Blazing the Trail for DE locally (Updated in #26)

[RootAnn]

Update: DD got in & is taking a class this semester. Updated in post #22 with the results of the first test.  :party:

Updated again: After applying for Fall 2018, admissions called & told her she'd be eligible for a full-tuition scholarship due to her SAT scores. Ha!

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Is there anyone who has been the first (homeschooler) to start their kid DEing at a local CC, college, or university who would like to chime in with tips? If the school isn't used to homeschoolers taking classes, so you had to jump through hoops or talk to lots of people, feel free to weigh in, too.

 

We have a state college nearby, and there have been a couple of parents inquire about their kids taking a class or two there while still in high school, no one has yet. They are un-homeschool friendly, in general, although some homeschoolers have gotten in post-graduation (some after taking the GED & one this semester w/out the GED). I have an email from about a year and a half ago detailing the process, in theory, but DD#1 is likely the first homeschooler in the area who will actually try it.

 

(Local high school kids take online classes there, but there is a specific process for it and they absolutely refuse to allow homeschoolers to use it. The person from the U who emailed the "in theory" process stated that classes taken there won't count for "dual enrollment." (I found this somewhat baffling and humorous at the same time.) 

Quote

 

Thank you for your interest in our Dual Credit program here at [name of school]! I have discussed your question with our Vice President of Academic Affairs and our policy is that in order to participate in our Dual Credit program, the student must be affiliated with a school district. He did however recommend the option of Personal Enrichment courses. The Personal Enrichment option allows individuals to take courses for college credit rather than dual credit. Students taking Personal Enrichment courses are required to pay the full tuition rate. The current tuition rates can be found here.  If interested in this option, your students can apply for Personal Enrichment courses online by visiting our homepage, [website address], and clicking on ‘Apply’ on the right hand side of the page.  You can also find additional useful information on our Personal Enrichment website. If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact me anytime.

 

DD sent her SAT score to the school already and will be filling out their online application (under Personal Enrichment option) for Spring 2018. I'm just not sure what else to do. Do I send a paper copy of her transcript? Course Descriptions? Set up an appointment for an in person meeting with Admissions? (Person sending the email was the Distance Learning Coordinator.)

[Hilltopmom]

Our local CC does not officially have DE for homeschoolers either.

( the public school kids can though and get a very reduced rate)

 

What homeschoolers do is the same as your schooo recommender- enroll in individual classes as a non matriculated student and pay full price.so not technically dual enrollment but it’s what I call it.

It’s worked out fine, the credits count but it’s a bummer we pay full price when the ps kids get them cheap.

Here, Non matriculated folk can take anything they want without placement testing. We did meet with an admissions person but didn’t have to. No transcript necessary.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[Lori D.]

Definitely, I would make an appointment to meet in person with the head of Admissions. And bring in all of DD's records -- test scores, transcript, course description, and maybe even samples of work. Perhaps broach this with the university as an admissions interview, so their fears can be allayed that DD CAN do the work, and WILL be an asset to the school for admitting her. I also do not think having to pay full-price for personal enrichment courses is worth the cost. Tuition cost can be worth it if your student gets the dual credit.

 

 

Does the university have any special requirements for homeschool graduates for freshman admission? Have as much of that material prepared as well.

 

 

My main concern here is that coursework taken as personal enrichment credits is not accepted as credit towards a future degree program -- AND definitely not transferrable to other universities as credit towards a degree.

 

You may end up needing to have DD take several SAT Subject tests, and even AP tests and CLEP tests to show additional support for the SAT/ACT score, to confirm her ability to work at college level.

 

Does the local community college have a dual credit-dual enrollment program that has a transfer agreement with the state university? Or online courses from a different university? What if DD started DE there, and then moved over to do DE at the university.

 

 

If you guys are the trail-blazers, then be prepared to stay pleasant no matter how much paperwork they throw at you, but continue to be incredibly persistent. Offer ideas to them to help make it easier for them to say yes ("What assurances does the admission process require to make this possible -- for example, what test scores, portfolio material, or recommendations would help fulfill admission requirements? May we schedule a personal interview with the student to help you determine her ability to work at college level and how she can be an asset to this school? Can we schedule a time for your assessment/placement test that all incoming-students take, so you can see that DD is prepared for college level and has the necessary pre-requisite knowledge and skills for these courses that she would like to take at this school?")

