Curriculum Question: Veritas Press (Omnibus) or Tapestry of Grace

[poppy517]

Hi,

 

We've recently moved overseas and have left our wonderful homeschool community that we were a part of for 6 years, which was Classical Conversations. Now that we are here, and there is no community, I've been continuing Memory Work and all other subjects as normal (I was a tutor for both Foundations and Essentials) for this school year, but I did add in Veritas Press self-paced Bible and History for my 2 oldest kids. Additionally, I added VP Latin for Children since CC does not have K-6 graders do any Latin aside from Memory Work. We have enjoyed it thus far, and I've appreciated having time to focus on my younger two for LA while the bigger kids are doing those classes.

 

As my oldest is approaching 7th grade next year, I will need to make some decisions about what we will do through middle & high school. If we had stayed in the US, we would have continued with Challenge, but I don't think I can manage to become a Challenge Director and spend an entire day discussing with my oldest while my others are doing heaven knows what! Ha!! Plus, she won't have peers to discuss with, so it just won't work. I was planning to go with Veritas Press through high school b/c it seemed a solid program and offers online and self-paced courses; however, I don't like that I won't be able to teach all of my kids the same material at their level anymore which is why I am considering Tapestry of Grace. I really do not like to jump around in our curriculum, so I really am hoping to make the wisest choice for our family. I'm hoping y'all can offer some insight. :-) Here is a bit of information about my family and our preferences:

 

My kids are in 6th, 4th, 2nd & K. All our them are doing OK-none are advanced-just pretty average kids, but I do have one that has speech delays (darn tongue tie that didn't get caught until 4 years-Ugh!!), which has made for some difficulty reading--though he's making steady progress-just requires more on my part. I feel very blessed that I need not be concerned with the cost of the curriculum and intend to purchase all books or required material upfront (I've heard some complain about having to find books for TOG). My preference is for us to be able to study the same topics, but at different levels according to their developmental level, which TOG does. I don't get overwhelmed with too many options (a complaint of TOG), so long as the basic plan for completing the lessons are clear, I don't mind spending some time setting up binders up before the school year, and I don't mind spending an hour or two prepping for the week. HOWEVER, I need the lesson plans to be complete, clear and specific because I just don't have time to get creative on a day-to-day basis with 4 kids in every subject. Currently, I can teach the Memory Work creatively with my eyes closed. The Veritas Press lesson plans (for Latin & Literature) are wonderful. I open to the appropriate day's work and teach. Very simple! We are enjoying it so far. In fact, I'd probably keep doing it except for the fact that next year the oldest would start Omnibus, and I just don't know if I like the idea of her doing her own thing while I do something completely different with the younger kids. For that reason, I'm considering giving TOG a try (I also love the hands-on learning activities they offer). However, I'm nervous about the ease of implementation. If it isn't easy, I'm afraid I won't do it. As a result, I'm willing to sacrifice teaching all on the same level if it means that I will be easily able to implement the lessons. 

 

Questions:

 

1.  Does anyone have any insight on the lesson plans for TOG? Is TOG difficult to implement? Do they give specific instructions regarding the daily lessons? (Yes, I've looked at the samples, and that's why I'm concerned). I can see that they let you divide the weekly reading as you wish. I probably won't do that. I will just use their weekly sample layout. However, I don't want to have to flip to this page for this kid, another page for another kid...yikes! Also, do you have to read all the teacher notes and remember what it says for every kid for the whole week and comment as things arise? Do you all have any tips?

 

2.  I can see that the reading lists are very different with regard to reading original texts (VP) and I'm not sure, maybe books about the person (TOG). It seems, after reading previous threads, that people feel pretty good about the content and knowledge their kids gain with TOG. I guess I just don't have experience with this age or material yet to have a good opinion. Has anyone gone through either of these programs that can weigh in? I will say, it looks impressive to have read the books on the VP list, but it's not about that-I certainly know! 

 

3.  If we use TOG, I do not intend to use the writing portion. We've used IEW for a few years now, and I do like this program. Is it a big deal if we don't use the writing part? I certainly don't mind assigning writing work based on the reading material on occasion, but I want to be able to use the IEW format of my choice. Thoughts?

 

4.  Is there any data on graduates of each program?

 

5.  My kids are REALLY missing their friends from CC, and I know it's important for dialectic and rhetoric levels to have discussion. Can I even do this with just our family discussions? Have you tried the online classes? Is there any peer discussion? 

 

Thank you all SO much for reading all of this, and for any help you can provide!

