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This was a little disturbing...a couple today in grocery store...


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What's with the ads?

#101 Word Nerd

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:04 PM

I'm not thumbs upping it. It isn't a choice I would make, but I am VERY much a Not My Monkeys, Not My Circus type person. If they are consenting adults, they can do whatever the heck they want. I don't care. If it isn't consensual, it's wrong in every way.

It isn't about dignity. It's about minding my own business and letting adults live their lives as they see fit.


This. I'm surprised anyone would actually presume to intervene in this scenario, much less what they would do about it.
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#102 Guinevere

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:04 PM

No, you can't just detain people, even those who disturb you greatly. In any case, this isn't about the law, it's about cultural ethics and values.

 

Not forcibly detain.  Talk to, delay, etc.  Sexual slavery is illegal.  

 

If it truly is just bdsm, then it's just about cultural ethics and values, and I'm 100% with you on that.  


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#103 TechWife

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:05 PM

There are people here saying it should be illegal for this couple to be out at the grocery store.  That the police should be called. 

 

The level of outrage here is.... madness.

 

I advocated that the police be called, not because I think it should be illegal for this couple to be in the grocery store, but because I believe that someone should check on the safety of the woman involved. I would never, in this day and age, assume that this woman was participating in this willingly. 


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#104 liber

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:06 PM

That behavior has no place in public.  It should not be normalized.  My children do not need to see that.  And as much as I don't see eye to eye with Sadie on alot of topics I think she is spot on on this one.  I just can't believe the number of people justifying this behaviour going on in public venue.  Some things are not meant for public viewing.   I also don't buy into this idea that it is normal and healthy behaviour.


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#105 CES2005

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:06 PM

Um, I was sharing because it was funny.  And it was DH pretending to be a dog, FTR.

 

There are, in reality, TONS of things in public that I find offensive (abusive parents, as has been mentioned, to be only one.)  And yes, all those things that people choose to do/say/act out in public are "inflicted" on me and/or my child without my consent.

 

I'm somewhat surprised that THIS is what is getting people in an uproar. Madness, the world going to hell, etc.... really, over this? Over two consenting adults. It goes along with my personal theory that people freak out over sexual connotations much more so than anything else, when so many other things have much more serious implications.
 

 

I don't know...I seem to recall an extremely heated debate over yoga pants not terribly long ago... ;)

 

I don't disagree that we're a sexually repressed society, but I'm not sure this particular practice or the acceptance thereof is how we undo the repression.  The reaction I'm seeing here is largely against the underlying attitudes that lead to this practice, and attitudes do have farther-reaching implications than a roll in the hay.  But...again, I can't look too hard at someone else without seeing my own downfall.


Edited by CES2005, 13 September 2017 - 08:11 PM.

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#106 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:06 PM

There are people here saying it should be illegal for this couple to be out at the grocery store.  That the police should be called. 

 

The level of outrage here is.... madness.

 

What's madness is looking at a woman wearing a slave collar, on a leash, in public and thinking that is OK because 'it's her choice'. 


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#107 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:08 PM

Not forcibly detain.  Talk to, delay, etc.  Sexual slavery is illegal.  

 

If it truly is just bdsm, then it's just about cultural ethics and values, and I'm 100% with you on that.  

 

Gotcha.


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#108 Guinevere

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:08 PM

There are people here saying it should be illegal for this couple to be out at the grocery store.  That the police should be called. 

 

The level of outrage here is.... madness.

 

The "people" is me.  Okay, I think one other pp said something.  Anyway, I didn't say that.  I said that I would wonder if the girl was there consensually or not, and would want a welfare check on her behalf.  Is seeing a woman led around by a man with a collar and a leash really not concerning to people?!?  I must live in much more conservative circles than I thought.  

 

I've got to put my kids to bed.  I think both sides have been fairly clearly laid out.

 

My head is going to be spinning over this one for a while, though.

 

Oh, and I don't support the oppression or semblance of oppression in any walk of life.  


