Article about enrollment on UCI and UCSD campuses

[8filltheheart]

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/science/sd-me-uci-ucsandiego-20170920-story.html

 

I have been corresponding with a group of parents with current freshman since jr yr of high school. One has a student with 775+ students in multiple classes. It is interesting bc some of the parents are completely coming from the perspective that that is the norm at state schools.

 

Thankfully, it has not been the norm for any of my kids. My current freshman has about 40 students in her large classes. Some of her friends are in a couple of freshman classes with 150 students but nothing even close to 800 kids. For kids who struggle or tend to get lost in a crowd, I imagine those systems are completely overwhelming.

[regentrude]

I have been corresponding with a group of parents with current freshman since jr yr of high school. One has a student with 775+ students in multiple classes. It is interesting bc some of the parents are completely coming from the perspective that that is the norm at state schools.

 

Thankfully, it has not been the norm for any of my kids. My current freshman has about 40 students in her large classes. Some of her friends are in a couple of freshman classes with 150 students but nothing even close to 800 kids. For kids who struggle or tend to get lost in a crowd, I imagine those systems are completely overwhelming.

 

Just want to say a few words about large classes.

How well this works depends on how these classes are structured. The introductory courses in my department have 500- 600 students; one of these courses is the one I teach. That sounds like a faceless mass where individuals could drown, but in reality, students can get a lot of individual attention: not only are they broken into three lecture sections, but also into smaller discussion sections of 35 students that meet twice a week and are taught by faculty. In addition to the mandatory classes, I run a Learning Center for ten hours a week where students drop in, work on homework, ask questions; this is staffed by student assistants and by faculty. So, even in a class of 600, a student has the opportunity to sit down one on one with an instructor.

 

Of course it is also possible to run large classes in a way students feel warehoused and lost. But the mere fact that a class has a large enrollment does not really say anything. 

[SeaConquest]

Yup, and the Cal States are just as bad, if not worse, as most are severely impacted. My summer (upper division) physiology class at SDSU had 150 people in it. Coming from a liberal arts background, it was the largest class I'd ever taken. The SDSU students all told me that it was the smallest class they had ever taken. I was also not used to exams being multiple choice/scantron. I hadn't had one of those exams since high school. But, I guess with hundreds of students, there's not much else to be done. Still, the learning felt much more superficial.

 The introductory courses in my department have 500- 600 students;  not only are they broken into three lecture sections, but also into smaller discussion sections of 35 students that meet twice a week and are taught by faculty. In addition to the mandatory classes, 

 

Can you clarify what you mean by the bolded?  8's original post made it sound like her definition of a class is 700+ students sitting in one lecture hall all at once, but in your case it sounds like you've got at most 200 student sitting on each lecture.

 

It strikes me that there's a big difference between the two.  I suspect that a student might be able to ask a question in a 200 seat lecture hall, but that's just not feasible in a 700+ setting.

[regentrude]

Can you clarify what you mean by the bolded?  8's original post made it sound like her definition of a class is 700+ students sitting in one lecture hall all at once, but in your case it sounds like you've got at most 200 student sitting on each lecture.

 

It strikes me that there's a big difference between the two.  I suspect that a student might be able to ask a question in a 200 seat lecture hall, but that's just not feasible in a 700+ setting.

 

LOL - we don't have the resources to seat 500 people in the same auditorium; there is no such room on the entire campus.

They are sitting in lectures in groups of 150 (some are in an online section). However, it is still the same "class", and parents would hear "Introductory physics is a large enrollment class of 600". That's why I wanted to encourage people to look into the details before they are scared off by such a statement.

 

But also, the actual learning does not happen in lecture anyway. The actual learning happens when the student engages with the material outside of class :) You don't learn physics by watching somebody do physics problems in lecture; you have to practice problem solving yourself. Just like you don't learn to play the piano by watching a pianist play; you learn by practicing. 

