Middle-school student manhandled for opting out of the Pledge

[MercyA]

"A Michigan teacher has been placed on leave and is under investigation for allegedly assaulting a middle school student who refused to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. Sixth-grader Stone Chaney had just started his first week at East Middle School in Farmington Hills, Michigan, when he said a homeroom teacher tried to force him to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. "The teacher consultant comes up behind me and snatches me out of my chair violently," he added, using his father to demonstrate the alleged assault. "I was so confused, I didn't know what was going on."

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michigan-teacher-allegedly-assaulted-student-who-protested-pledge-n801736

 

What is wrong with people? Do they have no concept of personal rights?

 

This is timely for me because my daughter was recently told to put her hand over her heart for the pledge at a church activity. She said simply, "I don't do that" and told me the teacher was nice about it. (And BTW, I think asking people to say the Pledge *in church*, of all places, is all kinds of wrong.) 

 

I had her watch the video in the link above, and she was outraged on the boy's behalf. (She did say, however, that she doesn't think he should pledge allegiance to his family because "they might ask him to do something wrong."  That's my little critical thinker.  :thumbup1: )

Edited September 25, 2017 by MercyA

[MEmama]

:(

 

I just can't. I have so much to say but I'd better not.

 

Every American should be appalled. That is all.

 

:(

 

Eta: good for your girl!

Edited September 25, 2017 by MEmama

[Dmmetler]

I have to wonder-am I the only teacher in the world who ever had JW students or others who have religious objections to pledging to an authority other than their deity? I averaged at least one kid in my homework every year who would opt out of the pledge for religious reasons (and after we studied the National Anthem in my music class, usually a few of my 5th graders would opt out of standing for the anthem for at least a few weeks).

 

If you have kids the right age, "Nothing But the Truth" may be a good literature study about now...

[MEmama]

I have to wonder-am I the only teacher in the world who ever had JW students or others who have religious objections to pledging to an authority other than their deity? I averaged at least one kid in my homework every year who would opt out of the pledge for religious reasons (and after we studied the National Anthem in my music class, usually a few of my 5th graders would opt out of standing for the anthem for at least a few weeks).

 

If you have kids the right age, "Nothing But the Truth" may be a good literature study about now...

I'd have to think it's pretty common. I stopped reciting the pledge in the third grade, and my son refused to sing Oh Canada when he was in kindergarten. I'm guessing we'll see lots of kids kneeling during the US national anthem at an upcoming international meet.

 

My mother was raised in Germany during WW2. Not pledging an allegiance to *anything* was instilled in me from a very young age.

[Hilltopmom]

As a teacher, I refused to recite the pledge (not for religious, but for moral/ political reasons) & got flack for it.

 

I cannot imagine strong arming a student over it! Geez.

[Spryte]

My DH was almost suspended, way back when he was in school, for not standing for the pledge. His parents fought hard for him, and they won. He was the groundbreaker in their area. That was a long time ago.

 

I can't imagine anyone acting the way that teacher did. :(

[Starr]

Dh had to go wait in the hall in middle school when he refused to say the pledge. He said his teacher wasn't very fond of him. Lol. I don't remember saying it in class once I hit Jr High, so long ago.

[Pawz4me]

If the story is true it's appalling on many levels. The lack of civics education most get in this country being one of them. Too many people seem to have no true understanding of basic rights. Or maybe they do but they don't have tolerance. IDK. Whatever, it's depressing. 

[Janeway]

I think unless there are actual religious reasons, a child should say the pledge during the school day. If the child has religious objections, the parents should have to give him permission so that there are not just a bunch of kids not doing it for fun.

[Hilltopmom]

Sorry, making kids say the pledge, any pledge, be it scouts or 4H or the national one is just way too creepy & reeks of facism to me.

 

Seeing kids in uniform like scouting or at school all reciting the pledge together is just too much like Hitler youth to me.

Just, no.

 

I'm not religious, why does it need to be a religious issue? I'm against it for moral & political reasons.why aren't my reasons just as valid as someone's religious reasons?

[Pawz4me]

I think unless there are actual religious reasons, a child should say the pledge during the school day. If the child has religious objections, the parents should have to give him permission so that there are not just a bunch of kids not doing it for fun.

