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#1 4kookiekids

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 02:52 PM

I am not chomping at the bit to have my kiddos tested. If they want into something that requires certain scores when they're older, I'm happy to cross that bridge when we get there. Right now, my oldest is content to play outside for most of the day and play legos the rest of the day, and I'm cool with that (he makes some really cool things - last month he created a gun that actually shot when you pulled a real trigger!). BUT I've also read that after age 8, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify anything beyond moderate giftedness, so I'm a bit concerned about missing the boat if I don't have my 8 year old tested. Will I miss a "prime" window for testing, or can you always get accurate scores down the road?

 

On another note, I'm curious (for a friend, so different child than mine mentioned above) about testing a child who's not the typical reading-at-age-3 kid (she's more into math and music), and so I wonder if her lack of fluency reading will have a disproportionate effect on any testing she does. Any thoughts on this?

Edited for clarity. :)


Edited by 4kookiekids, 30 September 2017 - 08:51 AM.


#2 quark

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 05:31 PM

Was it this one?

http://forums.welltr...igence-testing/



#3 4kookiekids

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 08:21 PM

 

Hmmm. Well that is certainly one of the ones I was looking for (I don't know why it didn't appear in my search results when I searched "testing"!), but it doesn't answer these questions, I don't think. I feel like I've seen threads on age being important when considering testing, at least, though I don't know that I recall ever seeing a thread on bright kids who are average or even later readers (maybe such kids really don't exist, and so all the kids who read later are only moderately bright? That seems unlikely to me, but I have nothing to go off of! :) )



#4 Arcadia

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 11:23 PM

I feel like I've seen threads on age being important when considering testing, at least, though I don't know that I recall ever seeing a thread on bright kids who are average or even later readers (maybe such kids really don't exist, and so all the kids who read later are only moderately bright? That seems unlikely to me, but I have nothing to go off of! :) )

If you are wondering about late readers being gifted, maybe look at this old thread
http://forums.welltr...ge-age-readers/

If you are wondering about what age to test your child, there is no definite answer anyone can give you. The IQ tests do have a ceiling effect. For public schools, many would suggest school wide testing at 3rd grade because the hothousing effect is supposed to level off and the late bloomers are catching up.

My DS11 would have just given random answers at a young age. He pretended not being able to read when my husband tested him but could read at above 6th grade level when the public school teacher tested him during the first week of kindergarten. I threatened him with remedial K English if he did not do the reading test properly for the teacher as I knew he could read. We did the WISC testing 2.5 years ago when our boys were 9 and 10. DS11 has many complaints from teachers since kindergarten so my husband finally gave up and paid for ADHD, autism evaluation and IQ testing for him. DS12 was IQ tested at a different time by the same tester because my husband was curious. DS12 was tested first followed by DS11 because DS12 is extremely quiet by nature and has a poker face. He will not leak test questions. DS11 however would have unintentionally leaked test questions because he is by nature chatty. So one child was a need and one child was a curiosity. My DS12 has always been serious with testing even as a preschooler in Saturday Chinese class. We just didn’t see a need to test since we didn’t get complaints from teachers and most teachers just accommodate him the best they could in public school.

For your friend, there are non verbal tests. Link is to a news article about a two year old who qualified for Mensa in my home country. My home country is an academic pressure cooker though and people tend to send their kids to IQ tests at a very young age even though there is no gifted program until 4th grade.

“Only seven children around his age have joined the local chapter of Mensa in the past four years. The youngest on its record is a boy aged two years and two months when Mensa accepted him last November. An average child has an IQ of 100.

Elijah took the Stanford Binet test which measures analytical and reasoning abilities. The IQ test, with a score of up to 160, is used widely around the world.

