On "taking a knee"

[bibiche]

A piece by Eric Reid on why he and Colin Kaepernick decided to take a knee:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/25/opinion/colin-kaepernick-football-protests.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region&region=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0

 

I hope people take the time to read it and think about this issue. 

[bettyandbob]

I understand the reasons behind the protest and have thought a lot about it.

 

I don't think we can discuss it here. Maybe I will be surprised.

[Pawz4me]

Wow. What a powerful piece. Good for him. I wish him the best of luck.

[MercyA]

Go, Eric Reid. :thumbup1: He has my total support in this protest.

 

Thanks for sharing this, bibiche.

[bibiche]

I thought it would be beneficial if we could read what someone involved has to say about the motivation behind it. It appears that a lot of people misunderstand what taking a knee is about.

Edited September 25, 2017 by bibiche

[Elizabeth86]

I understand the reasons behind the protest and have thought a lot about it.

 

I don't think we can discuss it here. Maybe I will be surprised.

I would imagine not. I think it could get ugly.

 

Im just not sure how the national anthem represpects police. In my mind that disrespects our veterans and active duty military. I guess Im just not understanding?

[regentrude]

I am not sure why they play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game, and the play the anthems of the participants' countries. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

Edited September 25, 2017 by regentrude

[Carrie12345]

I am not sure why they play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game, and the play the anthems of the participants' countries. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

 

Please don't give anyone any ideas!  :lol:

[Pawz4me]

I am not sure why we play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

 

I've always thought it was rather fascist. My father, who was a WWII vet who served in Europe and saw fascism up close and personal, may have had something to do with instilling that belief in me. 

[Leav97]

I would imagine not. I think it could get ugly.

 

Im just not sure how the national anthem represpects police. In my mind that disrespects our veterans and active duty military. I guess Im just not understanding?

 

How does using your right to protest disrespect veterans\active duty military.  They are serving to guarantee you those rights.  Why would using that right be disrespectful?

[Laurie4b]

Yes, taking a knee is historically and culturally a gesture of respect and humility. Construing that particular gesture as disrespectful in and of itself is odd. [ETA: I mean I find it confusing.}

 

I understand that some people are deeply offended at anyone doing less than standing with a hand over the heart. Yet there are several Christian groups, typically with Anabaptist roots, that do not follow traditions like that. Their reasoning is that they owe that kind of allegiance only to God. Here is one website explaining that: http://www.emu.edu/president/flag-anthem/  .

 

So the issue isn't explicitly that someone is not standing at attention with hand over heart. 

 

When I said the pledge of allegiance to the flag as a child (I stopped as a teen for Mennonite like reasons) we said this line: " with liberty and justice for all."  

 

Colin Kapernick and others who  kneel are saying, "We are not living up to our ideals of "liberty and justice for all." I want to hold the light of her ideals up as something for my country to pursue. We need to do better. "

 

Something I do have a harder time understanding is people who believe that Kapernick and others are somehow disrespecting the sacrifices that our military makes. My nephew is in South Korea. I am concerned for his life. But it seems that the freedom we fight for is the freedom to have our Constitutional rights, which includes freedom of speech and freedom to petition for grievances. We may not agree with the particular speech or grievance, but what makes our country great is allowing the disagreements. This is peaceful first amendment speech. So that is puzzling to me. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Laurie4b

[regentrude]

How does using your right to protest disrespect veterans\active duty military.  They are serving to guarantee you those rights.  Why would using that right be disrespectful?

 

This.

 

If they fight for the country, they fight for the constitution and the civil rights granted therein. How is exercising the constitutional rights "disrespectful" to anybody?

Also, the anthem does not stand for the armed forces or law enforcement. It stands for the entire country.

[maize]

Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

They do play the national anthem before movies in US military installation theaters.

 

And in movie theaters in India--by law.

[regentrude]

They do play the national anthem before movies in US military installation theaters.

 

And in movie theaters in India--by law.

 

and that cheapens and devalues it. 

[Scarlett]

I am not sure why they play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game, and the play the anthems of the participants' countries. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

No kidding. Imagine being politically neutral and having nationalistic songs played at events where attendees are expected to participate.

[bettyandbob]

How does using your right to protest disrespect veterans\active duty military. They are serving to guarantee you those rights. Why would using that right be disrespectful?

I've always thought this.

[Carrie12345]

I hate to make light of any of it, but let's be real. It's all they have to fight against the fight against racism without coming right out and saying "We like racism."

