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Greek help? I'm a little confused.


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#1 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 05:44 PM

I'm super confused by all the different types of Greek language programs out there.  I see things labeled as Koine, Biblical, New Testament, Attic, modern, etc.  Is there really that big of a difference?  What would be an ancient Greek curriculum that I could use with no prior experience?  I picked up a used set of Elementary Greek (mostly just because it was a good deal).  Would it be appropriate to use this and then switch into an ancient Greek program, or would that just cause confusion?  

 

Thanks.



#2 maize

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 05:57 PM

What is your goal in learning Greek?

They are quite different--well, Biblical/New Testament are the same thing, and I believe are basically a version of koine (a common form of Greek used in New Testament times).

For information on more ancient variants here is an introduction:

https://en.m.wikiped..._Greek_dialects


Modern Greek I think developed from koine but a couple of thousand years do lead to quite a lot of variation (consider what happened in that time to change Latin into the modern romance languages).

#3 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:05 PM

What is your goal in learning Greek?

They are quite different--well, Biblical/New Testament are the same thing, and I believe are basically a version of koine (a common form of Greek used in New Testament times).

For information on more ancient variants here is an introduction:

https://en.m.wikiped..._Greek_dialects


Modern Greek I think developed from koine but a couple of thousand years do lead to quite a lot of variation (consider what happened in that time to change Latin into the modern romance languages).

Hmm, I'm not sure of our main goal.  Personally, I would like to be able to read Homer in Greek.  Dd just mentioned that maybe she would like to learn Greek, so I don't know what her goal is.   We definitely aren't interested in biblical Greek.

 

Thank you for that link.  



#4 eagleynne

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:06 PM

Ok, first off Koine, Biblical, New Testament, and Hellenistic Greek are all the same thing. They are the type of Greek in use from about the start of the  Hellenistic period through the time of Christ.

 

Attic Greek is also known as Classical Greek. It was the language in use during the time of Socrates, Euripides, etc.

 

The oldest form of true Greek is known as Homeric Greek. It is the language of the Iliad and Odyssey.

 

Modern Greek is in use today and has many differences from all of the above.

 

Generally speaking the older the Greek the more complicated it is to learn. I'm assuming that the Elementary Greek curriculum you mention is the one put out by Memoria Press. If I'm right then it is Koine/Biblical Greek. If I'm remembering correctly it has 3 levels at 1 level per year. Memoria Press also has a 1-year Biblical Greek program called First Form Greek. After completing it they recommend moving on to Croy's A Primer of Biblical Greek. Croy's book is very grammar based. It is similar to Wheelock's Latin in the way it is set up. The other popular Biblical Greek program is Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek. It assumes that the student has had no prior exposure to Greek. However, it doesn't stress grammar the same way Croy does.

 

Good Attic programs for beginners are harder to find, the one I used was called Reading Greek, and I really can't recommend it. It was hard to understand and their were a lot of typos.

 

The Homeric program I like the best is Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek course. It is based on the Iliad and has a nice mix of grammar and translation work.

 

In the end which program you pick really depends on your goal for learning the language.


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#5 maize

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:15 PM

Elementary Greek would be fine for learning the basic alphabet, since you have it on hand.

Have your dd research the different types of Greek and make a decision about what she wants to learn beyond that.
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#6 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:15 PM

Ok, first off Koine, Biblical, New Testament, and Hellenistic Greek are all the same thing. They are the type of Greek in use from about the start of the  Hellenistic period through the time of Christ.  

 

Ugh.  Why can't they just call it one thing??  :)

 

Attic Greek is also known as Classical Greek. It was the language in use during the time of Socrates, Euripides, etc.

 

The oldest form of true Greek is known as Homeric Greek. It is the language of the Iliad and Odyssey.

 

Modern Greek is in use today and has many differences from all of the above.

 

​So, I either want Classical or Homeric Greek.  Thank you!

 

Generally speaking the older the Greek the more complicated it is to learn. I'm assuming that the Elementary Greek curriculum you mention is the one put out by Memoria Press. If I'm right then it is Koine/Biblical Greek. If I'm remembering correctly it has 3 levels at 1 level per year. Memoria Press also has a 1-year Biblical Greek program called First Form Greek. After completing it they recommend moving on to Croy's A Primer of Biblical Greek. Croy's book is very grammar based. It is similar to Wheelock's Latin in the way it is set up. The other popular Biblical Greek program is Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek. It assumes that the student has had no prior exposure to Greek. However, it doesn't stress grammar the same way Croy does.

 

Yes, Elementary Greek is the one Memoria Press sells.  It is for a younger age group so I would expect to work through it faster than one level a year.  It is labeled as being used for as young as 4th grade but also good for teens and older beginners.  Since I already own it, I was thinking of giving it a try just to get our feet wet and see if Greek is something my daughter wants to pursue further.  