 

What you (or I or anyone else) thinks is irrelevant.

 

The Supreme Court ruled long ago (in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette) that Americans cannot be forced or compelled to say the pledge or stand for the anthem or be forced to participant in any such supposedly patriotic act. 

[historically accurate]

Wowza. 

 

I actually don't think kids should ever say the pledge. Most (all?) grade schoolers don't even know what they are saying; they're just reciting words. Here, they only say it in elementary school; not at the older ages when the kids could actually make a reasoned decision. My kids said it at Awanas every week (along with 2 more pledges), and it bothered me then. Kids pledging their allegiance? It's just not a decision they should have to make - and in the way we do it here in the US, they're not given a choice, they just have to do it.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Dh had to go wait in the hall in middle school when he refused to say the pledge. He said his teacher wasn't very fond of him. Lol. I don't remember saying it in class once I hit Jr High, so long ago.

 

Same here.  We stopped saying it after 6th.

[Kalmia]

Apparently the teacher was unaware of West Virginia State Board of Education vs. Barnette. Landmark case. Is it not studied in the school law course teachers have to take?

 

I don't think anyone, even a kid, without strong convictions otherwise would refuse to pledge the flag just for fun or to be a pain, because the instant ingroup/outgroup tribal response is harsh and immediate. It may not be over the top like with this teacher or other people in the news lately, but the outliers in a group are often censured, even if it is just a raised eyebrow.

 

I mindlessly recited the pledge in elementary school (I was pretty sure the words "cucumber god" were in it in Kindergarten) and in middle school. Our private high school did not say the pledge at all. In high school, I heard it begin at the one and only sporting game I ever attended and refused to stand absolutely shocked that a) something so governmental (serious) would be said at a sporting event (entertainment) and b) that everyone robotically followed the leader even though I was 100% sure the friends I was with were only saying it because it was expected and not something they truly believed. I was immediately yelled at by my own friends, booed at by the other team, and pretty sure my team got a technical foul for my behavior. It was an amazing revelation. That because of such a minor, very personal act, everyone turned on me in an instant. It was only when I majored in anthropology that I came to a better understanding of ingroup/outgroup behavior and tribalism, and their actions became understandable in the context of culture and human nature.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Kalmia

[Tangerine]

I think unless there are actual religious reasons, a child should say the pledge during the school day.

Why do actual religious reasons trump actual personal conscience reasons? What is so sacrosanct about someone else telling you what you shouldn't do vs your conscience?

[Butter]

It's not even like the Supreme Court decision was recent.  It was decided in 1943.

[Guest]

It's not even like the Supreme Court decision was recent.  It was decided in 1943.

 

Some people are in a very 1942 frame of mind at present.

[Janeway]

What you (or I or anyone else) thinks is irrelevant.

 

The Supreme Court ruled long ago (in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette) that Americans cannot be forced or compelled to say the pledge or stand for the anthem or be forced to participant in any such supposedly patriotic act. 

Schools can't, but parents can. Parents should have the final say. Where I live, that is the official policy of all the schools. The parents have the right to exempt the kids, but the parents have to do that. The child cannot just simply decide it on a whim. Since this did not happen the first day of school, it comes off like he was standing every other day and then one day, just did not feel like it. 

 

There has to be some standard and consistency. My tax dollars should not be used to pay for a building where the day is a free for all of kids doing whatever they want and parents having no say in what the kids do. No wonder so many teachers are tired of school and burned out and leaving their careers. The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it. This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

[Janeway]

Why do actual religious reasons trump actual personal conscience reasons? What is so sacrosanct about someone else telling you what you shouldn't do vs your conscience?

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

[Guest]

This isn't new, even when I went to school we had a JW student who sat for the pledge. I don't recall him getting much drama about to.

 

The teacher should never, ever have touched the student. If they felt the need to ask any questions of the student at all, it should have been private and after class. No, you cannot coerce someone (even a football player) to say the pledge. Nor should you.

 

And no, no pledges in church. We have never, ever seen that in any church we have attended. Ever. Not even for Awanas. For political events, sure, but not church. Christianity is the uniting identity and christians span the globe in brotherhood with one another, irrespective of the nation they were born into.

