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Epiphany: Thanks, WTM Forums!


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We've been hsing for 10 years now.  I've been on and off these boards for most of that time.  It's been a hard journey, and I've often wondered why.

 

We've got three bright dd.  By test score standards used by our local B&M school, our oldest is demonstrably gifted.  Our second is at least on the edge, and the tests don't even address her particularly strong areas.  I haven't tested our third yet, but I know that there's nothing low about her IQ.  But why, when I read so many descriptions of wonderful hsing, with it's incredibly flexible schedule and the marvelous opportunities to perfectly fit the education to the child's needs, etc, do I keep having to assume that I must be failing?

 

For us, hsing is rewarding but difficult.  I often find myself exhausted after a morning of school, and those people who say that repeated tears mean a curriculum automatically isn't working would have to revamp our entire school, it seems.  Why is it so hard?  Why am I so lacking?  Why can't I skim through the day with a hug here and an encouraging comment there like so many others seem to?  These are good, generally respectful and obedient kids.  It can't all be due to behavioral problems.  So.  How much is my fault?  My teaching style?  My school design?  My personality?

 

Well, there is the fact that our second was diagnosed with a slight Proprioceptive Disorder and shows signs of ADHD, though I haven't had her tested since I haven't wanted to label her.  (Should we just go ahead and do it?  Honest question.)  And our youngest has always been a challenging child.  However, it hasn't been until now, while I'm awaiting the call-back for a referral that our pediatrician very willingly put in for a neuro-psych eval for our youngest, that I've really visited this forum on the boards.  Reading through your posts, I've had an epiphany.

 

That exhaustion that comes from pushing a child all the way through to completion on a single page of handwriting, even though it takes over two hours (not including the breaks you give her to work on other things so she can rest a bit)?  The stress that comes from talking a child down from near-hysterics every. single. time she comes across the distributive property in her math work over a period of weeks?  Those aren't signs of failure, even though they occur on a daily basis.  The fact that I've got to lean on my God in prayer through so many "routine" school mornings is not a sign of my failure.  

 

Exhaustion, stress, the felt need to curl up in a fetal position and cry during lunch - these aren't signs of failure.  They're battle scars.  I'm a warrior who is showing the effects of the battle I'm fighting for my girls' education.  I'm not fighting my girls, you understand.  I'm fighting my own impatience and goal-orientedness.  I'm fighting their distractions, their hormones, and their frustration.  I'm trying my best to train them to fight through their challenges and keep going.  When a battle ends with work completed and a sense of success on their part, it's a victory.  On those occasions when they look at me with that light bulb on and their eyes shining - well, that's the glorious moment that all teachers live for, I think.

 

So, thank you, fellow warriors.  I needed to realize (again) that failure isn't finding something difficult; it's giving up.

 

Bless you all.  Keep up the good fight!

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I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Yes, it sounds like you should go ahead and pursue thorough, private evals for your kids. So did you get an OT eval? I would encourage you *not* to think of their sensory issues as slight, because my guess is it's affecting them MUCH more than you realize.

 

Well keep us posted on how the evals go. It sounds like evals will give you a lot more epiphanies and help you make the changes you're clearly wanting to make! :)

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What OhE said.  LOL

 

Also, it sounds like you might have twice exceptional children.  Meaning your kids may be gifted AND have learning issues.  Possibly they are dealing with things like ADHD but also possibly stealth dyslexia, and/or dysgraphia, low working memory, low processing speed, etc.  There are a lot of things that can make it harder for a child to learn, even with and actually especially with a gifted brain, because they seem like things should be easier than they are. 

 

You are working hard and are in the trenches every day trying to help your kids and that is absolutely commendable.  I think most of us here have had those days where we wondered "Are they struggling because of me?  Am I really that bad at this homeschooling thing?"  I think we can definitely relate to those feelings.  I would like to send you hugs of encouragement for all those hard days you have faced and will face in the future. 

 

But I also want to address evaluations.  Yes, you asked and I say yes please, please get evaluations through a neuropsychologist.  Why?  Because you aren't after a label, you are needing answers and a path that is more productive, that doesn't require so many daily battles/stress/tears.  You need your kids to be successful but not at the cost of their self-esteem and hopefully their love of learning (which can die pretty quickly).  And you need to help them in ways that make better sense for how their brains function.