 

Good luck! Fingers crossed for you guys! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lori D.

[regentrude]

What is the "in theory" process? Can you just do it, with whatever documentation they require?

 

You could also request a meeting with admissions. I would recommend sending your husband. 

 

 

[Lilaclady]

I will recommend setting up an appointment with the admissions person and if possible, the top person. This might help clarify issues. Sometimes, admissions are not sure about maturity levels of students and having a face to face meeting with your dd present might help allay those fears.

 

All the best.

[regentrude]

What exactly does their "Dual credit" program entail? Is it possible that this involves financial discounts that are only available to students in b&m school?

At our uni, high school students pay the regular tuition and the term "DE" is not used.

 

[madteaparty]

I don't know if we blazed a trail or anything (I know we did not, as DS's best friend that's 2 yrs older than him transferred to the same 4 yr uni and will graduate from there with a 4 year degree at 16).

What I did is I approached the university for DS to take a class as an unmatriculated student, just like I would approach them for myself taking such a class. It's literally a one page form we submit each semester. You get to pay full tuition per credit plus fees, and you get to register after everyone else has (DS has had to contact the prof for placement tests and to get a waiver), but paperwork has not been our issue. Can do this up to 24 credits. They've no idea if he is homeschooled (or if he exists for that matter, since we do all this via email ;))

[RootAnn]

Thanks for the input so far. Keep it coming.

 

Definitely, I would make an appointment to meet in person with Admissions. And bring in all of DD's records -- test scores, transcript, course description, and maybe even samples of work. Perhaps broach this with the university as an admissions interview, so their fears can be allayed that DD CAN do the work, and WILL be an asset to the school for admitting her. I also do not think having to pay full-price for personal enrichment courses is worth the cost. Tuition cost can be worth it if your student gets the dual credit.
 
Does the university have any special requirements for homeschool graduates for freshman admission? Have as much of that material prepared as well.

 

They used to list a minimum ACT score for homeschoolers (ETA:  18! Public schooled kids don't have a minimum ACT requirement.). I can't find any actual admission requirements anywhere on the website anymore. [ETA:  I found the requirement in the pdf of the college catalog.]

Their Honors Program requires a 24 ACT & 3.5 GPA (unweighted) - both of which DD has. The average admitted ACT score is 20. 35% of their admitted freshmen (2017 class) had a 17 or less on their ACT. This isn't exactly an academic powerhouse.

 

My main concern here is that coursework taken as personal enrichment credits is not accepted as credit towards a future degree program -- AND definitely not transferrable to other universities as credit towards a degree.
 
You may end up needing to have DD take several SAT Subject tests, and even AP tests and CLEP tests to show additional support for the SAT/ACT score, to confirm her ability to work at college level.

 

Hmm. I didn't know that Personal Enrichment credits can't be accepted as credit. I wasn't sure how it would show on their transcripts. I'll have to ask this question.

 

I don't think this college has ever seen a SAT subject test report before! They are the only college that I've found so far that doesn't have some sort of listing on their website or policy in place that shows what CLEP/AP scores count for what classes. Their site just says you have to apply to the Dean of Professional Studies to inquire about getting credit. The local school only offers one AP that I'm aware of, unless you have a Tiger Mom and go distance learning & test an hour & a half away.

 

Does the local community college have a dual credit-dual enrollment program that has a transfer agreement with the state university? Or online courses from a different university? What if DD started DE there, and then moved over to do DE at the university. 

 

We live in the middle of nowhere. The local community college is an hour and half away. They have some limited classes in a satellite location nearer, but many of those are conducted via "tele-classroom" and are five days per week vs. two at the State College. Too much time on the road vs. (weak) classtime, IMO. The state college campus is only 20 minutes away. If there are too many hoops to jump (and all the previous homeschooling parents have decided there are), she'll just keep taking online classes. I do think someone should blaze the trail, though!!

 

I want DD to take one class in the spring to get her feet wet and possibly only one (Chemistry) each semester next year - unless she really likes it.

Edited October 18, 2017 by RootAnn

[RootAnn]

What is the "in theory" process? Can you just do it, with whatever documentation they require?

 

You could also request a meeting with admissions. I would recommend sending your husband. 