 

My views on the football thing have more to do with making public statements than coercion on the pledge, before anyone asks.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

Do you think pledging allegiance to a flag is the same as giving thanks to a deity?

 

"Giving a little respect and thanks TO - what - you are - about to receive - and - have been receiving - is not too much to ask."

 

This is not parse'able. What do you mean?

[Ravin]

Schools can't, but parents can. Parents should have the final say. Where I live, that is the official policy of all the schools. The parents have the right to exempt the kids, but the parents have to do that. The child cannot just simply decide it on a whim. Since this did not happen the first day of school, it comes off like he was standing every other day and then one day, just did not feel like it. 

 

There has to be some standard and consistency. My tax dollars should not be used to pay for a building where the day is a free for all of kids doing whatever they want and parents having no say in what the kids do. No wonder so many teachers are tired of school and burned out and leaving their careers. The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it. This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

 

The free speech and religious rights in the school setting settled in law belong to the students, not just to their parents.

[Dmmetler]

Where I've seen it is when kids, especially tweens and teens, come to the decision to stop after reading/learning something in history. For me, it came most often when we studied patriotic music, including the history and background of each piece and all lyrics. Some would decide that the National Anthem wasn't something they wanted to support. I've seen it happen in response to history, too-especially when kids learn about Nazi Germany. (And especially if the school uses the book or after school special "The Wave") and see the morning pledge or flag salute as a start of a slippery slope.

 

Some stick to it, some move on, but it's part of processing what they're learning and integrating it into their belief system.

[Tangerine]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

Lol. I'm a military wife. My husband supports my right. You know, the ones he served to protect. Sorry for taking up all those American resources though. Your posts crack me up. So nuanced.

[Ravin]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

 

The SCOTUS disagrees with you. All children in the U.S. have the right to a free and appropriate public education, and have the right to their respective religions and freedom of speech (and to refrain from speech). Your personal sense of propriety does not supercede the rights of others.

[Joker]

That blows my mind that a teacher would be that clueless. 

 

Here, they say the pledge through high school. Ds, a senior, quit saying it a while ago but would stand. Yesterday, he and a large group of students decided to also take a knee during the pledge. Thankfully the teachers at our high school knew not to do anything. It will be interesting to see how this week progresses with that. 

 

If it matters, dh (and pretty much all males in our families) have or are serving in the military. Ds was born on a military base. Ds has a lot of respect for all those who serve but he also has very valid reason for refusing to say the pledge right now. We support his decision completely. 

[Guest]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

 

So, you reckon those kids get to decide if they are going to public school, or not? ["stay out of public schools"]

 

And also that their parents don't pay taxes?

 

And also that the pledge of ALLEGIANCE is a pledge of gratitude for the uses of a pool tax dollars that your parent may or may not have contributed to? ["thanks to what you are about to receive"]

 

 

Since you are conflating allegiance to country with gratitude for education, do you then submit also that a child that is not particularly grateful for her public school education doesn't deserve an education as a human bean?

 

Why do you think teenagers should respect something they are indoctrinated into doing, when clearly their peaceful opting out (remember, remaining seated hurts no one) results in some people evidently thinking they deserve both physical reprimanding and no education? IOW what do you think the relation is between giving respect and getting respect?

[happi duck]

I'm a former public school teacher.

 

It bugs me that teachers don't know that the pledge is not mandatory!!

 

Also, I think I read that this kid made his decision a while ago.

Eta: years ago... second grade

Edited September 26, 2017 by happi duck

[Guest]

Schools can't, but parents can. Parents should have the final say. Where I live, that is the official policy of all the schools. The parents have the right to exempt the kids, but the parents have to do that. The child cannot just simply decide it on a whim. Since this did not happen the first day of school, it comes off like he was standing every other day and then one day, just did not feel like it. 

 

There has to be some standard and consistency. My tax dollars should not be used to pay for a building where the day is a free for all of kids doing whatever they want and parents having no say in what the kids do. No wonder so many teachers are tired of school and burned out and leaving their careers. The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it. This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

 

iirc, you were wary of sending another of you own children to a school in which you had previously had a verbal altercation with the principal, is that correct?

