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Shiller Vs RightStart?


Runningmom80
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All of the threads I've found comparing the two are really old.  

 

I have a 7 year old DD, likes to move, NEEDS to work with her hands, (she must always be touching something.  :banghead: ) and is not enjoying or keeping up with Singapore 2A.  

 

Last year we did Mequon Orange, all of Singapore 1B and part of MM 2 A.  I started her on Singapore 2A and it's not going well.  I have base ten set, playing cards, place value coins, all of the things Singapore calls for, and the lessons just aren't sticking for her.

 

She's also doing vision therapy and has homework every day so while her energy for movement knows no bounds, her stamina for academics is lower than usual.

 

I have a feeling she would do better with games and manipulatives.  Even more than Singapore offers. I've looked at Rightstart, she places into B because she hasn't done addition or subtraction with carrying yet.  That's fine, I don't mind her being at a lower level than her grade, but it seems like lots of people bail on it after level C.  I don't want to invest in all of the materials for just one kid, for only a couple of years. (If it took us that long)

 

I cam across Shiller on Facebook, and don't hear much about it.  DD did 3 years at a Montessori school, so I think a return to that would be beneficial.  Since I haven't read much about it, and can't find many threads on it, I wonder how good it is. 

 

Any insight would be appreciated! 

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I know others here use Shiller so hopefully they chime in. I can say both RS and Shiller are Montessori based so if your DD spent 3 years in Montessori both would feel more familiar to her. I worked in a preschool- 12th grade Montessori school for a few years so I was very familiar with the materials. I have found RS to follow the basic math teachings in a similar way and we often pull out our Montessori materials to sub in RS.

 

Shiller is an even better option because their materials seem more "Montessori" and follow a bit more closely. I considered it for a while myself.

 

With all that to say, in Montessori when a child just didn't like the materials or had executive functioning struggles we often subbed in Singapore. It was the only workbook based math my school was willing to entertain. Your DD may just need a bit more time in concrete before moving to abstract and both of those programs could offer that. They are both spendy and a commitment though.

 

What about Math Lessons for a Living Education? It is cheaper and you piece thr materials together at home. Maybe just using it to provide the concrete in a different way? Just a thought :)

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My dd did almost no academics during VT, so you might want to toss paper-driven stuff for right and be done with it. After her vision is corrected, her visual processing and visual memory will improve, which will make a lot of academics go better.

 

Did they screen her for retained reflexes? Honestly, I think by age 7, it's helpful to move from "needs to move" to more precise words like ADHD and to ask whether "lessons just are not sticking" = an SLD. My dd had ADHD and did VT and had reflexes that didn't get caught, so that's why I mention that. The lessons not sticking though, that could be more.

 

I think at this point I would get Family Math, some Peggy Kaye books, or Ronit Bird. And I hate to mention this, but if she can't do any addition with carrying at all (not even 2 digit), then she's still in RS A, not RS B. And although RS B reviews the content of level A, it does it quite rapidly. That's why I was saying at some point you have to figure out what's actually going on.

 

I used RightStart with my ADHD dd btw. My kids are 10 years apart, so I rebought it then to use with my ds. He turned out to have SLDs, so for him nothing is a very good fit. So to me, it's not as simple as oh RS is better or something is better for wiggly kids. RS is pretty heavily dependent on the abacus. You might do better to look at Ronit Bird. 

 

Is your plan to get some evals after the VT is done? And have you checked her for retained reflexes? If she has retained reflexes and the VT didn't check for them, that will totally affect her progress.

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Her retained reflex is very slight so we aren’t working on it at this time.

 

I do have family math and I have the book Let’s Play Math, so I can definitely do lots of non paper stuff. That’s why I was thinking about Shiller, because there is little writing in the first 3 grades.

 

I’m confused about the Right start comment. Singapore doesn’t introduce carrying at all until 2A. I don’t know that it’s a K level skill? (RS A corresponds with K if I understand that correctly?) she has her 1-10 math facts down, needs more practice with 1-18 but can figure them out. The placement test put her squarely in B. If she’s in A im really hesitant to use RS purely from a money perspective.

