Hernandez had severe CTE

[regentrude]

Is it worth risking the integrity of one's mind/brain to experience transcendence? 

 

If it turns the person into a wife beater and murderer? Absolutely not.

One's own freedom to experience transcendence ends where the liberties of others begin.

[Spy Car]

Sadly, no. Not once the risk is known.

 

The determining factor for me is the fact that people with injured brains have an unfortunate tendency to hurt--emotionally and/or physically--other people.

 

At that point it isn't just your own brain and quality of life you are putting at risk.

 

That's the decision I've reached as a parent myself.

 

But woe to anyone who tried traveling back in time to impose their will on my 16-year-old self. 

 

I'd have come unglued.

 

Bill

[creekland]

I can relate to this guy. If one has experienced (what's the word I'm searching for?) a transcendent passion that puts one into the zone of instinctual experience, "bliss", then who doesn't want that experience for their children?

 

Those moments are the greatest parts of being alive IMO.

 

One just needs to remember that what fueled our passion might not be the same thing that fuels our children's passion.

 

For me, that requires a little counter-programming against my own biases.

 

Bill

 

It did for us too.  Not with football, of course, but for those things that give us bliss (riding, sailing, our Alma mater, our professions, etc).  Fortunately, at least my kids inherited the dopamine rush we get from travel.  I don't know what we'd have done if one of them had disliked travel... It would have certainly made our trips different!

[Spy Car]

If it turns the person into a wife beater and murderer? Absolutely not.

One's own freedom to experience transcendence ends where the liberties of others begin.

 

I strongly suspect that brain injury was a contributing factor in Aaron's Hernandez's violence. He's not the first. And many have been driven to suicide. It is chilling for me. I know how many lifetime hits I took myself as a starting lineman.

 

In no way am I minimizing the evidence that keeps pouring in.

 

To be fair, football does draw in a lot of young men who have testosterone banging around in their systems who experience rage, aggression, and a propensity towards physical solutions to conflict resolution.

 

With young people predisposed towards such impulses, football offers a socially acceptable way to work off the aggression and the rage and it calms the beasts. Take that way and society might face much larger problems.

 

Bill

[regentrude]

To be fair, football does draw in a lot of young men who have testosterone banging around in their systems who experience rage, aggression, and a propensity towards physical solutions to conflict resolution.

 

With young people predisposed towards such impulses, football offers a socially acceptable way to work off the aggression and the rage and it calms the beasts. Take that way and society might face much larger problems.

 

And football also contributes to normalizing violence. There are studies that argue that a part of football players abusing their partners might be attributed not to brain injury, but to them being desensitized to violence.

 

And a league that has a bad track record for taking domestic assault seriously propagates the problems.

[Spy Car]

It did for us too.  Not with football, of course, but for those things that give us bliss (riding, sailing, our Alma mater, our professions, etc).  Fortunately, at least my kids inherited the dopamine rush we get from travel.  I don't know what we'd have done if one of them had disliked travel... It would have certainly made our trips different!

 

Sailing and horseback riding (I assume that's what you mean?) are activities when I also experienced "bliss."

 

Taking a thoroughbred over jumps cross-country, or just opening up in a gallop riding two-point is a thrill.

 

And sailing...be still my heart.

 

Bill

[guilfordlake]

 

 

I don't know that I will convince you, but there is something very special about the game of football for those who play and love the game. People find transcendent experiences in many ways: the musician who gets lost in the beauty of creation, the performer who feels the rush of being on stage. For those who love the game, playing football is a path to finding transcendence. Trust me :D

 

Is it worth risking the integrity of one's mind/brain to experience transcendence? 

 

Bill

 

I fear that I sometimes romanticize the way the players must feel about football but after reading your descriptions I don't think I'm too far off :D

[Spy Car]

And football also contributes to normalizing violence. There are studies that argue that a part of football players abusing their partners might be attributed not to brain injury, but to them being desensitized to violence.

 

And a league that has a bad track record for taking domestic assault seriously propagates the problems.

 

I doubt it.

 

I believe (based on personal experience alone) that playing football greatly reduces acts of violence in a population that is at high-risk. I don't think it's a close call.

