Not Helping with money for college kids- are we the only ones?

[Pawz4me]

And going into debt/pulling help from grandparents/relatives, etc. I find these threads baffling.

I absolutely think we owe our children an education, and if not in $$, then in savvy and know-how in order to be able to navigate the world. What else are we leaving them? Specifically for scenarios like Seaquest and my kid who would not qualify for any aid due to parental income, it seems particularly cruel to cut them off. They can't help their parents' income, it's true, but that goes both ways.

 

Believe me when I say I understand. And agree.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

My question is..........how much? 

 

 

This question is unanswerable at large.  What one family values or can afford is not the same as another.  Within our own family, inidividual kids have required completely different levels of support and have goals that require completely different levels of education.  Our oldest needed a 4 yr degree. Our 2nd oldest needed disability support. Our 3rd only needed a 2 yr degree, but it was only offered in 1 location in the entire state and it was not where we lived.  Our 4th requires a PhD.  Our 5th is most likely going to need a masters at a minimum.  

 

FWIW, only our 2nd oldest's goals would have been served well by attending the local school. (He didn't succeed, though.  His disability ended up forcing us to withdraw him.)  None of the others would be where they are today if they had not gone away to schools that offered the programs/level of academics they wanted.   

 

College is a complicated issue.  There is not a simple answer that fits all scenarios.  Not even within 1 family.

[Gwen in VA]

And ultimately as parents we end up making decisions that we'd rather not make.....

 

Our #3 dropped out of college. Ultimately we are glad he did -- he is in a good place career-wise and certainly doesn't need the diploma to persuade the world that he is worthy, but it was a tough road for a bit. What are we willing to pay for as parents? We paid for other miscellaneous expenses for our kids while they were in college -- are we willing to pay for miscellaneous expenses for the drop-out? (No! -- but we understand why others might!)  And what about our child with a serious medical condition -- we have told her that as long as we have breath in our bodies, if she can't afford the medication and supplies she needs to live, she should call us. Period. Is that fair to the others?

 

Parenting isn't for sissies -- and sometimes we require the wisdom of Solomon to decide who gets what financial benefits and what is "fair". (BTW, our kid with health issues got a cell phone at age 12 and none of the others did, but we pointed out that dd2 would gladly exchange the cell phone (which she had for medical reasons) for a healthy pancreas. The other kids didn't complain about her having the cell phone after that comment!)

 

Parenting requires love and wisdom and ultimately all we can do is our best. Most of the time our kids understand, and sometimes they don't!

[frogger]

Nm

 

I need to learn to avoid threads filled with snobbery because some conversations are a waste of time.

Edited September 26, 2017 by frogger

[creekland]

Parents have been paying for their kids' college/university educations for centuries.

 

It has always been those who have valued education and who could come up with the cost who have had educated kids.  I'm not really sure that has changed or will change much except now there are more scholarships out there to try to assist those who can't pay, and of course, there are loans.

 

As the difference between socio-economic classes increases and competition for jobs becomes more fierce (leading to more degrees being necessary than ever before), I think more parents want to see their offspring have the best chance to "make it."  This doesn't always include college, of course, but in today's day it seems to take more planning than before.  There aren't that many decent paying unskilled labor jobs out there.

[chiguirre]

 Students have actually sued their parents in court for payment. 

 

The two cases that made national news were both divorce settlements that had provisions for college expenses that the parent sued wasn't honoring. In one of them, the grandparents (parents of the dead-beat) were the ones who hired the lawyer. The headlines are eye-catching but the stories weren't anywhere near as scandalous as they first appeared.

[frogger]

It has always been those who have valued education and who could come up with the cost who have had educated kids.  

 

 

 

Maybe brush up on your fallacies Creekland. 

