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Hernandez had severe CTE


Scarlett
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It's a rough sport, no doubt. And the more I learn about the long-term injuries sustained because of it, the more I'm glad my son,

who's built like a linebacker, has not interest in it. However, I don't see the sport going away any time soon - it's not that far removed 

from the Roman Gladiators and that was centuries ago - and here we still are! 

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Punishing, contact sports are not appropriate at the ages most kids begin. Indications are that hockey, football, heading soccer balls, etc. before 12-14 years of age does a serious number on developing brains. Both my dad and brother played football in high school and in Division 1, my Dad played pro for a little while, and neither has CTE. I attribute that to starting much later than the norm tho and not experiencing multiple concussions.

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"Among 202 deceased former football players (median age at death, 66 years ...), CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players ...  including 0 of 2 pre–high school, 3 of 14 high school (21%), 48 of 53 college (91%), 9 of 14 semiprofessional (64%), 7 of 8 Canadian Football League (88%), and 110 of 111 National Football League (99%) players." ~JAMA

 

See https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fD5tkpVwqlkJ:https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/2017/07/25/the-cte-study-that-could-kill-football/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

Serious stuff. No way would I let my child play.

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I don't think that a lot of the safety equipment is really serving these guys.

 

You slap a big helmet on your head, and all of a sudden you treat it like a battering ram.  There is a reason rugby players, for example, use a different method to tackle than football players do.

 

Some equipment still makes sense - a mask for a goalie for example - but people need to think carefully about whether reducing impacts through gear will generally have the effect they intend.  Lots of people play more casual games of football or hockey without equipment and that used to be how most games were played - they are not bashing each others heads in - it isn't intrinsic to the sport or a fun or exciting game.  

 

 

Edited by Bluegoat
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I don't think that a lot of the safety equipment is really serving these guys.

 

You slap a big helmet on your head, and all of a sudden you treat it like a battering ram.  There is a reason rugby players, for example, use a different method to tackle than football players do.

 

Some equipment still makes sense - a mask for a goalie for example - but people need to think carefully about whether reducing impacts through gear will generally have the effect they intend.  Lots of people play more casual games of football or hockey without equipment and that used to be how most games were played - they are not bashing each others heads in - it isn't intrinsic to the sport or a fun or exciting game.  

 

The reason rugby players use a different tackling method is that if a tackler puts his head into another player's mid-section (the optimal method in football) the player being tackled can legally crash his knee up into the face and nose of the tackler with great violence, and that hurts a good deal.

 

So ruggers keep their heads to the outside (back) of the person they are tackling.

 

Bill (who played both sports)

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The reason rugby players use a different tackling method is that if a tackler puts his head into another player's mid-section (the optimal method in football) the player being tackled can legally crash his knee up into the face and nose of the tackler with great violence, and that hurts a good deal.

 

So ruggers keep their heads to the outside (back) of the person they are tackling.

 

Bill (who played both sports)

 

These things kind of go together I think.  You have a sport with no helmets, the game develops in one way.  You add helmets to another game, and it develops in another direction.  

 

There have been some experiments done in the last few years (as in scientific ones, not just coaching experiments) with teaching football tackling without helmets on, to see if that changes play in the game, and more to the point, affects injuries.  As I understand it they have had some good outcomes.

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These things kind of go together I think.  You have a sport with no helmets, the game develops in one way.  You add helmets to another game, and it develops in another direction.  

 

There have been some experiments done in the last few years (as in scientific ones, not just coaching experiments) with teaching football tackling without helmets on, to see if that changes play in the game, and more to the point, affects injuries.  As I understand it they have had some good outcomes.

 

True, but it's complex. In my time playing rugby I saw plenty of nasty injuries. Broken collarbones were as common as mud and when head-ons occurred, it was quite bad. I never got "hurt" playing rugby, but the aftermath of every game made me feel like I'd been on the losing side of a very brutal street fight. Great game :D

 

The worst head injuries I ever witnessed (in ten years playing football) was in my final semester of High School when we footballers could no longer take "offseason football" in the Spring (since we were done), so we were put into a Soccer PE class.

 

I will grant you that American football players understanding of how to play futball in my day left much to be desired, but I was there when two of my best friends (both beasts) both decided they were going for a header and came together with such violent force that the sound and image still makes me shudder.