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#109 TechWife

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:08 PM

That's not actually the intent with most collars and leads, assuming this wasn't an abusive relationship. This is something I am extremely familiar with and there's a whole lot of assumptions about people's dynamics and intent going on that reality doesn't bear out.

 

I'm assuming nothing. That's why I think someone should check on the woman. If it were a man wearing the collar and being led around, I would think that someone should check on the man. I would not assume that this is a choice the woman is making. 


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#110 nixpix5

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:08 PM

It's the slavery image. I don't think it's respectful at all to women, or to anyone else.


I guess this is where I get caught up. I was playing this out in my head with a different image of the people...let's say all stays the same (2 legal age consensual adults) when does the line cross leading to the sensationalized headline of outrage? Now same scenario here....

60 year old man and his 18 year old consenting wife on a leash

25 year old wife with her 70 year old husband on a leash

White male with his black wife on a leash

White male with his black husband on a leash

Seriously...would everyone still be saying 2 consenting adults, not in a vaccuum with potential childhood issues rearing up? Or would double standard kick in? Is it only okay in certain demographics, with certain situations? I am curious when it over steps a line in public.
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#111 TechWife

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:10 PM

I'm wondering if as many people would be as upset if it was a man in the collar and a woman holding the leash?

 

Yes, yes I certainly would. 


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#112 frugalmamatx

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:10 PM

Agreed.

I guess this is just something I am going to be happy I don't understand. My issue with this isn't the two consensual adults doing their thing, what bothers me is people are not created in a vaccuum. They are raised with varying levels of exposure to parenting, abuse, love, and so forth. Our desire gets tied closely to events without us realizing it young in life. My big question is not is this guy abusive. I am sure he is following exactly what GF wants. My question is why does he find this desirable to begin with? Why does she? What is appealing for her about being submissive and what is appealing to him about wanting to be in complete control? Some life events on both sides lead to this mash up. It is THAT that intrigues me and causes me to scratch my head.

50 Shades of Grey also helped a whole generation see this as a viable option.

 

 

Sometimes yes there are events. Like maybe someone who grew up feeling like they have no control ends up becoming a Dominant. For others? There really isn't a reason or cause. Maybe they just like it. Maybe being submissive calms them. It fills void that other things don't. Everyone has their own reasons and if you ask in a group of BDSM folks, you'll get as many different reasons as people, if not more.  


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#113 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:12 PM

I guess this is where I get caught up. I was playing this out in my head with a different image of the people...let's say all stays the same (2 legal age consensual adults) when does the line cross leading to the sensationalized headline of outrage? Now same scenario here....

60 year old man and his 18 year old consenting wife on a leash

25 year old wife with her 70 year old husband on a leash

White male with his black wife on a leash

White male with his black husband on a leash

Seriously...would everyone still be saying 2 consenting adults, not in a vaccuum with potential childhood issues rearing up? Or would double standard kick in? Is it only okay in certain demographics, with certain situations? I am curious when it over steps a line in public.

 

The line for me is leashing another human, with or without their 'consent'. 

 

There are, however, resonances to the leashing of a black man or woman, or the leashing of a woman by a man, that magnify the dehumanization.

 

 


Edited by Sadie, 13 September 2017 - 08:15 PM.

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#114 Word Nerd

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:16 PM

That behavior has no place in public. It should not be normalized. My children do not need to see that. And as much as I don't see eye to eye with Sadie on alot of topics I think she is spot on on this one. I just can't believe the number of people justifying this behaviour going on in public venue. Some things are not meant for public viewing. I also don't buy into this idea that it is normal and healthy behaviour.


There are many behaviors I see in public that I don't believe are normal or healthy. That doesn't mean I get to tell other people they aren't allowed to engage in that behavior I consider vile (assuming it is legal) or in some way prevent them from doing it.
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#115 Moxie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:18 PM

I advocated that the police be called, not because I think it should be illegal for this couple to be in the grocery store, but because I believe that someone should check on the safety of the woman involved. I would never, in this day and age, assume that this woman was participating in this willingly.