He was tested on logic, mathematics, picture puzzles and number sequences. He scored the highest - 149 - in quantitative reasoning, the ability to use numerical skills to solve problems.”
http://www.straitsti...mensa-singapore

#5 quark

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:37 AM

Hmmm. Well that is certainly one of the ones I was looking for (I don't know why it didn't appear in my search results when I searched "testing"!), but it doesn't answer these questions, I don't think. I feel like I've seen threads on age being important when considering testing, at least, though I don't know that I recall ever seeing a thread on bright kids who are average or even later readers (maybe such kids really don't exist, and so all the kids who read later are only moderately bright? That seems unlikely to me, but I have nothing to go off of! :) )

 

I don't rely on the board's search function because it rarely works for me. Instead I google "well trained mind + search term".

HTH!

 

About age...what Arcadia said about 8 being a good age to test by. I've not updated my research from years ago but at the time, when I was researching age to test, I repeatedly saw anecdotes about 6 to 8yo yielding the most accurate results. On hindsight, I think I should have tested kiddo at about 7-ish vs 8-ish.
 



#6 4kookiekids

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 05:51 AM

If you are wondering about what age to test your child, there is no definite answer anyone can give you. The IQ tests do have a ceiling effect. For public schools, many would suggest school wide testing at 3rd grade because the hothousing effect is supposed to level off and the late bloomers are catching up.

 

 

Ah, I think this is what I was trying to remember. Thanks! (I assume "hothousing" is where parents push their kids at really young ages?)

 

For your friend, there are non verbal tests. Link is to a news article about a two year old who qualified for Mensa in my home country. My home country is an academic pressure cooker though and people tend to send their kids to IQ tests at a very young age even though there is no gifted program until 4th grade.
 

 

I'm curious about this: would you recommend a nonverbal one to a child who is very verbal, but just a late reader?



#7 4kookiekids

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 10:05 AM

I don't rely on the board's search function because it rarely works for me. Instead I google "well trained mind + search term".

HTH!

 

About age...what Arcadia said about 8 being a good age to test by. I've not updated my research from years ago but at the time, when I was researching age to test, I repeatedly saw anecdotes about 6 to 8yo yielding the most accurate results. On hindsight, I think I should have tested kiddo at about 7-ish vs 8-ish.
 

 

Ha ha. Good to know regarding the search function. I was really trying hard because I knew that I had posted *something* about testing myself - and then I couldn't find it! :p

I'm curious why you feel you should've tested closer to 7 than 8, if you don't mind sharing?



#8 Arcadia

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 10:17 AM

(I assume "hothousing" is where parents push their kids at really young ages?)

By the general public yes. Hothousing refers to parents pushing their kids at young age.

For the public schools, it also encompasses kids who were taught early at academic based preschool, dual immersion childcare. So hothousing but not directly by parents. Some teachers would consider Kumon hothousing while others would think of it as cheaper babysitting for parents who need a break. Same goes for places like Mathnasium and Russian School of Mathematics. I know my local Mathnasium, Kumon and RSM are not hothouses but there are parents who used them that way.

For researchers who are looking at nature vs nurture, they are also thinking about how nurturing education wise the home environment is; parents reading to kids, availability of books, parents talking to kids, logic games of all kinds (including chess).

For a kindergartener that did not come from an enriched environment, there are disadvantages in the logic section.
For example look at this NNAT sample that a test prep company put out, kids who have not done similar things at home are going to be at a slight disadvantage. Same goes for MENSA testing. So I do agree that disadvantaged kids might be missed out if GATE program screening starts in K.
https://m.testprep-o...nal_Product.pdf

I'm curious about this: would you recommend a nonverbal one to a child who is very verbal, but just a late reader?

I am assuming you are asking about your child as your friend’s child would have every instruction read to them due to age.

If it is a one to one test Iike the WISC that my kids did, the tester reads all the instructions so reading wasn’t an issue as long as the child is verbal and can follow instructions.

Reading wasn’t tested at all. It’s the ability to listen to he tester and answer verbally. That’s why I had to let the tester know my oldest talks sparingly so she knows his answers are likely to be curt while younger boy gives verbose answers.