So, the size of a lecture section has mainly psychological effect and does not make as big of a difference as people tend to think.

 

Edited September 30, 2017 by regentrude

[yvonne]

 

So, the size of a lecture section has mainly psychological effect and does not make as big of a difference as people tend to think.

 

This could be the case for physics and math, but large sections would make a big difference in a literature or maybe most humanities courses. 

[regentrude]

This could be the case for physics and math, but large sections would make a big difference in a literature or maybe most humanities courses. 

 

Please note that I specifically said size of the lecture section. If it's an English or humanities lecture, it does not matter how large the size is either - a lecture has a professor lecturing and is not the place for discussions and active work. The size of the audience is largely irrelevant for that.

I was not referring to discussion sections, recitations, or seminars which are about interaction and active work. There, class size obviously matters, irrespective of discipline.

Edited September 30, 2017 by regentrude

[SeaConquest]

Please note that I specifically said size of the lecture section. If it's an English or humanities lecture, it does not matter how large the size is either - a lecture has a professor lecturing and is not the place for discussions and active work. The size of the audience is largely irrelevant for that.

I was not referring to discussion sections, recitations, or seminars which are about interaction and active work. There, class size obviously matters, irrespective of discipline.

Again, this is a very large university perspective. I never had a class in undergrad larger than 25 people, or in law school larger than 50-60. The professor lectured, but also interacted with the students for questions, comments, discussion, and debate. Only at large schools do they have this arbitrary delineation, and it most certainly impacts the learning environment IMO.

[yvonne]

Again, this is a very large university perspective. I never had a class in undergrad larger than 25 people, or in law school larger than 50-60. The professor lectured, but also interacted with the students for questions, comments, discussion, and debate. Only at large schools do they have this arbitrary delineation, and it most certainly impacts the learning environment IMO.

 

Likewise, I have no experience whatsoever with a large university. I attended a liberal arts college and never had a class larger than 25. I can't imagine attending purely one-way lectures in a literature or history class with 100 or more other students. 

 

Even in a large, 100+ student lecture, isn't there some student-teacher interaction? 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by yvonne

[Corraleno]

As someone whose homeschool has relied extensively on Teaching Company lectures, the idea of large lectures where students just listen would not be a big deal to me, even for humanities courses. It's mostly the intro courses that have such large classes, and at that level the goal of the course is often just imparting general background info on the subject.  Once you get into majors courses, the size is usually a lot smaller and there's plenty of opportunity for in-depth class discussion

 

I attended a small LAC for undergrad but went to a huge university for grad school, where I was both a student in lectures of 150 students (where lots of students did ask questions) and a TA in courses that had 400 or so students in a lecture hall. Even with 400 students, there was still an opportunity to ask questions at the end of the lecture, but most of the discussion happened in sections of 15-20 students, which met once/wk. And both the profs and TAs had office hours for further questions and discussion.

 

 

[regentrude]

As someone whose homeschool has relied extensively on Teaching Company lectures, the idea of large lectures where students just listen would not be a big deal to me, even for humanities courses.

 

Great that you mention this. Our Ancients high school course included 168 TC lectures. We learned a ton by listening to Elizabeth Vandiver lecture for 48 hours (the number of class hours in a 3 credit college class). Without the chance to ask her questions or go to her office hours. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by regentrude

[8filltheheart]

To clarify, I am describing # of kids in a single section in a single lecture hall, not the # of kids taking a course across sections.

 

One parent described 700 students in her son's linear alg lecture. Another parent (different UC school) described 1000 students in an intro to CS section. Those numbers are large. They didn't go on to state anything about recitation sections, but I am sure they must have them.

 

The recitations don't change my thoughts on the matter. For kids who might struggle with feeling just like a numberless face, those numbers are large, triple to quadruple the largest lecture my kids have ever encountered. (One of mine did have a 250 student lecture for 1 class, but that was unusual, not the norm. Avg large lectures have been between 80-130 students and all of those still had small recitation classes. If student might feel overwhlemed in class of 150, in a class of 700-1000 those feelings will be amplified.)

