Do's and don'ts, loves and hates, regarding kitchens... and kitchen sinks, counters etc.?

[Pen]

My husband is a master plumber and we own a plumbing company.  I can give you a little advice based on our experience.  First, go with a faucet where you can change handle and faucet styles without changing out the entire faucet.  Delta brand is great as they have the body or "guts" the same and, if you have any issue, it is easy to change out a single piece without having to get a completely new faucet each time there is an issue.  I would suggest you look at the Leland style as it is a single lever at the base of the faucet.  It also has a pull down head with various sprayer options and the head retracts and locks in place magnetically.  It is a higher faucet which makes it nicer to put deeper items under.  There are a variety of sink options out there but we have found that Kohler tends to hold up better under hard water.  I can give you advice on various plumbing related issues, just let me know what you are having issues with.

 

I'm planning to take you up on this offer!!!  I think I have decided to go for a change to a single larger stainless steel sink basin rather than 2 smaller compartments. Though what is now there and has held up for the last 80 years or so is cast iron.  Would stainless steel be a bad choice with hard, and also specifically salty water?  Plumber said another option could be a ceramic one. I'd like something very easy to clean, and that would not tend to break, but don't want it to wear away soon due to our water. 

 

Having something hold up better is very important to me. I'd rather not have to redo things, especially since the sink in our house does go below the counter and so changing the sink means having to remove the counter also.

 

 

Handle dirty dishes? In our house, when someone is finished with a dish it goes straight into the dishwasher. So, the only person handling the dirty dish is the one who dirtied it. 

 

Ds (11) is tasked with emptying the clean dishwasher. It takes him about 2 minutes. 

 

 

It IS a timesaver. I can load all of our dinner dishes in 5 minutes. I know this because I steep my tea for 5 minutes and I'm finished with the dishes by then. I cannot hand wash them and get them out of the sink and off the counters in 5 minutes. I do not count run time in this equation. If dishes are out of sight and the kitchen looks clean, I am happy. Also, I'm a person who CANNOT own a countertop dish drainer because mi always toss something in it and I font want to see that every day :-/

 

I unload in the morning while steeping tea :-) Five minutes.

 

 

Sarah, and KFP (or anyone else to whom this also applies),  Could you please describe any details, such as arrangement of d/w compared to sink and cupboards (for dishes and for d/w detergent), methods used, brands of d/w, etc. that allows the 2 or 5 minute d/w active involvement time.

 

I take it you both have d/w that can get pots and pans clean?

 

I am thinking that due to graywater system we probably need to get as much off plates into dog dish, compost or garbage before loading d/w--or having each person put own plates etc. into it.  And possibly an overnight soak in hot soapy water would still help prior to loading in AM rather than loading in PM. I am thinking even if each person eating puts his/her own plate in, there will still be pots, pans, glass storage containers for leftovers, etc. to get in and cleaned.

[creekland]

All I can add to this thread is that when we're looking at houses (or condos or whatever) to buy, if it doesn't have a dishwasher and a nice double sink, we ax it from our list.  I can't stand single sinks (rented one of those on our travels once - won't purposely do that again) and I like having a machine wash the dishes for me.  The vast majority of machines do it quite well now (assuming no blocked water spouts, etc) with no rinsing necessary and they use less water plus provide the convenience of knowing the dishes are sanitized (via temp).

 

Anything else hubby and I are flexible on.  Those two are dealbreakers (though if the view and price are good enough we'll still rent for up to a month - just not buy unless the price is low enough for a remodel).

 

I'd only pay attention to future buyers if I thought I were going to sell though.  If not, I'd get what I liked and not worry about resale value.

[Bluegoat]

Ok, well that sounds really neat especially if you live in the climate to make it work for many things.  I wouldn't want to lose that just to add a refrigerator to the same room.  But if you could put it in the porch nearby that would be good.

 

Someone mentioned cheese not needing to be refrigerator.  Well, I know it doesn't spoil but it gets really gross in a hot OK summer if not refrigerator.

 

Ideally cheese should be in a cool place, but not a refrigerator.  They keep it too cold, but mostly they are too dry.