 

 

 

 

 

[SilverMoon]

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Edited July 12, 2022 by SilverMoon

[nixpix5]

It sounds like, based on what your needs and wants are TOG would fit your family. I would do what SilverMoon suggested and look for a search. I haven't used TOG but have heard good things.

 

What I do know a little about is Omnibus. I have Omnibus I on the shelf and do plan to use them with my kids but I am postponing until 8th or 9th. Even Omnibus I is HEAVY reading and writing. I would only expect highly academic 7th graders to be able to pull that off.

 

I haven't seen the Omnibus online classes but VP people are so fantastic I would call them up and pick their brain a bit. Their classes are broken up as either the primary reading list or the secondary I believe.

[poppy517]

Thanks so much!

[blessed3x]

:seeya: We have used ToG for the past 4 years and love it.  I am happy to try to answer your questions.

 

1. Lesson plans:  you can download a free three week trial of their lesson plans.

They do not give you daily lesson instruction, but weekly. You break it up from their Primary Resources or Alternate/Extra as you choose for your students.

I use the Assignments page to plan out our week, then refer to the teacher notes when we do our discussions at the end of the week. For younger students you may not use those at all, but for middle/high schoolers you will want to read over them and refer to them during the discussions. (No, you don't need to remember it all  ;) )

 

2. Reading lists: I do not have experience with VP, though I have friends who have used it and are happy with it.  For us, ToG has been great. My son enjoys the reading we do, though it is a lot.  We use most of the Primary Resource suggestions but also a few of the alternate.  Sometimes I will use what I have on my shelf instead, but then have him research for an answer that was not covered in his reading. There are a lot of options with ToG, which I appreciate.

 

3.  Writing portion: You can easily use IEW instead of their program, Writing Aids. We have used EIW for the past few years, and this is the first year we are using Writing Aids alongside Lost Tools of Writing. I do use some of their assignments for paper suggestions, but the program is flexible.

 

4.  Graduates: If you email customer service for ToG they may be able to answer that question for you. I personally know quite a few graduates, but do not know of any specific data:  423-765-2833 (M-F, 10am to 4pm EST) or email:  tustaff@tapestryofgrace.com   I have always received excellent customer service and support. Don't hesitate to contact them. There is also a directory with community contacts where you may find another family in your area.

 

5.  Discussion:  For us, my nineth grader and I have the discussions. I cherish this time.  It would be better with more people, but I am also overseas and the only one I know of using ToG.  I have looked at the online classes, and there are also virtual co-ops, but the times have not matched for us. If you can find one, I would encourage you to join. Until then, YES, you can have wonderful discussions within your family.

 

As I mentioned, please feel free to message me with any other questions. I hope this has been helpful and not too overwhelming.

[poppy517]

Wow, this is great info! Thank you so much for your thorough answers to all of those crazy questions I asked! 😉 I’m going to check out the three-week trial, and email customer service. Let me know if it turns out we are near each other!!

[Homeschoolmom3]

I feel for you and with so many options and many being great but just not exactly what you are looking for.  I have used both TOG and VP & Omnibus.  They are both great programs however I struggled with them for several reasons. 

 

TOG- was in my opinion too hard to implement and it just seemed like too much information and hard to plan.  I wanted something more open and go and where I only needed to "pre-read" my kids work not plan it too.  This way I was on the same page with them and we were able to have such great discussions and connections.

 

VP/Omnibus - was just too much to finish and I totally burnt my kids out by trying to do everything.  I also felt it just wasn't complete for an overall idea of the time period just bits and pieces even though I did enjoy most of the book choices.  I also didn't like the idea of the textbook telling them what they should have gotten out of the book and what to think I want them to figure it out for themselves or to glean what they can from where they are.

 

I finally found a curriculum that was complete, not too overwhelming, very easy to implement and is laid out beautifully.  I also love that you study a time period and you can do it with all of your kids.  The books are different depending on their age but there are overlaps and we all get to have great discussions.  In case you want to check it out you can find it here...The Alveary  it is a CM curriculum but to me that is classical depending on how you define it.

 

My preference is for us to be able to study the same topics, but at different levels according to their developmental level, which TOG does.

 

I understand this and that is why the Alveary worked great for us.  (I am not associated with them I was just so excited when I found this because it was exactly what I had been looking for.)  :)

 

Questions:

 

1.  Does anyone have any insight on the lesson plans for TOG? Is TOG difficult to implement? Do they give specific instructions regarding the daily lessons? (Yes, I've looked at the samples, and that's why I'm concerned). I can see that they let you divide the weekly reading as you wish. I probably won't do that. I will just use their weekly sample layout. However, I don't want to have to flip to this page for this kid, another page for another kid...yikes! Also, do you have to read all the teacher notes and remember what it says for every kid for the whole week and comment as things arise? Do you all have any tips?

