration. I once lent my brother $450 that he was supposed to pay back the next month. He spent 10 months paying off that little debt and even going further into debt with me (I paid for some desperately needed prescriptions). In his mind, he paid it in the end, no problem. In my mind, it was very much taking advantage of me to not pay me back when he said he would. And he would go out spending money on having fun instead of paying me back. I was resentful. In the end, it didn't do any good to sit around being pissy about it. I caused myself a lot of angst. But I also learned from it and won't put myself in that position again. So that's my advice. Learn from this, but let it go.

Yes I think you are right.

 

I have given my brother a lot of money in years past. My mind set was gift not loan so I never was resentful.

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I think you're probably going to have to let it go, but there is one other option if you're up to it. You could go to the friend yourself and say, "Hey, dh thinks of you as a brother. He loves helping you out and sharing tools with you. When he worked with you on X job last year, he did with the understanding that it was to be a paid job. Our family could really use that money, but dh values your friendship and doesn't want to hurt your relationship. Is there a reason you haven't paid him? Are you going to pay him?" It may come out that he has cash flow problems, the client never paid him all he owed, or the job lost money or he may really just keep forgetting. Finding out the reason he hasn't paid although he acknowledges he owes the money may help you feel better about the situation. The friend may see that he's affecting his friend's whole family or maybe he'll just be embarrassed enough to pay what he owes.

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Would your husband be willing to send him a formal invoice for the work with a handwritten note attached to the effect of "I know there was a delay in your getting paid; given that this was so long ago, I thought a formal invoice would help keep all of the paperwork straight at tax time."? That way the friend would receive the letter at a time and place where he is more likely to sit down and write a check (whereas if it is a text message he might receive it in the middle of doing something else and truly forget).  

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