Do's and don'ts, loves and hates, regarding kitchens... and kitchen sinks, counters etc.?

[Pen]

editing to try to achieve paragraph breaks. So frustrating today!

 

 

 

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I had a plumbing problem which may lead to getting a new sink, which may lead to getting some other new things. I'm trying to look on bright side and think about how much more wonderful things may be able to become instead of that it will be a costly hassle.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It is an old house. On well water, has septic, and also grey water systems. I don't want to lose the old charm and quaintness the house has, but would like it more easily livable.

 

 

 

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Probably a new sink will be part of what changes.

It does not absolutely need new faucets, but could get them.

 

------------------Maybe even an automated dishwasher (instead of by hand in sink).

 

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Maybe even an indoor refrigerator (how exciting).

 

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And maybe some cupboard changes...

 

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For the sink, for example, I could choose materials (I am thinking stainless steel?), and whether I want a single big sink area or 2 or 3 basins (current one has 2 smallish basins).

 

I do not particularly dislike the current faucets and though they are around 80yrs old seem to be in excellent shape. But if I got new, I think I'd want the type that can be operated with just one hand, whereas the existing have separate hot and cold. Also, the sprayer things some people have look intriguing, but maybe they are more trouble than they are worth.

 

 

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There is only easily room enough for an 18" dishwasher and counter would have to be made deeper (which part I am told would be fairly easy to add some depth where I might want it), or another counter area added to be able to put one. There is not enough room for an island.

 

 

 

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An indoor refrigerator would either have to be very small, like only up to counter height, or a more major remodel would be needed.

 

Most of the time I do not mind the fridge being outside, and I like the quieter house without constant refrigerator humm. But in very cold, very wet, or very smokey weather, inside would be nice, also if tired or not feeling well, and probably as I am not getting any younger.

 

 

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At present there is not enough room for any counter to the sides of stove, though that would be nice to have. To do it, an unused chimney for a once upon a time wood burning cook stove would have to come out. But I am not sure if that would be an awful lot of work for only about 1.5-2' of counter. And annoyingly the forced air heat register lies just in front of the old chimney so unless that were changed, the counter's depth would be limited, or it would have to have a very, very deep toe-kick space.  Still, a place to set things right by the stove would be nice. OTOH I can now use a rolling Elfa style cart and move it there when cooking or elsewhere when elsewhere is better. And maybe that is actually just as good or better over all.

 

 

 

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There is room for cupboards above stove though, I'm not sure how practical it is to reach up there or whether things falling onto a ceramic stove top would be a problem, either from pov of breaking stove or otherwise. Still, at present there is no place easily with enough depth for things like muffin pans, rolling pins, and cookie sheets, and above stove could have that sort of depth.

 

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A much more major overhaul could do something like close in some of porch for added space.

 

 

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Thus does a little leak turn into a major project perhaps.

 

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What is good and bad? Worthwhile and not?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Pen

[Catwoman]

I would not want to live in a house without a dishwasher or an indoor refrigerator.

 

I would want the biggest and deepest single-basin sink I could fit, and I really like my faucet with the pull-out spray gun thingie.

 

I would rather have a range hood than cabinets over the stove, but you could also get a combination microwave/hood thing to put up there. The exhaust fans don't work as well as on a dedicated hood, but you get dual purpose. You could also do the cabinets and a shallow hood underneath them.

[mellifera33]

If space is at a premium, I'd choose the small fridge over the dishwasher. I like having a double sink. I would not choose the sink I chose for my last house--one large deep basin and one small basin, with a stainless flat dish draining spot. That tiny basin was useless. :)

[kiwik]

I have a 3/4 size dishwasher and it is OK. A small fridge for stuff you use often would be nice (we had an inside fridge when I was a kid but it was about 10 m away in the sitting area off the dining room.

 

Cupboards over a ceramic hob don't sound like a good idea although a range hood does. I have only ever seen microwaves over hobs on HGTV so I assume they are the ones that combine microwave and venting?

Edited September 17, 2017 by kiwik

[Catwoman]

I have a 3/4 size dishwasher and it is OK. A small fridge for stuff you use often would be nice (we had an inside fridge when I was a kid but it was about 10 m away in the sitting area off the dining room.

 

Cupboards over a ceramic hob don't sound like a good idea although a range hood does. I have only ever seen microwaves over hobs on HGTV so I assume they are the ones that combine microwave and venting?

Yes, those are the ones. :)

[eternalsummer]

We rented a place that had a sink that was set sort of beneath the edge of the counter; I really liked it.  Easy to clean.  I like the kind of faucet that you can turn on with one hand, or your elbow, because that way you can wash your hands without having to get the faucet gunky.

 

I do not find that a dishwasher saves a ton of time, but I do like the smell of it and the warmth.  Also from what I understand it saves enough hot water to be cheaper than washing by hand.

[Carrie12345]

We've been looking at sinks.  I don't love the look of stainless steel, but I don't have to worry much about using harsh cleaning methods to prevent staining. With my slovenly children, that's important to me.

 

Without a dishwasher, 2 sections would be important to me. With a dishwasher, I'm happier with one big basin.

 

I love "elbow operable" faucets. I have big issues when it comes to food bacteria, so I don't want my raw meat hands touching anything!  I also love an integrated soap pump, but mine never seemed to work well after the first few weeks. I don't know what we did to it, and it only ever held original Dawn.

[Nan in Mass]

I have a funky kitchen, too. And I have lived in and still use my mother's big modern. In my experience:

 

Water sits in the sink sprayer hose and molds and smells.