[Pawz4me]

Yes, taking a knee is historically and culturally a gesture of respect and humility. Construing that particular gesture as disrespectful in and of itself is odd. 

 

I understand that some people are deeply offended at anyone doing less than standing with a hand over the heart. Yet there are several Christian groups, typically with Anabaptist roots, that do not follow traditions like that. Their reasoning is that they owe that kind of allegiance only to God. Here is one website explaining that: http://www.emu.edu/president/flag-anthem/  .

 

So the issue isn't explicitly that someone is not standing at attention with hand over heart. 

 

When I said the pledge of allegiance to the flag as a child (I stopped as a teen for Mennonite like reasons) we said this line: " with liberty and justice for all."  

 

Colin Kapernick and others who  kneel are saying, "We are not living up to our ideals of "liberty and justice for all." I want to hold the light of her ideals up as something for my country to pursue. We need to do better. 

 

Something I do have a harder time understanding is people who believe that Kapernick and others are somehow disrespecting the sacrifices that our military makes. My nephew is in South Korea. I am concerned for his life. But it seems that the freedom we fight for is the freedom to have our Constitutional rights, which includes freedom of speech and freedom to petition for grievances. We may not agree with the particular speech or grievance, but what makes our country great is allowing the disagreements. This is peaceful first amendment speech. So that is puzzling to me. 

 

Very well said.

 

I especially agree with the bolded. One either supports the First Amendment or not. If we as individuals and as a nation support the First Amendment only when we agree with what's being said (or done) it becomes totally meaningless and irrelevant.

[Laurie4b]

 

Im just not sure how the national anthem represpects police. In my mind that disrespects our veterans and active duty military. I guess Im just not understanding?

 

The anthem does not represent police. It represents a country with First Amendment rights to equal treatment under the law. Our pledge says "with liberty and justice for all." The protest is saying, "Fellow Americans: Look. It's truly not liberty and justice for all." 

 

Elizabeth, maybe you can help me understand your point of view that taking a knee during the anthem disrespects our military and veterans. I have two questions about it: 

 

1) I thought standing during our anthem with a hand over the heart showed patriotism for our country, not respect for our military. Can you connect those dots for me? I know our soldiers fight for our country, but they are not the only ones whose lives are on the line or who make sacrifices. 

 

2) Why does someone exercising a first amendment right to peaceful speech disrespect anyone or our country? From my pov, peaceful disagreement is what our country is all about. 

 

I am genuinely interested in the answers. People I know IRL who are against the protest do not appear to be interested in respectful dialogue that might increase understanding. 

[Corraleno]

I would imagine not. I think it could get ugly.

 

Im just not sure how the national anthem represpects police. In my mind that disrespects our veterans and active duty military. I guess Im just not understanding?

 

The flag is a symbol of freedom, equality, and American values. Those who are protesting want this country to live up to those values, and apply them to everyone. There are many current and former military saying that the first amendment and the right to peacefully protest are exactly what that are fighting for. The attempt to reframe this protest as "players dissing our brave soldiers" is a total fabrication. Some of the unarmed POC who have been killed by cops were themselves veterans. 

 

I am not sure why they play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game, and the play the anthems of the participants' countries. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

 

 

Players weren't even required to be on the field during the anthem until 2009. The US military pays millions of dollars to the NFL to promote the military in various ways, and requiring the players to be present on the field and standing at attention during the anthem was part of that. Yesterday 3 teams decided to just stay in the locker room during the anthem and avoid the whole thing. I wouldn't be surprised if the NLF owners collectively agreed to just keep all the teams in the locker room from now on, to avoid the whole issue. There are people on both sides of the issue boycotting the NFL right now, so they need to either pick a side and only alienate half of the them, or just remove themselves from the whole thing.

[maize]

and that cheapens and devalues it.

I don't know about India because I don't have personal experience there, but I am going to disagree with you on the anthem being played in military installation theaters or at sports games.

 

It is tradition and communal bonding. Humans in general thrive on having some degree of tradition in our lives. Being used as part of community tradition does not cheapen an anthem.

 

In fact I would argue that community building is the purpose of an anthem.

 

I have happily sung anthems of countries where I was not a citizen and even then felt an increased sense of community.

 

Can anthems be mis-used? Sure. I don't see any particular danger though from welcoming them into stadiums and theaters.