 

Removing a positive outlet for aggression will, IMO, come with serious social consequences if there aren't alternatives to football.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I fear that I sometimes romanticize the way the players must feel about football but after reading your descriptions I don't think I'm too far off :D

 

And I'm trying to play it down :D

 

Bill

[regentrude]

I believe (based on personal experience alone) that playing football greatly reduces acts of violence in a population that is at high-risk. I don't think it's a close call.

Removing a positive outlet for aggression will, IMO, come with serious social consequences if there aren't alternatives to football.

 

So those players who beat their partners or rape women would be even more violent if they didn't have football as their "positive outlet"?

 

[8circles]

 

Removing a positive outlet for aggression will, IMO, come with serious social consequences if there aren't alternatives to football.

 

 

I'm not prepared for a debate on this topic, but it never occurred to me to consider tackle football "a positive outlet for aggression".

 

Interesting.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Since American football is played in a relatively small number of countries around the world, and those countries who do play it aren't noticeably less violent than other countries, the assertion that it lessens aggression isn't logical.  Not in a statistical sense. 

[lispy]

I've been hesitant to post in this thread for fear of being labeled a neglectful parent that doesn't care if her son ends up a brain damaged murderer. This subject is absolutely heart wrenching for me.

 

I have a 16 year old son who plays football. He did not play as a child. We have never been an athletic family and though he tried lots of other sports and activities when he was younger, nothing seemed to "stick".

 

He was always a rough and tumbley child, very high strung. As he entered his teen years, he began to have sort of an angry demeanor. He was depressed and we felt as though we were walking on egg shells around him. He was kind most of the time but if something set him off, it was bad for days. Therapy, meds, nor the countless activities we explored did anything to improve his spirits. He was frustrated with himself in his calmer moments. He felt bad for the way he lashed out at those he loved.

 

At 14, he was recruited to be on his school football team. He was (is) a big guy, so although he had no experience, coach felt like he could teach him I guess. Though I was afraid of football in general, I had never paid much attention specifically to the head injury studies. So he joined the team. He loved it. I can't even put into words the way he feels about it. It has changed his life (for good) over the last year and a half. He is a different person. It was like had found himself again.

 

Now, of course, I've read/heard/seen all the brain injury studies and it terrifies me. But at the same time, I think back and I just cannot take this away from him.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't or hasn't experienced it to understand.

 

He has no illusions of going pro, and will not even likely go/play in college, so my only hope is that the shorter term play will leave him in the lower percentage of chance of long term injury. I truly feel like if it was taken away from him at this point, the chances of long term repercussions would be greater.

 

(Please, please, no flames. It is hard to be the parent watching. I wish he'd never started. I just wanted to give a glimpse into the "why would anyone let their child do that?" question.)

[Spy Car]

So those players who beat their partners or rape women would be even more violent if they didn't have football as their "positive outlet"?

 

In not into debating tricks. People who rape, or murder, or beat women are committing horrible acts.

 

I would concede the point that some footballers may have brain injuries that impair their judgments, weaken their sense of self-control, and exacerbate their violent tendencies.

 

That said, I think the game of football (generally) helps build good character and give a positive outlet for impulses of young men that could be expressed in very negative ways were the opportunity eliminated.

 

Do you have any idea how disciplined one must be to survive football training? Coaches are not training "killers," they are shaping good character and honor (the good coaches anyway).

 

The short answer to your question is that I think we'll have more problems with troubled youth if programs like football are eliminated without something to take up the slack. I haven't the slightest doubt that's the case.

 

I believe a football experience deters violence, and that it is not the source of violence.

 

Bill

[guilfordlake]

I've been hesitant to post in this thread for fear of being labeled a neglectful parent that doesn't care if her son ends up a brain damaged murderer. This subject is absolutely heart wrenching for me.

 

I have a 16 year old son who plays football. He did not play as a child. We have never been an athletic family and though he tried lots of other sports and activities when he was younger, nothing seemed to "stick".

 

He was always a rough and tumbley child, very high strung. As he entered his teen years, he began to have sort of an angry demeanor. He was depressed and we felt as though we were walking on egg shells around him. He was kind most of the time but if something set him off, it was bad for days. Therapy, meds, nor the countless activities we explored did anything to improve his spirits. He was frustrated with himself in his calmer moments. He felt bad for the way he lashed out at those he loved.