 

A dishwasher is nice for storing dirty dishes if it isn't full of clean ones, but it stinks, is noisy, isn't the time saver it appears to be, and it is gross handling the dirty dishes to load it. If I am going to handle dirty dishes, I like doing it with hot soapy water. And I would hesitate to use one with a grey water system unless you rinsed the dishes first, in which case, you might as well wash them by hand.

 

A small inside fridge under the counter for milk would be noisy. And add to your fuel bill. Handy, though.

 

I have a horrible time getting my mother's one lever faucet adjusted, and if you leave it adjusted, you are running hot more than you need to. I love my two knob-one spiggot faucet. It has tabs that I can hit with my wrist when my hands are dirty.

 

I like my one big sink better than my mother's smaller double sink.

 

I would be happy with a cart for counter space.

 

If I were you, I would fix the counter/sink to be the right height for me and make the backsplash high and the seam between the sink and counter easy to clean.

 

Nan

[Pen]

Are inside fridges not the norm there?

They are the norm now.

 

At the time the house was built the area where it is had no electricity.

 

The kitchen does not have room in it for a regular sized refrigerator, and as it is now, even a little fridge would not really fit well anywhere without blocking a doorway or window, or something like that.

 

 It was built with 1) a basement that stays close to 50degF year round, which is where, I've been told, the daily milk from the cows went, as well as home canned foods from garden etc.; 2) a "cooler cupboard in the kitchen on the North shady side of house with a vent down low to  let in outside cool air (when air is cool) and at the top to vent out hotter air--except in winter it is nowhere near as cold as a modern refrigerator.  

 

When built, and much of the time since, the house would have been supplied by garden, chickens, and cow or goats, so as to not have as much need of refrigeration or freezing as in a modern American lifestyle.

 

I use the kitchen cooler cupboard to keep some things that should be coolish all the time, and also for things I don't want to go in and out for over and over, like a container of milk--that then needs to go out overnight, or in hot weather to have a blue ice pack with it if staying in during day.  

 

My guess is that prior owners since the days of electricity in this area have faced the same dilemma I face now which is to ask themselves is it better to redo things in some way for an indoor fridge with its benefits and also its problems, versus to use the cooler cupboard etc. as is.  

 

 

 

 

 

We rented a place that had a sink that was set sort of beneath the edge of the counter; I really liked it.  Easy to clean.  I like the kind of faucet that you can turn on with one hand, or your elbow, because that way you can wash your hands without having to get the faucet gunky.

 

I do not find that a dishwasher saves a ton of time, but I do like the smell of it and the warmth.  Also from what I understand it saves enough hot water to be cheaper than washing by hand.

 

Out current sink is inset under counter, and I do like that too.

 

I'm surprised about dishwashers not saving time, reported by several of you.

 

Maybe I don't want one after all.

 

 

 

[Catwoman]

YES YOU DO want the dishwasher.

 

Not that I'm being bossy about it.

 

BUT YOU REALLY, REALLY WANT IT.

[Arctic Bunny]

I'm with Cat. Yes, yes you do want the dishwasher. And the fridge. And the one handle faucet with a sprayer. But with a sprayer you can leave like that, not one you have to hold to spray; that's annoying. The cupboard over the stove hides the microwave vent, the microwave plug, and the cookbooks.

[fraidycat]

I personally prefer handwashing dishes vs. a dishwasher, so that would not be high on my priority list. All of my houses/apartments have had dishwashers that are just a waste of space for me, except as a drying rack for my clean handwashed dishes. I would use the space that "could" fit a small dishwasher for a small bar fridge instead for commonly used items.

 

The register for the heater can be extended up with an "elbow" in it to come out the front of the cabinet toe-kick if you were to add more cabinet space. The register does exactly that in my Mom's kitchen, directly below the sink cabinet. It blows warm or cool (a/c) air directly on the top of your feet and ankles when doing dishes. It's a great in the winter and summer if you need to warm up or cool down.

 

My only advice re: faucets/taps is that this is one area you do NOT want to "save money" on, if you decide to change them. Get the highest quality you can.

 

For a sink, I recommend two larger basins vs. one huge and one small.

[Pen]

I have a funky kitchen, too. And I have lived in and still use my mother's big modern. In my experience:

 

Water sits in the sink sprayer hose and molds and smells.

 

A dishwasher is nice for storing dirty dishes if it isn't full of clean ones, but it stinks, is noisy, isn't the time saver it appears to be, and it is gross handling the dirty dishes to load it. If I am going to handle dirty dishes, I like doing it with hot soapy water. And I would hesitate to use one with a grey water system unless you rinsed the dishes first, in which case, you might as well wash them by hand.

 

A small inside fridge under the counter for milk would be noisy. And add to your fuel bill. Handy, though.

 

...

 

 

 

Could you tell me more about stink issues.  I hate stink problems and we are in PNW where mold is an issue even on things that normally won't mold in drier climates.

 

Do some of you who like sprayer not have stink issues or have a way of stopping that?

 

Milk is not so much what I'd ideally like to have a refrigerator for in house.  The cooler cupboard is relatively okay for the milk.  More it is the left overs from dinner to make them easy to put away. And I believe that a refrigerator would make grabbing a quick snack of healthy things like vegetable and cheese easier than if they are outside in refrigerator.

 

YES YOU DO want the dishwasher.

 

Not that I'm being bossy about it.