 

As for the lessons not sticking, I don’t get the feeling it’s because she has an SLD, although anything is possible. I think it’s either moving too fast or she’s just tired from the VT homework. I will definitely keep that in mind though, she’s bright, if not GT and can be compensating.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

ETA: Ronit Bird looks interesting! Thanks for mentioning it.

Edited by Runningmom80
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I know others here use Shiller so hopefully they chime in. I can say both RS and Shiller are Montessori based so if your DD spent 3 years in Montessori both would feel more familiar to her. I worked in a preschool- 12th grade Montessori school for a few years so I was very familiar with the materials. I have found RS to follow the basic math teachings in a similar way and we often pull out our Montessori materials to sub in RS.

 

Shiller is an even better option because their materials seem more "Montessori" and follow a bit more closely. I considered it for a while myself.

 

With all that to say, in Montessori when a child just didn't like the materials or had executive functioning struggles we often subbed in Singapore. It was the only workbook based math my school was willing to entertain. Your DD may just need a bit more time in concrete before moving to abstract and both of those programs could offer that. They are both spendy and a commitment though.

 

What about Math Lessons for a Living Education? It is cheaper and you piece thr materials together at home. Maybe just using it to provide the concrete in a different way? Just a thought :)

Yes, the spendy and commitment is what is giving me pause!

 

We are secular so that Math book would not work, but it sounds kind of like Life of Fred which may be an option, at least for now. I can read it to her until she’s done with VT. I’d be hesitant to use only that though, so I guess I’d still need to decide on a spine.

 

Thanks for the help!

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Can I offer another suggestion?  Before making a huge commitment with either Shiller or RS, you may want to look into Gattegno.  Mostly oral, uses c-rods, and the first book is online.  So is the second. The entire set is sold for about $60.  There are even videos on youtube that show Dr. Gattegno using it in a classroom with first graders. 

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Her retained reflex is very slight so we aren’t working on it at this time.

 

I do have family math and I have the book Let’s Play Math, so I can definitely do lots of non paper stuff. That’s why I was thinking about Shiller, because there is little writing in the first 3 grades.

 

I’m confused about the Right start comment. Singapore doesn’t introduce carrying at all until 2A. I don’t know that it’s a K level skill? (RS A corresponds with K if I understand that correctly?) she has her 1-10 math facts down, needs more practice with 1-18 but can figure them out. The placement test put her squarely in B. If she’s in A im really hesitant to use RS purely from a money perspective.

 

As for the lessons not sticking, I don’t get the feeling it’s because she has an SLD, although anything is possible. I think it’s either moving too fast or she’s just tired from the VT homework. I will definitely keep that in mind though, she’s bright, if not GT and can be compensating.

 

Thanks for your help!

 

ETA: Ronit Bird looks interesting! Thanks for mentioning it.

 

You don't have ages in your sig and I thought I had seen your posts a lot. Like I'm not wanting to say things that are maybe already obvious to you, lol. I haven't looked at the RS placement test in a while. They made it after I repped for them, because it was so awkward to place kids. RS does not have a typical progression, so no you can't just say she did K5 here, go to there. There's more flexibility there to look at development and readiness. Also, you're saying she has a gifted IQ. I have no doubt. I know from reading your posts (which again, I can't remember all of) that you have bright kids. That's why I'm saying it's time to pick up the clue phone. My ds was diagnosed with an SLD in K5, at newly 6, based on discrepancy. For a kid to be 7 with a gifted IQ and not be able to add 7+8 would be a significant discrepancy. I'm not saying she has an SLD. I'm just saying it's time to get more accurate words and that something is going on.

 

The 2 digit addition with trades (27+93) taught in level A is reviewed at a faster pace in level B. If the dc is struggling significantly or has low processing speed, the pace and the emphasis on mental math, especially in level B, could be overwhelming.

 

Life of Fred does not have any instruction. It's cute, but there's no actual instruction.

 

Psych testing would let you pin down how much of this is ADHD (your "she needs to move" gig), whether processing speed is affecting her, whether there's an SLD, etc. SLD math (dyscalculia) is a *number sense* disorder NOT the same as meaning you're bad at math. My ds is considered *math gifted* with a *math disability*. The two things are on opposite sides of the brain, and you can be both. 