 

At 14, he was recruited to be on his school football team. He was (is) a big guy, so although he had no experience, coach felt like he could teach him I guess. Though I was afraid of football in general, I had never paid much attention specifically to the head injury studies. So he joined the team. He loved it. I can't even put into words the way he feels about it. It has changed his life (for good) over the last year and a half. He is a different person. It was like had found himself again.

 

Now, of course, I've read/heard/seen all the brain injury studies and it terrifies me. But at the same time, I think back and I just cannot take this away from him.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't or hasn't experienced it to understand.

 

He has no illusions of going pro, and will not even likely go/play in college, so my only hope is that the shorter term play will leave him in the lower percentage of chance of long term injury. I truly feel like if it was taken away from him at this point, the chances of long term repercussions would be greater.

 

(Please, please, no flames. It is hard to be the parent watching. I wish he'd never started. I just wanted to give a glimpse into the "why would anyone let their child do that?" question.)

:grouphug:

[regentrude]

That said, I think the game of football (generally) helps build good character and give a positive outlet for impulses of young men that could be expressed in very negative ways were the opportunity eliminated.

 

Do you have any idea how disciplined one must be to survive football training? Coaches are not training "killers," they are shaping good character and honor (the good coaches anyway).

 

The short answer to your question is that I think we'll have more problems with troubled youth if programs like football are eliminated without something to take up the slack. I haven't the slightest doubt that's the case.

 

I believe a football experience deters violence, and that it is not the source of violence.

 

If that is the case, shouldn't there be a lower rate of violent behavior in countries that play football compared to countries that don't?

Football is pretty unique to the US. Somehow, elsewhere in the world societies manage to civilize young men without football.

So is the US young male particularly violent compared to other countries? If so, why?

Edited September 23, 2017 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

I've been hesitant to post in this thread for fear of being labeled a neglectful parent that doesn't care if her son ends up a brain damaged murderer. This subject is absolutely heart wrenching for me.

 

I have a 16 year old son who plays football. He did not play as a child. We have never been an athletic family and though he tried lots of other sports and activities when he was younger, nothing seemed to "stick".

 

He was always a rough and tumbley child, very high strung. As he entered his teen years, he began to have sort of an angry demeanor. He was depressed and we felt as though we were walking on egg shells around him. He was kind most of the time but if something set him off, it was bad for days. Therapy, meds, nor the countless activities we explored did anything to improve his spirits. He was frustrated with himself in his calmer moments. He felt bad for the way he lashed out at those he loved.

 

At 14, he was recruited to be on his school football team. He was (is) a big guy, so although he had no experience, coach felt like he could teach him I guess. Though I was afraid of football in general, I had never paid much attention specifically to the head injury studies. So he joined the team. He loved it. I can't even put into words the way he feels about it. It has changed his life (for good) over the last year and a half. He is a different person. It was like had found himself again.

 

Now, of course, I've read/heard/seen all the brain injury studies and it terrifies me. But at the same time, I think back and I just cannot take this away from him.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't or hasn't experienced it to understand.

 

He has no illusions of going pro, and will not even likely go/play in college, so my only hope is that the shorter term play will leave him in the lower percentage of chance of long term injury. I truly feel like if it was taken away from him at this point, the chances of long term repercussions would be greater.

 

(Please, please, no flames. It is hard to be the parent watching. I wish he'd never started. I just wanted to give a glimpse into the "why would anyone let their child do that?" question.)

You won't get any flames from me. The men/boys in my family have loved and benefitted greatly from the game. My dad even played both ways for a time. He's 76 and still mentally sound. The bottom line for me is that, while there is plenty of evidence that permanent, severe injuries can occur, to date they've primarily been identified in self-selected groups of former pro and college athletes after death. There's just no way to determine how prevalent it is (or is not) because CTE isn't diagnosed until death and ppl who live long, full lives aren't submitting brains for research. We know there are real risks but the extent of them just isn't known.

 

That said, none of the D1 football starters in my family have exhibited violence toward ANYONE, ever. The assumption that on and off field aggression in football go hand in hand just doesn't jive with what I have lived. Many of my friends in college were players st USC, my roomie dated a starting back, he is/was still sweet as can be. We had tons in our off campus house for the holidays. Domestic violence is common in lots of athletes, yes, across all sports, but the two are not synonymous.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Sneezyone

[Spy Car]

If that is the case, shouldn't there be a lower rate of violent behavior in countries that play football compared to countries that don't?