[maize]

Taking a knee during the anthem does not feel disrespectful to me, I perceive it as a form of protest, yes, but quite a respectful form. Freedom to protest is something I value.

 

If the protest were in the form of, say, a vulgar gesture during the anthem I would feel differently.

[Guest]

If you keep it nonpartisan...remembering that these protests have spanned more than one administration...the discussion can continue.

 

Oh, and civil. Non-snarky. Non-accusatory. And all those good things.

 

SWB

[ktgrok]

I would imagine not. I think it could get ugly.

 

Im just not sure how the national anthem represpects police. In my mind that disrespects our veterans and active duty military. I guess Im just not understanding?

First, did you read the article? Kneeling is a posture of respect, not disrespect. They kneel when a fellow player is injured, to show solidarity. They kneel when a coach or other authority figure is speaking. They kneel like that to pray in the locker room or on the field. It is NOT a statement of disrespect. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I like singing the anthem at ball games.

Actually, that is my favorite thing about ball games.  I'm not much of a sports fan.

What I hate is when a performer does it and no one sings along.  Then I feel conspicuous if I do it myself, but cheated if I don't.

[Pawz4me]

I don't know about India because I don't have personal experience there, but I am going to disagree with you on the anthem being played in military installation theaters or at sports games.

 

It is tradition and communal bonding. Humans in general thrive on having some degree of tradition in our lives. Being used as part of community tradition does not cheapen an anthem.

 

In fact I would argue that community building is the purpose of an anthem.

 

I have happily sung anthems of countries where I was not a citizen and even then felt an increased sense of community.

 

Can anthems be mis-used? Sure. I don't see any particular danger though from welcoming them into stadiums and theaters.

 

 

It's a huge turn off for me.

 

Not that I'm not patriotic -- I am. But my patriotism is the eyes-wide-open kind rather than the starry eyed kind, and comes with a hefty dose of wariness of fascism. (See my post above about having a father who served in WWII.)

[MEmama]

I've always thought it was rather fascist. My father, who was a WWII vet who served in Europe and saw fascism up close and personal, may have had something to do with instilling that belief in me.

My mother, who grew up in Germany during WW2, instilled the same in me.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

I just think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves while they're working - just like any other profession. My friend who is a doctor, my brothers in retail and sales, my DH who is a Police Officer, my friend who's a butcher - none of them are allowed to share personal opinions not related to their jobs with the public they encounter. As part of "the public" I don't want others pushing their views on me on their company's time - wether I agree with it or not.

 

Besides, it seems like the NFL has a double standard. They claim to support free expression among the players but they banned Bible references in eye paint, penalized a Muslim player for praying, and the Dallas players weren't allowed to wear stickers on their helmets in support of the five killed police officers last year. At the very least they should be consistent - free expression of opinions and beliefs for all or for none. I prefer none. They're paid to entertain by playing football. They should stick with that and save their free speech for their own time - like all other employees have to do.

[Bluegoat]

I don't really get claiming its disrespectful to veterans.  That just doesn't seem obvious to me.  Maybe I can see why people might think it was meant to be disrespectful in some way to the country, or the government, or the national anthem itself.  As a gesture it seems a little ambiguous.

 

I guess my thought generally is that if you want to make a symbolic gesture, it's better if it's one that will be clearly understood or interpreted.  Maybe people won't agree, but they'll know what you mean, even the dull-minded ones.  The more you have to explain what you mean, the less useful it is - it's no longer so much a symbol as a verbal statement, and some people may never hear what you say and will be mixed up.

 

Once people are mixed up, it seems a lot harder to make your point.

 

In this case - I kind of have the impression that there are some people who are mixed up.  And I don't feel like there is a really strong, clear, link between his action and the cause he wanted to highlight, so I don't know that it made the ideal symbolic gesture.  At a certain point, if you have to keep explaining, maybe it would be better just to make some sort of well-crafted statement, or write a book.

 

Probably though he thought it would be totally clear and make sense to people.  Anyway, I don't think you can be disrespectful to anything without intent or indifference, and neither of those seem to be the case at all.  

[Guinevere]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

 

I understand why they are doing it, and what they say they are representing. I agree we have issues as a country, big issues. I wish they would pick something else. I'm just giving a different perspective as one of those who have a visceral reaction to the kneeling.

[Bluegoat]

FWIW in Canada we play the national anthem at sports games, and have as long as I can remember.