 

I waited years to get evaluations because my mother and my husband especially did not want the kids "labeled".  I wish I hadn't listened.  I don't give a darn about the label except as it gives me better answers.  Getting evaluations gave me badly needed answers.  And a much better path for my kids.  I don't regret for a moment finally getting evaluations and answers.  And you know what?  My kids were so relieved to get answers, too.  I did not present those labels as deficits because in many ways they aren't.  I showed them how many strengths they have, not in spite of their weaknesses but BECAUSE of the way their brain works.  Flip side of the same coin.  And we started using material and presenting information in ways that made it so much easier for them to learn.  Not easy.  Easier.

 

Hugs, good luck and best wishes.

 

 

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I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. Yes, it sounds like you should go ahead and pursue thorough, private evals for your kids. So did you get an OT eval? I would encourage you *not* to think of their sensory issues as slight, because my guess is it's affecting them MUCH more than you realize.

 

Well keep us posted on how the evals go. It sounds like evals will give you a lot more epiphanies and help you make the changes you're clearly wanting to make! :)

 

Yes, we got an OT eval.   That pediatrician (different state; we've since moved) listened to our concerns about lack of physical sensitivity and referred us immediately.  I don't believe there were any other specialties/evaluations involved.

 

I described 2nd dd's condition as "slight" because the OT did not consider it severe and it's not really noticeable in public.  There are also some odd things that don't fit into the description.  I didn't press about my ADHD concerns because I was under the impression that a medication prescription would be automatic and I wanted to avoid that.  At present, I have no idea if that concern was valid or not.

 

Can I ask a couple of questions?

1. What constitutes a "thorough" evaluation?  Do I get to request certain tests?  How do I know what to ask for?

2. What do you mean by "private?"  Do you mean through some avenue other than the public school?

 

Thanks!

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 I think we can definitely relate to those feelings.  I would like to send you hugs of encouragement for all those hard days you have faced and will face in the future. 

 

Thanks for the hugs.  :)

 

But I also want to address evaluations.  Yes, you asked and I say yes please, please get evaluations through a neuropsychologist.  Why?  Because you aren't after a label, you are needing answers and a path that is more productive, that doesn't require so many daily battles/stress/tears.  You need your kids to be successful but not at the cost of their self-esteem and hopefully their love of learning (which can die pretty quickly).  And you need to help them in ways that make better sense for how their brains function.

 

I waited years to get evaluations because my mother and my husband especially did not want the kids "labeled".  I wish I hadn't listened.  I don't give a darn about the label except as it gives me better answers.  Getting evaluations gave me badly needed answers.  And a much better path for my kids.  I don't regret for a moment finally getting evaluations and answers.  And you know what?  My kids were so relieved to get answers, too.  I did not present those labels as deficits because in many ways they aren't.  I showed them how many strengths they have, not in spite of their weaknesses but BECAUSE of the way their brain works.  Flip side of the same coin.  And we started using material and presenting information in ways that made it so much easier for them to learn.  Not easy.  Easier.

 

I know already that the differences bring strengths alongside of them.  What I hear you saying is that an evaluation will show what those strengths are and how to take advantage of them.

 

I appreciate your encouragement.  I have a brother who is a psychology professor at a university in another state.  I approached him during a visit last July 4th about getting our 2nd daughter evaluated for ADHD.  His reply was that 1) He didn't see anything in her behavior to suggest such a diagnosis and 2) if I really wanted to go ahead and get her evaluated anyway, I should ask him for a suggestion in our nearby city so that I could get a proper expert to do it.  When we finally decided to get our 3rd dd evaluated, I emailed him for a suggestion.  He replied (in similar fashion) that he was sure she was fine, but suggested taking her to the local Children's Hospital since he judged the personnel there would be able to handle the evaluation well.  This is the same place our pediatrician referred us to when we asked for a referral.

 

On the one hand, I feel confident that the Pediatric NeuroPysch department at this hospital will do a good job with her.