[Lilaclady]

I think this is why it is a good idea to find out information about schools before attending.

 

I don't think there is a big deal about a section of a class being large. My dd is in a college class that has over 500 students. The lecturer lectures for about 50 mins on Mondays, Wednesday's and Fridays. On Tuesdays and Thursday's she and about 15 other students, have recitations with a grad student TA who go over questions, work out problem sets etc. sometimes the TA even breaks them up into groups of 4 to work together.

 

This is a good use of time and it seems to work well. If a student feels they will be lost in that environment, then there are over 3000 other schools to choose from.

 

ETA yes the professor and the TA's also have office hours

Edited October 1, 2017 by Lilaclady

[wapiti]

Even in a large, 100+ student lecture, isn't there some student-teacher interaction? 

 

In law school (ours was not large, 200 students per grade level), most of the basic 1L sections were 100 students each.  They were taught socratically and yes, I was called on frequently enough, way up there in the back row  :tongue_smilie:.  However, I think the classrooms were designed with acoustics in mind.  There was the time that dh (not in my section) wanted to ask the professor a question as class was ending and students were packing up.  "Excuse me, Professor ___!"  He used his booming army officer voice lol and our friends can probably recall that moment to this day.

 

It would be nice to be able to ask questions in the moment without having to wait until later.  I don't know where the cutoff for that would be; >200 would seem too many for that.  500-1000 is hard for me to imagine.

 

Our latest to-do list includes a self-guided tour of UCLA, sigh...

[Arcadia]

If student might feel overwhlemed in class of 150, in a class of 700-1000 those feelings will be amplified.)

 

I’m not surprised by UCSD and UCI’s lecture class sizes. For California state universities with all the local news of overcrowding, I think parents and high school students should expect big class sizes and ask for their respective majors how big the lecture class size currently is if it would factor into the child applying there.

 

My high school math lectures had a class size of more than 400 and the lecturers still know us because they do the tutorial sessions twice a week in classes of maximum 25 students. My alma mater’s lecture theatres are huge and there are microphones set up on the aisles for students to ask questions. The ascoutics is actually good enough for those of us with loud booming voices to ask from our seats instead of walking to a microphone. I actually prefer large lecture classes so that actually make all my university choices big universities with predominantly large lecture class size. Smaller than a 200 lecture class size actually make me feel like a tutorial session instead of a lecture.

 

So high school juniors and seniors have to check how lecture class size and style fit with their personality and learning style.

 

Our latest to-do list includes a self-guided tour of UCLA, sigh...

My husband has a business trip there next month to interview undergrads for jobs. We’ll tag along since he is driving 5hrs down from here.

[wapiti]

My husband has a business trip there next month to interview undergrads for jobs. We’ll tag along since he is driving 5hrs down from here.

 

We are in an exploration stage - locations, sizes, etc.  UCLA will count for the large university category.  Will do the official tour at SCU - I just noticed last night that it is on a quarter system and I don't have familiarity with that.

 

I'm thinking we should write some actual notes after each college visit, lest we forget stuff.

[yvonne]

Write notes and take photos. 

 

I'm finding that having photos, including some with the student guide in it, as we toured the campus jogs my memory of where we heard & saw what. It was hard to take notes while walking & talking.

[Arcadia]

Will do the official tour at SCU - I just noticed last night that it is on a quarter system and I don't have familiarity with that.

SCU is on our list for possible dual enrollment as it is near to us. Next year my oldest can apply for their young scholars program https://www.scu.edu/ysp/

Edited October 1, 2017 by Arcadia

[wapiti]

Write notes and take photos. 

 

I'm finding that having photos, including some with the student guide in it, as we toured the campus jogs my memory of where we heard & saw what. It was hard to take notes while walking & talking.

 

Great ideas, thanks!