Edited September 19, 2017 by Bluegoat

[creekland]

Sarah, and KFP (or anyone else to whom this also applies),  Could you please describe any details, such as arrangement of d/w compared to sink and cupboards (for dishes and for d/w detergent), methods used, brands of d/w, etc. that allows the 2 or 5 minute d/w active involvement time.

 

I take it you both have d/w that can get pots and pans clean?

 

I am thinking that due to graywater system we probably need to get as much off plates into dog dish, compost or garbage before loading d/w--or having each person put own plates etc. into it.  And possibly an overnight soak in hot soapy water would still help prior to loading in AM rather than loading in PM. I am thinking even if each person eating puts his/her own plate in, there will still be pots, pans, glass storage containers for leftovers, etc. to get in and cleaned.

 

All we do prior to loading dishes is get any large item off (leftovers, essentially) and put it in our chicken or compost bucket.  We don't rinse, prewash, soak or anything of the sort - even for pots and pans.  It's rare that things aren't clean.

 

We use Finish Quantum Max pods.   They work very, very well.

[Pen]

Ok, well that sounds really neat especially if you live in the climate to make it work for many things.  I wouldn't want to lose that just to add a refrigerator to the same room.  But if you could put it in the porch nearby that would be good.

 

Someone mentioned cheese not needing to be refrigerator.  Well, I know it doesn't spoil but it gets really gross in a hot OK summer if not refrigerator.

 

 

We keep our cheese in fridge too because we prefer it to be quite cold and hard, not soft (unless it is in grilled cheese or quesadilla or some such).

 

I won't be getting rid of the cooler cupboard.  

 

Either full size fridge could go onto porch if closed in and made right for that.  

 

Or an under counter size fridge, would go opposite side from the cooler c., making an L shape from current single long counter area .   I'd loose one other deep, narrow cupboard (identical to the cooler c., but not vented) that now has things like rolls of foil, paper towels, baking soda, etc. in it.  And three  to 6 under counter drawers, depending on depth of the fridge.  I'd also lose a symmetric look of current cabinet set up, but I am not sure that is all that important as compared to functionality.

 

I need to come up with some actual dimensions and see what would fit and maybe put cardboard boxes or something to see what it would be like to have things coming into room that far in that area.  

 

Could turn out that door to dining room is then hard to get to, in which case the short under counter fridge idea won't work.

 

 Or, wait, maybe it would if it went in under current counter with an extension out to accommodate greater depth. Sort of like d/w would do.  Could be undercounter small fridge to one side of sink, undercounter small d/w to other side. A lot of drawers would be lost, but symmetry would be retained.

 

I guess I need to think about what is now where and where it could then go under different change possibilities.

 

For example, where a d/w would be likely to go, now stores the hoses and wands to central vacuum (once was a pull out flour bin). And useful smallish tools like hammers, screwdriver, pliers, plus a selection of nails, screws, and so on (once was a utensils drawer).

 

How do you plan out changes if you have made house alterations?

[Pen]

All I can add to this thread is that when we're looking at houses (or condos or whatever) to buy, if it doesn't have a dishwasher and a nice double sink, we ax it from our list.  I can't stand single sinks (rented one of those on our travels once - won't purposely do that again) and I like having a machine wash the dishes for me.  The vast majority of machines do it quite well now (assuming no blocked water spouts, etc) with no rinsing necessary and they use less water plus provide the convenience of knowing the dishes are sanitized (via temp).

 

Anything else hubby and I are flexible on.  Those two are dealbreakers (though if the view and price are good enough we'll still rent for up to a month - just not buy unless the price is low enough for a remodel).

 

I'd only pay attention to future buyers if I thought I were going to sell though.  If not, I'd get what I liked and not worry about resale value.

 

 

The idea of a single large sink that could hold large items--and that could still have a dish pan or something if needing a separate bin-- sounded good to me. But I've been used to a double sink.

 

What about single sinks do you hate / why do you strongly prefer double?

 

I'm not thinking toward potential buyers, but my own satisfaction with the sink.

[creekland]

The idea of a single large sink that could hold large items--and that could still have a dish pan or something if needing a separate bin-- sounded good to me. But I've been used to a double sink.

 

What about single sinks do you hate / why do you strongly prefer double?

 

I'm not thinking toward potential buyers, but my own satisfaction with the sink.