 

And maybe she doesn't have an SLD. That would be an awesome thing! But evals as soon as your VT are done would be really, really wise. I didn't eval my ADHD-on dd until she was 11-ish, and it was the DUMBEST MISTAKE EVER. We saw these kind of funky contradictions when my dd was the age of yours, and I called a psych and got the blow-off from the secretary. I let that stand, and it was such a mistake. Pay for good evals with someone who really slows down and gets in her brain. Go to Hoagies' Gifted and use their list to find someone. You'll learn a ton and it will radically change how you work with her. Evals are about helping you do better, not about calling her defective. Our evals have always had the psychs talking about STRENGTHS. Then we find those holes and work with them better, sure. But ALL the psychs I've used (well except for one jerk) have been about strengths.

 

That's a huge mistake to let retained reflexes go untreated. Huge. It shows your person doesn't know what they're doing. Sorry, being blunt there. That's absolutely, positively ABSURD from a neurological perspective. The primitive reflexes must be integrated to allow the vestibular and visual reflexes to develop. So how do they REALLY think your vision is going to correct completely and result in a whole, functional child if they leave the neurological pathways not present?

 

Yeah, if that's what your VT doc is saying, the guy is such an idiot I would stop therapy. I would get an OT or PT who is good, get the reflexes integrated, retest to see if you even NEED that jerk VT, then go back if you still need a bit more. 

 

But I'm in a blunt mood today.

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My ds' behavior calmed down RADICALLY when we got his reflexes to integrate. They're not that hard to do, and 1-2 months of consistent, daily effort could take care of it. This whole body in motion, needs to move gig could calm down.

 

Whoever is giving you advice on this stuff is, well their advice is questionable. 

 

I actually have data on that calming down btw. One (idiot) neuropsych diagnosed ds with ADHD-inattentive based on a TOVA (tap tap computer test for attention) that he said clearly showed inattention. We worked with a PT (after several failed OTs), got the reflexes to integrate, redid testing this time with the Quotient (similar, tap tap for attention, etc.) with the ped, and ds' attention is literally now like 94th percentile or something.

 

So body work can make a HUGE change in how they present. In a case like yours, where you know you have retained reflexes, I wouldn't even do psych evals till you get the reflexes integrated. The order would be reflexes, then VT, then psych. That way you can be pretty confident you're not diagnosing something unnecessarily that would go away with treatment. 

Edited by OhElizabeth
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fwiw I've not used Shiller but used RS through level E with ds. I would disagree with Elizabeth on her placement into RS. It was the case that RSB was the entry point and that is where I started ds without issue before that he only did some light math games. I would think considering her background she would not have an issue at all, you *might* have to slow down parts b/c B goes through a lot of material but I wouldn't bother with A, I tried it with my daughter but promptly sold it.

 

eta it was a great fit for ds, he had strong verbal skills and conceptual skills but was weak with memorization and handwriting. My daughter who was the opposite hated it.

Edited by soror
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I LOVE Ronit Bird.  :001_wub:   We did her Dots ebook, then played the Positive/Negative Turnovers game from her free card games ebook. That got us through subtraction and addition of positive and negative numbers. We're mostly through the C-Rods ebook, but I keep working on it. My goal is to get him through 4 digit addition with trades. It's just really slow in coming because of the math sense. We play lots of other games to keep fleshing out the ideas. So RB is our conceptual spine and Family Math, etc. are how I flesh it out to hit more topics and get more ways of approaching it. 

 

You need bridging to do RB's multiplication book. Ds sorta gets it. With him, it just takes time to do it in a lot of contexts till it clicks solidly. He has autism, so if I change the manipulative, all of a sudden he doesn't know it again.  :banghead:

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eta it was a great fit for ds, he had strong verbal skills and conceptual skills but was weak with memorization and handwriting. My daughter who was the opposite hated it.

 

This is a really important distinction. I'm unclear where the op's dc is in the progression.

 

7+8

17+2

12+49

1234+2281

 

Does she have any difficulties applying the skills to new topics? How is she with money and time? Basic word problems? And can she do those addition tasks with her tools (abacus, c-rods etc.)? 