 

BUT YOU REALLY, REALLY WANT IT.

 

Ok! I do!

I'm with Cat. Yes, yes you do want the dishwasher. And the fridge. And the one handle faucet with a sprayer. But with a sprayer you can leave like that, not one you have to hold to spray; that's annoying. The cupboard over the stove hides the microwave vent, the microwave plug, and the cookbooks.

 

I don't want a microwave.

 

But let's say I do want both d/w and refrigerator.  Say I want d/w to right of sink b/c I'm right handed (is that the way it should go?). Do I want a little refrigerator somewhere inside not too far away?  Or do I want part of back porch closed in for a kitchen extension where normal size refrigerator could go?  And at moment I have no idea on comparative costs of that sort of thing.  But I assume that closing in back porch and opening up a wall to it would be more involved in terms of construction and difficulties while it is done. But maybe long term very worth it.

 

Some former neighbors in a similar era house with similar era lack of modern conveniences did a bunch of remodeling prior to sale, and then said that they really regretted not having done it when they themselves could have the benefits of the new improved things.

 

 

I personally prefer handwashing dishes vs. a dishwasher, so that would not be high on my priority list. All of my houses/apartments have had dishwashers that are just a waste of space for me, except as a drying rack for my clean handwashed dishes. I would use the space that "could" fit a small dishwasher for a small bar fridge instead for commonly used items.

 

The register for the heater can be extended up with an "elbow" in it to come out the front of the cabinet toe-kick if you were to add more cabinet space. The register does exactly that in my Mom's kitchen, directly below the sink cabinet. It blows warm or cool (a/c) air directly on the top of your feet and ankles when doing dishes. It's a great in the winter and summer if you need to warm up or cool down.

 

My only advice re: faucets/taps is that this is one area you do NOT want to "save money" on, if you decide to change them. Get the highest quality you can.

 

For a sink, I recommend two larger basins vs. one huge and one small.

 

 

Why do you prefer hand washing dishes?  Ease of doing it? Or the way they turn out? Or?

 

How to extend heater register sounds like an excellent idea!

[Catwoman]

I have two huge refrigerators plus an additional large upright freezer and a separate beverage cooler in this house alone, so my vote will always be for a full-sized refrigerator. :D

 

I have never had any odor issue with my faucets, and we don't live in any of our houses full time, so there should be plenty of time for smells to develop. We have the sprayer thingies in all three kitchens plus more of them in the laundry rooms, and I'm pretty sure they are all different brands and styles. I am super-sensitive to any kind of smells, so I understand why that would be a concern for you, but I have never heard of a faucet or sprayer getting stinky.

 

The only way to tell which side of the sink is best for your dishwasher is to go to the store and stand next to one, open it up, and pretend you're loading it with dishes. One side will probably feel more natural to you. I'm left handed and one of our houses has the dishwasher on the left hand side of the sink and I don't like it as much as the ones in the other houses where they are on the right side of the sink. It could just be that every house I have lived in before this one had the dishwashers on the right side and that's what I'm used to, though. :)

Edited September 17, 2017 by Catwoman

[Lisa R.]

Whenever I hear people saying they don't like dishwashers or feel washing dishes by hand is easier, my guess is that they haven't had a good dishwasher.

 

Older dishwashers and current cheaper models don't wash very well. Dishwashers in apartments tend to be lower quality. If you buy a good one nowadays, they truly are much, much easier than washing by hand. They have rinse cycles that practically clean off really dirty plates before the washing cycle starts.

 

So, if you get a cheap one, it would be practically as easy to wash by hand. Pay a little more, and it is a big difference. It is so worth it to me and a total timesaver.

[Lanny]

RE: Cabinets   We had intended to have them installed in the Kitchen when we designed and built this home in 2003.  There was a huge cost overrun, which is not uncommon here in Colombia. A cousin in CA told me there it is common for a 10 or 20% cost overrun.

 

So, due to a lack of funds, when we moved in during March 2004, there were no Kitchen cabinets.

 

Why am I writing this to you? Because my wife had discovered, where we lived before this, that Kitchen cabinets and drawers did not get cleaned as often as they should have been cleaned and some of them were not as clean as she would have liked them to have been.  (read, very dirty...)

 

My wife discovered, that without Kitchen cabinets, the things were getting cleaned much more frequently, since they were in plain sight.  Out of sight, out of mind...

 

This is 2017 and we do not have cabinets in the Kitchen.

 

If you want an informal kitchen, this will work for you.  We have a big, informal house, with a big kitchen, and when people come to visit they really like how it is laid out. 

[KungFuPanda]

If you get a dishwasher, get the single large sink. You won't miss a separate sing if you're not washing by hand. If you DO miss a separate soaking area, a plastic basin solves the problem. It's truly wonderful to have a larger sink that you can get your big pans into.

 

I actually have a cheaper dishwasher and it does a great job, but I'm nursing this theory that having good water is the easy path to cleaner everything.

[fraidycat]

Why do you prefer hand washing dishes? Ease of doing it? Or the way they turn out? Or?

 

How to extend heater register sounds like an excellent idea!

Yes. Both. Lol

 

Unloading the dishwasher is just another chore to add "later".

 

Dishwashers wreck/twist/shrink many storage items. Even without using the heated drying cycle. Can't be used for delicate items, or many "good" or specialty items. Pots and pans get wrecked. Certain foods need to be rinsed very well prior to going in or the dishes remain dirty. If I'm going to have to handwash half my items anyway, I'd rather just get it over and done with all at once.