 

My family (all of us - from my parents to my kids) just really like having two sinks that we can use separately.  When I blanche and freeze veggies, I can use one for washing and another for cooling - with no splashing over.  We often leave dirty dishes from the day in a sink before putting them into the dishwasher.  One sink is free still - for whatever use we want.  I can wash hands without worrying what's in the other sink.  Right now I have apples and pears from our trees in one sink just sitting there waiting for me to do "whatever" with them.  They are next to some washed out yogurt cups that are drying before being tossed.  I plan to cook pasta tonight - no problem draining it on the other side, etc.

 

When we've had extra bins to put inside a sink, they've never stopped splashover (they're too low) and they are cumbersome to put elsewhere - or - if one wants to leave them in the sink, why not just have a double sink?  It saves cleaning around that extra bin.

 

Our neighbor has a large single sink.  It's so flat it doesn't drain well and that drives me bonkers too, so if you go that way, be sure yours at least drains!  There's nothing like washing out cat food cans then having to chase down all the small pieces forever.  But still, even to wash out the cans, we have to empty everything already in the sink (like, say, drying cans from before) to use water in the sink.  We don't have to do that with a double sink.

 

When I've had to wash dishes I end up having to use more water to rinse the dishes in the same sink.  With two double sinks I can keep rinsewater on one side - just like my cooling water when blanching veggies.  I use one side to soak greens in too - or beets.  It's a pain to have to clean them out every time someone wanted to rinse a glass or wash their hands.

 

I guess in short what I like is a "using" side and an "it can wait" side without the hassle of a bin or cleaning around it.  I'm all about "easy" in the kitchen.

 

I will say that some places we've rented have had two shallow sinks.  That doesn't work either and is probably the worst choice of all options since it's difficult to actually use shallow sinks.  I like two deeper sinks.

 

YMMV

[KungFuPanda]

I'm planning to take you up on this offer!!!  I think I have decided to go for a change to a single larger stainless steel sink basin rather than 2 smaller compartments. Though what is now there and has held up for the last 80 years or so is cast iron.  Would stainless steel be a bad choice with hard, and also specifically salty water?  Plumber said another option could be a ceramic one. I'd like something very easy to clean, and that would not tend to break, but don't want it to wear away soon due to our water. 

 

Having something hold up better is very important to me. I'd rather not have to redo things, especially since the sink in our house does go below the counter and so changing the sink means having to remove the counter also.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sarah, and KFP (or anyone else to whom this also applies),  Could you please describe any details, such as arrangement of d/w compared to sink and cupboards (for dishes and for d/w detergent), methods used, brands of d/w, etc. that allows the 2 or 5 minute d/w active involvement time.

 

I take it you both have d/w that can get pots and pans clean?

 

I am thinking that due to graywater system we probably need to get as much off plates into dog dish, compost or garbage before loading d/w--or having each person put own plates etc. into it.  And possibly an overnight soak in hot soapy water would still help prior to loading in AM rather than loading in PM. I am thinking even if each person eating puts his/her own plate in, there will still be pots, pans, glass storage containers for leftovers, etc. to get in and cleaned.

You're suggesting WAY too much work. I have a cheap (less than $400) Amana dishwasher. I don't leave pieces of food on plates, but I don't really rinse everything either. Usually I swipe the plate with the closest napkin or scrape with a spatula into the trash, then load into the dishwasher. I put pots, pans, and enameled cast iron into my dishwasher. I put a wooden spoon in my dishwasher. (Yes, I replace it every decade.) I don't put my wooden cutting board or Vitamix in there. Maybe once a week I end up with a fork or cup that didn't get clean, so I deal with it before putting it away. This is MUCH easier than taking extreme pre-cleaning measures with every dish every day.

 

My dishwasher is to the right of my sink. I'm right handed and this makes me happy. I arranged my cabinets so that the things that most fill a dishwasher (plates, cups, and bowls) can be put away without taking any steps away from the dishwasher. My utensils are one step away and I bring the dishwasher's utensil basket with me. Things I use less often are stored in less convenient cabinets. I empty the bottom rack first so that any water spilled from the bottom of mugs doesn't land on dry plates on the bottom rack. I use the Costco/Kirkland dishwasher pods and usually I forget that rinse aid exists, but I don't have hard water.