 

But you are saying here that the child whose teacher laid hands on him and is wary of going back as a result has special snowflake syndrome.

 

Can you walk us through how you square those two things in your mind? Or perhaps I am thinking of another poster.

[historically accurate]

Schools can't, but parents can. Parents should have the final say. Where I live, that is the official policy of all the schools. The parents have the right to exempt the kids, but the parents have to do that. The child cannot just simply decide it on a whim. Since this did not happen the first day of school, it comes off like he was standing every other day and then one day, just did not feel like it. 

 

There has to be some standard and consistency. My tax dollars should not be used to pay for a building where the day is a free for all of kids doing whatever they want and parents having no say in what the kids do. No wonder so many teachers are tired of school and burned out and leaving their careers. The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it. This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

 

 

The bolded makes my jaw drop and my blood pressure raise. You are mocking a child who was manhandled by an adult in his classroom? 

[HomeAgain]

Because public school, paid for by American tax dollars, is optional. If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

 

This isn't about thanks.  No.  Don't even try that.  It's not about respect, either.

 

Where the flying fish does any adult get the authority to force a minor into an oath of allegiance?  It's not legally binding, for one.  And it's not something that adults wake up and do every day.  Why should MY child have to PROVE their allegiance to a country when they don't even have the ability to say no??

 

I'm a veteran, my husband's a veteran.  90% of my family, are veterans.  Don't you dare assume you have the right to force anyone to give up their rights in this country!  You don't.  Teachers don't. 

 

You know the kicker?  We only take oaths of allegiance every 4-6 years as we promise to defend the country.  We're not questioned on our loyalty daily.  The pledge wasn't even meant for that.  It was meant to be a one time thing.  Then someone decided to roll it into the school day.  Then the country got freaked by the cold war and added "under God" and basterdized the thing.

 

So you want children, who have no obligation to be loyal or even what that means in a daily life, to be suspect enough to make them prove that loyalty daily with a bastardized document that has strayed far from its original form...you want them to pretend and lie and pledge?

 

 

No.

 

YOU DON'T GET TO TAKE PEOPLE'S RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

[creekland]

No wonder so many teachers are tired of school and burned out and leaving their careers. 

 

:lol:  I have yet to hear any teacher say they're tired of school and burned out due to kids saying (or not saying) The Pledge.  I've heard from quite a few teachers who are annoyed that we still have to say it (in high school) at the school where I work. Their complaint?  It's a big waste of time and pretty darn meaningless.

 

Even though my school still requires the Pledge in the morning, we teachers KNOW we have no right to force any kid to stand or say it.  That should be common knowledge.

 

When it's come up before in my classes (I recall it once from a news story), I always told my classes that I (personally) consider it a sign of respect to at least stand in the same way I stand for the National Anthems of other countries and similar ("When in Rome..."), but of course, it's not required.

 

If I were in school now with this latest debacle, I'd be pretty proud of kids who took a knee or whatever instead - showing they know their rights and their rights trump "commands."

[happi duck]

We began homeschooling because my DD didn't feel safe at school. She wasn't even physically manhandled by an adult. I guess we're snowflakes!

#proudsnowflake

#winteriscoming

[Greta]

Since this did not happen the first day of school, it comes off like he was standing every other day and then one day, just did not feel like it.

It didn't happen on the first day of school because he had just moved to that school. He said that he won't pledge allegiance to a flag, because his allegiance belongs to God and his family. That doesn't sound like a whim to me, that sounds like a moral conviction.

 

As a child, I was taught by my parents not to say the pledge, and every single one of my teachers, regardless of how they personally felt about it, accepted that and did not give me any flack. That's what the law says they must do! This teacher was the one being disrespectful toward this country by trying to force his own personal will on a child in violation of the freedoms that child is guaranteed as a citizen of this nation. True patriotism would demand censure of the teacher, not the child.

[MEmama]

My aunt was forced to hail Hitler as a schoolgirl. My grandfather was forced to fight for a fascist regime he vehemently disagreed with. Many of the fathers and grandfathers of posters here fought against men like him, innocent in his crime of being born in the wrong country.