 

Dishwasher detergent etches glass so they always appear cloudy after long term dishwasher use, and cups and glasses take on a certain odor from the dishwasher that is unpleasant (to me) when drinking out of them. Like hot plastic - even in glass and ceramic items.

[eternalsummer]

I agree, we've only ever rented, so our dishwashers have never been the super great kind.  So you have to wash all of the food off of the dishes before you put it in the dishwasher, or the dishes don't come out clean.  If you're going to the work of getting all the food off, all the dishwasher does is soap and sanitize, which is great but not much of a time saver.

[eternalsummer]

We also don't want a microwave; the only time I miss having one is when I feel like buying one of those frozen TV dinners instead of cooking.

[happypamama]

I personally prefer a large single sink, whether or not I have a dishwasher.  A plastic basin works perfectly for soaking things, and that gives me plenty of flexibility.  We are overhauling our entire kitchen (pretty much gutting it) and so have been thinking about what we actually could use.  We actually went with a stainless 33" sink so we can lay even our longest cast iron griddle in it.  Haven't put it in yet, but I'm looking forward to it.  We picked out a faucet that has a pull-down sprayer, and I'm hoping it will be useful.  I do use the separate sprayer on my current sink pretty often to fill buckets and rinse cast iron.  I like an arched faucet so I have plenty of clearance space for larger items.

 

We have a cheapish dishwasher too, and it does a fine job, assuming we rinse the dishes a bit and keep the screens cleaned out.

 

Perhaps a small fridge for frequently-used items?

 

We're going with a combo microwave/fan over the stove.

 

As far as cabinets, if you can afford to swap a few of the storage cabinets for drawer cabinets, I personally find those helpful for storing some things.  Easier to put a few occasionally-used appliances in a drawer and pull it out rather than to move a bunch of appliances out of the way in a cabinet.  Assuming they are tall enough to hold the appliances, that is, but my kitchen in my previous house could hold multiple crockpots easily.

 

But it all depends on what YOU use and need.  One advantage to being in my current kitchen for ten years before renovation is that I have a good handle on knowing how I cook using *these* items and for *these* people, so as I have been cooking, I've pictured how I might use/store things in my new kitchen.  For instance, my stand mixer doesn't fit well under my current cabinets, so I made sure that the new ones accommodate the mixer.  I also know that I use my instant pots a ton, and right now, they're crammed into counter space with a lot of other things, so I made sure that we had a good spot in the new plans for the IPs, plus no cabinets directly above them because of the steam.  Ymmv of course.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I LOVE having a dishwasher.  I grew up without one so I do appreciate the difference.

 

I personally like to have a larger sink for larger pots.  In theory I like the two sink thing, but if each individual sink isn't very large they aren't very useful for washing large pots.  I have had various configurations and the worst was 2 tiny sinks where I couldn't fit even a smaller sheet pan or a spaghetti type pot in to wash anything.

 

When I chose the sink (only one time I had a choice) I went with cast iron.  I've had both (cast iron and stainless).  I like them both.  If I could have a redo, I might actually choose the stainless because it's quite a bit less expensive and I don't like the cast iron so much more to spend the money on it.  It's just something I grew up on, and I like how it looks.  Functionally speaking it's not easier/more difficult to deal with than stainless. 

[solascriptura]

I'm surprised that so many don't like dishwashers. I call it my maid. I was ok hand washing when it was just my dh and me. It would've been okay before I had kids that ate food. Now with a 6 person household that eats the vast majority of meals at home? No way. I would be spending an hour and a half a day washing and drying dishes. I've timed it before.

[Nan in Mass]

I just know that every house I have ever lived in had a certain moldy smell around the sink that came from water sitting in the sprayer hose.

 

I have lived with both a dishwasher and no dishwasher. I also have lived with a well and greywater "tank". I know modern dishwashers can take dishes that are just scraped. I would do a bit of research to make sure your well can support a dishwasher and that your greywater system will be ok with one. Don't just ask the guy who sells dishwashers. Might be fine or might not.

 

I eat half my meals at my mother's, where there is a dishwasher and usually between 3 and 6 people for dinner. I find that by the time I have scraped (and rinsed if need be) the dishes, I could have washed them almost as quickly and with less fuss and yuckiness. We leave our dishes to air dry at home so no wiping. Putting away the dishes takes the same amount of time both ways.

 

Other (minor) problems I have with dishwashers:

Glass becomes etched.

Can't put anything wooden in.

Glass and china make a squeak rather like nails on a chalkboard.

Raises the electric bill, even if you run before bed and leave the door ajar overnight to air dry.

Unless your plumbing is good, you can't shower while it is running.

Dirty dishes being put in splash you and mugs being taken out often splash you.

 

Nan

Edited September 17, 2017 by Nan in Mass

[Nan in Mass]

I have a shelf over the stove for mugs. Saves space, is convenient, and isn't a fire hazard or a burn yourself hazard.

Nan

[Liz CA]

I like a divided stainless steel sink

Dishwasher - yes

If possible, I also like pot racks. I used to have one in another house years ago and it saved a lot of space in cabinets. There are variety of designs. Here is just one option: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DY4S2YA/ref=s9_acsd_top_hd_bw_b1DOa_c_x_4_w?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-4&pf_rd_r=0KVHA765ENS6N5YRKX4T&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=44ee1c04-c62c-57cb-aa8b-9ea70433d884&pf_rd_i=289824

 

A narrow cabinet where you can store cookie sheets and cutting boards is nice if you have a little space left.