 

Good Attic programs for beginners are harder to find, the one I used was called Reading Greek, and I really can't recommend it. It was hard to understand and their were a lot of typos.

 

The Homeric program I like the best is Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek course. It is based on the Iliad and has a nice mix of grammar and translation work.

 

In the end which program you pick really depends on your goal for learning the language.

Thank you.  This simplifies things a lot!  



#7 maize

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:16 PM

For Homeric Greek I've been intrigued by (but haven't yet used) this program:


https://www.amazon.c...m/dp/1853994804
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#8 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:55 PM

For Homeric Greek I've been intrigued by (but haven't yet used) this program:


https://www.amazon.c...m/dp/1853994804

Thanks!  Is the entire program contained in that one book?  



#9 nixpix5

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:20 PM

Greek: An Intensive Course 2nd Revision by Hardy Hansen is a phenomenal Classic Greek curriculum. I used it in college and it has been used in many high schools. It is quite clear and understandable.

Edited by nixpix5, 11 September 2017 - 08:21 PM.

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#10 Corraleno

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:23 PM

If your DD might be interested in an online class, Lukeion's Attic Greek class is fantastic. Regan is a truly gifted teacher and the course is extremely well done — the standards are high but he makes it enjoyable. They use the Athenaze texts for Greek 1 & 2, then students read original Greek in 3 & 4. They also offer independent study in Homeric Greek (although I assume they would require completion of at least Greek 1 & 2 first). 

 

DS took four years of Greek with Lukeion and then self-studied Homeric last year. He has absolutely loved every Lukeion course he has taken (including Latin, classical literature, and Greek art & architecture), but Greek was his absolute favorite.


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#11 maize

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:37 PM

Thanks! Is the entire program contained in that one book?


As far as I know, yes.
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#12 bensonduck

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:49 PM

We completed the first 2 levels of Elementary Greek and it is excellent for learning declensions and conjugations and some prepositions. We have now transitioned to Athenaze which is a high school Attic Greek textbook with pretty much no issues. Elementary Greek gave us a great foundation.

I have always heard that if you master Attic then there are only a few extra wrinkles to read Homeric. I think that will be our path. There is so much to read in Attic as it is.

Check out the textkit forums and free PDFs available on textkit. They have some excellent resources and the forum members are very willing to answer questions/help.

Also FYI, If I could go back to Elementary Greek I would have paid MUCH more attention to accentuation because it would have helped us significantly with Athenaze.
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#13 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:59 PM

We completed the first 2 levels of Elementary Greek and it is excellent for learning declensions and conjugations and some prepositions. We have now transitioned to Athenaze which is a high school Attic Greek textbook with pretty much no issues. Elementary Greek gave us a great foundation.

I have always heard that if you master Attic then there are only a few extra wrinkles to read Homeric. I think that will be our path. There is so much to read in Attic as it is.

Check out the textkit forums and free PDFs available on textkit. They have some excellent resources and the forum members are very willing to answer questions/help.

Also FYI, If I could go back to Elementary Greek I would have paid MUCH more attention to accentuation because it would have helped us significantly with Athenaze.

In your opinion (since you have used EG), what sort of credit would I be able to give if we did the 3 levels of Elementary Greek in 1 year and then moved on to another program for year 2?  



#14 Corraleno

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:47 PM

Elementary Greek is for grades 4-8, and it's koine, so if the goal is to learn Classical (Attic) or Homeric Greek at a high school level, you'd be starting over with Greek 1 anyway, because the grammar is more complex and the vocab is different.



#15 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 09:59 PM

If your DD might be interested in an online class, Lukeion's Attic Greek class is fantastic. Regan is a truly gifted teacher and the course is extremely well done — the standards are high but he makes it enjoyable. They use the Athenaze texts for Greek 1 & 2, then students read original Greek in 3 & 4. They also offer independent study in Homeric Greek (although I assume they would require completion of at least Greek 1 & 2 first). 

 

DS took four years of Greek with Lukeion and then self-studied Homeric last year. He has absolutely loved every Lukeion course he has taken (including Latin, classical literature, and Greek art & architecture), but Greek was his absolute favorite.

 

I have looked at Lukeion before, and I would LOVE to sign DD up for their classes, but honestly it's just not in my budget.  I would like to find an inexpensive Attic Greek program that we can learn together, with neither of us having any prior experience.  



#16 bensonduck

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:08 PM

In your opinion (since you have used EG), what sort of credit would I be able to give if we did the 3 levels of Elementary Greek in 1 year and then moved on to another program for year 2?