[yvonne]

As someone whose homeschool has relied extensively on Teaching Company lectures, the idea of large lectures where students just listen would not be a big deal to me, even for humanities courses.

 

 

 

We've listened to many TC lectures, as well, and learned a lot from them. And I didn't even have to pay college tuition rates for them!

 

I guess I also saw the limitations of recorded lectures like that, where the listener is relatively passive & limited to his/her own thoughts about the material. We would not have gotten nearly as much out of the TC lectures if we hadn't been listening, pausing the lectures and talking about it together, as it was going on. It wouldn't have been the same to jot down aha moments or questions or thoughts and then, at some later date/time, get together and talk about it after the fact.

 

Either way seems to work... large lectures + smaller sections or small classes. It's personal preference. For my children (and for the tuition money we'll be spending), I'd rather see them at a college/university with smaller class size, where all classes are taught by professors rather than other students/TAs. I had assumed all state universities would be like UCB or UCSD with large lectures for hundreds of students and student-led sections for discussion, so I appreciate 8's posting that this is not the case everywhere.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by yvonne

[SeaConquest]

I can only speak from my personal experience. I volunteer at UCSD Hospital, and most of the volunteers I work with are students. Most of them have told me that they feel like they are teaching themselves because of the large class sizes. Remember, these are young kids, still learning to navigate the world. Many of them are not the autodidacts that we are.

 

My anatomy course over the summer had a lecture and lab. The lab was taught by a grad student and two undergrad TAs. Their grasp of the material was very superficial, and I definitely felt like I had to teach myself an extremely difficult course. It does boil down to preference, but I'll take a small class size with a full professor any day over these enormous lecture classes with grad students teaching the labs/seminars. For me, the experience is night and day.

[mirabillis]

We are in an exploration stage - locations, sizes, etc.  UCLA will count for the large university category.  Will do the official tour at SCU - I just noticed last night that it is on a quarter system and I don't have familiarity with that.

 

I'm thinking we should write some actual notes after each college visit, lest we forget stuff.

 

 

ooh, post your notes and thoughts!!! for those of not doing the California road trip of universities quite yet. Please!!!

[regentrude]

Will do the official tour at SCU - I just noticed last night that it is on a quarter system and I don't have familiarity with that.

 

Quarter system has advantages and disadvantages.

Advantage is that students get a chance to take more different classes.

 

Disadvantage is when professors teach the same amount of material in a  ten week quarter that would normally be taught in a  15-16 week semester which leads to an insane pace at breakneck speed.

Also, two quarters back to back with only one week of spring break is brutal. 

[8filltheheart]

To clarify, I am describing # of kids in a single section in a single lecture hall, not the # of kids taking a course across sections.

 

One parent described 700 students in her son's linear alg lecture. Another parent (different UC school) described 1000 students in an intro to CS section. Those numbers are large. They didn't go on to state anything about recitation sections, but I am sure they must have them.

 

The recitations don't change my thoughts on the matter. For kids who might struggle with feeling just like a numberless face, those numbers are large, triple to quadruple the largest lecture my kids have ever encountered. (One of mine did have a 250 student lecture for 1 class, but that was unusual, not the norm. Avg large lectures have been between 80-130 students and all of those still had small recitation classes. If student might feel overwhlemed in class of 150, in a class of 700-1000 those feelings will be amplified.)

Janet, to clarify more, the vast majority of my kid's classes have had under 30 students. The freshman intro classes that have been large are 101 classes like intro to psychology or physics. English classes have always been small, even as small as 12-15 kids.

[chiguirre]

It's not just UCs that do this sort of class. I had many large lecture sections at Penn in the 80s. We'd listen to the sage on the stage twice a week and then have small recitations. This was across many subjects, accounting (which is a crucial class in a business school), poli sci, econ (also a key course), calc and stat pop to mind. It worked fine and I thought this was standard operating procedure at all largish schools whether they're a state school or an Ivy.