Especially in this day and age, I wouldn't bat an eye. I'd think "aww, the little idiots watched Fifty Shades and wanted to give it a go".
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#116 marbel

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:19 PM

I'm wondering how y'all who are claiming (and with such certainty) that this was all nice and consensual, know that to be true? You're making your own assumptions. It's kind of amusing, actually, to watch you lecturing about assumptions when you are just as guilty.

I would wonder if the woman was a trafficking victim.

I can't "like" posts on my phone. Sadie, you are my hero.

Edited by marbel, 13 September 2017 - 08:19 PM.

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#117 goldberry

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:19 PM

I don't know...I seem to recall an extremely heated debate over yoga pants not terribly long ago... ;)

 

I don't disagree that we're a sexually repressed society, but I'm not sure this particular practice or the acceptance thereof is how we undo the repression.  The reaction I'm seeing ere is largely against the underlying attitudes that lead to this practice, and attitudes do have farther-reaching implications than a roll in the hay.  But...again, I can't look too hard at someone else without seeing my own downfall.

 

But the debate does not seem to be over the implications of this in general, but about this couple being in public at the store.  I would happily debate BDSM in general and whether it's healthy. But people being so freaked out over them being at the store, and how it somehow equals the downfall of society... like I said, I've seen much worse at the store than that. 

 

I would rather see collar/leash couple than:

   A mom cussing and/or slapping her kids

   A Trump that Bitch tshirt

   The person in front of me badmouthing the mentally challenged checkout person

   A religious group handing out "gays will die" brochures

 

All of those things - ALL OF THEM - say more about our society than collar/leash couple.

 

 

 

 


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#118 Moxie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:20 PM

I'm wondering how y'all who are claiming (and with such certainty) that this was all nice and consensual, know that to be true? You're making your own assumptions. It's kind of amusing, actually, to watch you lecturing about negative assumptions when you are just as guilty.

I would wonder if the woman was a trafficking victim.

I can't "like" posts on my phone. Sadie, you are my hero.


Again, a trafficker is highly unlikely to draw this much attention to himself.
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#119 nixpix5

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:20 PM

The line for me is leashing another human, with or without their 'consent'.

There are, however, resonances to the leashing of a black man or woman, or the leashing of a woman by a man, that magnify the dehumanization.


This is what I was wondering. For those who see nothing wrong with it, is there a point at which they do see the dehumanization of it or is any scenario fair game.

I agree Sadie. For me any scenario outside of Halloween or the Renaissance Faire seem like too much and I wouldn't want my daughter to see this in a grocery store.
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#120 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:21 PM

But the debate does not seem to be over the implications of this in general, but about this couple being in public at the store.  I would happily debate BDSM in general and whether it's healthy. But people being so freaked out over them being at the store, and how it somehow equals the downfall of society... like I said, I've seen much worse at the store than that. 

 

I would rather see collar/leash couple than:

   A mom cussing and/or slapping her kids

   A Trump that Bitch tshirt

   The person in front of me badmouthing the mentally challenged checkout person

   A religious group handing out "gays will die" brochures

 

All of those things - ALL OF THEM - say more about our society than collar/leash couple.

 

It's not either/or.

 

Abuse is abuse is abuse. 

 

Public acceptance of women being leashed by a collar says something about society. Misogynistic t-shirts say something about society. Homophobia says something about society. God, all these things are terrible. What is so holy about leashing other humans that exempts that from concern?


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#121 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:23 PM

This is what I was wondering. For those who see nothing wrong with it, is there a point at which they do see the dehumanization of it or is any scenario fair game.

I agree Sadie. For me any scenario outside of Halloween or the Renaissance Faire seem like too much and I wouldn't want my daughter to see this in a grocery store.

 

Well, I'd love to see someone try to justify the optics of a black man being led around by a collar and leash by his white 'partner'. 

 

Actually, such justification would sicken me, but it it's A-OK for women to be on leashes, I can't see how the line can logically  be drawn elsewhere.