Football is pretty unique to the US. Somehow, elsewhere in the world societies manage to civilize young men without football.

So is the US young male particularly violent compared to other countries? If so, why?

 

If we wish to have a full discussion of violence, gun culture, and other factors that are uniquely American I'm not sure I could stay within board rules.

 

And have you seen how they play youth soccer in say...Brazil? It ain't AYSO.

 

In my personal (and long) experience with football, I can say with utter sincerity that the game that I think it diverted many at-risk players from making bad life choices and that the game gives players a way to work out their energies in a positive fashion.

 

I don't expect to convince you, but I have been there on the inside and have an intimate perspective on the game.

 

Bill

[creekland]

I've been hesitant to post in this thread for fear of being labeled a neglectful parent that doesn't care if her son ends up a brain damaged murderer. This subject is absolutely heart wrenching for me.

 

I have a 16 year old son who plays football. He did not play as a child. We have never been an athletic family and though he tried lots of other sports and activities when he was younger, nothing seemed to "stick".

 

He was always a rough and tumbley child, very high strung. As he entered his teen years, he began to have sort of an angry demeanor. He was depressed and we felt as though we were walking on egg shells around him. He was kind most of the time but if something set him off, it was bad for days. Therapy, meds, nor the countless activities we explored did anything to improve his spirits. He was frustrated with himself in his calmer moments. He felt bad for the way he lashed out at those he loved.

 

At 14, he was recruited to be on his school football team. He was (is) a big guy, so although he had no experience, coach felt like he could teach him I guess. Though I was afraid of football in general, I had never paid much attention specifically to the head injury studies. So he joined the team. He loved it. I can't even put into words the way he feels about it. It has changed his life (for good) over the last year and a half. He is a different person. It was like had found himself again.

 

Now, of course, I've read/heard/seen all the brain injury studies and it terrifies me. But at the same time, I think back and I just cannot take this away from him.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't or hasn't experienced it to understand.

 

He has no illusions of going pro, and will not even likely go/play in college, so my only hope is that the shorter term play will leave him in the lower percentage of chance of long term injury. I truly feel like if it was taken away from him at this point, the chances of long term repercussions would be greater.

 

(Please, please, no flames. It is hard to be the parent watching. I wish he'd never started. I just wanted to give a glimpse into the "why would anyone let their child do that?" question.)

 

You won't get any flames from here.  As parents we sometimes have to weigh our options knowing our specific circumstances and it sounds like you've done just that.  My guys sometimes do more dangerous things and I hold my breath rather than holding them back.  We live life.  If we die young, so be it.  I don't want to stay in a styrofoam protected house - and that likely isn't the answer anyway as lack of exercise also has it's problems.  it's not a free for all.  If they were to text and drive I'd get livid, but there are just some things (like climbing trees, scuba, riding, etc) that are worth the risk if one enjoys them.

 

I'm GLAD mine don't care for football, but for those where nothing else will do, I'll pray it all turns out ok.

[Spy Car]

I've been hesitant to post in this thread for fear of being labeled a neglectful parent that doesn't care if her son ends up a brain damaged murderer. This subject is absolutely heart wrenching for me.

 

I have a 16 year old son who plays football. He did not play as a child. We have never been an athletic family and though he tried lots of other sports and activities when he was younger, nothing seemed to "stick".

 

He was always a rough and tumbley child, very high strung. As he entered his teen years, he began to have sort of an angry demeanor. He was depressed and we felt as though we were walking on egg shells around him. He was kind most of the time but if something set him off, it was bad for days. Therapy, meds, nor the countless activities we explored did anything to improve his spirits. He was frustrated with himself in his calmer moments. He felt bad for the way he lashed out at those he loved.

 

At 14, he was recruited to be on his school football team. He was (is) a big guy, so although he had no experience, coach felt like he could teach him I guess. Though I was afraid of football in general, I had never paid much attention specifically to the head injury studies. So he joined the team. He loved it. I can't even put into words the way he feels about it. It has changed his life (for good) over the last year and a half. He is a different person. It was like had found himself again.