 

Two slide out garbage containers (sliding on a rack in and out of cabinet) are nice. The containers can be lifted out, emptied and cleaned easily.

 

I would prefer a freezer bottom, fridge top type refrigerator. Waiting for my old side by side to quit (but hopefully not this year :)) so I get something different. Just re-read some of your posts and realize fridge space is limited, so you may need / want something like this:  https://www.google.com/search?q=build+in+small+fridge&tbm=isch&imgil=0NuR-Nb19npgrM%253A%253Bmzj7HTs84OW6_M%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.pinterest.com%25252Fexplore%25252Fmini-fridge-decor%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=0NuR-Nb19npgrM%253A%252Cmzj7HTs84OW6_M%252C_&usg=__jJAkVigM2zSnY4ZSPGtTrbeV1mM%3D&biw=1350&bih=602&ved=0ahUKEwj8-43piK3WAhVL5GMKHQpcD_8QyjcI6wI&ei=Tty-WfycOcvIjwOKuL34Dw#imgrc=FYhsvea5geQfaM:

 

Magnetic strip (wall mounted) can hold all larger knives

Kitchen shelves that slide out - you don't have to crawl into the cabinet to find what you have stashed way back there

 

 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Liz CA

[Bluegoat]

I would get a dishwasher if possible.  I find them really helpful, though I know not everyone does.

 

Given you have the cool cupboard, I would not care so much about the fridge.. (Actually, I would give my eyeteeth for a proper cooling cupboard.  A refrigerator is actually too cold and dry to keep many items at their best.)

 

I probably would not bother with cupboards over the stove - I have found they are really only useful for things you don't use much.  

 

For sinks - my favourites have integral drainboards - I like the big old glazed cast iron ones.

[Catherine]

I got a large, deep stainless steel sink when we redid our kitchen and I LOVE it so much.  Turkey roasting pan can be easily washed, washing large bags of greens is easy, I fill it with soapy water to mop the floor.  Sprayer also, which I did not have before, is wonderful.  I don't know how I lived without my big big sink.  

[happypamama]

I just know that every house I have ever lived in had a certain moldy smell around the sink that came from water sitting in the sprayer hose.

 

I have lived with both a dishwasher and no dishwasher. I also have lived with a well and greywater "tank". I know modern dishwashers can take dishes that are just scraped. I would do a bit of research to make sure your well can support a dishwasher and that your greywater system will be ok with one. Don't just ask the guy who sells dishwashers. Might be fine or might not.

 

I eat half my meals at my mother's, where there is a dishwasher and usually between 3 and 6 people for dinner. I find that by the time I have scraped (and rinsed if need be) the dishes, I could have washed them almost as quickly and with less fuss and yuckiness. We leave our dishes to air dry at home so no wiping. Putting away the dishes takes the same amount of time both ways.

 

Other (minor) problems I have with dishwashers:

Glass becomes etched.

Can't put anything wooden in.

Glass and china make a squeak rather like nails on a chalkboard.

Raises the electric bill, even if you run before bed and leave the door ajar overnight to air dry.

Unless your plumbing is good, you can't shower while it is running.

Dirty dishes being put in splash you and mugs being taken out often splash you.

 

Nan

We have not had a problem with glass or china squeaking, nor with glass becoming etched.  We put wood stuff in it; the only drawback to that is that the handles get dried out and don't look as nice, but they've held up just fine.  We shower and/or do laundry while it's running all the time.  I don't know about the electric bill; I have a feeling that's a small drop in the bucket, but who knows?  Some mugs do splash if we aren't careful, so that is annoying.  I think what I like the dishwasher for the most is things that are dirty but that don't have to be rinsed.  I agree that if I've served spaghetti or something, and I have to rinse the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher (I'd have to dump/scrape them no matter what), I do wonder why I'm bothering.  But for stuff like forks used to eat breakfast, or cups that had milk in them, or plates that just have a couple of crumbs or a drop of something, the dishwasher really does save me time.  I don't need to hand wash 21 plates, 21 forks, etc. every day. :)  But as always, ymmv, and it's so important to find what YOU need.

[Renthead Mommy]

In 22 years we have lived in 9 houses, plus TLF while house hunting. 

 

When in TLF you only have 6 plates, cups, bowls, silverware and maybe three pots/pans.  Never enough to fill a dishwasher with only the three of us, so I always hand wash there.  The nicest thing about the dishwasher there is I use as a dish drainer while washing.  Did the same in a regular house with no electric for a week post hurricane.  So you may think you don't need it, it's nice to have for bigger loads, but it is SO much nicer to not have a dish drainer on the  counter taking up space.   Not saying you should buy it as a giant dish drainer, but it is nice to have it and use it to keep from sucking up counter space. 

 

Other things I learned over all the kitchens:  Pull out cupboard shelves are wonderful!  Worth the extra money.  Built in cutting boards and NOT worth the money.  They are large and wood and hard to clean.  Pop up appliance shelves are only worth it if you are short.  My KA mixer sat on one, but it was too low for me to work with it there, but my 5' 4" mother thought it was a great height.  Lastly I really liked the pull out knife drawer.  So much better than a knife block on the counter. BUT you have to be sure you have the type of knife that fits it correctly.  

 

This house has the drop in sink where the counter is higher than the sink and there is no side edge for crumbs to get caught in.  Another may have as well.  That is nice.  Most of the last houses have had the sprayer and faucet as all one piece and you flip it.  This house has the old fashion separate faucet and  sprayer, which I like a lot less.  I think garbage disposals are a waste and shouldn't be installed any longer.