 

I'll be interested to see if anyone gives your thought experiment a go. 


Edited by Sadie, 13 September 2017 - 08:28 PM.

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#122 goldberry

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:25 PM

What is so holy about leashing other humans that exempts that from concern?

 

"Concern" is one thing, but people are automatically assuming abuse, sex-trafficking, etc and suggesting those involved are in enough danger that the police should check on them.  That's not just concern, that's a huge amount of judgment about another adult's relationship that no one has ANY idea about.
 


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#123 marbel

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:26 PM

Again, a trafficker is highly unlikely to draw this much attention to himself.


Maybe I'm being repetitive, if so, my apologies.

But this explanation does not fly. Many posters here are saying that they wouldn't bat an eye at the couple. So it seems like the guy may not be drawing undue attention to himself.
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#124 happysmileylady

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:27 PM

The more I think about the outrage here the more I am in awe.  People defend the right of white supremacists, misogynists, etc to free speech and open platforms (and maybe rightfully so) EVEN THOUGH those people are actively wishing harm upon entire other groups of people.  Free country, right?  I had to see people wearing Trump that Bitch tshirts at the grocery store....and yes, there are CHILDREN at the grocery store!  Free speech, by God!

 

But two consenting adults who are not harming or seeking to harm ANYONE else... we can't have that, that's madness! 

 

Yep, I'm in awe.  There's a reason why things are going to hell, but it sure isn't consensual BDSM couples...

 

I absolutely 100% believe that consenting adults should be able to do what they want to do, provided no one is getting hurt.  So as long as the master isn't abusing the slave, then they can do them.

 

But that doesn't mean I have to like it.  I don't have to like the idea that people get their kicks out of playacting at slaves and masters.

 

 

And I REALLY REALLY don't like the idea that getting a kick out of playing slaves and masters is the same thing as keeping a child safe.  THAT is disturbing to me. 
 


Edited by happysmileylady, 13 September 2017 - 08:40 PM.

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#125 goldberry

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:31 PM

 

Public acceptance of women being leashed by a collar says something about society.

 

It's not acceptance of women being leashed, it's acceptance that couples doing things consensually is legally okay in our world, and that there are bigger fish to fry.


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#126 liber

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:31 PM

There are many behaviors I see in public that I don't believe are normal or healthy. That doesn't mean I get to tell other people they aren't allowed to engage in that behavior I consider vile (assuming it is legal) or in some way prevent them from doing it.

 

There are some behaviours that clearly cross the line of decency and that is one of them. 


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#127 ktgrok

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:35 PM

Well, I'd love to see someone try to justify the optics of a black man being led around by a collar and leash by his white 'partner'. 

 

Actually, such justification would sicken me, but it it's A-OK for women to be on leashes, I can't see how the line can logically  be drawn elsewhere.

 

I'll be interested to see if anyone gives your thought experiment a go. 

 

If a black man wishes to be on a leash, I'm not one to say he can't be. 


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#128 happysmileylady

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:35 PM

One other thing to consider....

 

Some folks have mentioned being an "extra"....

 

That could be closer to the truth than we might think.  It's ENTIRELY possible that a couple doing this might very well be filming porn, with the help of a third party with a discreet camera.  Which would make the general public extras in the very real sense. 

 

 


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#129 Word Nerd

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:36 PM

There are some behaviours that clearly cross the line of decency and that is one of them.


I agree it's indecent. So what? Why does my opinion or yours trump the couple's?
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#130 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:38 PM

It's not acceptance of women being leashed, it's acceptance that couples doing things consensually is legally okay in our world, and that there are bigger fish to fry.

 

I've got a big enough pan to fry more than one fish at a time.


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#131 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:39 PM

If a black man wishes to be on a leash, I'm not one to say he can't be. 

 

Well, now I've heard everything.

 

You do know that 'choice' is not some idol to be worshipped, right ? 

 

When people take their kink out into public, they open themselves up for critique. 

 

Would you affirm the white man's wish to leash a black 'partner' also ? You don't see how that is problematic?