 

 

 

My mother was the person who inspired me to homeschool. It was NOT because that without much of a high school education much less a diploma and with four kids and being widowed due to a car crash she managed  to somehow graduate from college with great grades and then get into medical school the very next year and finish medical school, between sewing our clothes, tending our wounds, and working at the college  by first cleaning bathrooms and empty dorm rooms then in a laboratory and as a T.A.

 

No, that is not why she inspired me to homeschool.

 

She inspired me because she learned just to learn when she wasn't in school. She could walk along with me and tell me all the plants and what was edible and what not to touch. She could explain the Aurora as we watched it or why the cake batter flew to the sides of the bowl while we mixed it. We read great literature together and poetry. I can still remember the way my Grandmother could recite poetry with flair that she had memorized. We would discuss history and she told me of her favorite biographies. I would dance around to my Aunt's classical music and look through her poetry books, especially ones that had my Aunt's poetry in it because as a kid that is exciting.  To think most of these people would be uneducated in your mind throws me for a loop. Sure my Grandpa didn't get to high school but he helped a grandchild with Algebra. 

 

Yes, when my mother was in medical school it was tough. Yes, we had less story time and more just being in the same room time. I would look at her medical books and learn the names of the skeletal system or the reproductive system while she studied. She might get me started or help me with some names. When I couldn't be dropped off at kindergarten because I had the chicken pox I went to  Medical school instead. I can't say I learned much but the professor liked me and said I could come back anytime. Mostly I remember Mr. Bones, the skeleton at the front. I know I went to more classes with her but they weren't as memorable as the one with the skeleton. :)

 

  I knew I wanted to homeschool because she valued education. Real education. Not some fill in the bubble crap.  Not so she could look good and score the best score or have a diploma from the most prestigious university but because it was interesting and because it was useful and because you could gain new insights into people and places.   That is what I wanted for my kids. I wanted a real education for them. 

 

So don't give me this crap about the fact that if a person values education they will pay some big bill at an institution for them. I call bull on that. Asking me to be responsible for something didn't hurt me but part of that was because she gave me a strong start. I realize not everyone receives that and I understand that some people might be resentful with their particular circumstances. I can understand that everyone's situation is different even if you can't. 

 

 

 

 

. You may have meant an insult but typing these memories did me good. I wanted to just call you a snob and sign off but the memories themselves  were such a good reminder of what I really want for my kids. Not stressing about some stupid test because I can't plop down $30K a year or whatever. Those principles served her well and my siblings and me and most of my cousins; they will help my kids too. So perhaps I should thank you. 

Thanks for insulting my parents and making me take a trip down memory lane. 

 

Now I will sign off from this land of test scores, curriculum, and rigor so I can remember why I started homeschooling in the first place and focus on giving my kids a real education. 

[Sneezyone]

I didn't read what you did in Creekland's post at all. There was no disparagement of home as a venue/vehicle for instilling that love of learning. Your family clearly valued education and instilled a love of learning. Clearly, someone in your family found the means to pay for education because medical school isn't free. I think you're reading way more into it than what was on the screen.

[8filltheheart]

Nm

 

I need to learn to avoid threads filled with snobbery because some conversations are a waste of time...

 

 

I knew I wanted to homeschool because she valued education. Real education. Not some fill in the bubble crap. Not so she could look good and score the best score or have a diploma from the most prestigious university but because it was interesting and because it was useful and because you could gain new insights into people and places. That is what I wanted for my kids. I wanted a real education for them....

 

reminder of what I really want for my kids. Not stressing about some stupid test because I can't plop down $30K a year or whatever.

 

 

I am not sure where you are reading snobbery in this thread. It isn't snobbery to state fact. The way FA works in this country means that kids are directly connected to their parent's income until age 24, married, or provide over 50% of support for a dependent.

 

Parents are within their rights to not pay for college, but parents should be aware of what that means. If parental income is above Pell threshold, at many schools, $5500/yr in federal loans will be the only $$ students will qualify for. Other than a CC, I don't know any place a student can attend for $2750/semester including books, transportation, etc.