 

I loved playing both rugby and football. Passionately. Sometimes I wonder what my brain will look like under post-mortal examination.

 

As a parent (and a coach) I've tried to steer my own kid away from football. I got him into Lacrosse at 8, which isn't risk-free for concussions (but lack the repetitive head-knocks of football), became a youth Lacrosse coach who puts head-safety was the number one goal on my teams, and one who has been a very vocal proponent of rule changes and rule enforcement at our league level around head injuries.

 

In Lacrosse there is the example of a sport developing two ways. Boy's game (helmets, padded gloves, and body armor) vs the Girl's game (goggles only, aside from the goalie).

 

There is much to be admired in the skill-game of Girl's Lacrosse. Next year, however, they are bringing in helmets (lighter than Boy's but still protective) due to injuries. This while I personally would like to see the Boy's game move away from big-hits.

 

It is complicated.

 

For High School, it looks like my son will be attending my alma mater and this old footballer is glad that his boy will be playing Water Polo in the Fall instead of football. My decision.

 

Bill

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"Among 202 deceased former football players (median age at death, 66 years ...), CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177 players ...  including 0 of 2 pre–high school, 3 of 14 high school (21%), 48 of 53 college (91%), 9 of 14 semiprofessional (64%), 7 of 8 Canadian Football League (88%), and 110 of 111 National Football League (99%) players." ~JAMA

 

See https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fD5tkpVwqlkJ:https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/2017/07/25/the-cte-study-that-could-kill-football/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

Serious stuff. No way would I let my child play.

 

Ditto

 

I honestly wonder why anyone is attracted to it with so many different sports and activities available.  Tradition I suppose.  For many, that apparently counts more than their future.

 

I've wondered what the attraction to smoking is too now that we (collective) know what it does to a person.  For both I feel for those who are older and didn't know, but now that we do... I just don't get it.

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Ditto

 

I honestly wonder why anyone is attracted to it with so many different sports and activities available.  Tradition I suppose.  For many, that apparently counts more than their future.

 

I've wondered what the attraction to smoking is too now that we (collective) know what it does to a person.  For both I feel for those who are older and didn't know, but now that we do... I just don't get it.

 

I can tell you why. There are few sports or other activities that give boys and young men the same opportunity to feel like warriors who can pit themselves against their enemies in a sort of combat that builds esprit de corps, develops physical confidence, mental toughness, sense of sacrifice and competition, and vitality the way that football does. At least without the much riskier option of going to war.

 

Football helps build the positive qualities that men tend to think makes us men. Having coached a women's football team for two years in High School, I know very well that these virile virtues are not limited to one sex or gender, and have seen first-hand how the game can bring out awesome qualities in women.

 

The old quip about the battle of Waterloo being won on the playing fields of Eton carries a lot of truth.

 

I'm as concerned as anyone about brain injury. Hense my parental decisions. But I don't think anyone should underestimate what's going to be lost in football's demise.

 

Bill

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It's also a huge business and has been a financial boon for my family. Both my dad and brother had their educations fully funded because of football. A good family friend of ours has a son starting as a CB at Washington for the second year in a row. His education is fully-funded too.

Edited by Sneezyone
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I think there is a certain part of the population that thinks "it can't happen to me" type of thinking. This to me is why anything still happens. From the person who drives home buzzed, to the adrenaline filled person climbing a steep rock to the parent putting their child in football. "It can't happen to me because I know better then that guy! He was the idiot, not me."

 

We need people like that in society, it is good for all of us. So I am not sure what the answer is. But I think that is fueling this. 

 

ETA Not saying we should have buzzed drivers around. Just that way of thinking. Somethings are illegal for a reason!

Edited by 3 ladybugs
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I'm as concerned as anyone about brain injury. Hense my parental decisions. But I don't think anyone should underestimate what's going to be lost in football's demise.

 

Bill

 

I don't think anything will be lost if they switch to something else - unless perhaps that something else is video games.  There are plenty of options in sports or other activities.  I've been in the military and seen plenty of "men" come from all sorts of backgrounds.  Esprit de Corps can be built practically anywhere.

 

If there weren't health issues with football, it's a fine option for those who like it (as are X games, soccer - the world's football, hockey, robotics, hiking, running, fencing, and almost anything else one can do with fellow friends).  But as you've said before, there are significant health issues, so as with taking Mercury for your health... some things really ought to change given information.  Kudos to you for finding lacrosse and water polo for your offspring. Given good team members, they will still have an awesome time and have stories to tell their kids.