 

On the other hand, nothing makes me second-guess myself like an expert family member saying, "She'll be fine."  Except that he sees the girls once a year, generally on their best behavior, and he's never worked with a single one of them through a day of school.

 

So, question: Is an evaluation (for ADHD, among other things) in the 11-year-old something that needs to be done immediately, or can I wait to start the process until I get the 8-year-old in and see how things are done?  (I don't know if there's a age window for working with ADHD or something.)

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I have to run to get my kids from school, but don't rely on a family member to "diagnose" without evaluating. My mother in law constantly reassured me that DD12's reading was fine. She was a reading specialist at an elementary school, but she had never worked with DD and was not a dyslexia specialist. It was just hopeful thinking on her part, and probably meant to reassure me. But it was not helpful.

 

You don't have to medicate someone with ADHD, although medication can be a great help for many. It is a personal decision that you can discuss and research. There isn't any reason to wait to evaluate. Your pediatrician should be able to either do the ADHD evaluation him/herself or send you to a pediatric psychiatrist.

 

Gotta run. I'll try to respond more later.

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Not to be glib, but ADHD meds make our home life a thousand times better. Trying them because you feel they are the only options stinks. Trying them because you realize they could help is freeing when it all works out. Take some time to consider it and to see what you need to do in addition to meds (they help the brain be ready, but then the child has to learn some strategies as well). 

 

On professionals--we've all had professionals that were awesome and some that were so-so, and some that were awful. A neuropsych is the gold standard, but really, it's about getting someone who wants to help you and help your child be the best person they can be. They need to be willing to believe what you say, even if it conflicts with a report (and then figure out how to help you if the answers are inconclusive). It's not about them being "right." Some psychs are more about being right than helping, and then they get really picky about labels--they might see only one kind of ADHD and not realize it presents differently in various children, for example (a very oversimplified example!). School psychs can't necessarily diagnose, and they may be limited in what they will test. You can't beat the price, and sometimes you strike gold. Ed psychs are another option. The one we used has been fantastic. We also tried a neuropsych and were not happy. Other people have had exactly the opposite experience. I would try to network with other moms of 2e kids (if you can find an extracurricular gifted program, they will likely have recommendations). You can also read up on 2e (twice-exceptional) kids on Hoagies' Gifted page, Gifted Homeschoolers Forum, etc. Those pages might give you details on what to look for in a psych. 

 

Gifted kids with learning or developmental issues are CHAMELEONS. Get an expert that knows this, and if the expert does not, think long and hard about what you can expect from them so that you have a context for the advice they give you.

 

Sometimes (not always) getting evaluations piecemeal is okay and helpful. Sometimes it makes it harder to find the root cause of an issue. 

 

Some kids do not show all their colors in one round of testing.

 

But yes, labels are doors of opportunity. 

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Not to be glib, but ADHD meds make our home life a thousand times better. Trying them because you feel they are the only options stinks. Trying them because you realize they could help is freeing when it all works out. Take some time to consider it and to see what you need to do in addition to meds (they help the brain be ready, but then the child has to learn some strategies as well). 

 

Thanks for this.  I have an adult friend with ADD, and she has said similar things.  Another hs mom with several special needs kids told me, "Don't medicate as a matter of course; if the kid sees a need for it, then do it.  If they want to come off meds later, check with the pediatrician and let them."  But that would require already having a diagnosis, wouldn't it?

 

On professionals--we've all had professionals that were awesome and some that were so-so, and some that were awful. A neuropsych is the gold standard, but really, it's about getting someone who wants to help you and help your child be the best person they can be. They need to be willing to believe what you say, even if it conflicts with a report (and then figure out how to help you if the answers are inconclusive). It's not about them being "right." Some psychs are more about being right than helping, and then they get really picky about labels--they might see only one kind of ADHD and not realize it presents differently in various children, for example (a very oversimplified example!). School psychs can't necessarily diagnose, and they may be limited in what they will test. You can't beat the price, and sometimes you strike gold. Ed psychs are another option. The one we used has been fantastic. We also tried a neuropsych and were not happy. Other people have had exactly the opposite experience. I would try to network with other moms of 2e kids (if you can find an extracurricular gifted program, they will likely have recommendations). You can also read up on 2e (twice-exceptional) kids on Hoagies' Gifted page, Gifted Homeschoolers Forum, etc. Those pages might give you details on what to look for in a psych. 