 

That any American doesn't understand what our freedoms are and how fragile they are truly astounds me.

 

I'm actually shaking at some of the comments.

[Χά�ων]

This isn't about thanks. No. Don't even try that. It's not about respect, either.

 

Where the flying fish does any adult get the authority to force a minor into an oath of allegiance? It's not legally binding, for one. And it's not something that adults wake up and do every day. Why should MY child have to PROVE their allegiance to a country when they don't even have the ability to say no??

 

I'm a veteran, my husband's a veteran. 90% of my family, are veterans. Don't you dare assume you have the right to force anyone to give up their rights in this country! You don't. Teachers don't.

 

You know the kicker? We only take oaths of allegiance every 4-6 years as we promise to defend the country. We're not questioned on our loyalty daily. The pledge wasn't even meant for that. It was meant to be a one time thing. Then someone decided to roll it into the school day. Then the country got freaked by the cold war and added "under God" and basterdized the thing.

 

So you want children, who have no obligation to be loyal or even what that means in a daily life, to be suspect enough to make them prove that loyalty daily with a bastardized document that has strayed far from its original form...you want them to pretend and lie and pledge?

 

 

No.

 

YOU DON'T GET TO TAKE PEOPLE'S RIGHTS IN THIS COUNTRY.

I have noticied a trend where only certain people believe they actually have unquestionable rights, and that Those Others should not because, reasons and those reasons are then used are an exuse to try and deny The Others their rights.

[HomeAgain]

I have noticied a trend where only certain people believe they actually have unquestionable rights, and that Those Others should not because, reasons and those reasons are then used are an exuse to try and deny The Others their rights.

 

Yes.  You have rights, but only if you exercise them in the exact way I think you should.

 

 

 

Did y'all know Texas has a pledge they try to force on the kids?  My son took one look at it and told his teacher "I can't say this.  I'm not a Texan."  Neither were most of the other kids in his class.  Or half of them in the city, because, well, military. 

[Tanaqui]

I think unless there are actual religious reasons, a child should say the pledge during the school day. If the child has religious objections, the parents should have to give him permission so that there are not just a bunch of kids not doing it for fun.

 

Children are American citizens. (Unless they're not. Whoo, that's a whole other kettle of fish. Compelling non-citizen children to say the Pledge could, in some situations, potentially get them in trouble in their home countries.) They have rights.

 

Where I live, that is the official policy of all the schools. The parents have the right to exempt the kids, but the parents have to do that.

 

Then your schools are in violation of the law. Where do you live? I'm gonna go write a little note to the ACLU and the FFRF on the behalf of kids in your district.

 

If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources

 

Not saying the Pledge has nothing to do with whether or not you "hate the US". (And even if you do hate the US, you have a right to do that. This country is founded on the Constitution - not the Pledge. The very first freedom in the Bill of Rights is Freedom of Speech.)

 

The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it.

 

The adults have made the rules. The rules - that is, the law of the land as determined by the US Constitution and affirmed by the Supreme Court - state that you cannot compel people, even children, to take loyalty oaths. Doing so is inherently unAmerican.

 

This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

 

His teacher assaulted him. Why wouldn't he be scared to go back? Seriously, where is your empathy?

 

[Tanaqui]

Yes.  You have rights, but only if you exercise them in the exact way I think you should.

 

And everybody has to follow the rules - unless by "everybody" you mean "authority figures" and by "the rules" you mean "the US Bill of Rights and/or federal law", in which case, lol, who cares?

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Tanaqui

[Corraleno]

There has to be some standard and consistency. My tax dollars should not be used to pay for a building where the day is a free for all of kids doing whatever they want and parents having no say in what the kids do. No wonder so many teachers are tired of school and burned out and leaving their careers. The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it. This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

 

That is one of the nastiest and most heartless posts I've ever read here. An 11 year old child was physically assaulted by one teacher and verbally berated by another for exercising his constitutional rights — and your response is to call him a whiny little snowflake.

 

Unbelievable. And especially ironic coming from someone whose own posts have a much higher than average percentage of "wah wah wah poor me."   :rolleyes:

[Tanaqui]

The pledge wasn't even meant for that. It was meant to be a one time thing. Then someone decided to roll it into the school day. Then the country got freaked by the cold war and added "under God" and bastardized the thing.