 

As for pots and pans. No dishwasher is going to remove crud that requires intense scrubbing for you to get off. Avoid dried on stuff my rinsing pots as you go. For baked on stuff, let it soak. I have a handled brush so I don't have to put my hands in soaking pots. If it's REALLY hard to remove, scrub with SOS pads or seal it in a bag with a splash of ammonia overnight.

 

My routine is to run the dishwasher at night and empty in the morning. This starts the day with an empty dishwasher and keeps my kitchen clean. Also, my dishwasher is cheap and sounds like a jet engine, so if I set it to start running at 4 a.m. then it don't have to listen to it while doing schoolwork.

[Pen]

You're suggesting WAY too much work. I have a cheap (less than $400) Amana dishwasher. I don't leave pieces of food on plates, but I don't really rinse everything either. Usually I swipe the plate with the closest napkin or scrape with a spatula into the trash, then load into the dishwasher. I put pots, pans, and enameled cast iron into my dishwasher. I put a wooden spoon in my dishwasher. (Yes, I replace it every decade.) I don't put my wooden cutting board or Vitamix in there. Maybe once a week I end up with a fork or cup that didn't get clean, so I deal with it before putting it away. This is MUCH easier than taking extreme pre-cleaning measures with every dish every day.

 

My dishwasher is to the right of my sink. I'm right handed and this makes me happy. I arranged my cabinets so that the things that most fill a dishwasher (plates, cups, and bowls) can be put away without taking any steps away from the dishwasher. My utensils are one step away and I bring the dishwasher's utensil basket with me. Things I use less often are stored in less convenient cabinets. I empty the bottom rack first so that any water spilled from the bottom of mugs doesn't land on dry plates on the bottom rack. I use the Costco/Kirkland dishwasher pods and usually I forget that rinse aid exists, but I don't have hard water.

 

As for pots and pans. No dishwasher is going to remove crud that requires intense scrubbing for you to get off. Avoid dried on stuff my rinsing pots as you go. For baked on stuff, let it soak. I have a handled brush so I don't have to put my hands in soaking pots. If it's REALLY hard to remove, scrub with SOS pads or seal it in a bag with a splash of ammonia overnight.

 

My routine is to run the dishwasher at night and empty in the morning. This starts the day with an empty dishwasher and keeps my kitchen clean. Also, my dishwasher is cheap and sounds like a jet engine, so if I set it to start running at 4 a.m. then it don't have to listen to it while doing schoolwork.

 

 

 

Thank you!!!  This may seem obvious to you, but all the details are tremendously helpful to me!

 

You can preset a start time?  I think I want your same d/w model if it would fit our space.  Maybe I would lose yet more drawers and make it fit.  This sounds like it would be a huge, huge help in our lives.

[KungFuPanda]

Thank you!!!  This may seem obvious to you, but all the details are tremendously helpful to me!

 

You can preset a start time?  I think I want your same d/w model if it would fit our space.  Maybe I would lose yet more drawers and make it fit.  This sounds like it would be a huge, huge help in our lives.

I can't preset an actual time. I can delay the start by 2, 4, or 6 hours. It's just a regular-sized dishwasher. Some days I run it twice.

[Nan in Mass]

Just check with someone about that greywater system. If you have to scrape, rinse, and possobly presoak before loading the dishwasher, it might not be much of a time saver. Or a yuck saver.

 

Nan

[Annie G]

Stainless steel can show hard water deposits so you might have to be more mindful of drying the sink so it doesn't show water spots. 

 

A stainless sink will not keep the water hot as long as a cast iron sink. Might not matter to you- it did to us because we keep our house at 60 during the winter and our kitchen was often a little colder than that. Sink was against outside wall so it wasn't long before we went back to a cast iron (enamel covered) sink. 

[SamanthaCarter]

DONT: ceramic tile floor. That is all.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Scarlett]

Thank you!!!  This may seem obvious to you, but all the details are tremendously helpful to me!

 

You can preset a start time?  I think I want your same d/w model if it would fit our space.  Maybe I would lose yet more drawers and make it fit.  This sounds like it would be a huge, huge help in our lives.

I agree with KFP, it is meant to be MUCH easier than what you described above.  A good dishwasher cleans EVERYTHING and rarely is there something that doesn't get quite clean.