 

There is an online portal where you fill out some information. You start with answering what type of student you are. (If you are a Personal Enrichment student, some of the questions are blanked out.) They don't ask for a transcript for PE students. I don't know what they require for anything else as I haven't looked into that. I'd send my husband, but he wouldn't be able to answer most of their questions.

 

I will recommend setting up an appointment with the admissions person and if possible, the top person. This might help clarify issues. Sometimes, admissions are not sure about maturity levels of students and having a face to face meeting with your dd present might help allay those fears.

 

Based on this thread, this is probably the way we will go. Previous emails haven't been with Admissions. One homeschooling parent works at the school and has approached several of the top people (VP, Deans). All were very hostile to homeschoolers attending prior to high school graduation.

 

What exactly does their "Dual credit" program entail? Is it possible that this involves financial discounts that are only available to students in b&m school?

At our uni, high school students pay the regular tuition and the term "DE" is not used.

 

Their dual credit program does involve $$ savings for the kids. Many classes are taught at the local high school by the local high school teachers. However, I know of a few public school students who took online classes through the college ($60/credit hour). There is no way to take on campus classes as the program doesn't have an option for that. Here are the criteria (which DD meets):

 

 

 

Students must meet the following criteria to participate in the Dual Enrollment program:

Be juniors or seniors;

Be chosen carefully and recommended by the high school academic staff;

Meet the prerequisites of the courses;

Have a cumulative grade point average of ‘B’ or its equivalent or better; or rank in the top half of their high school class; or earn an ACT composite score of at least twenty (20) or an equivalent score on another valid assessment

 

I don't know if we blazed a trail or anything (I know we did not, as DS's best friend that's 2 yrs older than him transferred to the same 4 yr uni and will graduate from there with a 4 year degree at 16).

What I did is I approached the university for DS to take a class as an unmatriculated student, just like I would approach them for myself taking such a class. It's literally a one page form we submit each semester. You get to pay full tuition per credit plus fees, and you get to register after everyone else has (DS has had to contact the prof for placement tests and to get a waiver), but paperwork has not been our issue. Can do this up to 24 credits. They've no idea if he is homeschooled (or if he exists for that matter, since we do all this via email ;))

 

There is no option like this other than the Personal Enrichment option. They also call it "Non-Degree-Seeking." The online form is free & easy to fill out. (DD's is filled out, but the "submit" button was not pressed.)

[regentrude]

I think you will have a hard time negotiating the tuition break DE students get, because that is probably a deal arranged with the school system or the community or the state. Sounds like DE is mostly about that, and courses being taught on the high school campus. I would be wary of "college courses" taught by highschool teachers who do not have the same subject expertise as college professors.

 

What exactly is it you are trying to achieve? If DE does not offer any on campus classes, why do you want your DD to enroll? Surely she can find online classes from many other, more homeschool friendly providers?

Edited October 18, 2017 by regentrude

[RootAnn]

Edited to clarify - the email I posted earlier was forwarded to me from another homeschooling parent - who had inquired about her child taking classes there as part of the DE program. Ironically, the student she was asking about is now, I believe, the first homeschool student enrolled there directly after graduating from being homeschooled without taking the GED or transferring from another college first.]

 

We are not looking for the online classes or the classes taught by the high school teachers. I want DD to take on-campus classes. I don't care about their DE program or even the tuition break. DD loved her online chemistry class last year and would love to take a college chemistry class with onsite lab. As they only teach the intro class in the fall, that would have to be next year. [if she likes it, she can take the spring one. If she doesn't, she's knocked out a year of science in one semester.]

 

I'd like her to take a class in the spring to get her feet wet before that class. I wanted it to be Statistics as she loves math, but they just released the spring schedule and she can't make the listed class time due to her other online classes. It looks like she could take Macroeconomics, though, which I think she would enjoy.

Edited October 18, 2017 by RootAnn

[Lori D.]

Hmm. I didn't know that Personal Enrichment credits can't be accepted as credit. I wasn't sure how it would show on their transcripts. I'll have to ask this question.

 

So sorry, I was not clear. What I mean is that they do not count as credit towards a specific college degree. :) "Personal enrichment" is often either an audit (non-credit) option, OR, most frequently, exploration types of courses that are not the standard intro-level courses required towards completing a college degree. More like a Teaching Company Great Course or Coursera course in topic and scope.