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I don't think anything will be lost if they switch to something else - unless perhaps that something else is video games.  There are plenty of options in sports or other activities.  I've been in the military and seen plenty of "men" come from all sorts of backgrounds.  Esprit de Corps can be built practically anywhere.

 

If there weren't health issues with football, it's a fine option for those who like it (as are X games, soccer - the world's football, hockey, robotics, hiking, running, fencing, and almost anything else one can do with fellow friends).  But as you've said before, there are significant health issues, so as with taking Mercury for your health... some things really ought to change given information.  Kudos to you for finding lacrosse and water polo for your offspring. Given good team members, they will still have an awesome time and have stories to tell their kids.

 

I'm glad to have found substitutes like lacrosse and (more recently) water polo for my son. Good games both and ones that provide some of the same benefits with a lowered risk of brain injury.

 

But it's not the same. It just isn't. There are reasons those who play football are passionate about their experiences playing the game. It sounds easy (if not somewhat patronizing) to say someone who has not played football competitively can't get what the game does for shaping young people. So I will simply say that I see huge upsides in participation in this game. I think critics of football often underestimate the positives of this sport, which I believe are huge.

 

In part because I valued my own experience in football so much and truly believe it has much to offer towards positive character development (in a way that's unique among sports) I think it speaks volumes that I steered my kid in a different direction.

 

The data on brain injury keeps stacking up and it is scary as hell. That doesn't mean I'm not saddened or that I don't feel the loss of what good about football. I think we are losing something very valuable here. But the risks of brain damage are too high for this parent whose own playing days are treasured beyond my abilities to express how much they meant to me. 

 

Bill

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Dh has had five concussions in his life.  3 from playing high school football, 1 from diving team and 1 outside of sports.  Our kids have no interest in football.

 

It seems to be dying out around here.  Lacrosse, soccer, and rugby seem to be more popular.  A lot of the rec teams are having trouble getting enough players, which leads to them combining age groups, which leads to more chance of injury if you have a 4th grader playing with a 7th grader.

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I'm glad to have found substitutes like lacrosse and (more recently) water polo for my son. Good games both and ones that provide some of the same benefits with a lowered risk of brain injury.

 

But it's not the same. It just isn't. There are reasons those who play football are passionate about their experiences playing the game. It sounds easy (if not somewhat patronizing) to say someone who has not played football competitively can't get what the game does for shaping young people. So I will simply say that I see huge upsides in participation in this game. I think critics of football often underestimate the positives of this sport, which I believe are huge.

 

In part because I valued my own experience in football so much and truly believe it has much to offer towards positive character development (in a way that's unique among sports) I think it speaks volumes that I steered my kid in a different direction.

 

The data on brain injury keeps stacking up and it is scary as hell. That doesn't mean I'm not saddened or that I don't feel the loss of what good about football. I think we are losing something very valuable here. But the risks of brain damage are too high for this parent whose own playing days are treasured beyond my abilities to express how much they meant to me.

 

Bill

My son does not play either and he will not unless or until he expresses a sincere desire to play and has reached age 14. It's a HUGE part of our family story tho and I do feel the loss of that tradition. We love the game.

 

It is important to remember, however, that ppl who do not have CTE-like symptoms and issues are not the ones submitting their brains for study.

Edited by Sneezyone
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But it's not the same. It just isn't. There are reasons those who play football are passionate about their experiences playing the game. It sounds easy (if not somewhat patronizing) to say someone who has not played football competitively can't get what the game does for shaping young people. So I will simply say that I see huge upsides in participation in this game. I think critics of football often underestimate the positives of this sport, which I believe are huge.

 

Bill

FWIW, people with all sorts of passions could have written this just substituting a different word than football.  ;)  The vast majority who are passionate about something feel their love and understanding of "whatever" is unlike anything else.  Our diversity is part of what makes our world so wonderful IME.  :coolgleamA:  I wish football had a better outcome for those who love it.  I really do.

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Dh has had five concussions in his life.  3 from playing high school football, 1 from diving team and 1 outside of sports.  Our kids have no interest in football.