[Scarlett]

I can't preset an actual time. I can delay the start by 2, 4, or 6 hours. It's just a regular-sized dishwasher. Some days I run it twice.

 

 

You set yours to start at 4:00 a.m.?  Doesn't it wake you up?

 

Noise is a big issue for me too.  I intend to have mine very well insulated and to buy a quiet one.

[Pen]

I started looking at D/W reviews, especially for 18" wide ones, and am finding some odd things, like one that is very highly rated, but does not turn itself off.  

 

Another  has a delay start, but only 4 hours max, and I am not sure that would help much.

 

Is only giving number of place settings a D/W can hold a standard way of indicating capacity, or, if no mention is made of things like pots, pans, etc., does that mean that all a machine can handle would be regular dishes?

[kathkath]

We have an 18" Bosch dishwasher with the third rack up top and it is the most amazing dishwasher we have ever had. Better than a previous 24" Bosch we had, go figure. Can fit so much in and put all silverware up top so don't use basket. Abslutely deep double sink. Deep enough for big pots and pans and cookie sheets to get clean. A single faucet you can pull down to spray dishes is awesome too. And yes fridge inside.

Edited September 20, 2017 by kathkath

[Pen]

We have an 18" Bosch dishwasher with the third rack up top and it is the most amazing dishwasher we have ever had. Better than a previous 24" Bosch we had, go figure. Can fit so much in and put all silverware up top so don't use basket. Abslutely deep double sink. Deep enough for big pots and pans and cookie sheets to get clean. A single faucet you can pull down to spray dishes is awesome too. And yes fridge inside.

 

 

Can you do any pots and pans in your 18" D/W rather than having to hand wash them in sink?

 

And could you tell me your amazing Bosch 18" model number so I can look for that?  

[StephanieZ]

Random note: Your vent can be routed under a cabinet, no problem. I have that in several places. They just create a vent right in the toe kick of your cabinet. Works just fine. :) 

 

[Familia]

Just a sink thought, I do not like faucets that pull out to be sprayers!  Love a sprayer, but it must be separate.  Otherwise, it seems that the flow of my work is interrupted or something.  Just a pain to have a faucet that comes apart IMO.  

Deep sink(s) and a tall faucet that reaches far out are non-negotiables. 

[magic]

Stainless steel is easy to clean but you could also go with a ceramic coated sink.  If you cook quite a bit and use large pots and pans, the pans may leave marks in the ceramic sink but the marks usually come off with a magic eraser.  Stainless steel does show hard water spots but can be easily wiped down to remove the spots.

[ktgrok]

YES YOU DO want the dishwasher.

 

Not that I'm being bossy about it.

 

BUT YOU REALLY, REALLY WANT IT.

 

Yeah, I mean, if you are the type that likes to wash and dry dishes all the time, fine, no. But a modern dishwasher can deal with bits of food, so no need to rinse most things. And never glasses or whatever. I just shove it all in there and then push the button to run it at the end of the day. Empty it in the morning while making breakfast. It absolutely is faster/easier than standing at the sink washing and then rinsing and then drying dishes. Not that I would dry them...when I don't have a dishwasher I let God dry them...aka drip dry. But then they are cluttering up my counter. Nope. 

[ktgrok]

I'm with Cat. Yes, yes you do want the dishwasher. And the fridge. And the one handle faucet with a sprayer. But with a sprayer you can leave like that, not one you have to hold to spray; that's annoying. The cupboard over the stove hides the microwave vent, the microwave plug, and the cookbooks.

right, the kind of sprayer that is integrated into the faucet not a separate one - that eliminates the issue of mold build up.

[Arctic Bunny]

right, the kind of sprayer that is integrated into the faucet not a separate one - that eliminates the issue of mold build up.

I wonder what was going on the day I wrote that. It makes almost no sense to me now!

 

Totally agree about it all being one piece. Just to clarify what I think *I* was saying....

 

Our faucet in this house has a sprayer on it, and once the faucet is on, you squeeze the end where the water comes out and it turns into a sprayer. But ours doesn't lock into "sprayer mode", you have to hold it. Our old house had it so it was either on stream or sprayer, so you could just leave it on spray while rinsing dishes, etc.