[regentrude]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died.

 

So how do you react the the flag being on napkins, T-shirts, swim shorts? Is wiping one's mouth or covering one's naked butt with the flag OK?

[Guinevere]

So how do you react the the flag being on napkins, T-shirts, swim shorts? Is wiping one's mouth or covering one's naked butt with the flag OK?

Absolutely not. Highly inappropriate to me. I will not buy, wear, or use such products.

[Laurie4b]

I just think they should keep their personal opinions to themselves while they're working - just like any other profession. My friend who is a doctor, my brothers in retail and sales, my DH who is a Police Officer, my friend who's a butcher - none of them are allowed to share personal opinions not related to their jobs with the public they encounter. As part of "the public" I don't want others pushing their views on me on their company's time - wether I agree with it or not.

 

Besides, it seems like the NFL has a double standard. They claim to support free expression among the players but they banned Bible references in eye paint, penalized a Muslim player for praying, and the Dallas players weren't allowed to wear stickers on their helmets in support of the five killed police officers last year. At the very least they should be consistent - free expression of opinions and beliefs for all or for none. I prefer none. They're paid to entertain by playing football. They should stick with that and save their free speech for their own time - like all other employees have to do.

 

In general, I agree with your perspective that it should be all or none. 

 

However, they have to this point been required to affirmatively do something which is to be present during the anthem and stand with hand over heart. That is actually symbolic speech. They should not be required to participate in speech with which they don't agree. Kapernick and others are saying they cannot in good conscience at this moment in time participate in that specific symbolic content. I think that's the difference between the knee and the other examples you cite (though I personally wouldn't have problems with them either.) 

 

I think rescinding the requirement that the teams be on the field during the anthem might  be a good solution. The players don't have to participate in speech they don't agree with and individual fans can do what they wish as they have always been able to do. 

[Sneezyone]

I am not sure why they play the National anthem before a football game or other sports event anyway. I get it if it's the Olympics or an international game, and the play the anthems of the participants' countries. But what does a sporting event have to do with America? That's inflationary and devalues the anthem. Why not play it at the movies or the ice cream parlour?

 

The military paid them to do it as a promotional/recruitment tool.

[Garga]

I don't really get claiming its disrespectful to veterans.  That just doesn't seem obvious to me.  Maybe I can see why people might think it was meant to be disrespectful in some way to the country, or the government, or the national anthem itself.  As a gesture it seems a little ambiguous.

 

I guess my thought generally is that if you want to make a symbolic gesture, it's better if it's one that will be clearly understood or interpreted.  Maybe people won't agree, but they'll know what you mean, even the dull-minded ones.  The more you have to explain what you mean, the less useful it is - it's no longer so much a symbol as a verbal statement, and some people may never hear what you say and will be mixed up.

 

Once people are mixed up, it seems a lot harder to make your point.

 

In this case - I kind of have the impression that there are some people who are mixed up.  And I don't feel like there is a really strong, clear, link between his action and the cause he wanted to highlight, so I don't know that it made the ideal symbolic gesture.  At a certain point, if you have to keep explaining, maybe it would be better just to make some sort of well-crafted statement, or write a book.

 

Probably though he thought it would be totally clear and make sense to people.  Anyway, I don't think you can be disrespectful to anything without intent or indifference, and neither of those seem to be the case at all.  

 

 

This is the impression I get.  I think a lot of people are confused about what's even going on. 

 

And then, when does it stop?  Do they take a knee for the next 50 years?  100 years?  I've heard estimates that our racial issues won't really be grappled with for at east another 100 years.  That's the minimum amount of time that generations can change enough to start to have an impact.

 

I think the kneelers painted themselves into a corner. There's no way to stop the kneeling if they plan on kneeling until the problem is solved. But I'm thinking they wanted to kneel to shine a light on the problem.  At what point do they say, "Ok, we've shone light on the problem and we'll stand now"?  If they could go back in time, they probably should have said that for the first three games of the season (or something along those lines), they would kneel in honor of those who were wrongfully persecuted by police or something.

 

Then again, why choose to kneel during the national anthem?  I guess because there's no other moment during the game where they can pause and kneel unless all of the NFL was on board and decided to pause the action for the kneeling.  Maybe they could have kneeled for a moment of silence at the end of the games instead.