 

It seems to be dying out around here.  Lacrosse, soccer, and rugby seem to be more popular.  A lot of the rec teams are having trouble getting enough players, which leads to them combining age groups, which leads to more chance of injury if you have a 4th grader playing with a 7th grader.

 

I'm not aware of having a concussion during my 10 years playing football. However, I mostly played offensive and defensive tackle (on "the line"), so I had sub-concussive head-to-head contact on almost every play. I'm not sure that's good for one's brain. 

 

In my part of Los Angeles football is largely dying. The game has been largely abandoned by white middle (and upper middle) class families. Most participants here are black and latino.

 

The High School I attended (and son will likely attend) had 3 football teams (all packed to the roster limits with lots of kids "cut" from teams in the pre-season) during a time when High School was three years (10, 11, 12).

 

Now High School is 4 years and they can barely get enough players for Varsity and JV. No "cuts."

 

And the players are out-of-shape, often obese, and the quality of coaching is horrible. I watched practices this summer (as my boy was inside the HS pool at Water Polo practice, and I found myself becoming almost apoplectic as I saw low-lifes who knew nothing about how to teach the game and disrespected both players and the game in coaching positions. It was awful.

 

Bill

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FWIW, people with all sorts of passions could have written this just substituting a different word than football.   ;)  The vast majority who are passionate about something feel their love and understanding of "whatever" is unlike anything else.  Our diversity is part of what makes our world so wonderful IME.  :coolgleamA:  I wish football had a better outcome for those who love it.  I really do.

 

I'm glad that people find their passions, whatever they are. And it serves no purpose for me to grade the experiences.

 

All I can say is that most of us who played the game feel a very deep connection to the game that's hard to describe.

 

Removing a sport that sparks the depth of passion that football does for so many, hurts. Those who've experienced passions in other areas (to the point that their activity is an intrinsic part of who they are) would no doubt feel the loss if the source of their passion went away.

 

I'm sure I'm highly biased, but among the sports I played football had a special place for me and my mates that other games didn't fill. Lacrosse, hockey, and rugby getting closest. But there is something very special about the training and experience of playing competitive tackle football that isn't really replaceable.

 

Bill

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My son does not play either and he will not unless or until he expresses a sincere desire to play and has reached age 14. It's a HUGE part of our family story tho and I do feel the loss of that tradition. We love the game.

 

It is important to remember, however, that ppl who do not have CTE-like symptoms and issues are not the ones submitting their brains for study.

 

My biggest concern was that my son would come to me one day and tell me that he needed to play football and that it was his passion in life. Because I'm not sure I could have said no. I also tried not to make what was "my passion" into his passion.

 

As it's happened, he has at times (including recently when it was clear that the HS he'd me attending would not have lacrosse) where he's indicated an interest in football (which resulted in my immediately getting him on a Water Polo team).

 

But I'm part of the tradition and love the game. It's a painful conundrum for me.

 

Bill 

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I don't think anything will be lost if they switch to something else - unless perhaps that something else is video games. There are plenty of options in sports or other activities. I've been in the military and seen plenty of "men" come from all sorts of backgrounds. Esprit de Corps can be built practically anywhere.

 

If there weren't health issues with football, it's a fine option for those who like it (as are X games, soccer - the world's football, hockey, robotics, hiking, running, fencing, and almost anything else one can do with fellow friends). But as you've said before, there are significant health issues, so as with taking Mercury for your health... some things really ought to change given information. Kudos to you for finding lacrosse and water polo for your offspring. Given good team members, they will still have an awesome time and have stories to tell their kids.

Soccer and Hockey players have been diagnosed with CTE too and the outcomes in my family have not been negative. All contact sports involve risk. Edited by Sneezyone
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My biggest concern was that my son would come to me one day and tell me that he needed to play football and that it was his passion in life. Because I'm not sure I could have said no. I also tried not to make what was "my passion" into his passion.

 

As it's happened, he has at times (including recently when it was clear that the HS he'd me attending would not have lacrosse) where he's indicated an interest in football (which resulted in my immediately getting him on a Water Polo team).

 

But I'm part of the tradition and love the game. It's a painful conundrum for me.

 

Bill

If we lived closer to my dad, I know it would be an issue. DS shares my family's musculature, speed, coordination and drive and I know he'd make an awesome back. DH and I don't encourage it tho, he shoots hoops with DH instead. It makes me sad that neither of my kids gets psyched for game day the way I do.