[Carol in Cal.]

Personally I would keep the cooler, keep the cast iron old sink or get a very similar one from a demolitian store (hello, this is the kind of 'vintage' look that every one is starting to imitate now, kind of like my trunk from the 1700s), not get rid of the chimney (because it's major surgery) but probably strip it if it's painted brick or stone, down to bare stone, and then figure out how to hang things on it.  

 

I'd put in a small under counter fridge so I could store milk, cream, and a day or two worth of veggies there, fridge only no freezer, because IME the freezers in dorm size fridges are not very effective but take up a lot of room, and plus they don't self-defrost which is a pain.  If your fridge were just outside the door in a screened in porch, I wouldn't bother with this, but in a SEPARATE outbuilding it would make a big convenience difference to have some refrigeration available in the actual house.  I say this because if you do have a covered porch just outside the kitchen door, I'd probably put the fridge out there.  That would be reasonably convenient, and also in the summer it would keep the (substantial) fridge heat out of the kitchen.  When I was a kid, we had a decent sized back porch and my dad rigged up a corrugated translucent plastic roof over it, and put the washer and dryer back there.  When it was really, really hot, my mom would bring her electric frying pan outside, put it on the dryer, and all the cooking heat and smells would stay outside.  That would have been a great place for a fridge.

 

I love coolers, glad you have one!

 

I am personally not a fan of sprayer/faucets.  I like those two functions to be separate.  Every combo that I have ever seen is a pain to use.  Also, again, if you have old gorgeous faucets, keep them, just add a sprayer elsewhere on your sink or backsplash.

 

I would not be without a dishwasher, personally.  I hate handwashing, and I think rinsing rather than handwashing is objectively easier and faster and much more pleasant.  What I would buy is a Miele if I could put a front panel on it that would coordinate with my other decor, or a high end Kitchen Aide otherwise.  I studied this extensively last year, and I am sure of these choices.  The Bosch has diagonal tines so you can't put a big deep bowl or pot into it, that's a no go for me.  Just be aware that the newest dishwashers' bottom rack is much closer to the floor than the older ones.  I'm not sure how I'm going to feel about this in my, say, 80s.  I ended up not needing to get a new dishwasher last year after all, but if I had, in the back of my head I would have been keeping an eye on improvements in the 'drawer' style ones to maybe switch to down the road.  In that case I would put in a hip high drawer, maybe with another one below it, maybe not the second one, in 10-15 years, that would facilitate ease of use.  I'd rather store seldom used things close to the floor than have to take out and put away dishes daily from there.

 

Re. counter space next to the stove--I had that problem in my first house, and I solved it by buying a stove that was half again as wide as the one I had, a vintage one at a garage sale.  It had a griddle in the middle that I mostly used like a food prep space.  I have seen in tiny house videos a set up with flip down big wooden cutting boards that fit over the stove, or over two burners, to use temporarily for food prep.  I find this kind of scary, but it's one way to deal well with space issues.  And the material doesn't have to be pure wood.  My inclination would be to use marble with a plastic or wood cutting layer on top, so that when it's flipped up behind the stove it would look like a nice backsplash.  In that case, because of the heavy weight, you would need a cranking system rather than a flip down one, but that would be easy to arrange.

 

We also got an old sewing machine stand, the foot crank kind, and put a butcher block top on it and put that next to the stove to increase that space, but ended up using it as a microwave stand.  If I were in that house now, I would get rid of the Big Honking Microwave and get a tiny one just for warming things like cups of coffee, and stick it at the back of a counter, freeing up the sewing machine stand.  We really only use microwaves regularly for that and occasionally for warming up a frozen dish, which is something that we have several other ways to do and don't do very often anyway.  (Actually, ideally I would buy a Boos end cut butcher block table, the real butcher shop kind, which you can have made to order in the size that you want.)

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Carol in Cal.

[Pen]

Just check with someone about that greywater system. If you have to scrape, rinse, and possobly presoak before loading the dishwasher, it might not be much of a time saver. Or a yuck saver.

 

Nan

 

 

Good idea! Did this, today.

 

Sounds like d/w will actually be better--use less total water and likely let  less muck go into greywater system than hand washing does.  Hope the person is correct about this.