 

If the students are top students, those bubble tests can make all the difference in the world for kids with limited financial options. Again, that isn't snobbery. It is fact. NMF can equate to huge scholarships. Top ACT/SAT scores can lead to large scholarships. Those very scholarships can pay the bill that parents can't or won't.

 

Fwiw, it doesn't take focusing on bubble tests for kids to do well. We spend very, very little time on test prep. We don't focus on replicating ps courses and AP boxes. We focus on learning. Being competitive students for scholarships and homeschooling to educate in a different way are not mutually exclusive.

 

But test scores are going to matter as a homeschoolers. That is simple fact.

Edited September 26, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Pawz4me]

Frogger, your mother sounds like a truly wonderful person.

 

But . . . I think your story about her has little to do with the discussion here.

 

We're discussing kids. In terms of the federal aid (or lack thereof) being discussed that means those under 24 or who aren't exempt for other reasons (and I believe only a very, very small percentage are). Our system is set up nowadays such that how much they pay for college is tied to their parents' income and assets. Right or wrong, it is what it is. Your mother's situation may have pre-dated the current system. In any event it wouldn't likely have applied to her, as by already having dependent children herself she would have been exempt from being effectively "punished" for having high income/assets parents. Tie in how much college COA has increased in the past few decades and I suspect it's not out of the realm of possibility that (if adjusted for inflation) she may have paid considerably less for her entire education than the under 24/not exempt from FAFSA rules children of high income parents nowadays would have to pay for just an undergraduate degree.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Pawz4me

[madteaparty]

Maybe brush up on your fallacies Creekland.

 

 

 

My mother was the person who inspired me to homeschool. It was NOT because that without much of a high school education much less a diploma and with four kids and being widowed due to a car crash she managed to somehow graduate from college with great grades and then get into medical school the very next year and finish medical school, between sewing our clothes, tending our wounds, and working at the college by first cleaning bathrooms and empty dorm rooms then in a laboratory and as a T.A.

 

No, that is not why she inspired me to homeschool.

 

She inspired me because she learned just to learn when she wasn't in school. She could walk along with me and tell me all the plants and what was edible and what not to touch. She could explain the Aurora as we watched it or why the cake batter flew to the sides of the bowl while we mixed it. We read great literature together and poetry. I can still remember the way my Grandmother could recite poetry with flair that she had memorized. We would discuss history and she told me of her favorite biographies. I would dance around to my Aunt's classical music and look through her poetry books, especially ones that had my Aunt's poetry in it because as a kid that is exciting. To think most of these people would be uneducated in your mind throws me for a loop. Sure my Grandpa didn't get to high school but he helped a grandchild with Algebra.

 

Yes, when my mother was in medical school it was tough. Yes, we had less story time and more just being in the same room time. I would look at her medical books and learn the names of the skeletal system or the reproductive system while she studied. She might get me started or help me with some names. When I couldn't be dropped off at kindergarten because I had the chicken pox I went to Medical school instead. I can't say I learned much but the professor liked me and said I could come back anytime. Mostly I remember Mr. Bones, the skeleton at the front. I know I went to more classes with her but they weren't as memorable as the one with the skeleton. :)

 

I knew I wanted to homeschool because she valued education. Real education. Not some fill in the bubble crap. Not so she could look good and score the best score or have a diploma from the most prestigious university but because it was interesting and because it was useful and because you could gain new insights into people and places. That is what I wanted for my kids. I wanted a real education for them.

 

So don't give me this crap about the fact that if a person values education they will pay some big bill at an institution for them. I call bull on that. Asking me to be responsible for something didn't hurt me but part of that was because she gave me a strong start. I realize not everyone receives that and I understand that some people might be resentful with their particular circumstances. I can understand that everyone's situation is different even if you can't.