 

I had bought this and was trying to make sense of it but it was just too much prep for me.  I don't find it very open and go of course it has been a few years since I have had it so it might have changed since then. ?

 

2.  I can see that the reading lists are very different with regard to reading original texts (VP) and I'm not sure, maybe books about the person (TOG). It seems, after reading previous threads, that people feel pretty good about the content and knowledge their kids gain with TOG. I guess I just don't have experience with this age or material yet to have a good opinion. Has anyone gone through either of these programs that can weigh in? I will say, it looks impressive to have read the books on the VP list, but it's not about that-I certainly know! 

 

The book list in Omnibus is good and we liked the books but it was just so overwhelming and not much time to process them before moving on.  I can tell you that my kids don't remember much of the books they read those couple years of doing Omnibus whereas when we picked fewer books and really poured over them for a longer amount of time they have really stuck with them.  Therefore we read very broad and even though we could be reading about 15 different books at one time we read them throughout the year and therefore will remember them longer.  That is what worked best for my kiddos.  I would rather have good conversations and where the books really form their character and move their soul and become part of them then just checking the box to get them done. 

 

3.  If we use TOG, I do not intend to use the writing portion. We've used IEW for a few years now, and I do like this program. Is it a big deal if we don't use the writing part? I certainly don't mind assigning writing work based on the reading material on occasion, but I want to be able to use the IEW format of my choice. Thoughts?

 

I think you could use IEW with any program without much trouble.

 

4.  Is there any data on graduates of each program?

 

I don't think you can go wrong with either program I would focus more on how to learn and let the books speak for themselves.  They will be fine.  :)

 

5.  My kids are REALLY missing their friends from CC, and I know it's important for dialectic and rhetoric levels to have discussion. Can I even do this with just our family discussions? Have you tried the online classes? Is there any peer discussion? 

 

I haven't tried TOG online but we did do VP online and just felt it to be too much there is some discussion but I felt that it just wasn't worth the time and the money.  We have discussions among our family and that I feel is sufficient.  You can always get the kids to start up a club to discuss books they are reading if they really want to talk with other kids their own age...lots of other ideas then a class.

 

Hope this has helped you some.  Let me know if you have any other specific questions or if you would like to chat PM me and I can go into more detail of about the different curricula that we have used.

[freesia]

Hi,

 

We've recently moved overseas and have left our wonderful homeschool community that we were a part of for 6 years, which was Classical Conversations. Now that we are here, and there is no community, I've been continuing Memory Work and all other subjects as normal (I was a tutor for both Foundations and Essentials) for this school year, but I did add in Veritas Press self-paced Bible and History for my 2 oldest kids. Additionally, I added VP Latin for Children since CC does not have K-6 graders do any Latin aside from Memory Work. We have enjoyed it thus far, and I've appreciated having time to focus on my younger two for LA while the bigger kids are doing those classes.

 

As my oldest is approaching 7th grade next year, I will need to make some decisions about what we will do through middle & high school. If we had stayed in the US, we would have continued with Challenge, but I don't think I can manage to become a Challenge Director and spend an entire day discussing with my oldest while my others are doing heaven knows what! Ha!! Plus, she won't have peers to discuss with, so it just won't work. I was planning to go with Veritas Press through high school b/c it seemed a solid program and offers online and self-paced courses; however, I don't like that I won't be able to teach all of my kids the same material at their level anymore which is why I am considering Tapestry of Grace. I really do not like to jump around in our curriculum, so I really am hoping to make the wisest choice for our family. I'm hoping y'all can offer some insight. :-) Here is a bit of information about my family and our preferences:

 

My kids are in 6th, 4th, 2nd & K. All our them are doing OK-none are advanced-just pretty average kids, but I do have one that has speech delays (darn tongue tie that didn't get caught until 4 years-Ugh!!), which has made for some difficulty reading--though he's making steady progress-just requires more on my part. I feel very blessed that I need not be concerned with the cost of the curriculum and intend to purchase all books or required material upfront (I've heard some complain about having to find books for TOG). My preference is for us to be able to study the same topics, but at different levels according to their developmental level, which TOG does. I don't get overwhelmed with too many options (a complaint of TOG), so long as the basic plan for completing the lessons are clear, I don't mind spending some time setting up binders up before the school year, and I don't mind spending an hour or two prepping for the week. HOWEVER, I need the lesson plans to be complete, clear and specific because I just don't have time to get creative on a day-to-day basis with 4 kids in every subject. Currently, I can teach the Memory Work creatively with my eyes closed. The Veritas Press lesson plans (for Latin & Literature) are wonderful. I open to the appropriate day's work and teach. Very simple! We are enjoying it so far. In fact, I'd probably keep doing it except for the fact that next year the oldest would start Omnibus, and I just don't know if I like the idea of her doing her own thing while I do something completely different with the younger kids. For that reason, I'm considering giving TOG a try (I also love the hands-on learning activities they offer). However, I'm nervous about the ease of implementation. If it isn't easy, I'm afraid I won't do it. As a result, I'm willing to sacrifice teaching all on the same level if it means that I will be easily able to implement the lessons. 