[Dynamite5]

I have a funky kitchen, too. And I have lived in and still use my mother's big modern. In my experience:

 

Water sits in the sink sprayer hose and molds and smells.

 

A dishwasher is nice for storing dirty dishes if it isn't full of clean ones, but it stinks, is noisy, isn't the time saver it appears to be, and it is gross handling the dirty dishes to load it. If I am going to handle dirty dishes, I like doing it with hot soapy water. And I would hesitate to use one with a grey water system unless you rinsed the dishes first, in which case, you might as well wash them by hand.

 

A small inside fridge under the counter for milk would be noisy. And add to your fuel bill. Handy, though.

 

I have a horrible time getting my mother's one lever faucet adjusted, and if you leave it adjusted, you are running hot more than you need to. I love my two knob-one spiggot faucet. It has tabs that I can hit with my wrist when my hands are dirty.

 

I like my one big sink better than my mother's smaller double sink.

 

I would be happy with a cart for counter space.

 

If I were you, I would fix the counter/sink to be the right height for me and make the backsplash high and the seam between the sink and counter easy to clean.

 

Nan

Nan--

Would you humor me and link a faucet that is similar to yours? I cannot picture this in my head. We are building, so I'm all over wanting to know about what works well in kitchens!

Thanks!

[magic]

My husband is a master plumber and we own a plumbing company.  I can give you a little advice based on our experience.  First, go with a faucet where you can change handle and faucet styles without changing out the entire faucet.  Delta brand is great as they have the body or "guts" the same and, if you have any issue, it is easy to change out a single piece without having to get a completely new faucet each time there is an issue.  I would suggest you look at the Leland style as it is a single lever at the base of the faucet.  It also has a pull down head with various sprayer options and the head retracts and locks in place magnetically.  It is a higher faucet which makes it nicer to put deeper items under.  There are a variety of sink options out there but we have found that Kohler tends to hold up better under hard water.  I can give you advice on various plumbing related issues, just let me know what you are having issues with.

[Ellie]

YES YOU DO want the dishwasher.

 

Not that I'm being bossy about it.

 

BUT YOU REALLY, REALLY WANT IT.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I big pink puffy heart my dishwasher. :001_wub:

[Scarlett]

Whenever I hear people saying they don't like dishwashers or feel washing dishes by hand is easier, my guess is that they haven't had a good dishwasher.

 

Older dishwashers and current cheaper models don't wash very well. Dishwashers in apartments tend to be lower quality. If you buy a good one nowadays, they truly are much, much easier than washing by hand. They have rinse cycles that practically clean off really dirty plates before the washing cycle starts.

 

So, if you get a cheap one, it would be practically as easy to wash by hand. Pay a little more, and it is a big difference. It is so worth it to me and a total timesaver.

Amen. I have had no dishwasher, a great dishwasher and currently a horrible dishwasher. I agree a horrible dishwasher is not much better if any than no dishwasher. But a great dishwasher will wash off everything without even rinsing. I can't wait to remodel my kitchen and get a super dishwasher.

[Catwoman]

I just know that every house I have ever lived in had a certain moldy smell around the sink that came from water sitting in the sprayer hose.

I have lived with both a dishwasher and no dishwasher. I also have lived with a well and greywater "tank". I know modern dishwashers can take dishes that are just scraped. I would do a bit of research to make sure your well can support a dishwasher and that your greywater system will be ok with one. Don't just ask the guy who sells dishwashers. Might be fine or might not.

I eat half my meals at my mother's, where there is a dishwasher and usually between 3 and 6 people for dinner. I find that by the time I have scraped (and rinsed if need be) the dishes, I could have washed them almost as quickly and with less fuss and yuckiness. We leave our dishes to air dry at home so no wiping. Putting away the dishes takes the same amount of time both ways.

Other (minor) problems I have with dishwashers:

Glass becomes etched.

Can't put anything wooden in.

Glass and china make a squeak rather like nails on a chalkboard.

Raises the electric bill, even if you run before bed and leave the door ajar overnight to air dry.

Unless your plumbing is good, you can't shower while it is running.

Dirty dishes being put in splash you and mugs being taken out often splash you.

Nan

I can honestly say I have never experienced the problems you have had with sprayer thingies or dishwashers, but I'm glad you're posting so Pen can hear both positives and negatives. :)

[PrincessMommy]

RE: Cabinets   We had intended to have them installed in the Kitchen when we designed and built this home in 2003.  There was a huge cost overrun, which is not uncommon here in Colombia. A cousin in CA told me there it is common for a 10 or 20% cost overrun.

 

So, due to a lack of funds, when we moved in during March 2004, there were no Kitchen cabinets.

 

Why am I writing this to you? Because my wife had discovered, where we lived before this, that Kitchen cabinets and drawers did not get cleaned as often as they should have been cleaned and some of them were not as clean as she would have liked them to have been.  (read, very dirty...)

 

My wife discovered, that without Kitchen cabinets, the things were getting cleaned much more frequently, since they were in plain sight.  Out of sight, out of mind...

 

This is 2017 and we do not have cabinets in the Kitchen.

 

If you want an informal kitchen, this will work for you.  We have a big, informal house, with a big kitchen, and when people come to visit they really like how it is laid out. 

 

Do you have photos.  I'd love to see how a kitchen without kitchen cabinets works?  Where do you put your stuff you'd normally put in cabinets?