If it is a screening test like the OLSAT which my kids also tried, the tester we used will read for a younger child while the older child will read the instructions themselves. We went for the online version and my younger boy took a higher grade level test then so he could do it himself independently instead of having the tester on the phone. My kids had fun with that test and it was cheap. The OLSAT score report wasn’t useful but the score did surprised my husband.

CogAT is another common screening test. That might require reading the instructions themselves for older kids.

What information are you hoping to get? That might determine whether it is worth hunting for universities that offer IQ tests at a much lower rate than private testing. Or if you even need an IQ test to be done.

We have private gifted schools here that want IQ test scores. Our tester was willing to write a report for those schools if we decide to apply for any of those after the testing. We can’t afford the tuition for two kids so we didn’t consider that route.

ETA:
My husband wasn’t willing to spend on testing so we waited until the complaints were too many and he switched employers to this current one that has an employee health insurance plan with HSA. We used HSA funds to pay.

Edited by Arcadia, 30 September 2017 - 10:20 AM.


#9 Jackie

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:00 AM

I've also read that 6-8 is the ideal range for testing. Younger tended to yield uneven results. Older tended to have ceiling effects and/or kids masking their abilities due to peer pressure.

We tested at 6-almost-7, as part of an eval being done to sort out some other diagnoses. The tester told us that reading ability would be a non-issue because the test did not assume reading ability at her age. I'm glad we tested early because the diagnoses themselves have been helpful to have. Additionally, the tester believes that the ADHD was possibly what was playing havoc with the results. She recommended that if we wanted a more accurate score, we retest after a couple years of ADHD treatment. No idea if we'll retest, but it's good to see how these pieces are playing against each other.

#10 Jean in Newcastle

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:18 AM

My son was tested at age 16 and clearly tested as gifted. There are adult IQ tests. But perhaps I am not quite understanding the question?


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#11 Pawz4me

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:42 AM

My son was tested at age 16 and clearly tested as gifted. There are adult IQ tests. But perhaps I am not quite understanding the question?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Ditto, except my DS was tested at 17. He did hit the ceiling on a couple of subtests. But I don't know if that's what's being referred to or not. I assume all IQ tests have a ceiling, though?

 

If 2e is a concern (that's the reason we tested) my understanding is that in order to qualify for any accommodations most (all?) universities require testing normed at the adult level, which generally means it has to be done after the student turns 16.


Edited by Pawz4me, 30 September 2017 - 11:42 AM.

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#12 Jean in Newcastle

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 11:51 AM

Ditto, except my DS was tested at 17. He did hit the ceiling on a couple of subtests. But I don't know if that's what's being referred to or not. I assume all IQ tests have a ceiling, though?

 

If 2e is a concern (that's the reason we tested) my understanding is that in order to qualify for any accommodations most (all?) universities require testing normed at the adult level, which generally means it has to be done after the student turns 16.

 

Precisely.  That is why we tested when we did.  We cannot afford multiple tests and a test that could actually be used for accommodations in college was a higher priority for us.  I already knew he was gifted long before that and taught him at his level in our homeschool.  And yes, ds did top out on a couple of subtests. 


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#13 Pawz4me

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:03 PM

Precisely.  That is why we tested when we did.  We cannot afford multiple tests and a test that could actually be used for accommodations in college was a higher priority for us.  I already knew he was gifted long before that and taught him at his level in our homeschool.  And yes, ds did top out on a couple of subtests. 

 

Our insurance covers testing, so we could have done it long ago and then repeated it after he turned 16. But we didn't see any good reason for doing it until there was a need.


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#14 Arcadia

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:16 PM

Our insurance covers testing, so we could have done it long ago and then repeated it after he turned 16. But we didn't see any good reason for doing it until there was a need.


Is testing later required if my friend’s public school high school kid has an IEP? Or would the school IEP be good enough proof for college accommodations. Her child is either in 10th or 11th grade in Illinois.

#15 quark

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:47 PM

.

Edited by quark, 30 September 2017 - 03:56 PM.


#16 Jean in Newcastle

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 12:52 PM

The question was whether you could test later.   When you actually choose to test and whether you do it privately or through the school system or the myriad of other variables are going to depend on the individual family's needs. 