 

ETA:  To answer my own question about why during the anthem, upon reflection it sounds like it's because they don't feel America is living up to the line of being a land of the free and home of the brave.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Garga

[Laurie4b]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

 

I understand why they are doing it, and what they say they are representing. I agree we have issues as a country, big issues. I wish they would pick something else. I'm just giving a different perspective as one of those who have a visceral reaction to the kneeling.

 

Thanks for sharing that Guinevere. 

 

So it's primarily a visceral reaction for you based on what was instilled during childhood? You are the first person I've seen who was both deeply offended by the players' kneeling and could express a cognitive understanding of why the players do it. 

 

I have a really hard time getting from kneeling to spitting on the grave of the dead. Maybe the visceral reaction is too deep for words to express but if you could, I would genuinely like to understand how those two dots are connected. 

[Elizabeth86]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

 

I understand why they are doing it, and what they say they are representing. I agree we have issues as a country, big issues. I wish they would pick something else. I'm just giving a different perspective as one of those who have a visceral reaction to the kneeling.

Yes this!

[EmseB]

I thought it was a fine gesture until Kaepernick came out wearing socks with pigs dressed as cops on them. Then all of it seemed rather disrespectful and attention seeking.

 

I don't even watch football, though, I just saw that bit in the news.

[Sneezyone]

Is there some kind of assumption that the kneelers aren't also entitled to feel some kind of way about the country, flag, anthem and various other patriotic symbols? Do you suppose they don't also have family members who fought, died and worked to make the country what it is? Is there only one way to be an American, uphold its values and/or seek redress of grievances toward America? The impression I get is that there is never an appropriate time, place and manner to address the issues these athletes are publicizing. I'm really interested in hearing what alternative ideas folks have. If peaceful assembly and silent gestures and wearing tee shirts is too much for folks to take, what's left but silence?

Edited September 25, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Laurie4b]

I don't really get claiming its disrespectful to veterans.  That just doesn't seem obvious to me.  Maybe I can see why people might think it was meant to be disrespectful in some way to the country, or the government, or the national anthem itself.  As a gesture it seems a little ambiguous.

 

I guess my thought generally is that if you want to make a symbolic gesture, it's better if it's one that will be clearly understood or interpreted.  Maybe people won't agree, but they'll know what you mean, even the dull-minded ones.  The more you have to explain what you mean, the less useful it is - it's no longer so much a symbol as a verbal statement, and some people may never hear what you say and will be mixed up.

 

Once people are mixed up, it seems a lot harder to make your point.

 

In this case - I kind of have the impression that there are some people who are mixed up.  And I don't feel like there is a really strong, clear, link between his action and the cause he wanted to highlight, so I don't know that it made the ideal symbolic gesture.  At a certain point, if you have to keep explaining, maybe it would be better just to make some sort of well-crafted statement, or write a book.

 

Probably though he thought it would be totally clear and make sense to people.  Anyway, I don't think you can be disrespectful to anything without intent or indifference, and neither of those seem to be the case at all.  

 

Perhaps. It's hard to do something symbolic  that no one is going to misinterpret. None of us agree on the meaning of art, literature, or Bible verses either.  Symbol is open to interpretation by its very nature. 

 

In this case on the other side of things, some of us have been surprised that what we thought was symbolic respect to country (to stand during the anthem) was construed by others as respect for the military, for instance. 

 

 And if there are some in whose interests it is financially or whatever to gin up  misunderstanding and then see it amplified all over social media, then the person doing the gesture is not wholly responsible. 

[Elizabeth86]

Is there some kind of assumption that the kneelers aren't also entitled to feel some kind of way about the country, flag, anthem and various other patriotic symbols? Do you suppose they don't also have family members who fought, died and worked to make the country what it is? Is there only one way to be an American, uphold it's values and/or seek redress of grievances toward America? The impression I get is that there is never an appropriate time, place and manner to address the issues these athletes are publicizing. I'm really interested in hearing what alternative ideas folks have.

Sure theyvcan feel how they want, I bet they wouldnt be acting like that if they had served their country.

 

edited by moderator

inflammatory

[Carol in Cal.]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

 

I understand why they are doing it, and what they say they are representing. I agree we have issues as a country, big issues. I wish they would pick something else. I'm just giving a different perspective as one of those who have a visceral reaction to the kneeling.

I feel the same way.

 

I defend their right to do it, but I think it is disgusting.