 

With Personal Enrichment credits, you DO count the credit on your high school transcript, AND the credit counts on your permanent college transcript, BUT, it counts as an "elective credit" -- not as a credit that fulfills a gen. ed. or core concentration credit towards a college degree.

 

It's like taking a CLEP test that is not the specific CLEP that a university accepts for credit towards the gen. ed. credits for a degree -- you still get credit for it, but only as an elective that does not check off any boxes towards the list of credits required towards a college degree.

 

Did that help, or did I just further muddy the waters? lol.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

Regentrude's questions & comments, and then your responses, really help to clarify this situation.

 

And that's what you will want in an in-person meeting, is to very clear and specific as to what you are looking for, which is college level coursework for which you pay tuition, that awards college credit that is transferrable, and working as a non-matriculating student (i.e., admitted/enrolled/registered, but not working towards a specific degree).

 

And, you want to make sure that any college-level Chemistry and Statistics courses that your DD takes would "count" (transfer) towards a future degree. :)

 

My guess is that the magic words for the university will be "we will pay for tuition in full", in order to clear up the misunderstanding that you are trying to ride the cost-break coat-tails of the public school.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Lori D.

[Ellie]

We were the second homeschool family at a community college in San Jose, California. Mary Harrington, co-author of Latin in the Christian Trivium, was the first. She trudged back and forth and back and forth and back and forth in the hot August sun until she got all the offices to agree that this c.c. allowed students under 18 not enrolled in high school to attend the c.c with just their parents' permission. I believe her dd was 14 for that fall semester; mine was 13 in the winter semester (she had her 14th birthday in class, which I took with her). We paid regular tuition (which in California over 20 years ago was crazy cheap), and our children earned college credit.

 

Other community colleges had different rules, such as the one which required the "school principal" to sign a permission form every.single.quarter, and it became apparent over time that it was important for the parents to ask questions incessantly and to get things in writing (as in the child who took a class with her mother, did all the work just like all the other students, her mother earned credit for the class but she did not).

[madteaparty]

So it sounds like your personal enrichment is our "registration for unmatriculated students". But I never met with anyone ever or submitted anything other than the one page form and all my money. The administrators have no idea what DS looks like, for all they know he could be a very smart puppy with a social security number  :)

 He earns credits, and has a transcript. He is just not working towards a degree (hence, unmatriculated). He could apply tomorrow (as a matter of fact, at 24 credits they require you to do so or you can no longer continue) and all these credits would count.

Here, the tuition and fees are totally worth it for what you get, FWIW.  

Edited October 18, 2017 by madteaparty

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I wonder if some of the issue is in terminology.

 

Where I currently live, public high school students can participate in Running Start.  They can take specific courses on one of the community college campuses and those courses must be accepted by the high school for high school credit.

 

Private school students and homeschoolers may not participate in Running Start.  This isn't because the colleges don't like non-public students, but because there is no DOE memorandum that obligates the private high school to accept the college credit as high school credit.  However, private school students and homeschoolers have access to the same courses as Early Admission Students.  They do have to enroll as students in the state university system, but they are not listed as degree seeking students.

 

Here, Early Admission Students pay full in state tuition and pay for books.  I think Running Start students are also required to pay for their courses and books.

 

 

My personal opinion now.  Unless your state has specific guidelines that apply to homeschooler graduation requirements, I don't think that a college or university typically has any authority to prevent a college course from being adopted by a high school for high school credit.  In other words, I don't really see how a college would say that dual credit is not allowed.  Having said that, there are some situations I've heard of where a college will not accept a course for college credit IF it was applied to high school graduation requirements.  I'm not personally familiar with colleges that do this, but I've seen it mentioned.  

 

I would not necessarily be put off by being told that a student had to register as a non-traditional student, non-degree seeking student or personal enrichment student.  This might simply be a way of indicating that the student isn't a traditional enrolled student and isn't to be tracked for things like graduation rate.  I don't think it necessarily says anything about the quality of the course or whether the student is auditing or not.

 

If the college has never had a homeschooler enroll as a dual credit student, I might approach it from the angle of how would they allow a private school student to take courses at the school while still in high school.  Then try to make those requirements fit the homeschool situation where appropriate.  My dual credit students presented required medical forms, took required placement tests and met course prerequisites.  When a form required a counselor or principal signature, I signed it.  Even if that meant I was signing multiple blocks on the same form.