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#17 Pawz4me

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 01:57 PM

Is testing later required if my friend’s public school high school kid has an IEP? Or would the school IEP be good enough proof for college accommodations. Her child is either in 10th or 11th grade in Illinois.

 

I'm certainly not an expert, but I think most universities require full psycho-educational testing (at an adult level) in order to get classroom accommodations. 

 

Again, not an expert but I believe the IDEA covers regulations for IEPs from K-12 (and maybe preschool services?). Post-secondary education accommodations are covered under the ADA and I think to some extent the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

 

So different laws, different boxes to check and I don't think a high school IEP has much to do with college accommodations.


Edited by Pawz4me, 30 September 2017 - 01:58 PM.

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#18 4kookiekids

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 02:51 PM


I am assuming you are asking about your child as your friend’s child would have every instruction read to them due to age.

If it is a one to one test Iike the WISC that my kids did, the tester reads all the instructions so reading wasn’t an issue as long as the child is verbal and can follow instructions.

Reading wasn’t tested at all. It’s the ability to listen to he tester and answer verbally. That’s why I had to let the tester know my oldest talks sparingly so she knows his answers are likely to be curt while younger boy gives verbose answers.
 

It was actually for the other child. I should've been more clear: She's 6 now, and reading a little, but definitely nothing brilliant, was all that I meant when I said she's not the "reading-at-3" type of bright. I just wondered how much (if at all) that would affect her results. In particular, I expect she'll catch up and then excel very quickly - but that makes more sense in light of your "giving late bloomers time to catch up" comment, and maybe she'd be better off waiting until closer to 8 then.

 

As far as my own kid, I don't think I'm hoping to get any info. I think I was thinking that if he wanted (blank) scores for (blank) program at a future time, we should do the testing at the "right" time. But as I've thought about it more, I find it doubtful that they would want really old scores anyway, so just doing the testing as/if needed in the future if he does run across a program that requires it is probably the best road for us. In our area, they are very strict about ages regardless of ability anyway (summer camp was a bit dicey as a result, but we survived and had fun anyway).



#19 Megbo

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:19 PM

The psychologist who tested Ds7 told us that if we wanted to get Ds9 tested for giftedness, we should do it right away. Her explanation was that the WISC-V is the best measure for assessing for giftedness - it's the most commonly used IQ test for children, the one that is easiest for schools, teachers, etc. to interpret, the one that kids tend not to screw up on, and it doesn't rely on any academic skills (reading or formal math). It's designed for kids ages 6-16, and has the same ceilings for all ages (except for the processing speed subtests). For that reason, older gifted kids are likely to hit the ceiling on one or more subtests, which can depress their overall scores. So, the same kid who scores a 145 at age 7 could score a 135 at 13, just because there aren't enough hard items on the test. Using an IQ test designed for a wider range of ages (the WJ-IV, for example), would limit the possibility of a kid hitting the ceiling on any subtests, but they are less ideal for using with kids. 

 

In the end, Ds9 did hit the ceiling on several WISC-V subtests, so I can see why 7 or 8 would be the ideal age for testing a gifted kid. 


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#20 Jean in Newcastle

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Posted 30 September 2017 - 03:39 PM

Is testing later required if my friend’s public school high school kid has an IEP? Or would the school IEP be good enough proof for college accommodations. Her child is either in 10th or 11th grade in Illinois.

 

Do they have some colleges in mind?  Go to the college website and look for what is required for accommodations.  It is usually under the Disability Resource Center tab.  Ds' college does not allow an IEP to be used for accommodations.  It must be a "clear, objective medical / clinical evaluation" and has to list certain things as outlined by the college.  The college's requirements are set by our state association of post secondary disability. 

 

Note:  this is for kids who are 2E and who need actual accommodations to help them succeed in the classroom.  Being gifted itself is not covered. 