 

Now, of course, I've read/heard/seen all the brain injury studies and it terrifies me. But at the same time, I think back and I just cannot take this away from him.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't or hasn't experienced it to understand.

 

He has no illusions of going pro, and will not even likely go/play in college, so my only hope is that the shorter term play will leave him in the lower percentage of chance of long term injury. I truly feel like if it was taken away from him at this point, the chances of long term repercussions would be greater.

 

(Please, please, no flames. It is hard to be the parent watching. I wish he'd never started. I just wanted to give a glimpse into the "why would anyone let their child do that?" question.)

 

Trust me I know how it feels. 

 

:grouphug:

 

Bill

[creekland]

Sailing and horseback riding (I assume that's what you mean?) are activities when I also experienced "bliss."

 

Taking a thoroughbred over jumps cross-country, or just opening up in a gallop riding two-point is a thrill.

 

And sailing...be still my heart.

 

Bill

 

One of my favorite rides as a teen was being put on a "new to the stable" horse and told to take him out on the hunt course to see what he could do.  (I was a guinea pig rider, often used to check out new horses - talk about danger!)  He took a 7 stride line in 5 strides along with eating up the rest quite happily.  I just had to hang on and steer a little.  It wasn't until I returned that they told me, "Oh yeah, he just came off the steeplechasing track."  What a thrill!

 

Sometimes my older body longs for those teenaged days.  Now I happily play with my foals.

[Bluegoat]

I would be curious to know how much of the appeal to young boys has to do with the fact that the professional players earn such boat loads of money. How many kids play because they fantasize about going pro and becoming multimillionaires and famous?

 

There are other sports that can satisfy the physical need to go to your limits - but they don't tend to make you rich or famous.

(Not to mention that there are many professions that are also very dangerous, but nowhere near as luxuriously compensated.)

 

Hmm, I am sure the possibility of wealth is a draw to some.  I think the possibility of glory, even without wealth, can also be something kids are drawn to.

 

Professional sports are to a large degree an entertainment industry, and that s something that really seems to appeal to a lot of people these days.

[Spy Car]

You won't get any flames from here.  As parents we sometimes have to weigh our options knowing our specific circumstances and it sounds like you've done just that.  My guys sometimes do more dangerous things and I hold my breath rather than holding them back.  We live life.  If we die young, so be it.  I don't want to stay in a styrofoam protected house - and that likely isn't the answer anyway as lack of exercise also has it's problems.  it's not a free for all.  If they were to text and drive I'd get livid, but there are just some things (like climbing trees, scuba, riding, etc) that are worth the risk if one enjoys them.

 

I'm GLAD mine don't care for football, but for those where nothing else will do, I'll pray it all turns out ok.

 

You're making me reconsider how safe it was when I too big jumps on horseback at high speed.

 

Fortunately, there is always sailing, where nothing could possibly go wrong :D

 

Bill

[Caroline]

Is there a higher rate of domestic violence amongst football players? I don't know the answer to that. Or maybe amongst professional athletes?

 

My boys play soccer. Yes, there have been deceased professional soccer players diagnosed with CTE. Yes, my sixteen year old heads the ball a few times in every game. My oldest is a keeper, so he doesn't head the ball, but he could get kicked in the head or hit his head on the post. (His high school coach told him no save was ever worth a head injury.) My U12 player hasn't been allowed to head the ball for two years due to a rule change by US Soccer. (The rule change was the result of a lawsuit involving head injuries.) There is a limited number of headers they are allowed to do in practice, too.

 

I worry about their heads. But, I worry about them driving. I worry about them crossing the street on the way to school. I worry about them having a bike accident. All of those things could cause traumatic brain injuries. I chose to draw the line at football. That's not to say that I think lipsey did the wrong thing. In my 22 years of being a parent, I have learned that my way isn't perfect. I do know a lot of kids who play football because I teach public high school. They seem to be regular kids for the most part.

 

But I can't watch football anymore. I went to two high school games this year and couldn't watch. I'll go to one more to see the homecoming court. The last game I went to, a band member was taken off the field by ambulance.