 

Gifted kids with learning or developmental issues are CHAMELEONS. Get an expert that knows this, and if the expert does not, think long and hard about what you can expect from them so that you have a context for the advice they give you.

 

I value this advice.  I just hope I can recognize expertise or lack thereof when I see it!  :)

 

 

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Yes, we got an OT eval.   That pediatrician (different state; we've since moved) listened to our concerns about lack of physical sensitivity and referred us immediately.  I don't believe there were any other specialties/evaluations involved.

 

I described 2nd dd's condition as "slight" because the OT did not consider it severe and it's not really noticeable in public.  There are also some odd things that don't fit into the description.  I didn't press about my ADHD concerns because I was under the impression that a medication prescription would be automatic and I wanted to avoid that.  At present, I have no idea if that concern was valid or not.

 

Can I ask a couple of questions?

1. What constitutes a "thorough" evaluation?  Do I get to request certain tests?  How do I know what to ask for?

2. What do you mean by "private?"  Do you mean through some avenue other than the public school?

 

Thanks!

 

No meds are not automatic. If you go to a psychologist, they can't even prescribe meds. If you go to a ped, the only reason for the eval, in reality, is to jump hurdles and get meds. A ped diagnosis is more likely to be incorrect (because it's very cursory and doesn't involve lots of other testing) and the point of it IS indeed to decide on meds. But a psych eval has a lot, lot, lot more you'd get done.

 

You realize that hyposensitivity was listed in the DSM4 under autism as a symptom? I would be exceptionally, exceptionally concerned about that. I'm just saying I'm concerned when I read your post. To me, the level of behavioral difficulties you're hinting at are more than just ADHD. That's just mho, kwim? My dd had the opposite direction, over-sensitive on sensory plus your normal, run of the mill ADHD-inattentive. It was not WAR to school with her. She was fun. Exhausting is my ds. He has autism. And I haven't taught every kid. I'm just saying you can go farther with evals, get a psych eval, get one that is long enough that they're really taking time to tease things apart. You can read the criteria for ASD. Frankly, when a kid has an SPD diagnosis, he's already really, really, really, really close to the criteria for autism. When you look at the SPD screening tools (which I've filled out tons of times for my kids) they're extremely similar to ASD tools. 

 

It's just really important questions to sort through when you're having a hard time, kwim? And as far as what changes, well whether they label it ADHD or ASD or flying fig fruit disease or whatever, there are significant, helpful, easy to implement behavioral materials you could bring in that would make a difference. You've got stuff like Zones of Regulation, We Thinkers, Social Detective... I don't even remember what age we're talking about here. BEHAVIORAL is the place the data says to start, not meds. The studies show that parents who start with behavioral interventions THEN do meds for ADHD are more satisfied with the outcomes than parents who start them at the same time or do them in reverse. There's a lot that can be done now that is not meds.

 

Socialthinking - Articles  Here, this article would give you a start. It explores lots of profiles and helps you discriminate them, so you can see how social thinking and self-regulation instruction can benefit kids across labels, whether it's SPD or ADHD or ASD or whatever. You might even be able to find your dc in there, which would then give you some really good info on how to proceed and what options you might have. 

 

And it's not like the Social Thinking stuff is the *only* way to go, but it's a really good way to go, a way a lot of schools and therapists are going. I've been to multiple of the training sessions, and it has radically improved things with my ds. 

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We've had lots of discussions around here on meds and jump points for meds. It's always a hard decision and one people don't take lightly. I STRONGLY agree with Story that you don't even have the correct diagnoses yet (yes, that was plural) and that without those you don't even have a clue what a good path would be. First get evals till you've gone down all the rabbit trails and sorted everything out. Then look at your options. Some of it depends on the age of the child, the danger of the child to himself or others, etc. We waited a long time on meds and have no regrets on that. We did basically everything else that could be done, including strong use of EF supports, tech, cognitive therapies, you name it. 