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#21 Crimson Wife

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 11:15 AM

 

As far as my own kid, I don't think I'm hoping to get any info. I think I was thinking that if he wanted (blank) scores for (blank) program at a future time, we should do the testing at the "right" time. But as I've thought about it more, I find it doubtful that they would want really old scores anyway, so just doing the testing as/if needed in the future if he does run across a program that requires it is probably the best road for us. In our area, they are very strict about ages regardless of ability anyway (summer camp was a bit dicey as a result, but we survived and had fun anyway).

 

Most GATE programs will accept talent search tests, which are significantly cheaper. The child who scores well on the SAT/ACT in middle school is almost certainly gifted.

 

We've never bothered with an IQ test for our middle child but have just done talent search testing.

 

Oldest had IQ testing at age 4 because we were trying to figure out educational placement. Once we decided to HS, we switched to talent search testing.

 

Youngest had a full neuropsych eval at 6 because of her special needs. I'm planning on having further testing for her since that was recommended but will wait until after the school does its triennial evaluation (due in January). There are also a bunch of language tests normed starting at age 9 so it makes sense to wait until after her birthday so that she could potentially be tested with those. A gifted kid who is not "twice exceptional" would not need to worry about those.
 


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#22 wapiti

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 12:13 PM

Testing in the 6-8 range can be very helpful if there's a possible 2e situation or if strengths and weaknesses need some identification for homeschooling purposes and, of course, for admission to any special programs.  Beyond those scenarios, if you know your child well, I don't think it's necessary to have paper evidence of giftedness.  Another exception would be a need to place the child in B&M school, again looking for admission to a special program.  Homeschooling's custom fit advantage doesn't require a score.  High school standardized testing will come soon enough and is much more consequential than some result from 6-8.

 

We tested our older 3 through a private ed psych in the 6-8 range.  There were 2e concerns and so forth and I found it informative.  We have not tested our younger 3 privately, though they have each had the CogAT at school - a terrible screening test, IMO.  It'll be interesting to see what it says for my youngest (I find out this week) but as a mere curiosity.  One kid's score was unremarkable in 3rd grade and gifted in 5th - the only one to take it in 5th grade so far. Another one, again unremarkable on the CogAT in 3rd, scored somewhere around 98th/99th percentile on psat 8/9 in 8th.  In my old age, I'm much more confident in my own perception of their abilities than I was when we were all younger.



#23 arliemaria

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Posted 02 October 2017 - 05:46 PM

I am not chomping at the bit to have my kiddos tested. If they want into something that requires certain scores when they're older, I'm happy to cross that bridge when we get there. Right now, my oldest is content to play outside for most of the day and play legos the rest of the day, and I'm cool with that (he makes some really cool things - last month he created a gun that actually shot when you pulled a real trigger!). BUT I've also read that after age 8, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify anything beyond moderate giftedness, so I'm a bit concerned about missing the boat if I don't have my 8 year old tested. Will I miss a "prime" window for testing, or can you always get accurate scores down the road?

 

On another note, I'm curious (for a friend, so different child than mine mentioned above) about testing a child who's not the typical reading-at-age-3 kid (she's more into math and music), and so I wonder if her lack of fluency reading will have a disproportionate effect on any testing she does. Any thoughts on this?

Edited for clarity. :)

 

We pursued testing for my son last fall.  He was 7 then and not reading well even after we had done years of work on phonics, etc. He did very very well on the WISC-V. He is a math/science kid, he also could not count (rather refused) to count beyond 13/14 the previous year because he had trouble properly saying thirteen fourteen.  I don't put a lot of faith in developmental timelines for gifted children anymore. They might learn something very early or they could do it later. If they are behind they usually learn what they were behind on plus the next three developmental skills in very quickly.  Robby for example went from counting to 20 to memorizing squares/cubes (or as he says 'building houses in his mind') in a few days.  They did say because of his academic scores vs. iq testing that he had such a 'specific learning disability in basic reading skills'. This makes him twice exceptional. His reading has begun to pick up, but still would not test near his other areas like comprehension/vocabulary that were consistent with iq.