[Spy Car]

One of my favorite rides as a teen was being put on a "new to the stable" horse and told to take him out on the hunt course to see what he could do.  (I was a guinea pig rider, often used to check out new horses - talk about danger!)  He took a 7 stride line in 5 strides along with eating up the rest quite happily.  I just had to hang on and steer a little.  It wasn't until I returned that they told me, "Oh yeah, he just came off the steeplechasing track."  What a thrill!

 

Sometimes my older body longs for those teenaged days.  Now I happily play with my foals.

 

First football tingles. Now riding tingles.

 

It has been so long since I've ridden. But I got to ride some of the best in these parts. And yes, what a thrill trying a "new" horse. We used to do the same with horses off the track. It was hard to predict how a thoroughbred only conditioned to the track would react to "nature." And a horse who leaps 6 feet sideways at a full gallop when its spooked by a shadow will give one a thrill.

 

I miss it.

 

Bill

[regentrude]

Is there a higher rate of domestic violence amongst football players? I don't know the answer to that. Or maybe amongst professional athletes?

 

The answer seems to be complicated. The rate of arrest is lower than the average for the general public, but higher if compared to men from similar socioeconomic strata. (And the rate of arrest, of course, is not the rate of incidents.)

[Sneezyone]

The answer seems to be complicated. The rate of arrest is lower than the average for the general public, but higher if compared to men from similar socioeconomic strata. (And the rate of arrest, of course, is not the rate of incidents.)

The socioeconomic level they achieve at the time of the incident or arrest or the one they were raised with? Formative experiences would presumably have more influence on behaviors in relationships than adult income.

[Caroline]

The socioeconomic level they achieve at the time of the incident or arrest or the one they were raised with? Formative experiences would presumably have more influence on behaviors in relationships than adult income.

I was wondering that, too.

[regentrude]

The socioeconomic level they achieve at the time of the incident or arrest or the one they were raised with? Formative experiences would presumably have more influence on behaviors in relationships than adult income.

 

what I find by quick googling did not specify. 

[bzymom]

Nt

Edited September 23, 2017 by bzymom

[maize]

That's the decision I've reached as a parent myself.

 

But woe to anyone who tried traveling back in time to impose their will on my 16-year-old self.

 

I'd have come unglued.

 

Bill

It's a real conundrum isn't it? I wouldn't want to take it away either from any kid that it meant the world to.

 

I'd like to think that your 16 year old self could have experienced something similar from an equally physical group activity with safer parameters, had that been the option available to you and football never been introduced.

 

I think this is what you are hoping for your son.

 

 

Physicality

Acting as part of a group whole

An opponent/obstacle to conquer

 

 

I think these are the main components of a positive sport experience.

[maize]

I've been hesitant to post in this thread for fear of being labeled a neglectful parent that doesn't care if her son ends up a brain damaged murderer. This subject is absolutely heart wrenching for me.

 

I have a 16 year old son who plays football. He did not play as a child. We have never been an athletic family and though he tried lots of other sports and activities when he was younger, nothing seemed to "stick".

 

He was always a rough and tumbley child, very high strung. As he entered his teen years, he began to have sort of an angry demeanor. He was depressed and we felt as though we were walking on egg shells around him. He was kind most of the time but if something set him off, it was bad for days. Therapy, meds, nor the countless activities we explored did anything to improve his spirits. He was frustrated with himself in his calmer moments. He felt bad for the way he lashed out at those he loved.

 

At 14, he was recruited to be on his school football team. He was (is) a big guy, so although he had no experience, coach felt like he could teach him I guess. Though I was afraid of football in general, I had never paid much attention specifically to the head injury studies. So he joined the team. He loved it. I can't even put into words the way he feels about it. It has changed his life (for good) over the last year and a half. He is a different person. It was like had found himself again.

 

Now, of course, I've read/heard/seen all the brain injury studies and it terrifies me. But at the same time, I think back and I just cannot take this away from him.

I don't expect anyone who doesn't or hasn't experienced it to understand.

 

He has no illusions of going pro, and will not even likely go/play in college, so my only hope is that the shorter term play will leave him in the lower percentage of chance of long term injury. I truly feel like if it was taken away from him at this point, the chances of long term repercussions would be greater.

 

(Please, please, no flames. It is hard to be the parent watching. I wish he'd never started. I just wanted to give a glimpse into the "why would anyone let their child do that?" question.)

 

 

I have a kid who has had a similarly life changing experience with an activity they are involved in. I get it.