[SanDiegoMom]

 

It would be nice to be able to ask questions in the moment without having to wait until later.  I don't know where the cutoff for that would be; >200 would seem too many for that.  500-1000 is hard for me to imagine.

 

Our latest to-do list includes a self-guided tour of UCLA, sigh...

 

 

Let me know if you have any questions about UCLA.  My oldest just started there last week. She is a Poli Sci/ Econ major, so classes might be different than some of the more popular STEM majors, and of course since it's the quarter system she has a grand total of three classes right now. Two of those are lecture classes that each have a discussion later in the week led by a TA.

[dereksurfs]

Likewise, I have no experience whatsoever with a large university. I attended a liberal arts college and never had a class larger than 25. I can't imagine attending purely one-way lectures in a literature or history class with 100 or more other students. 

 

Even in a large, 100+ student lecture, isn't there some student-teacher interaction? 

 

Yvonne,

 

Have you considered some of the smaller, less impacted UCs. We're looking at UCSC which has half the size of the larger UCs. In addition, the school is broken up into colleges based upon one's major. Another one is UC Merced which apparently has been awarded significant amounts of funding for research. Granted these may not have the prestige of larger, impacted schools, but they are none the less good options for some. I've heard some describe UC Merced as public U that feels like a private U due to the smaller class sizes and close interaction students have with their professors. In addition, the opportunities for undergrads to participate in research can be greater.

Edited November 27, 2017 by dereksurfs

[yvonne]

Yvonne,

 

Have you considered some of the smaller, less impacted UCs. We're looking at UCSC which has half the size of the larger UCs. In addition, the school is broken up into colleges based upon one's major. Another one is UC Merced which apparently has been awarded significant amounts of funding for research. Granted these may not have the prestige of larger, impacted schools, but they are none the less good options for some. I've heard some describe UC Merced as public U that feels like a private U due to the smaller class sizes and close interaction students have with their professors. In addition, the opportunities for undergrads to participate in research is can be greater.

 

UC's aren't high on our boys' lists, or on mine, I have to admit. We visited UCSD this past week. My sons have a friend and a cousin there and my brother got his BA there years ago. It seemed ok. They'll probably apply as a safety, but the SLAC's we've seen have been much more attractive to us.

 

Another friend mentioned UC Merced to me this week. I'd be interested in visiting it, but that's not going to happen before Jan 1.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, Derek! 

[dereksurfs]

UC's aren't high on our boys' lists, or on mine, I have to admit. We visited UCSD this past week. My sons have a friend and a cousin there and my brother got his BA there years ago. It seemed ok. They'll probably apply as a safety, but the SLAC's we've seen have been much more attractive to us.

 

Another friend mentioned UC Merced to me this week. I'd be interested in visiting it, but that's not going to happen before Jan 1.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, Derek! 

 

Yvonne, just out of curiosity which SLACs have you and your kids visited that you've liked so far?

[RootAnn]

Back in the early 90s, the large, non-selective state university (UG enrollment ~ 19,000) that I got my degree from, we had large (100-200 student) science lectures taught by the professor and small (15-20 kids) recitation sections taught by TAs. Almost 100% of the time, I preferred the TAs because 1) most of them spoke English without an accent (vs. foreign professors who were hard to understand) and 2) they could explain things SO MUCH BETTER than the professor did during the lecture. Perhaps they remembered how they had struggled with certain things, so they could see what I was missing and fill in the gaps.

 

Just another perspective.

 

I only took two math classes (Statistics for Engineers & Matrix Theory (now called "Linear Algebra") there & both classes only had small (15-20 students) lecture sessions. I only took one pseudo English class ("Speech Communications" - now called "Technical Communications") and it had 10-15 kids in it. My Art History classes had only large lecture sections (80-100 kids). All of the rest of my classes, as far as I can remember, were small (20ish kids). That was for a Mechanical Engineering degree.