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You don't have ages in your sig and I thought I had seen your posts a lot. Like I'm not wanting to say things that are maybe already obvious to you, lol. I haven't looked at the RS placement test in a while. They made it after I repped for them, because it was so awkward to place kids. RS does not have a typical progression, so no you can't just say she did K5 here, go to there. There's more flexibility there to look at development and readiness. Also, you're saying she has a gifted IQ. I have no doubt. I know from reading your posts (which again, I can't remember all of) that you have bright kids. That's why I'm saying it's time to pick up the clue phone. My ds was diagnosed with an SLD in K5, at newly 6, based on discrepancy. For a kid to be 7 with a gifted IQ and not be able to add 7+8 would be a significant discrepancy. I'm not saying she has an SLD. I'm just saying it's time to get more accurate words and that something is going on.

 

The 2 digit addition with trades (27+93) taught in level A is reviewed at a faster pace in level B. If the dc is struggling significantly or has low processing speed, the pace and the emphasis on mental math, especially in level B, could be overwhelming.

 

Life of Fred does not have any instruction. It's cute, but there's no actual instruction.

 

Psych testing would let you pin down how much of this is ADHD (your "she needs to move" gig), whether processing speed is affecting her, whether there's an SLD, etc. SLD math (dyscalculia) is a *number sense* disorder NOT the same as meaning you're bad at math. My ds is considered *math gifted* with a *math disability*. The two things are on opposite sides of the brain, and you can be both. 

 

And maybe she doesn't have an SLD. That would be an awesome thing! But evals as soon as your VT are done would be really, really wise. I didn't eval my ADHD-on dd until she was 11-ish, and it was the DUMBEST MISTAKE EVER. We saw these kind of funky contradictions when my dd was the age of yours, and I called a psych and got the blow-off from the secretary. I let that stand, and it was such a mistake. Pay for good evals with someone who really slows down and gets in her brain. Go to Hoagies' Gifted and use their list to find someone. You'll learn a ton and it will radically change how you work with her. Evals are about helping you do better, not about calling her defective. Our evals have always had the psychs talking about STRENGTHS. Then we find those holes and work with them better, sure. But ALL the psychs I've used (well except for one jerk) have been about strengths.

 

That's a huge mistake to let retained reflexes go untreated. Huge. It shows your person doesn't know what they're doing. Sorry, being blunt there. That's absolutely, positively ABSURD from a neurological perspective. The primitive reflexes must be integrated to allow the vestibular and visual reflexes to develop. So how do they REALLY think your vision is going to correct completely and result in a whole, functional child if they leave the neurological pathways not present?

 

Yeah, if that's what your VT doc is saying, the guy is such an idiot I would stop therapy. I would get an OT or PT who is good, get the reflexes integrated, retest to see if you even NEED that jerk VT, then go back if you still need a bit more. 

 

But I'm in a blunt mood today.

 

 

I totally hear this and appreciate the help. To the bolded, you make a great point and more information never hurts.  I don't see SLD's as defects, I just see them as differences in how brains work, so I'm not against a diagnosis, if she has one (or several.)  

 

I will ask further about the reflexes, I know you've helped me a lot already, but would you have any advice on where I can find more information on this?  I absolutely trust you but am wary of making my argument to them with "a nice lady from the internet" as my source of information.  :lol:   As far as stopping right now, I had to prepay for the lessons and I'm not sure I can get that money back. (Our insurance doesn't cover any of this)  She has the moro, and they said it was slight and we could do hiss breathing?  Does that make sense at all?  I will be honest that I haven't had time to research this stuffl.  This doctor came highly recommended from our pediatrician whose daughter went through the therapy as well, so I didn't really practice due diligence. 

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This is a really important distinction. I'm unclear where the op's dc is in the progression.

 

7+8

17+2

12+49

1234+2281

 

Does she have any difficulties applying the skills to new topics? How is she with money and time? Basic word problems? And can she do those addition tasks with her tools (abacus, c-rods etc.)? 