 

Now ironically, ds started off with ADHD-combined type diagnosis (actually it was more complex than that, one idiot, overpriced, jerk jerk jerk $$$$ neuropsych actually said he had ADHD-inattentive which was the DUMBEST thing ever said about my ds). Anyways, after we got his retained reflexes integrated, he totally changed. He now passes attention tap tap tests like the Quotient with flying colors. Like literally nobody will give the child meds. Same child had 2 of 3 psychs saying ADHD 2-3 years ago. So I'm not saying reflexes are a cure, but in our case solving some underlying physical problems let his body start acting like where we thought his mind was. WE knew he wasn't ADHD, because the kid has astonishing attention. Like at age 5 he could play Star Trek Catan for hours. That ain't ADHD-inattentive, sorry. Btdt and it just isn't. 

 

So it's a process and impressions can be wrong and family can be wrong and psychs can be wrong. You want to slow down. You want to run lots of tools. You want to sit down with the DSM criteria yourself and get really honest, deep in your soul, about what you're seeing. You basically have to find the psych that specializes in your problem before you can get the problem diagnosed. It shouldn't be that way, but sometimes it is. The jerk we used, it turned out, was subbing lots of the testing to assistants. I had no clue. So he'd give the kids caffeine before and then hand them off to workers. JERK. And maybe in some practices, like the one Story went to, that can have really good results. But with us, I wasn't satisfied. He blew off things I said (why does ds fly like a bird, why does he repeat back paragraphs from audiobooks in a strange voice, etc.etc.). 

 

Some of us have been really burnt by psychs, lol. It's why we get cynical and you get these complex answers. Like Kbutton says, it's more important to slow down and know the psych and how much testing they're doing and what kind, rather than looking at the label on the door. It can take time to find someone, and the psych who is just what one person needs might not be a right fit for the next. If the psych is disrespectful or condescending on the phone, they will be in office too. :(

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Mama Anna, on 05 Oct 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:snapback.png

Well, there is the fact that our second was diagnosed with a slight Proprioceptive Disorder and shows signs of ADHD, though I haven't had her tested since I haven't wanted to label her.  (Should we just go ahead and do it?  Honest question.)  

 

I absolutely would. You don't have to do meds, but you want the paper trail and to keep track of how you accommodate--this will be helpful later if you want accommodations for testing and in college. Plus, knowing helps you decide how to respond instead of just guessing.

 

That said...meds can, in many cases, be very helpful.

 

 

Mama Anna, on 05 Oct 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:snapback.png

I needed to realize (again) that failure isn't finding something difficult; it's giving up.

 

Bless you all.  Keep up the good fight!

 

Amen, and hang in there! It's tough--but you are doing a great job!

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Thanks again for your advice.  I'm spending time reading through various links, etc.  I wanted to clarify our situation a little because I'm afraid I've given an incorrect impression.  We have three daughters:

 

dd 14: Moderately gifted, especially in LA.  Her social abilities have been a concern since our move a little over a year ago, but she now has at least two recurring settings where she seems to feel comfortable and is (according to what we hear from her) able to talk with peers easily.  School for her is only complicated by trying to keep her challenged without overdoing it.

 

dd 11: Likely moderately gifted, very creative.  She was diagnosed with Proprioceptive Disorder about 3 years ago or so.  I think she shows symptoms of ADHD, specifically a tendency to move/hum/etc. ceaselessly, an ability to become very focused on something she enjoys doing, and an occasional difficulty in focusing that drives her to tears.  Her gross motor skills are low, but her fine motor skills have always been impressive.  She is the most outgoing person in the family, is generous to a fault, and very empathetic.  She's one of those people who pick up something to fiddle with and end up with a 3-D work of art.  I read over a list of DSM4 Diagnostic Criteria for Autism and she really doesn't fit any of them.  Difficulties for her in school are that she resists writing (but is willing if I keep my requests reasonable), and finds algebraic math/critical thinking very challenging due to her focus issues.  She'll tell me, "I can't focus - I can't focus!!" and then, with hormones involved, often dissolve into tears.  This hasn't been as bad during this school year yet, but it was almost daily at the end of last year.  I spoke to my brother (the psychology professor) about it because I thought meds might be our only option to help.