 

 

 

 

. You may have meant an insult but typing these memories did me good. I wanted to just call you a snob and sign off but the memories themselves were such a good reminder of what I really want for my kids. Not stressing about some stupid test because I can't plop down $30K a year or whatever. Those principles served her well and my siblings and me and most of my cousins; they will help my kids too. So perhaps I should thank you.

Thanks for insulting my parents and making me take a trip down memory lane.

 

Now I will sign off from this land of test scores, curriculum, and rigor so I can remember why I started homeschooling in the first place and focus on giving my kids a real education.

Creekland is not talking about you. No one is. Methinks you protest a wee bit much.

Every last person in this thread is talking about themselves and their view and their own kids. How I view the world is not an insult to how you view yours.

Edited September 26, 2017 by madteaparty

[creekland]

You may have meant an insult  

 

Frogger, I'm so sorry you took my post the way you did - honestly sorry - not facetious.  It was in no way, fashion, or form meant to be an insult or to be read the way you took it.  I was merely going off the history of the post I quoted and reasoning along to where we are today - continuing the line in the thread that "what used to be" is not "what can be" now - except for those with enough wealth.

 

I also want to "define" a couple of words (as I'll use them) just so we're on the same page - something in conversation that could be cleared up quickly, but with written word is more difficult:

 

Education = diploma or certificate proving learning (even if homeschooled since most of us give our kids diplomas or grades, etc)

 

Knowledge = information passed down through generations or via friends, books, media, etc

 

One can have an education, but be lacking knowledge (the education is supposed to mean the knowledge is there, but this is the real world...and that doesn't always happen).

 

One can have knowledge without education (my boys know a reasonable amount about engineering due to their dad, but in no place in the First World would their knowledge be accepted as legal).

 

Throughout history and now those who have valued education and been able to pay have had educated kids.  They may have paid tutors, sent them to school, or whatever.  It was something they thought/think was/is important and they were/are able to pay for it.  Nothing has changed with this.  I don't think it ever will.  The majority of the wealthy (but not all) value education.  The only year I saw stats for the ritzy private school I spent my 10th grade year at (on scholarship), 98/100 of the senior class were going on to 4 year colleges (state or private).  One young lass was training for an Olympic team.  One young lad was going directly into his dad's business.  Those last two did not feel getting more education (at least at that time) was worth it.  It in no way means their choices were wrong! It's just what they chose to "buy" based upon their situation at the time.  I suspect both did just fine in life.  Having money and family connections helps.  That's life.

 

But most of us (throughout history) are not wealthy.  In the old days an education was out of the question due to finances.  None of my grandparents went to college.  Three of the four didn't finish high school.  My grandmother went to work in a restaurant washing dishes after 4th grade - not by (her) desire, but because her dad decided their family needed the money (they got it, she didn't) more than she needed an education.  She did what she could to increase her knowledge throughout her life, but that doesn't change the fact that if she were alive today and wanted a job that required a minimum of a high school diploma that she would get hired.  She ended up being a hairdresser (learned by being an apprentice and not any beauty school).

 

In the old days being an apprentice was good enough to get the "education."  It's not in many jobs now.  One needs a piece or two of paper.  My husband can't convey the title of engineer on any of my boys.  A doctor can't do it for their kids.  Even those in our area heading into the electrical union (often carrying on the family tradition) have to take a tech ed course first to get their piece of paper.

 

In modern history (today), many non-skilled jobs have disappeared and many of those left don't pay much.  Costs have risen.  Most parents want their offspring to succeed.  If they have a business or farm their kids can take over, they could very well be like the lad from my youth who went straight to work after high school, but many aren't in that position.  Parents need to look at what they can do for their kids (individuals) using specific knowledge of their situation and stats to get "best guess odds" to decide their course.  Fortunately, in the modern era there are options that include scholarships (awesome) and loans (iffy) to try to assist with getting that success.  I also agree with a pp that if one is headed toward college, it is FAR more worth it for many kids to do test prep (esp after a solid foundation) to qualify for scholarships over any summer job.  My kids got far more in merit aid than any summer or school year job would have paid them, but that's a rabbit trail to what I was trying to say in my pp just reflecting on the "now" vs "then."