 

I think if this were my kid I would have to be grateful for the positives and hope for the best. As best I can tell the long term risk to high school athletes is not as great as if they continue into college/professional leagues.

 

I really think football has a lot of positives. I don't see the game really going away, what I personally hope is that some changes can be made to both the rules and the protective gear (surprisingly little research has gone into helmets in the past) so that the best aspects can be kept and the worst minimized.

[maize]

 

 

To be fair, football does draw in a lot of young men who have testosterone banging around in their systems who experience rage, aggression, and a propensity towards physical solutions to conflict resolution.

 

With young people predisposed towards such impulses, football offers a socially acceptable way to work off the aggression and the rage and it calms the beasts. Take that way and society might face much larger problems.

 

Bill

 

This is a bunny trail, but I've been reading about research on testosterone (this book if you are interested) and apparently its reputation as an instigator of aggression is no supported by science. It seems to act more as a pro-social motivator in the sense that higher testosterone levels lead to increases in activities that promote socials status.

 

So if status is dependent on being aggressive, then testosterone leads to greater aggression. If it is generosity that is socially rewarded, higher levels of testosterone correlate with greater generosity.

 

Aggression in youth has many factors, but testosterone is supposedly not a valid scape goat.

[Cindy in FL.]

I certainly can't condone riding guinea pigs! 😜

 

One of my favorite rides as a teen was being put on a "new to the stable" horse and told to take him out on the hunt course to see what he could do. (I was a guinea pig rider, often used to check out new horses - talk about danger!) He took a 7 stride line in 5 strides along with eating up the rest quite happily. I just had to hang on and steer a little. It wasn't until I returned that they told me, "Oh yeah, he just came off the steeplechasing track." What a thrill!

 

Sometimes my older body longs for those teenaged days. Now I happily play with my foals.

[Spy Car]

This is a bunny trail, but I've been reading about research on testosterone (this book if you are interested) and apparently its reputation as an instigator of aggression is no supported by science. It seems to act more as a pro-social motivator in the sense that higher testosterone levels lead to increases in activities that promote socials status.

 

So if status is dependent on being aggressive, then testosterone leads to greater aggression. If it is generosity that is socially rewarded, higher levels of testosterone correlate with greater generosity.

 

Aggression in youth has many factors, but testosterone is supposedly not a valid scape goat.

 

But this presupposes that football isn't an activity that promotes social status (as it clearly does) or that it isn't a sport that rewards generosity (it does). The whole ethos of the game requires players to subsume their own personal interests for the good of the team. Squads that fail to do this lose games badly.

 

It is a complex activity. Personally, I think too much attention is given to the "violent" aspects of the game. That focus generally comes from critics of the sport and not those who played (who'd be more like to focus on camaraderie and the heightened mental state they felt while playing the game).

 

I've seen girl's get into the same sort of heighten mental state playing football, so I agree that it isn't all testosterone linked.

 

Bill

[maize]

But this presupposes that football isn't an activity that promotes social status (as it clearly does) or that it isn't a sport that rewards generosity (it does). The whole ethos of the game requires players to subsume their own personal interests for the good of the team. Squads that fail to do this lose games badly.

 

It is a complex activity. Personally, I think too much attention is given to the "violent" aspects of the game. That focus generally comes from critics of the sport and not those who played (who'd be more like to focus on camaraderie and the heightened mental state they felt while playing the game).

 

I've seen girl's get into the same sort of heighten mental state playing football, so I agree that it isn't all testosterone linked.

 

Bill

 

My comment didn't presuppose anything about football because it wasn't about football--it was about testosterone (hence the bunny trail designation). The comment I quoted ("...a lot of young men who have testosterone banging around in their systems who experience rage, aggression, and a propensity towards physical solutions to conflict resolution") credits testosterone with inclinations towards rage and aggression--a ubiquitous cultural assumption that according to reading I have done recently is not scientifically validated.

 

Which I find interesting.

 

Now back to football.

[ktgrok]

But this presupposes that football isn't an activity that promotes social status (as it clearly does) or that it isn't a sport that rewards generosity (it does). The whole ethos of the game requires players to subsume their own personal interests for the good of the team. Squads that fail to do this lose games

 

Bill

I think that is why I like football so much more than baseball.