 

dd 8:  Challenging.  Very challenging.  Late walker.  Late talker, with odd vocal intonations and hard-to-understand speech.  (In spite of having no ear infections as an infant.)  Very strong-willed, used to bully her older sisters when they didn't give in to her, especially around ages 2 to 6 or so.  Very low frustration threshold, often frustrated with herself.  Somewhat perfectionistic, wants to hold herself to her sisters' levels of ability.  Her gross and fine motor skills are at least somewhat delayed.  Loves to talk and will talk ceaselessly, becoming annoyed at "interruptions" - when her sisters or parents want to get a word in edge-wise after 5 minutes or so.  She has a somewhat advanced vocabulary.  Very good at telling others what to do, and quite good at solving problems in the family - if a rather untactful in the process.

 

In school, writing tires her out - as in a line of cursive, with pencil pressed hard against paper, will exhaust her over the course of the 5 to 15 (or more) minutes it takes.  She often has difficulty formulating what she wants to say in a history or science narration - and since I usually scribe for her still, that part doesn't involve the writing.  She's just turned onto reading in the past 6 months or so and is beginning to work through easy chapter books on her own, although I can tell that she guesses often.  Her spelling could be considered grade-level (We use Spelling Power and she tested into level C this year.)   She doesn't seem to have difficulty with arithmetic concepts, but the facts are a challenge.  Grammar makes sense to her, she only struggles with written exercises because of the writing.  School is difficult because she so often gets frustrated and "melts" off her chair onto the floor.  When she's not frustrated, she's a bright, energetic child (loves to dance) who is trying hard on the social niceties that we've worked on within the family.  Socially, she's very intense or else completely shy and doesn't have very many friendships.  Our neighbor's grandson comes over occasionally and they seem to do well together (same age), but in a group she doesn't do so well.

 

Our homeschool isn't horrible.  It can be intensely stressful, especially when both youngers are having difficulty at the same time and we've got a time limit on us due to outside activities.  However, we tend to fuel school with humor and add chocolate for lubrication as needed.  My personal troubles are because gently talking someone out of a fit of tears or off the floor from a "melt" is not my natural reaction and I find it exhausting.  It's good for me, though; character development.  :)  There have been times when it's seemed that I won't stay sane if I have to keep "pushing" dd8 through school every. single. day.  We've considered putting her in public school, but I'm not convinced that they would have the energy or time to keep her going.  I fear they would label her, give her only as much input as she can handle output, and all the social stuff would only get worse.  This means that it's me.  Which can look like DOOM on days when depression is toying with me, you know?

 

I've tried to consider dd8 as simply on the edge of "normal" for years, partially because I didn't want people nosing around our homeschool (that was in a state where we weren't required by law to notify and therefore hadn't) and partially because I didn't want to be the mom to insist that all my children must be "special."  Except that now I think they might actually be . . .

 

Part of my difficulty is that I have no reference for what "normal" actually is.  I come from a weird family and I married a weird guy.  We're not very close to the people in his family who might actually be "normal," and I seriously don't know that anyone in my family is.  I find myself thinking, "Well, it's understandable . . . I can see this or that tendency coming from . . . " until a kid does something that my mind just can't rationalize as "normal" anymore, even by our weird standards.  Then I think of seeking an expert opinion.  

 

Sorry.  That was a lot.  But you all are offering valuable insights and I want to make sure that you have a better handle on my perception of what's going on.

 

Any further insights?  I've been thinking APD for dd8, but what else should I investigate in order to be ready to make specific requests for evaluations?

 

TIA,

Mama Anna

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:grouphug:

 

I think getting a neuropsych evaluation for the youngest is a good idea. What you wrote out in that post would be excellent information for you to take to the appointment, because it presents several avenues for them to explore with testing.