 

Others have mentioned other options like the military, states that offer free or reduced DE, etc.

 

In my mind, the only ones I would disdain (meaning I suppose they see me as a snob) are those who don't help their kids (guidance counts!).  I see the offspring of some of those parents at the high school I work.  I doubt there are ANY on the Hive.  Parents like I'm talking about would never have interest in a education homeschooling board.

 

If I had won the mega lottery a few weeks back, a good part of my share of the $$ would have been setting up more scholarships to try to help more kids/parents who wanted it to be able to afford colleges or trade schools - post high school education of some sort.  There are some who "make it" without something though they usually have connections or a super high IQ.  There just aren't many.  There are far more who "could have" with assistance (from parents or elsewhere) but can't without.  My heart goes out to them.

[Guest]

It has always been those who have valued education and who could come up with the cost who have had educated kids.  I'm not really sure that has changed or will change much except now there are more scholarships out there to try to assist those who can't pay, and of course, there are loans.

 

 

I am not seeing more scholarships for middle class students; almost all the dc I know who struggle have middle class parents eligible for or already retired and receiving a pension that includes medical care.  They simply chose not to provide for their dc's college expenses, even though they know the state (we the people) no longer subsidizes state college for their income bracket. The state expects the parents to set aside that portion, and the parents chose not to.  Some of these kids have been working since 14, starting with peddling goods at school, then off to fast food, and retail.  They can't make enough to pay tuition without going into the military or doing illegal things.  Votech slots are almost nonexistant now that Common Core is here, and they can't get a union card.  The math just doesn't work for college or votech after college. And its not like the parents have the dc's back; the dc is usually kicked out at 18.  The dc aren't needed because the pension w/medical is there. The dc is a liability, not an asset.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[SeaConquest]

Frogger,

 

I had a grandfather who was a plumber, an alcoholic, and one of the most educated men I have ever met. Any time I saw him, he was laying on the floor of his house (arthritic back, that I inherited) with a huge stack of library books by his side. He had no formal education, but his love of learning and a free library card made him an incredible autodidact. He was a fabulous conversationalist (when sober), and taught me a great deal about lifelong learning and the value of education (in its many forms).

 

My parents, on the other hand, are wealthy people. But, education has never been something that they really valued -- at least, not beyond its ability to land you a good paying job. My mother especially is an incredibly hard worker; she has succeeded in an area of business where few women have, and I wish that I had a quarter of her grit. But, she seldom reads, and our conversations are largely superficial, mostly limited by her shallow education. I love her, of course, but she never quite understood or appreciated my passion for learning. It's just not something she values in the way that her father did, and, sadly, I am not sure that it ever will be.

 

Gently, I don't think anyone on this thread is conflating 'valuing an education' or 'being educated' in the way that you think.

Edited September 26, 2017 by SeaConquest

[creekland]

I am not seeing more scholarships for middle class students; 

 

For need-based it is rare and limited.  That's what most folks on this thread have been talking about with "it is tough to do, if not impossible, esp for more average students."  Being able to meet one's EFC is helpful.  When one can't (or won't) or the student only gets into schools where meeting an EFC isn't enough it is very tough.

 

For merit aid there is some, but one has to be fairly high achieving and know where to look, then get lucky.

 

I think it would be super helpful if there were more available.  Since there isn't, it helps that folks are willing to share what they've learned/done so others can glean if the info is helpful for their situation.

[goldberry]

For merit aid there is some, but one has to be fairly high achieving and know where to look, then get lucky.

 

Plus be willing to go where the aid is.  I just had coffee with a friend whose son is amazing, national merit scholar, etc.  He *really* wanted to stay in state.  Nope, not happening.  He just will not get the aid here.  He's applying to several schools all out-of-state.