 

It reminds me of how I felt when I heard that Vietnam protestors would burn the American flag at funerals of veterans, or that those fake Baptists would scream obscenities at funerals of people who espouse gay rights.  It's not as extreme as either of those, but it's kind of on my repugnance continuum.  It's taking advantage of privilege to take a very cheap shot.  And it's counterproductive.

 

The cause itself is righteous, in this case, unlike the others.  But the means seems like really foolish virtue signalling to me.  And it's hypocritical that those who defend it the hardest would jump all over free expression if it were more conservative.  Having said that, I defend *the right* to protest.  I think it's valid expression.  But I also think it's valid expression for me to say that I don't like this one and that I don't think it is productive.

[Jane in NC]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

 

I understand why they are doing it, and what they say they are representing. I agree we have issues as a country, big issues. I wish they would pick something else. I'm just giving a different perspective as one of those who have a visceral reaction to the kneeling.

My father was a WWII veteran which is why I had a visceral reaction to Nazi flags being waved in Charlottesville. But I am not having trouble with athletes "taking a knee".

[Guinevere]

Thanks for sharing that Guinevere.

 

So it's primarily a visceral reaction for you based on what was instilled during childhood? You are the first person I've seen who was both deeply offended by the players' kneeling and could express a cognitive understanding of why the players do it.

 

I have a really hard time getting from kneeling to spitting on the grave of the dead. Maybe the visceral reaction is too deep for words to express but if you could, I would genuinely like to understand how those two dots are connected.

I don't (and won't) say they can't/shouldn't do it, for the record.

 

I need to think to put words to why I feel so strongly. I'll try to answer later.

[Guest]

Read the piece. And while I respect his right to do it, generally, I also have the option of tuning out. its obnoxious and changes nothing but the bottom line of their own paychecks. It won't save lives. It won't change minds.

 

Go protest somewhere other than the sport or concert or album I'm paying for, or I'm not paying for it anymore. There are more the a handful of artists I won't buy anymore who couldn't manage to keep political opinions to a simmer instead of a roar in their products. I'm no big fan of football, but between that and the ridiculousness with the NFL's advertising, rules, and more than a handful of players, themselves, I won't watch even the Super Bowl anymore.

 

It's getting beyond ridiculous and is making more fans mad than sympathetic, from what I can see. It was a good piece and I think meant genuinely. But the protesting is just getting over the top I don't think the president's comments helped that either, but this isn't a new annoyance.

[Sneezyone]

Sure theyvcan feel how they want, but I will still think they are pieces of shit. I bet they wouldnt be acting like that if they had served their country.

 

My husband *IS* serving the country and he feels as they do, that these are serious issues that deserve public attention and debate.

[Pawz4me]

My WW2 veteran grandfathers instilled a different view of the anthem and flag. I can't hear the anthem, or see the flag, without a lump in my throat for the men who died. When I see people kneel to protest, it is the same to me as if they had spit on the grave of those good men.

 

I understand why they are doing it, and what they say they are representing. I agree we have issues as a country, big issues. I wish they would pick something else. I'm just giving a different perspective as one of those who have a visceral reaction to the kneeling.

 

Like Laurie, I also appreciate your sharing your POV and would be interested in how you connect the dots.

 

My father would have said protecting the right to kneel in protest (or to protest in any way) was exactly why he was in WWII. Interesting to have such different view points instilled in us by members of the greatest generation, isn't it?

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

So it's primarily a visceral reaction for you based on what was instilled during childhood? You are the first person I've seen who was both deeply offended by the players' kneeling and could express a cognitive understanding of why the players do it. 

 

I think you are selling people too short here.

[Carol in Cal.]

Is there some kind of assumption that the kneelers aren't also entitled to feel some kind of way about the country, flag, anthem and various other patriotic symbols? Do you suppose they don't also have family members who fought, died and worked to make the country what it is? Is there only one way to be an American, uphold its values and/or seek redress of grievances toward America? The impression I get is that there is never an appropriate time, place and manner to address the issues these athletes are publicizing. I'm really interested in hearing what alternative ideas folks have. If peaceful assembly and silent gestures and wearing tee shirts is too much for folks to take, what's left but silence?

I can take it, but I don't care for it.

 

I think that the best way to address these valid and righteous issues is to work on them, proactively, being part of the solution, personally and corporately.  Speaking up.  Sharing.  Volunteering.  Donating.  Serving.  Praying.  Loving.

 

That doesn't mean that I think these are the only ways, just that I think they are likely to be the most productive.