I'm not the best person to ask as I don't have a student in high school yet. Each book has 30 lessons broken up into 4 or 5 smaller assignments. Completing 30 lessons over 12 weeks/ 60 days - I think you'd be in the ball park of an hour per day but know literally nothing about accounting for HS foreign language credit! Sorry I can't be more helpful!

#17 maize

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:20 PM

Maybe this would be helpful?



http://www.opencultu...is-harvard.html
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#18 mo2

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 10:34 PM

Maybe this would be helpful?



http://www.opencultu...is-harvard.html

Oooh, thank you!


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#19 Corraleno

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:58 AM

There is a free answer key for the Hansen & Quinn text (used in the lectures that Maize linked) here


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#20 loesje22000

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:40 AM

Where I live, EG 1-3 would considered about 1 credit With an older child EG is pretty easy and about 10 min. a day (in our home)
We did EG 1 and switched then to Athenaze 1.
Greek is currently in the fridge though (to be picked up later)
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#21 mo2

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 03:26 PM

Where I live, EG 1-3 would considered about 1 credit With an older child EG is pretty easy and about 10 min. a day (in our home)
We did EG 1 and switched then to Athenaze 1.
Greek is currently in the fridge though (to be picked up later)

 

Did you think that completing EG before Athenaze was helpful?  Or would you have done just as well starting with Athenaze?



#22 crazyforlatin

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 06:41 PM

Did you think that completing EG before Athenaze was helpful? Or would you have done just as well starting with Athenaze?

DD used EG at a very young age so that by the time she began Athenaze with Lukeion it was an easy transition with familiar words. It wasn't an overwhelming language to begin (unlike Russian and maybe Arabic for DD). We loved EG, and I would have been quite happy if DD could only read Koine. EG is not such an in-depth curriculum that you would be confused when you switch to Athenaze, but it helps get you started with being familiar with the alphabet, some common words, and light grammar. Having a Latin background helped just so that we didn't have to go over unfamiliar grammar terms.

Whether EG 1-3 is one credit, that's hard to say. I don't have a kid in high school. Based on the EG workload versus workload of Lukeion Athenaze, I'm not sure I could award 1 credit without some other supplement. But Lukeion gives a lot of work so I'm basing rigor and workload on that provider, I would add something like an annotated New Testament reader. I wouldn't require the complete reading obviously; excerpts of some well known passages not covered in EG perhaps to round out the study.

Edited by crazyforlatin, 12 September 2017 - 06:46 PM.

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#23 loesje22000

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 12:00 AM

Did you think that completing EG before Athenaze was helpful? Or would you have done just as well starting with Athenaze?


We only did EG1 because dd wanted something 'new' and we had a heavy exam load (grade 8 exit exams. EG was gentle enough to do some Greek. When the exams have been passed we changed to Athenaze.

I studied some Koine Greek myself during college, and I am not sure I could have used Athenaze without that knowledge.

I agree with the description of Crazyfor Latin of EG
CLRC has classical greek too, but maybe outside your budget...
http://clrconline.co...cal-greek-home/
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#24 Bluegoat

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 08:44 AM

I used Athenaze in university with no prior Greek.  It was fine for me as a student - actually, I loved, it was a wonderful book.

 

It might be hard to teach from - it's not designed for someone with no Greek.


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#25 Emerald Stoker

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:14 AM

I can't seem to paste the link, but there was a useful thread on this topic three years ago with lots of good information. It was Amy Jo's thread on the Logic board started on February 1, 2014, and it was called "Elementary Greek or Athenaze?".

 

Hope that helps (despite my link-incompetence)!

 

ETA: tried a different browser and it worked!

 

http://forums.welltr...ek#entry5462929


Edited by Emerald Stoker, 13 September 2017 - 06:48 PM.

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#26 TKDmom

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:23 AM

I can't seem to paste the link, but there was a useful thread on this topic three years ago with lots of good information. It was Amy Jo's thread on the Logic board started on February 1, 2014, and it was called "Elementary Greek or Athenaze?".

 

Hope that helps (despite my link-incompetence)!

Here:

http://forums.welltr...ementary-greek/


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#27 Emerald Stoker

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 09:30 AM

Kicks like a girl, links like a pro! Thanks so much, Bonnie!!



#28 Zoo Keeper

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:01 AM

Maybe this would be helpful?



http://www.opencultu...is-harvard.html

 

Cool find, Maize!  

 

Thanks for the link. :)


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#29 mo2

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:56 PM

 

It might be hard to teach from - it's not designed for someone with no Greek.

Ok, this bit is important.  I have NO knowledge of Greek and only a little experience with Latin.   Thank you.  



#30 mo2

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:58 PM

Thanks for all the advice.  I think we will get the book to accompany the lectures that maize linked above and give that a try.  :)

 


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