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There's lots of concern about rugby here, mostly to do with broken necks in collapsed scrums, I think. I haven't followed it carefully though, as I have a runner and a slug.

 

My concern about youth rugby is how one would get exceptions that would allow for under-age drinking.

 

In my youth (laxer times) the few of us High Schoolers who bolstered the roster of the local rugby club were naturally included in the post-game keggers.

 

For those unfamiliar with the mores and ethos of rugby, the host team is required to have a sufficient supply of beer within a (hopefully) 5-minute radius of the field to meet the medical needs of both sides. And the two teams would rapidly pound drinks in an effort to get ahead of the pain we all knew was quickly going to descend upon us. When sufficiently numbed the limerick singing would start up. Also problematic.

 

How does one deal with that in a youth league today? I see potential problems here :D

 

Rugby. Great game. But damn. Painful.

 

Bill

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If we lived closer to my dad, I know it would be an issue. DS shares my family's musculature, speed, coordination and drive and I know he'd make an awesome back. DH and I don't encourage it tho, he shoots hoops with DH instead. It makes me sad that neither of my kids gets psyched for game day the way I do.

 

I still get tingles thinking back on the feeling I got as I started putting on my gear before games.

 

The rush of chemicals pouring out of my brain, the sharpening of senses, the sensation of the peripheral vision widening, and by game start a strange mix of absolute peak excitement combined with strategic calm. A mental zone where every action feels instinctual.

 

There is a beauty is that state that I can't adequately describe.

 

Bill 

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That is a great perspective, I am happy to hear it. It explains a lot.

 

My dad was also a college football player. But he has never been very positive about it. My grandfather was his high school football coach and it seems like it was always a chore to my dad, and also something he had to be good at.

 

But I bet it was like that for my grandfather, who did love the game.

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That is a great perspective, I am happy to hear it. It explains a lot.

 

My dad was also a college football player. But he has never been very positive about it. My grandfather was his high school football coach and it seems like it was always a chore to my dad, and also something he had to be good at.

 

But I bet it was like that for my grandfather, who did love the game.

 

It can be a problem when dads force their passions on their sons. It isn't always an easy impulse to overcome.

 

I'm not immune to the feelings myself and rationalize some of my "living vicariously" by getting my kid into sports I never played. I really believe that if one has experienced a sport or activity that has allowed them to "enter the zone" (for lack of a better expression), that they hope their children will have similar experiences.

 

We just need to respect individual needs and attempt to let kids find their own passions.

 

Or sign them up for Water Polo :D

 

Bill (still evolving)

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My understanding is that CTE cannot be determined or diagnosed until after death and subsequent brain examination.

 

I read articles of former NFL players who took their own lives in such a way to allow study and examination of brain tissue- they were convinced they had CTE and were suffering.

 

It's tragic.

 

But I like watching football. I've never played but can see the athleticism, intelligence and primal instincts required to play it. I have enormous admiration for the heart and drive of the athletes who dedicate their lives to any sport. Football is particularly brutal injury wise and I don't think there are many who are ignorant and naive of that. I agree with SpyCars post up thread RE why the appeal for many young men...warriors via video games just isn't the same.

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That is a great perspective, I am happy to hear it. It explains a lot.

 

My dad was also a college football player. But he has never been very positive about it. My grandfather was his high school football coach and it seems like it was always a chore to my dad, and also something he had to be good at.

 

But I bet it was like that for my grandfather, who did love the game.

As one who hears from many high school students, there are many who are in activities including sports because they are their parent's passion, not theirs. This includes parents who insist Junior go to their Alma mater or follow them into a profession.

 

It can be tough for parents to realize their kids aren't young versions of themselves. The kids have their own dopamine rushes from other activities and their own general likes and dislikes. My own boys benefitted from my hearing these stories from the student's perspective and I realized I hadn't cared to follow my parents either. We learned to embrace what our guys love, cheerleading for them with their lives. It's opened up many new things for us, and has generally been awesome. We have had a state chess champ, have a med school student, and are quickly trying to pick up some Arabic for a trip to Jordan.  I'd have predicted (or planned) none of these on my own.

 

It actually is probably more fun than having had kids who totally matched our image, but it still boggles my mind that my boys grew up on a pony farm - many kids' dream - and weren't in love with riding, even though most of their friends were.