 

 

Neither of my twins have facts after 10 memorized, and that is totally on me because we were very, I'll say "relaxed" last year.  I bought Let's play Math and Family math because of this.  She can do the first 2 problems, she needed to count her fingers for the first one, but can do double digit addition with no carrying.  Last year she seemed to pick up things quickly.  We did zero math from may to september which was also my bad.  I had been reading too much John Holt.  :lol:   They just turned 7 in July, so they are young second graders, FWIW. (Well, grade level is totally arbitrary anyways) 

 

Money, she's actually pretty good, because she's gotten an allowance and I've been on the ball with real life learning as far as that is concerned. She still mixes up nickels and dimes, but can add a couple of coins at a time.  Time isn't solid, but she gets the gist.  She still has to count by 5's for the minutes. Basic word problems, as long as she can do the math, she's fine with.  She was great with c-rods, also with the base 10.  That's the Montessori training. lol

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When thinking about placement and what each level entails, keep in mind that the S&S between RS editions is quite different.  In 1st edition, you definitely wouldn't want to bother with A unless your DD is struggling with place value (1s vs. 10s vs. 100s.  That's as far as it goes in that level).  Otherwise, it sounds like B would be the best placement.  1st edition B focuses strongly on mental math, place value, and addition through 4-digit numbers.  Other topics are covered, too, of course, but that's the focus.  There is only a brief intro to subtraction because the author thinks (and I agree) that if children are really fluent with addition and breaking numbers apart to add them, subtraction will come much more easily.  By the end of 1st edition C they've become fluent with the subtraction facts and mental math involving subtraction, learned 4-digit subtraction, have been introduced to fractions and division, can use drawing tools, and should have multiplication facts up to 5x5 mastered plus a lot of experience, though perhaps not fluency, with facts up to 10x10.  1st edition C is like the missing quarter of 1st grade + all of 2nd grade + one quart to half of 3rd grade.  Most of the complaints with 1st edition C came down to it being too much for many kids to complete in one school year.

 

BTW, if you do 1st edition, your upfront cost will be substantially lower than if you go for 2nd edition.  A quick check on their website puts the the first year with level B 1st edition at roughly 2/3 the price as 2nd edition.

 

Lol, sorry for the sales-like pitch.  I know I mentioned on your other thread that after doing both editions with different kids I much prefer 1st edition through level C.  

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I totally hear this and appreciate the help. To the bolded, you make a great point and more information never hurts.  I don't see SLD's as defects, I just see them as differences in how brains work, so I'm not against a diagnosis, if she has one (or several.)  

 

I will ask further about the reflexes, I know you've helped me a lot already, but would you have any advice on where I can find more information on this?  I absolutely trust you but am wary of making my argument to them with "a nice lady from the internet" as my source of information.  :lol:   As far as stopping right now, I had to prepay for the lessons and I'm not sure I can get that money back. (Our insurance doesn't cover any of this)  She has the moro, and they said it was slight and we could do hiss breathing?  Does that make sense at all?  I will be honest that I haven't had time to research this stuffl.  This doctor came highly recommended from our pediatrician whose daughter went through the therapy as well, so I didn't really practice due diligence. 

 

Yeah, if you came over to LC and asked, we'd have cautioned you against prepaying for VT, that's for sure. ;) But, you know, let's hope for the best.

 

Ok, so moro. Honestly, I'm just really astonished. Just google it. Youtube has all the tests. I'm crumb bucket lousy at these things, so I used an OT and a PT. But we've had multiple people on LC who just sat there with the list from Pyramid of Potential and youtube and figured it out. The PT we used like the integration exercises from PoP, and they worked for us. I know two OTs who use RMT (rhythmic movement therapy). One was an OT we used, and we got some progress, not enough. But I think it was her and am not saying RMT can't work. I know another OT doing really well with RMT. 

 

We've had some people dealing with Moro on LC who got major changes when it integrated. It really makes you wonder if there are more not integrated (very possible, use youtube and test) and then it makes you wonder about the vestibular and vision reflexes. I don't know, I don't think the buddy system of referrals means the guy is right about everything. It doesn't even stand to reason. And Moro is pretty significant in effect. You really want to follow up on that yourself. 