 

Since you asked -- for the 8 year old, dysgraphia sounds like a possibility, due to motor skill issues and trouble with both the physical act of writing and getting ideas out. Running a CTOPP to test for phonological issues would be beneficial. Social skills (also called pragmatics) is another area to ask them to test, as well as general language skills. Someone can have good verbal ability but still have language holes. A good NP will run IQ testing; probably the WISC, which will measure working memory, verbal and nonverbal skills, processing speed, fluid reasoning, etc. You can ask them to screen for ADHD and if you suspect autism could be possible, the NP may run something like the GARS, which is a screening tool (but a full screening for autism would involve more).

 

For the 11 year old, the writing and math issues could be rooted in ADHD, or they could be indications of possible learning disabilities in those areas. For DS13, medicating the ADHD at age 9  really enabled him to work on math without getting so frustrated. The difference was striking; instead of being so overwhelmed by the idea of doing math that he couldn't even get started, he became able to actually get it done. Now, he does have a math disability as well, so math is still hard for him. But with the meds, tackling it becomes possible. That's just a little picture of the affects that meds had on one person; it is not meant to promote the idea of meds, but just to show that ADHD can have a big impact on ability to accomplish academics, and treating it in some way (meds or other therapy) can make things easier.

 

You could purse academic testing for the 11 year old, as well as ADHD testing, if you suspect there is an issue other than focusing that is causing problems. Honestly, it is sometimes really hard to tell, and unless you do testing, you are just guessing, and it's easy to guess wrong. But it is possible for ADHD alone to make the academics extremely difficult, even without learning disabilities.

 

You probably know this, but the public school can run testing for learning disabilities for free. I think you are on the right track by requesting NP testing for the 8 year old. You may be able to figure out what the 11 year old's issues are with less testing (and less money) than a NP would do, by talking to the doctor about ADHD testing. If improving focus does not make enough difference, you could then pursue academic testing through the school or privately.

 

In other words, I think there are enough red flags to pursue the NP testing for the 8 year old, but you may be able to find help for the 11 year old without the expense of NP testing.

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Since you asked -- for the 8 year old, dysgraphia sounds like a possibility, due to motor skill issues and trouble with both the physical act of writing and getting ideas out. Running a CTOPP to test for phonological issues would be beneficial. Social skills (also called pragmatics) is another area to ask them to test, as well as general language skills. Someone can have good verbal ability but still have language holes. A good NP will run IQ testing; probably the WISC, which will measure working memory, verbal and nonverbal skills, processing speed, fluid reasoning, etc. You can ask them to screen for ADHD and if you suspect autism could be possible, the NP may run something like the GARS, which is a screening tool (but a full screening for autism would involve more).

 

Thank you!  This is exactly the type of thing I was hoping for.  I'll see if I can find more information on these tests.

 

For the 11 year old, the writing and math issues could be rooted in ADHD, or they could be indications of possible learning disabilities in those areas. For DS13, medicating the ADHD at age 9  really enabled him to work on math without getting so frustrated. The difference was striking; instead of being so overwhelmed by the idea of doing math that he couldn't even get started, he became able to actually get it done. Now, he does have a math disability as well, so math is still hard for him. But with the meds, tackling it becomes possible. That's just a little picture of the affects that meds had on one person; it is not meant to promote the idea of meds, but just to show that ADHD can have a big impact on ability to accomplish academics, and treating it in some way (meds or other therapy) can make things easier.

 

Thank you again.  Dd11 does well with general arithmetic (though fractions can send her over the edge) but now she's seeing hints of algebra and I'm wondering if she's simply not ready for such abstract stuff.  She's also finding Critical Thinking to be a challenge, but that's very similar to math in many ways . . .  She is a young 11 and, if we keep with our present math trajectory, would be doing MUS Pre-Algebra next year just as she's turning 12.  I may need to give her a year of something else in between, or it could be that medication would focus her in to where things crystallize.  I'll to keep my options open as I watch her through this year.

 

You probably know this, but the public school can run testing for learning disabilities for free. I think you are on the right track by requesting NP testing for the 8 year old. You may be able to figure out what the 11 year old's issues are with less testing (and less money) than a NP would do, by talking to the doctor about ADHD testing. If improving focus does not make enough difference, you could then pursue academic testing through the school or privately.

 

I hadn't thought about going through the school system.  I'll need to do some research there, too.

 

Thanks!

Mama Anna

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