 

It's weird how life turns out, but no regrets for not pushing our boys into becoming us, and a bit of fun watching them enjoy their passions.

Edited by creekland
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I can tell you why. There are few sports or other activities that give boys and young men the same opportunity to feel like warriors who can pit themselves against their enemies in a sort of combat that builds esprit de corps, develops physical confidence, mental toughness, sense of sacrifice and competition, and vitality the way that football does. At least without the much riskier option of going to war.

 

Martial arts accomplishes this, too.

 

And while it is an individual sport, the athletes develop a strong identification with, and loyalty to, their club and their training partners.

 

There are always injury risks in any sport, but football seems to be particularly bad in terms of cumulative damage that cannot be avoided even if you do it right. (In contrast, rock climbing injuries happen because you make a mistake, but not because it is inherent to the sport.)

Edited by regentrude
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I do think that young men in particular are attracted to sports as a kind of masculine assertion of who they are.  And I think that's just fine when it's managed well.

 

I think though there are quite a few sports that can fulfill that function - since different cultures feel that way about entirely different activities, there are a variety of possibilities.

 

It's too bad when there is a kind of a break in family culture, but if a sport proves really a problem, that might be best.  Though I think another possibility is making changes that would improve the old sport.  There is a tendency for people to feel like that would "ruin" it, but in a lot of cases these games have already evolved many times.

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Martial arts accomplishes this, too.

 

And while it is an individual sport, the athletes develop a strong identification with, and loyalty to, their club and their training partners.

 

I was going to say the same thing about fencing. Hard to get more warrior-like than trying to stab someone with a sword while avoiding being stabbed yourself!

 

I can understand, though, how there might be a different level of comradery in a sport where team members compete as a group, versus fencing and martial arts where competition is still one-on-one even if the individual is part of a larger team. Although it would certainly make it more interesting if you had all 12 fencers on an NCAA fencing team engaging all 12 fencers in the other team simultaneously in one big battle!  :laugh:

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I was going to say the same thing about fencing. Hard to get more warrior-like than trying to stab someone with a sword while avoiding being stabbed yourself!

 

I can understand, though, how there might be a different level of comradery in a sport where team members compete as a group, versus fencing and martial arts where competition is still one-on-one even if the individual is part of a larger team. Although it would certainly make it more interesting if you had all 12 fencers on an NCAA fencing team engaging all 12 fencers in the other team simultaneously in one big battle!  :laugh:

 

 

See, you went precisely where I was going. If you could lock the members of two dojos (or fencing clubs) in an enclosed space and have them go until the last man (men) standing....then we'd have a sport :D

 

In all seriousness, there are all types of kids. Those who want to play football are a minority. It's just when the thing that is your bliss disappears, it's hard.

 

Bill

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But I like watching football. I've never played but can see the athleticism, intelligence and primal instincts required to play it. I have enormous admiration for the heart and drive of the athletes who dedicate their lives to any sport. 

 

This is how I feel about the game and I understand why players are so passionate about it. 

 

If anyone is interested, the doctor who discovered CTE wrote an excellent book that came out in August. I highly recommend it.

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My understanding is that CTE cannot be determined or diagnosed until after death and subsequent brain examination.

 

I read articles of former NFL players who took their own lives in such a way to allow study and examination of brain tissue- they were convinced they had CTE and were suffering.

 

It's tragic.

 

But I like watching football. I've never played but can see the athleticism, intelligence and primal instincts required to play it. I have enormous admiration for the heart and drive of the athletes who dedicate their lives to any sport. Football is particularly brutal injury wise and I don't think there are many who are ignorant and naive of that. I agree with SpyCars post up thread RE why the appeal for many young men...warriors via video games just isn't the same.

 

Some would argue that football isn't brutal enough. The fact is that (for the most part) players are so padded up that they don't generally get hurt, even when they crash into each other with great force. That's part of what makes the game so fun. You don't really have to hold back.

 

In the contrasting example of rugby offered earlier player do need to hold back to a degree to avoid serious injury.

 

From personal experience, rugby is a far more brutal game than football. I never had a major injury in either sport (if one doesn't count a lightly fractured finger as major), but every rugby match I ever played in left me far more banged up, sore, bruised, and bloody than any football game I played in (except for the bloody part in one football game where my helmet broke inside and a metal piece kept slicing deeper into my forehead, but there were no other helmets big enough to fit my massive noggin, so I played on with blood streaming down my face and my uniform completely soaked in my blood).