 

Questions:

 

1.  Does anyone have any insight on the lesson plans for TOG? Is TOG difficult to implement? Do they give specific instructions regarding the daily lessons? (Yes, I've looked at the samples, and that's why I'm concerned). I can see that they let you divide the weekly reading as you wish. I probably won't do that. I will just use their weekly sample layout. However, I don't want to have to flip to this page for this kid, another page for another kid...yikes! Also, do you have to read all the teacher notes and remember what it says for every kid for the whole week and comment as things arise? Do you all have any tips?

 

2.  I can see that the reading lists are very different with regard to reading original texts (VP) and I'm not sure, maybe books about the person (TOG). It seems, after reading previous threads, that people feel pretty good about the content and knowledge their kids gain with TOG. I guess I just don't have experience with this age or material yet to have a good opinion. Has anyone gone through either of these programs that can weigh in? I will say, it looks impressive to have read the books on the VP list, but it's not about that-I certainly know! 

 

3.  If we use TOG, I do not intend to use the writing portion. We've used IEW for a few years now, and I do like this program. Is it a big deal if we don't use the writing part? I certainly don't mind assigning writing work based on the reading material on occasion, but I want to be able to use the IEW format of my choice. Thoughts?

 

4.  Is there any data on graduates of each program?

 

5.  My kids are REALLY missing their friends from CC, and I know it's important for dialectic and rhetoric levels to have discussion. Can I even do this with just our family discussions? Have you tried the online classes? Is there any peer discussion? 

 

Thank you all SO much for reading all of this, and for any help you can provide!

 

What kind of data do you want?  I don't have a lot of time now, but will come back to answer your other questions.   I know TOG grads who scored above 1500 on their SATs, got $20,000 worth of scholarship money (merit aid), went to Hillsdale and Cedarville and ones who are happily graduated college and working or married with kids.

 

but I think you can get "there" with lots of curriculum.

 

 

[bethben]

Being overseas, you may have sticker shock with the cost of all the books needed for TOG.  Go to bookshelfcentral.com and plug in the levels you're looking for.  That may make your decision easier.

[mamamoose]

I have not read all the responses but we use and absolutely love Biblioplan. It’s similar to TOG and I add in some MP and VP literature guides, Latin, grammar, history guides and writing (love MPs writing sequence). I bought the younger grades text “Remember the Days†as well as the companion and my younger two use the RtD and the older reads that as well as selections of my choice from the companion. I would be happy to visit with you some more if you want.

[mamamoose]

I think it’s cheaper and you can pick and choose literature. For instance, we are studying Medieval and one of the books recommended for 5-8 grades is King Arthur. Biblioplan recommends 1-3 literature guides for each year so I purchased the King Arthur guide from MP, and my 6th grader will complete that while she reads that particular book.

 

The family guide has assignments and it’s laid out really easy to follow. It’s also easy to adapt! And includes mapping and many options to add or subtract!

 

Biblioplan also has writing assignments but we don’t typically complete those. Anyway, feel free to message me if you want to chat.

Edited October 21, 2017 by mamamoose

[nixpix5]

I have not read all the responses but we use and absolutely love Biblioplan. It’s similar to TOG and I add in some MP and VP literature guides, Latin, grammar, history guides and writing (love MPs writing sequence). I bought the younger grades text “Remember the Days†as well as the companion and my younger two use the RtD and the older reads that as well as selections of my choice from the companion. I would be happy to visit with you some more if you want.

Just had to jump in and second the praises of biblioplan. I love it more than any other history program in conjuction with SOTW.

[ktgrok]

Layers of Learning is another option. It's not laid out as succinctly as Biblioplan, but has a planner that you can get to help you plan what you want to do, and includes science and art. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Have you seen Omnibus IRL?

I had decided on it based on information from here, but when I actually studied the first volume at a conference I decided against it after all, for several reasons.