 

Best of luck.  I had a counselor at one college insist that I had to present three different pieces of documentation that were mutually exclusive documents related to homeschooling (ex. A teaching certificate AND a homeschool notification AND a charter school registration).  No amount of reasoning with him could change his mind.  The next time we showed up, he just waved us through without looking at our forms at all.

[Hilltopmom]

Non degree seeking = non matriculated student here, that’s how we do ours. He can take anything that way, not just fluff classes

[madteaparty]

Non degree seeking = non matriculated student here, that’s how we do ours. He can take anything that way, not just fluff classes

SUNY right?

Ability to take whatever a prof will let you into (and the profs have wide discretion) is a beautiful thing. I don't know what we'll do at 24 credits 😳

[Hilltopmom]

SUNY right?

Ability to take whatever a prof will let you into (and the profs have wide discretion) is a beautiful thing. I don't know what we'll do at 24 credits 😳

Yep:). I do wish that we got a discount though. Can you switch to online classes from a different state school? Like the dirt cheap ones from HVCC Edited October 18, 2017 by Hilltopmom

[madteaparty]

Yep:). I do wish that we got a discount though. Can you switch to online classes from a different state school? Like the dirt cheap ones from HVCC

 

No, we have a super cheap CC close by but they don't offer what DS is interested in taking.

There's a private college with a high school program we are going to approach at some point.

 

[RootAnn]

Just wanted to update this. We filled out the information on the online portal, but didn't send any other info (transcript) or schedule an interview. Once her health & vaccine information were received, she was accepted in as a non-matriculating student (madteaparty's method, basically). 

 

DD chose to take Intro to Psych 101 and they just got back their first test. Class average was a 72. DD got one of the four three As.  :hurray:  

First paper was also turned in last week, but they haven't gotten them back yet. On her own initiative, DD went in to show her the rough draft during office hours two days before it was due. (This is huge for two reasons - one, actually going in to seek feedback ahead of time and two, that meant she had to actually have a rough draft to show the teacher. This is a kid who writes papers the night before they are due!) The teacher mostly blew her off because she said that as long as DD had two pages of her opinion, she'd get credit. But, she did at least scan the paper.

 

Anyway, sharing the pride & joy here with dd#1's Hive Aunts.  :thumbup1:

Edited:  DD tells me there were only 3 As, not 4.

Edited February 13, 2018 by RootAnn

[madteaparty]

That’s really awesome! Thanks for updating. It makes one

feel not totally insane when kids manage to hold their own in these classes (though I tell DS in his case it has more to do with the class than with him—have to keep them humble ;)).

Edited February 13, 2018 by madteaparty

[Lilaclady]

Awesome!!!!

[Kassia]

What a great update!  Wonderful!

[RootAnn]

Another update & a laugh.

So, the local college requires that "personal enrichment" (or non-degree seeking) students reapply each semester they want to take classes. So, DD#1 filled out the application online again for Fall 2018 since it'll be time to sign up for classes at the end of this week. (Seniors start registering today.) A college admissions guy called the house when most of us were out & talked to DH. He confirmed DD applied for the fall as a non-degree seeking student, that she was "homeschooled," and that she was a junior. (DH wanted to make sure he answered correctly on this. Homeschooled kids aren't the only ones who can't remember what grade they are in!) The admissions guy then wanted to make sure DD knew that her SAT scores (which I sent on a whim as one of the free ones when she took the SAT last fall in prep for the PSAT) were so high that she qualified for a full tuition scholarship to attend their school. (Insert rolling on the floor laughing emoticon.) [I'm laughing because she would not want to attend this place for her actual college education. It is funny that they would call & point this out to a homeschooler when they aren't very homeschooling-friendly. Perhaps she really will be the one who changes their minds!]

DD's second exam also showed a good result. The lengthy research paper might kill her (since she hates writing), but I'm very, very proud of her. (And recently, I reviewed the procedure that the local high school kids go through to dual enroll in this college's online classes. It is lengthy, cumbersome, and paperwork-heavy. So, now, the only thing I am jealous of is that they pay very little for each class while we have to pay full price. But, I'll deal!)