 

 

 

 


Edited by Sadie, 13 September 2017 - 08:56 PM.

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#132 Renthead Mommy

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:40 PM

Yes, it does make me angry...not "pretty upset"....angry...that people seem to think adults getting their jollies out of pretending to be slaves is the same thing as keeping a kid safe. The adult holding the lease is not gaining pleasure or power from it, they are keeping their kid from DYING. The very idea that an adult gains the same kind of pleasure from using a kiddie leash that a couple that is aroused by pretending to be slaves and masters is VERY disturbing and disgusting.

I already said I used a leash with my kids. Has nothing to do with guilt and everything to do with comparing BDSM to childhood safety.


Same thing. Keeping control on the child/allowing control on the situation. Keeping safe, feeling safe. End goal is the same. I am guessing you refuse to see the similarities because you don't want that world touching yours. Which is fine. No one is asking you to bark like a dog. But there are similarities and it can be for similar reasons whether you like it or not. Doesn't make it wrong, just makes it different.


Edited by Renthead Mommy, 13 September 2017 - 09:42 PM.

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#133 TechWife

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:43 PM

"Concern" is one thing, but people are automatically assuming abuse, sex-trafficking, etc and suggesting those involved are in enough danger that the police should check on them.  That's not just concern, that's a huge amount of judgment about another adult's relationship that no one has ANY idea about.
 

 

I am not assuming anything, that is why I think the police should check on them. Assuming something would be reporting the man abuse from the get go, instead of calling the police and requesting a welfare check. 

 

When someone appears to be under the control of another person, it is not unreasonable to wonder about the safety of the person who is being controlled. 

 

The alternative for me would be possibly allowing someone to get away with abuse, instead of having an objective person, with the ability to legally intervene in abusive situations, assess the situation. 

 

I personally know someone who probably never would have reported her spouse for abuse. One day, the police witnessed him preventing her from leaving their property (the neighbor called). Because of that, they were able to press charges against him for illegal imprisonment. She did not have to testify, the testimony of the officer was sufficient and the state pressed the charges, not her.  Yes, he did jail time and the police called an advocate to help her get to a safe location. In this case, if a police officer arrived on the scene, assessed the situation (through observation and interviews) and determined that there was indeed abuse occurring, then they can intervene. If they determine there is no abuse occurring, they go on their way, at most providing contact information to the couple and inconveniencing them. It is not an invasion of privacy for the police to ask questions about something that is occurring in public. 


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#134 happysmileylady

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:43 PM

Same thing. Keeping control on the. Hild/allowing control on the situation. Keeping safe, feeling safe. End goal is the same. I am guessing you refuse to see the similarities because you don't want that wirld touching yours. Which is fine. No one is asking you to bark like a dog. But there are similarities and it can be for similar reasons whether you like it ir not. Doesn't make it wrong, just makes it different.

 

That anyone thinks that is more disturbing than the BDSM.  Seriously. 


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#135 liber

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:44 PM

I agree it's indecent. So what? Why does my opinion or yours trump the couple's?

 

Because there is such a thing as common decency and respect for others around you which clearly this couple has chosen to ignore and as such they should be callled out on their behaviour. 

 

Because some opinions are more valid than others and there is nothing wrong is saying so. 


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#136 TechWife

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:45 PM

I've got a big enough pan to fry more than one fish at a time.

 

Absolutely. I have a lot of pans, too. I can always buy more if I need them. This is not a one-issue world. 


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#137 Guinevere

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:46 PM

It's all the same issue anyway: oppression.
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#138 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:48 PM

It's all the same issue anyway: oppression.

 

Amen.


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#139 Seasider

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:52 PM

Sounds like performance art.

Not counting on that being their actual intention, just what it sounds like
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#140 Quill

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:00 PM

Wow. More things I didn't know: some people are fine with violence against women as long as it seems to be consentual.

I think I better step away from this thread and I am not finished page 1.
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#141 ktgrok

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:06 PM

Well, now I've heard everything.

You do know that 'choice' is not some idol to be worshipped, right ?