 

1.  The theology is not really mine.  I'm a conservative Lutheran, and there is a slant to Omnibus that I disagree with a great deal.  It is pretty pervasive, which I had not really been expecting, since both are conservative, Biblical approaches.  YMMV.

 

So I sighed and said, OK, I'll use something else for theology.  DD has confirmation classes for two years anyway, and we can key off of those or use a Bible workbook as a spine.

 

2.  The history is fairly sparse.  I had expected a history spine that had literature and theology tie ins, but to me it read more like a literature spine that had history and theology tie ins.

 

So I thought, OK, I'll add a history spine and we will do readings from that.

 

Then as I was reading and reading, I realized that I was going to be needing to modify the writing as well, to fit the modifications in theology as well as the enhanced history.  And it just didn't seem worth it.

 

I loved the idea of Omnibus, but the reality of it was not a fit.  I am so glad that I figured this out before investing in it.

 

We ended up using the WTM approach to literature, and it gave me wonderful flexibility to, say, buy tickets to really good plays that popped up and use them as part of our studies.  We didn't limit the great books we read to just those that coordinated with history--I think that about half did and half didn't.  In history since we were at the end of a cycle, 7th grade was used to survey world history entirely again, with a focus on church history, and 8th was used for focussed study topics that DD was particularly interested in.  When she had to study a climate issue for a robotics team, we used the 'Weather' science textbook to study weather more broadly, and tied this in with history in terms of desertification, prevailing winds and how they contributed to exploration, and things like that.  This kind of serendipitous coordination was very enriching and satisfying all around.  I'm glad I had a chance to demonstrate with DD that all knowledge fits together eventually, and to follow rabbit trails together.  No curriculum could have done this for us as well as we did it for ourselves.

 

YMMV of course.  Just putting this out there.

[nixpix5]

Have you seen Omnibus IRL?

I had decided on it based on information from here, but when I actually studied the first volume at a conference I decided against it after all, for several reasons.

 

1. The theology is not really mine. I'm a conservative Lutheran, and there is a slant to Omnibus that I disagree with a great deal. It is pretty pervasive, which I had not really been expecting, since both are conservative, Biblical approaches. YMMV.

 

So I sighed and said, OK, I'll use something else for theology. DD has confirmation classes for two years anyway, and we can key off of those or use a Bible workbook as a spine.

 

2. The history is fairly sparse. I had expected a history spine that had literature and theology tie ins, but to me it read more like a literature spine that had history and theology tie ins.

 

So I thought, OK, I'll add a history spine and we will do readings from that.

 

Then as I was reading and reading, I realized that I was going to be needing to modify the writing as well, to fit the modifications in theology as well as the enhanced history. And it just didn't seem worth it.

 

I loved the idea of Omnibus, but the reality of it was not a fit. I am so glad that I figured this out before investing in it.

 

We ended up using the WTM approach to literature, and it gave me wonderful flexibility to, say, buy tickets to really good plays that popped up and use them as part of our studies. We didn't limit the great books we read to just those that coordinated with history--I think that about half did and half didn't. In history since we were at the end of a cycle, 7th grade was used to survey world history entirely again, with a focus on church history, and 8th was used for focussed study topics that DD was particularly interested in. When she had to study a climate issue for a robotics team, we used the 'Weather' science textbook to study weather more broadly, and tied this in with history in terms of desertification, prevailing winds and how they contributed to exploration, and things like that. This kind of serendipitous coordination was very enriching and satisfying all around. I'm glad I had a chance to demonstrate with DD that all knowledge fits together eventually, and to follow rabbit trails together. No curriculum could have done this for us as well as we did it for ourselves.

 

YMMV of course. Just putting this out there.

That is a good point. Omnibus slants reformed so that is definitely something to keep in mind. Am I remembering this wrong or doesn't TOG also slant reformer theology? I thought I had read that some where...

[Carol in Cal.]

That is a good point. Omnibus slants reformed so that is definitely something to keep in mind. Am I remembering this wrong or doesn't TOG also slant reformer theology? I thought I had read that some where...

TOG does slant reformed.  I'm not sure how strongly; my impression is, a bit less strongly than Omnibus but I have not studied it thoroughly and never did use it so I'm deferring to others who are more knowledgeable.

[freesia]

Tog slants reformed, but it's all in the discussion script and easy to modify.

 

Op, i don't find the planning difficult. Most years we have used IEW instead of Writing Aids. You can do the discussions with one or two students. There are also virtual TOG co-ops. We have used the online classes once and liked them.