[Spy Car]

It's a real conundrum isn't it? I wouldn't want to take it away either from any kid that it meant the world to.

 

I'd like to think that your 16 year old self could have experienced something similar from an equally physical group activity with safer parameters, had that been the option available to you and football never been introduced.

 

I think this is what you are hoping for your son.

 

 

Physicality

Acting as part of a group whole

An opponent/obstacle to conquer

 

 

I think these are the main components of a positive sport experience.

 

It may seem difficult to believe, but my 16-year-old self was a very hard person to reason with :D

 

Bill

[maize]

It may seem difficult to believe, but my 16-year-old self was a very hard person to reason with :D

 

Bill

:snort:

[Sneezyone]

Sorry. I've been watching my Trojans kick some tired Berkeley butt, still, Bill was a stubborn youth? Shocking!

[JudoMom]

It's a real conundrum isn't it? I wouldn't want to take it away either from any kid that it meant the world to.

 

I'd like to think that your 16 year old self could have experienced something similar from an equally physical group activity with safer parameters, had that been the option available to you and football never been introduced.

 

I think this is what you are hoping for your son.

 

 

Physicality

Acting as part of a group whole

An opponent/obstacle to conquer

 

 

I think these are the main components of a positive sport experience.

My ds17 plays football.

 

We've had concussions in Judo and broken bones in gymnastics, but so far, nothing in football.

 

He's always been a physical kid, yet Judo wasn't something he really enjoyed (and he was on track to get his black as soon as he was old enough) and tumbling/trampoline gymnastics he liked, but he dreamt of football.

 

He not only loves playing (the physical part) he loves the logic of the plays. He spends his free time analyzing film.

 

There is no way I could take it away from him. He's not destined to be a college player, so it has a natural end.

[Spy Car]

Sorry. I've been watching my Trojans kick some tired Berkeley butt, still, Bill was a stubborn youth? Shocking!

 

What's shocking is my Cal Bears losing to the durn Trojans :D

 

Bill

[Sneezyone]

What's shocking is my Cal Bears losing to the durn Trojans :D

 

Bill

That's not shocking at all, it's tradition! Best weekenders EVAH!

[Spy Car]

That's not shocking at all, it's tradition! Best weekenders EVAH!

 

At Cal, we're more interested in earning Noble Prizes than in playing the sort of brutal brain-damaging games that seem to be the fixation over in Troy :D

 

Bill (who's good as long as we beat Stanford)

[Meriwether]

I don't typically watch sports, but I like college football. Why? I only watched a bit today because we were busy, but Penn State's final drive was amazing. And some of the individual plays of the game were, too. That leap!

My boys won't be playing football. Ds13 is barely 80 pounds even though he is almost as tall as I am. Ds11 would like to play, and he'd probably be good at it, but I don't want him playing. Safety is only one of the reasons. I'm not going to judge the families that play football. My kids do TKD. They've all taken head shots, and two of them in particular have delivered a fair number of kicks to the head. We've seen a sparring match result in a broken rib and known competitors to sit out a season because of a bad concussion.

[2squared]

Is lacrosse a thing where you are?

 

Lacrosse isn't a "no-risk" sport in terms of concussions (or other injuries), but you don't have the perpetual sub-concussive helmet-to-helmet contacts that are inevitable in football.

 

While not a direct replacement for football, lacrosse is a very fun and fast-moving game that has enough contact to make it attractive for boys who like to get physical. Personally, lacrosse filled the space left by football for my son (who is rather like his dad in enjoying contact sports). I'd say most of the boys on the lacrosse teams I've coached came to the game for the same reasons. They are families who would have been in football in past decades who are just saying no.

 

One great aspect of lacrosse is it can accommodate athletes of many body types. One need not be a "brute," and some of the best players are small fast guys.

 

Baseball...you know. 

 

Bill

 

As a wrestling family, I would say wrestling has many of the same positives as football and lacrosse.  They say, "once a wrestler, always a wrestler", and I can definitely see the sport makes a life-long impact on those who participate.  It's clearly a sport that involves risk of injury.

 

For kids who need aggression outlets, lots of sensory input, and/or discipline, wrestling accomplishes all of it.  And, it's an individual and team sport so you get the best of both worlds.