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I haven't used Right Start but really liked Shiller when we used it. It was great for my DS who enjoyed math. It's so gentle when they are little and it doesn't feel like work. It feels like just spending time with your child and my DS was able to think through math problems in a complex way at a very young age. Shiller provides a lot of support to his families too. 

 

We switched because when I tried it with my middle DDs, it was a complete failure. It could have been that anything would have been a disaster with them at that point, but they struggled with math in the beginning and the lessons that seemed so intuitive to DS and me made no impact on them. I thought it was too gentle and not explicit enough for them because they weren't retaining anything and they didn't find it fun like DS did. They never found any math enjoyable, though. Maybe I gave up too soon or maybe it's not a good fit for kids who struggle.

 

I didn't use it with my youngest DD either because by the time she came along I wanted something that required less time of me as a teacher. She would have done really well with it if I'd had the time. 

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Yeah, if you came over to LC and asked, we'd have cautioned you against prepaying for VT, that's for sure. ;) But, you know, let's hope for the best.

 

Ok, so moro. Honestly, I'm just really astonished. Just google it. Youtube has all the tests. I'm crumb bucket lousy at these things, so I used an OT and a PT. But we've had multiple people on LC who just sat there with the list from Pyramid of Potential and youtube and figured it out. The PT we used like the integration exercises from PoP, and they worked for us. I know two OTs who use RMT (rhythmic movement therapy). One was an OT we used, and we got some progress, not enough. But I think it was her and am not saying RMT can't work. I know another OT doing really well with RMT.

 

We've had some people dealing with Moro on LC who got major changes when it integrated. It really makes you wonder if there are more not integrated (very possible, use youtube and test) and then it makes you wonder about the vestibular and vision reflexes. I don't know, I don't think the buddy system of referrals means the guy is right about everything. It doesn't even stand to reason. And Moro is pretty significant in effect. You really want to follow up on that yourself.

I’ll check out youtube! I tried to do the tests on her myself and couldn’t see the reflex, but I’m not exactly a medical professional.

 

FWIW, it wasn’t a friend who recommended this Developmental optometrist, it was our pediatrician. I’m going to see if I can talk to her and ask her opinion since she has personal experience with this office.

 

Our VT/ dev optometrist’s website has a whole page on primitive reflexes and why it’s important to treat them so I’ll definitely follow up with him again.

 

Thanks again!

Edited by Runningmom80
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I am going through something similar with one of mine. Last year math went really well but then we started vision therapy and took a break and all of a sudden things are no longer easy. I am not sure if it is because the little bit of vision therapy homework and once a week office appoinment really takes a lot of mental energy and does not leave much left, the long break or both or something else. It does not help that he does not like vision therapy and there is progress and improvement but it is slow and we are not all there yet. We are working on integrating reflexes and are almost done with that based on testing them and I have not seen a dramatic difference with that but I do think it is part of the puzzle.

 

I agree about the progression listed. I did that with my current 7 year old with Addition Facts That Stick and Subtraction Facts That Stick with some Gattegno then I used c-rods and some Education Unboxed to move from the facts to 20 to 2 digit addition and subtraction in the order listed.

Edited by MistyMountain
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I am going through something similar with one of mine. Last year math went really well but then we started vision therapy and took a break and all of a sudden things are no longer easy. I am not sure if it is because the little bit of vision therapy homework and once a week office appoinment really takes a lot of mental energy and does not leave much left, the long break or both or something else. It does not help that he does not like vision therapy and there is progress and improvement but it is slow and we are not all there yet. We are working on integrating reflexes and are almost done with that based on testing them and I have not seen a dramatic difference with that but I do think it is part of the puzzle.

 

I agree about the progression listed. I did that with my current 7 year old with Addition Facts That Stick and Subtraction Facts That Stick with some Gattegno then I used c-rods and some Education Unboxed to move from the facts to 20 to 2 digit addition and subtraction in the order listed.

The VT work is really hard. I did parts of it last night and wanted to cry. Lol

 

I ended up going with Shiller, because the Montessori is familiar to us. I’m going to supplement with math games, family math, etc. keep writing to a minimum until she’s done.

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