 

I like the idea of an informal kitchen.  

[PrincessMommy]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

I big pink puffy heart my dishwasher. :001_wub:

 

me too.

 

I  grew up without a dishwasher.  I'm so glad we have one.  

[PrincessMommy]

Amen. I have had no dishwasher, a great dishwasher and currently a horrible dishwasher. I agree a horrible dishwasher is not much better if any than no dishwasher. But a great dishwasher will wash off everything without even rinsing. I can't wait to remodel my kitchen and get a super dishwasher.

 

how do you know if it's a super dishwasher or not (besides price which isn't always a good indicator of value)?  

 

We had a top of the line Bosch when we moved in.  It wasn't that old... and it sucked.  Hated that thing.  I'm glad I didn't pay the big bucks for it and didn't feel guilty when we replaced it. 

[Scarlett]

how do you know if it's a super dishwasher or not (besides price which isn't always a good indicator of value)?

 

We had a top of the line Bosch when we moved in. It wasn't that old... and it sucked. Hated that thing. I'm glad I didn't pay the big bucks for it and didn't feel guilty when we replaced it.

Both of the great ones I have had were whirlpool. I think you can get a great one for less than $500. I want a quiet one and sometimes those are more expensive.

 

I plan to ask the Hive for recommendations when I get ready to buy. I want to know what model is currently great.

[Sarah CB]

 

A dishwasher is nice for storing dirty dishes if it isn't full of clean ones, but it stinks, is noisy, isn't the time saver it appears to be, and it is gross handling the dirty dishes to load it. If I am going to handle dirty dishes, I like doing it with hot soapy water.

 

 

 

Handle dirty dishes? In our house, when someone is finished with a dish it goes straight into the dishwasher. So, the only person handling the dirty dish is the one who dirtied it. 

 

Ds (11) is tasked with emptying the clean dishwasher. It takes him about 2 minutes. 

[Scarlett]

I probably missed it in this thread but what is a cool cupboard?

 

I cant imagine foods staying cool enough to not spoil but I live in OK. So my thinking on this is probably colored by that but I would enclose the back porch if it is near the kitchen and put a full size refrigerator there.

 

I would also do a dishwasher, but if I had to chose it would be a refrigerator.

 

 

A dishwasher does keep clean and dirty dishes off of the counter/drain board. I have a dishwasher, but as mentioned mine is a terrible one, so I still have a drain board currently takng up counter space since we wash a lot by hand.

[KungFuPanda]

It IS a timesaver. I can load all of our dinner dishes in 5 minutes. I know this because I steep my tea for 5 minutes and I'm finished with the dishes by then. I cannot hand wash them and get them out of the sink and off the counters in 5 minutes. I do not count run time in this equation. If dishes are out of sight and the kitchen looks clean, I am happy. Also, I'm a person who CANNOT own a countertop dish drainer because mi always toss something in it and I font want to see that every day :-/

 

I unload in the morning while steeping tea :-) Five minutes.

[Pen]

...

This is 2017 and we do not have cabinets in the Kitchen.

 

If you want an informal kitchen, this will work for you.  We have a big, informal house, with a big kitchen, and when people come to visit they really like how it is laid out. 

 

 

Where do you keep stuff that might usually be in cabinets? 

 

I can easily understand how not having things hidden away would allow it to be easier to see what is happening in terms of dirt, etc.  But am wondering if wouldn't also add to problems in terms of dust falling on everything more.

 

I have things i don't use often on shelves in basement, and have found that I need to put them in plastic bags or else when I go to use them there is a big cleaning project needed. And I think even things that are out all the time, like an electric coffee grinder, get more dusty than things in a cabinet, like the blender.

 

Maybe we just have a very dusty house, as well as several shedding animals, and forced air heat to blow it all around.  In theory, shoes stay out so as to track in less, but they don't always get removed, And the main house entrance (used--rather than front door that is less used) is a door that comes into the kitchen--which makes our kitchen sort of a mudroom as well.

 

If possible to describe, what is the lay out?  In fact, if you like whole house lay-out, I'd love to know more because at some point (hopefully sooner rather than later) getting a new house built on this same property to allow for 2 generations to live here is a goal.

[prairiewindmomma]

I've lived in a variety of homes over the years--from a teeny tiny Euro apartment with only a mini fridge, a sink, and two burners to a historical home with Victorian era plumbing.  I think you should look at some ideas of what calls out to you. If I were to ever buy another vintage home, I think I'd be inclined to go to IKEA, which has surprisingly quality cabinets and get those, as well as their apron front sink.  I'd maybe do something like this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/AX9M5ssoXg2TUejvgD754EmT2FbiuZdiI-7T4T5jW_feilFRqrSakeU/ or this:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/43065740167391174/ or this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/43065740167246933/

 

Kitchens without cabinets:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/463800461596977317/

 

Personally, I hate the dust of open shelving.

 

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I probably missed it in this thread but what is a cool cupboard?

 

I cant imagine foods staying cool enough to not spoil but I live in OK. So my thinking on this is probably colored by that but I would enclose the back porch if it is near the kitchen and put a full size refrigerator there.

 

I would also do a dishwasher, but if I had to chose it would be a refrigerator.

 

 

A dishwasher does keep clean and dirty dishes off of the counter/drain board. I have a dishwasher, but as mentioned mine is a terrible one, so I still have a drain board currently takng up counter space since we wash a lot by hand.