 

Rugby...that's a brutal game. The point made by Bluegoat above (and like-mined people)  is whether less padding would make the game safer by making players take greater caution. I'm not sure how well that would work. Maybe? Right now football helmets give at least the illusion of safety, but if that's just masquerading the damage (as it seems to be) it is a problem.

 

I'd be curious about a high-tech head-gear similar in design to the old leather helmets worn during the game's inception. Some rugby players wear similar protection now.

 

But yeah, participating in something...pushing oneself to one's limits is better than X Box.

 

Bill 

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I do think that young men in particular are attracted to sports as a kind of masculine assertion of who they are.  And I think that's just fine when it's managed well.

 

I think though there are quite a few sports that can fulfill that function - since different cultures feel that way about entirely different activities, there are a variety of possibilities.

 

It's too bad when there is a kind of a break in family culture, but if a sport proves really a problem, that might be best.  Though I think another possibility is making changes that would improve the old sport.  There is a tendency for people to feel like that would "ruin" it, but in a lot of cases these games have already evolved many times.

 

Young women too. And not just because I'm pandering on a forum where I'm out number a thousand to one. I believe it.

 

Not all girls are "sporty" (just like not all boys are sporty), but I've seen the same drive and intensity in sports with young ladies as with young gentlemen. 

 

Bill

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I would have enjoyed playing football.

 

I wish there was a way to make it mostly brain safe.

 

A broken arm or leg here and there I don't worry much about, but brains...brains are pretty critical.

 

I have nephews who play, I see how much they love it but I also worry for them. One had a pretty severe concussion in high school. He's now playing rugby in college.

Edited by maize
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Right now football helmets give at least the illusion of safety

I went and googled "tackle football" after reading the NYT article. There are several videos on Youtube that show the helmet being pushed off the player's head leaving his head to hit the ground unprotected.

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It can be a problem when dads force their passions on their sons. It isn't always an easy impulse to overcome.

 

 

I remember meeting a guy whose six children all swam, some willingly, some otherwise; he had also swum.  I was chatting to him about swimming and he talked about how nothing gave the same feeling of team membership, the value of hard work and achievement.  I said that that was exactly what I experienced as a child playing in orchestras.  His mouth opened and shut.  He couldn't take in the idea.

 

Now I will accept that his own experience was also tied up in joy at physical exertion (something that I didn't really understand myself until adulthood), but the aspects that he mentioned to me were not confined to swimming nor to sport more generally, and he didn't seem to know what to do with that information.

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Young women too. And not just because I'm pandering on a forum where I'm out number a thousand to one. I believe it.

 

 

There was a young woman at my boys' school who moved from (field) hockey to rugby in her teens.  She was picked for the Scotland under 19s squad, and when she just missed getting into Oxford, she was snapped up by an Ivy League college.  

 

There are benefits to being in an unusually physical sport if you are female - I doubt if the scholarship would have come her way if she had stayed with hockey, which is widely played by women here.

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Thanks. Very depressing to read. But too important to ignore.

 

Bill

Agree totally.

 

It's so incredibly sad. I find myself not even watching as much foot ball because I feel it is condoning the injuries or something. And yet, I want to pass on the love of the game to my kids....because there is something about football that is different from other sports. Beauty and grace plus primal brute strength...skill plus sheer grit. 

 

I'm trying to get into baseball...but it's not the same. 

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I would be curious to know how much of the appeal to young boys has to do with the fact that the professional players earn such boat loads of money. How many kids play because they fantasize about going pro and becoming multimillionaires and famous?

 

There are other sports that can satisfy the physical need to go to your limits - but they don't tend to make you rich or famous.

(Not to mention that there are many professions that are also very dangerous, but nowhere near as luxuriously compensated.)

 

Edited by regentrude
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Agree totally.

 

It's so incredibly sad. I find myself not even watching as much foot ball because I feel it is condoning the injuries or something. And yet, I want to pass on the love of the game to my kids....because there is something about football that is different from other sports. Beauty and grace plus primal brute strength...skill plus sheer grit. 

 

I'm trying to get into baseball...but it's not the same. 

 

Is lacrosse a thing where you are?