 

And Bellamy had specifically decided not to add any reference to God because he thought it would be divisive!

 

To be fair, though, it was bastardized when they changed it from "I pledge allegiance to my flag" because, after all, you can't have little foreign children secretly pledging to their own flags in their hearts. (I am dead serious.)

 

[goldberry]

The adults should make the rules and the kids should suck it up and abide by it. This boy came off like just another snow flake "I am so scared to go back." Oh wah!

 

An adult physically pulled this kid out of his chair to shame him.  Your comment is disgusting.  And if you think you're some kind of patriot you should go read your constitution and educate yourself.

Edited September 26, 2017 by goldberry

[bibiche]

That is one of the nastiest and most heartless posts I've ever read here. An 11 year old child was physically assaulted by one teacher and verbally berated by another for exercising his constitutional rights — and your response is to call him a whiny little snowflake.

 

Unbelievable. And especially ironic coming from someone whose own posts have a much higher than average percentage of "wah wah wah poor me."   :rolleyes:

An adult physically pulled this kid out of share to shame him.  Your comment is disgusting.  And if you think you're some kind of patriot you should go read your constitution and educate yourself.

Word.

[goldberry]

If you hate the US that much, stay out of the public schools and stop using up American resources. Spending 60 seconds giving a little respect and thanks to what you are about to receive and have been receiving is not too much to ask.

 

Also, just for the record, abstaining from the pledge of allegiance or from standing for the anthem is not equal to hating the U.S.

 

Most of the people who have made a conscience choice to do those things are usually far more educated and understanding of their significance that those who repeat it mindlessly or stand while eating their hot dog.  (Apparently hot dog is two words?  Who knew....)

[Guest]

I'm really more surprised a teacher in a wealthy, well educated suburb didn't know she shouldn't and couldn't do this. We almost moved to Farmington Hills but it was expensive and the job ultimately didn't pan out.

 

Even if the kid was doing this to imitate the football players on TV, she is an employee of the government in a government school and cannot compel him on this count (or many others relating to speech). It's entirely within his rights. That's a different bag than, say, employees of a private company and free speech. How this isn't in the second page of the handbook on teaching is beyond me, but I'm pretty darn sure NOT GRABBING A CHILD EXCEPT TO PREVENT IMMINENT PHYSICAL HARM TO HIM is on the first page. Sheeeesh.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[SKL]

When I was a young teen, I stopped saying the pledge because I felt like it was stupid to say it over and over every day.

 

We had JWs in our class so the teachers knew it was up to the students.  We did have to stand though.  I was fine standing and respecting everyone else's wish to say the pledge.  I'm not sure what would have happened if anyone had refused to stand.  Probably nothing.

[SKL]

I think there are still some jurisdictions where teachers are allowed to legally manhandle or paddle kids.  Not sure whether it was allowed in that boy's school or not.

[Guest]

I think there are still some jurisdictions where teachers are allowed to legally manhandle or paddle kids. Not sure whether it was allowed in that boy's school or not.

There are, but I believe it is opt in and only for specific outlined offenses. I even support judicious use of corporal punishment but it just plain wasn't warranted here, and I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't love my kids and have their best interests at heart to carry it out anyway.

 

I wish they'd just do away with that nonsense. Ugh.

[SKL]

There are, but I believe it is opt in and only for specific outlined offenses. I even support judicious use of corporal punishment but it just plain wasn't warranted here, and I wouldn't trust someone who doesn't love my kids and have their best interests at heart to carry it out anyway.

 

I wish they'd just do away with that nonsense. Ugh.

 

Yeah, I was in favor until my kid had an a$$hole first grade teacher.  Then I was glad the law didn't let her smack my kid.

 

But I'm not from a culture where spanking is the go-to discipline method.

[Tanaqui]

Just to clarify, you legally have the right to sit or stand quietly while other people say the Pledge. You do not necessarily have a right to be disruptive - certainly, you don't in a classroom! - but you can sit quietly.

 

You may also have the right to leave the room (don't quote me on that one), but you legally can not be compelled to leave or "come in late" during Pledge of Allegiance time.