 

It's just what it sounds like - a cupboard that is vented and situated so that it stays cooler.  In older books sometimes you hear people talk about the larder and that is the same idea.  Usually a cold room or cupboard is going to between 4 and 10 degrees - a refrigerator is usually at about 4.

 

Sometimes they also have stone shelves which retain the cool of the night.

 

There are actually quite a few things that will stay nicely in a cooling cupboard - sometimes better than in the fridge.  We typically refrigerate a lot of things that don't really require it - jam, ketchup, pickles - as well as things which don't do as well in the cold of the fridge - apples, tomatoes, cheese, bread, leftover cakes,  potatoes and onions, squash.  Lots of vegetables keep quite well in a cool cupboard.

[Pen]

I probably missed it in this thread but what is a cool cupboard?

 

I cant imagine foods staying cool enough to not spoil but I live in OK. So my thinking on this is probably colored by that but I would enclose the back porch if it is near the kitchen and put a full size refrigerator there.

 

I would also do a dishwasher, but if I had to chose it would be a refrigerator.

 

 

A dishwasher does keep clean and dirty dishes off of the counter/drain board. I have a dishwasher, but as mentioned mine is a terrible one, so I still have a drain board currently takng up counter space since we wash a lot by hand.

 

 

It seems to have gotten deleted when I tried to separate my OP into paragraphs.

 

My cooler cupboard is on the shady North side of kitchen, floor to ceiling, but only about 9" wide alas and very deep.  I added roll out bins for better access, but it is still  hard to have it so deep but narrow. I also added some tile to keep things even cooler.

 

It has a screened vent to outside on bottom for cooler outside air to come in, and a vent at top (into attic space) for warmer rising air to leave.

 

It's temp seems to be anywhere from around 40degF (winter), to 65degF (summer daytime).

 

Incidentally, just in case that got lost too, We do have a full-size modern refrigerator (side-by-side--if getting another, I think I'd rather have a freezer on the bottom if I could find one that would fit a new location) and a large upright freezer. But they are in a detached outbuilding.

[TravelingChris]

I like cabinets over open shelves.  I really love my dishwasher and think it is a time saver and probably water saver too. However, I also would really want a small refrigerator indoors if the only thing I had was outdoors.  I prefer two large sinks, which is what I have in my upper kitchen.  The lower kitchen has one large sink and it is doable but I like the two sinks better.  Like renthead, I have lived in many, many places due to military life and also in vacations.  I adapt very easily.  But for long term, I prefer both frig and dishwasher.  I currently have cabinets over my stove top.  We keep pots in there.  We don't have short people in our family so it isn't an issue.We get out our pots we will use before cooking.  We keep other pots, mixing bowls, frying pans and things like griddle underneath the stove top.  (We have separate stove top and oven in a different place)

 

[Arcadia]

I am short and find the microwave over the stove difficult to take a hot casserole dish out. I have to tip toe. Now we use a large countertop microwave so even my 5'3" DS11 can cook simple microwave dishes or heat up leftovers.

 

The other problem we have with a microwave over the stove/hood was that the cooking height on the stove gets limited. It is harder to use a three tier Chinese steamer on the stove due to height issues.

 

Regarding the size of sink and the need for dishwasher, it depends on what you usually cook. We are a one pot meal family for lunch and dinner so I only have a pot to wash after lunch and dinner. Kids wash their own bowls and utensils. So my sink is big enough and my dishwasher is unused.

[Scarlett]

I've lived in a variety of homes over the years--from a teeny tiny Euro apartment with only a mini fridge, a sink, and two burners to a historical home with Victorian era plumbing.  I think you should look at some ideas of what calls out to you. If I were to ever buy another vintage home, I think I'd be inclined to go to IKEA, which has surprisingly quality cabinets and get those, as well as their apron front sink.  I'd maybe do something like this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/AX9M5ssoXg2TUejvgD754EmT2FbiuZdiI-7T4T5jW_feilFRqrSakeU/ or this:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/43065740167391174/ or this: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/43065740167246933/

 

Kitchens without cabinets:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/463800461596977317/

 

Personally, I hate the dust of open shelving.

 

 

I love the look of that last link.  I know dh doesn't like it and I doubt it would be good for re sell, but after living with horrible cabinets (saw dust drops into the pots and pans so everything has to be   washed before use) I would welcome open cabinets if they were clean and new.

[Scarlett]

It seems to have gotten deleted when I tried to separate my OP into paragraphs.

 

My cooler cupboard is on the shady North side of kitchen, floor to ceiling, but only about 9" wide alas and very deep.  I added roll out bins for better access, but it is still  hard to have it so deep but narrow. I also added some tile to keep things even cooler.

 

It has a screened vent to outside on bottom for cooler outside air to come in, and a vent at top (into attic space) for warmer rising air to leave.

 

It's temp seems to be anywhere from around 40degF (winter), to 65degF (summer daytime).

 

Incidentally, just in case that got lost too, We do have a full-size modern refrigerator (side-by-side--if getting another, I think I'd rather have a freezer on the bottom if I could find one that would fit a new location) and a large upright freezer. But they are in a detached outbuilding.

 

 

Ok, well that sounds really neat especially if you live in the climate to make it work for many things.  I wouldn't want to lose that just to add a refrigerator to the same room.  But if you could put it in the porch nearby that would be good.

 

Someone mentioned cheese not needing to be refrigerator.  Well, I know it doesn't spoil but it gets really gross in a hot OK summer if not refrigerator.