 

Lacrosse isn't a "no-risk" sport in terms of concussions (or other injuries), but you don't have the perpetual sub-concussive helmet-to-helmet contacts that are inevitable in football.

 

While not a direct replacement for football, lacrosse is a very fun and fast-moving game that has enough contact to make it attractive for boys who like to get physical. Personally, lacrosse filled the space left by football for my son (who is rather like his dad in enjoying contact sports). I'd say most of the boys on the lacrosse teams I've coached came to the game for the same reasons. They are families who would have been in football in past decades who are just saying no.

 

One great aspect of lacrosse is it can accommodate athletes of many body types. One need not be a "brute," and some of the best players are small fast guys.

 

Baseball...you know. 

 

Bill

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I would be curious to know how much of the appeal to young boys has to do with the fact that the professional players earn such boat loads of money. How many kids play because they fantasize about going pro and becoming multimillionaires and famous?

 

There are other sports that can satisfy the physical need to go to your limits - but they don't tend to make you rich or famous.

(Not to mention that there are many professions that are also very dangerous, but nowhere near as luxuriously compensated.)

 

Who can say what motivates individual boys (and their families)? Dreams of money no doubt motivates some—I've seen this hope for riches in elite youth basketball especially (as the Uncle of a very successful current D1 basketball player at Stanford).

 

But I really don't think dreams of riches explains the passion boys who play football feel for the game. In my day pro football wasn't a road to wealth for all but the biggest stars of the game. I had one teammate go onto success in college, the NFL, and who then became the longest-serving coach (until recently) in the league. But I don't think any of us were playing thinking we'd get rich playing football. Very few even make D1 University teams. I didn't.

 

Those looking at playing Lacrosse professionally see most players making peanuts and usually working second-jobs in the offseason. 

 

I don't know that I will convince you, but there is something very special about the game of football for those who play and love the game. People find transcendent experiences in many ways: the musician who gets lost in the beauty of creation, the performer who feels the rush of being on stage. For those who love the game, playing football is a path to finding transcendence. Trust me :D

 

Is it worth risking the integrity of one's mind/brain to experience transcendence? 

 

Bill

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My son actually played lacrosse briefly but he's not a team sport guy really. I more want something I can watch on tv....although I could see ds5 liking lacrosse one day. He's small but tough.

Is lacrosse a thing where you are?

 

Lacrosse isn't a "no-risk" sport in terms of concussions (or other injuries), but you don't have the perpetual sub-concussive helmet-to-helmet contacts that are inevitable in football.

 

While not a direct replacement for football, lacrosse is a very fun and fast-moving game that has enough contact to make it attractive for boys who like to get physical. Personally, lacrosse filled the space left by football for my son (who is rather like his dad in enjoying contact sports). I'd say most of the boys on the lacrosse teams I've coached came to the game for the same reasons. They are families who would have been in football in past decades who are just saying no.

 

One great aspect of lacrosse is it can accommodate athletes of many body types. One need not be a "brute," and some of the best players are small fast guys.

 

Baseball...you know.

 

Bill

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I remember meeting a guy whose six children all swam, some willingly, some otherwise; he had also swum.  I was chatting to him about swimming and he talked about how nothing gave the same feeling of team membership, the value of hard work and achievement.  I said that that was exactly what I experienced as a child playing in orchestras.  His mouth opened and shut.  He couldn't take in the idea.

 

Now I will accept that his own experience was also tied up in joy at physical exertion (something that I didn't really understand myself until adulthood), but the aspects that he mentioned to me were not confined to swimming nor to sport more generally, and he didn't seem to know what to do with that information.

 

I can relate to this guy. If one has experienced (what's the word I'm searching for?) a transcendent passion that puts one into the zone of instinctual experience, "bliss", then who doesn't want that experience for their children?

 

Those moments are the greatest parts of being alive IMO.

 

One just needs to remember that what fueled our passion might not be the same thing that fuels our children's passion.

 

For me, that requires a little counter-programming against my own biases.

 

Bill

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Is it worth risking the integrity of one's mind/brain to experience transcendence?

 

Bill

Sadly, no. Not once the risk is known.

 

The determining factor for me is the fact that people with injured brains have an unfortunate tendency to hurt--emotionally and/or physically--other people.

 

At that point it isn't just your own brain and quality of life you are putting at risk.

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