When people take their kink out into public, they open themselves up for critique.

Would you affirm the white man's wish to leash a black 'partner' also ? You don't see how that is problematic?


My opinion of it doesn't carry more weight than his.
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#142 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:13 PM

Wow. More things I didn't know: some people are fine with violence against women as long as it seems to be consentual.

I think I better step away from this thread and I am not finished page 1.

 

 

This thread brings the old maxim to mind: that people should keep their minds open, but not so open their brains fall out. 


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#143 mytwomonkeys

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:17 PM

I still don't know what acronym everyone is using stands for & Im afraid to google it, lol.
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#144 Sadie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:18 PM

I still don't know what acronym everyone is using stands for & Im afraid to google it, lol.

 

Bondage and Discipline (or dominance), Sadism (and submission) and Masochism. 

 

  • BDSM refers to a range of sexual preferences that generally relate to enjoyment of physical control, psychological control, and/or pain. It can be broken down into six overarching components: bondage and discipline, domination and submission, and sadism and masochism. Bondage and discipline consist of using physical or psychological restraints, domination and submission involve an exchange of power and control, and sadism and masochism refer to taking pleasure in others' or one's own pain or humiliation. Those who practice BDSM may identify with one or more, in any combination, of these components.
  •  â€”Ali Hebert and Angela Weaver,  Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality,  August 2014

Edited by Sadie, 13 September 2017 - 09:20 PM.


#145 mytwomonkeys

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:20 PM

Bondage and Discipline, Sadism and Masochism.


I clearly live under a rock. I had no idea. Never even heard of this.
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#146 jewellsmommy

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:21 PM

They are both on a leash.

 

They both cause negative reations from people. 

 

They are both (if done right in the adult relationship) about keeping/feeling safe and the giving over of control of a situation.

 

So yeah, similar.  

 

One is just more mainstream and easier for people to justify than the other.

 

If I saw a child with a collar around his/her neck that is connected to a lead or chain of any kind, I would definitely call the police! But, I have never seen such a thing. I have seen harnesses and wrist wraps. 

 

If I saw an adult with a wrist wrap or harness attached to a lead, I would assume a need of some sort.

 

One of these is about protection and one of them is about enslaving/degrading someone or at least approximating those qualities visually. 

 

There are plenty of consensual activities that do not belong in public, so that argument does not automatically make something acceptable. 

 

And btw...I don't even lead my dog around by the neck...he gets a harness too.


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#147 Quill

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:22 PM

The "people" is me. Okay, I think one other pp said something. Anyway, I didn't say that. I said that I would wonder if the girl was there consensually or not, and would want a welfare check on her behalf. Is seeing a woman led around by a man with a collar and a leash really not concerning to people?!? I must live in much more conservative circles than I thought.

I've got to put my kids to bed. I think both sides have been fairly clearly laid out.

My head is going to be spinning over this one for a while, though.

Oh, and I don't support the oppression or semblance of oppression in any walk of life.


I am SO EMPHATICALLY BOTHERED that I opened and read this thread an hour before bed. I'm getting no sleep tonight...
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#148 Moxie

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:22 PM

One other thing to consider....

Some folks have mentioned being an "extra"....

That could be closer to the truth than we might think. It's ENTIRELY possible that a couple doing this might very well be filming porn, with the help of a third party with a discreet camera. Which would make the general public extras in the very real sense.


Based on what?? It sounds like they were buying groceries. Pretty tame porn, two people, fully clothed, buying some green beans.
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#149 happysmileylady

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:25 PM

Based on what?? It sounds like they were buying groceries. Pretty tame porn, two people, fully clothed, buying some green beans.

 

Based on the fact that public humiliation of this sort is actually a popular category of porn. 


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#150 Tammi K

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:25 PM

At the end of the day, I'm far more worried about how I conduct my own life than to spend my time wondering about others.

 

Sure, I would notice and, admittedly, probably think it was kinda' weird.  But, as long as both people seem safe and comfortable, It's not my business.


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