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High school math and common core


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#1 MotherGoose

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 04:27 PM

Hi,
My oldest is in sixth grade, and is on schedule for Saxon math to do algebra one in eighth grade. I talked to a public high school math teacher today and he told me about how the maths have been changed so at his school, and I presume most?? I don't know, have gone from the traditional sequence of algebra one, geometry, alg two, etc to math one, two, and three. And that they are taught in semesters like college instead of year long classes. I'm not planning to change anything about my dd education, but I wondered if any of you had experience with these new math classes? I thought it was still the same sequence of classes. I have considered having my kids go to public school for high school, but I really think it's developmentally inappropriate for a fifteen year old to grasp what has always been a year long class in one semester. I don't have a specific question, but I'd like to know your experiences.

#2 Library Momma

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 04:53 PM

My kids are in public school in a common core state.  There are abuot 175 students per grade.  The are a number of tracks and options.  In addition to what is listed below there are remedial level math classes and double period classes for students that struggle.  Advanced students can also jump ahead (i.e. a 7th grader in Calc  or a senior in DE advanced math beyond Calc but an IEP would be needed)  The classes are a year long. The average variety of track options that are offered are as follows:

 

7th Grade:

 

"7th grade math"

Pre-Algebra

 

8th Grade:

"8th grade math"

Algebra

 

9th Grade:

Algebra

Honors Algebra

Geometry

Honors Geometry

 

10th Grade:

 

Geometry

Honors Geometry

Algebra 2

Honors Algebra 2

 

11th Grade:

 

Algebra 2 

Honors Algebra 2

Pre-Calc

Honors Pre-Calc

some also take AP Stats

 

12th Grade:

 

Pre-Calc

Honors Pre-Calc

Calculus

AP Calc

Some also take AP Stats

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#3 klmama

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:25 PM

OP, at the high school do they have block scheduling? So, four couses each semester, but longer class periods?

#4 Noreen Claire

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 05:34 PM

The Common Core State Standards in MA have two possible pathways:

Alg 1, Geo, Alg 2
or
Integrated math 1, 2, 3

(And then more advanced options for senior year/advanced students)

If your child is ready for algebra 1, they are ready for math 1 (which combines topics across math).
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#5 MotherGoose

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 06:12 PM

OP, at the high school do they have block scheduling? So, four couses each semester, but longer class periods?


Yes, I think this is the case.
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#6 MotherGoose

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 06:14 PM

The Common Core State Standards in MA have two possible pathways:

Alg 1, Geo, Alg 2
or
Integrated math 1, 2, 3

(And then more advanced options for senior year/advanced students)

If your child is ready for algebra 1, they are ready for math 1 (which combines topics across math).


I think this is what we have. But it sounds Iike there isn't a choice: you have to take the integrated math.

#7 MotherGoose

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 06:16 PM

My kids are in public school in a common core state. There are abuot 175 students per grade. The are a number of tracks and options. In addition to what is listed below there are remedial level math classes and double period classes for students that struggle. Advanced students can also jump ahead (i.e. a 7th grader in Calc or a senior in DE advanced math beyond Calc but an IEP would be needed) The classes are a year long. The average variety of track options that are offered are as follows:

7th Grade:

"7th grade math"
Pre-Algebra

8th Grade:
"8th grade math"
Algebra

9th Grade:
Algebra
Honors Algebra
Geometry
Honors Geometry

10th Grade:

Geometry
Honors Geometry
Algebra 2
Honors Algebra 2

11th Grade:

Algebra 2
Honors Algebra 2
Pre-Calc
Honors Pre-Calc
some also take AP Stats

12th Grade:

Pre-Calc
Honors Pre-Calc
Calculus
AP Calc
Some also take AP Stats


This is along the lines of what I was expecting.
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#8 Mabelen

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 12:15 AM

Our school district has chosen the integrated math path too. So for high school you have Math 1, Math 2 and Math 3 instead of the traditional sequence of Algebra 1, Geometry and Algebra 2. In our area the number of district that chose either path are pretty evenly split.

At the end of the three years, students in any of the districts will have covered the exact same content, regardless of path.

My 8th grader is taking Math 1. At her school, because it is a middle school, Math 1 is a year long class, although it is structured in 2 semesters. If she had taken it at high school, it would have been a two trimester class, so the pace would have been faster.

I honestly prefer skill subjects to be year long, it's better for long term retention. All those months in between math classes or foreign language classes can't be good.
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#9 MarkT

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 09:10 AM

One of the original goals of Common Core Math was to help define more standardized Math courses across the states. The Common Core Math standards allow either the traditional sequence or the Integrated Math sequence so in the end they made it harder for students to move from one school district to another. 

 

My local school district uses the integrated sequence but the nearby school districts use the traditional sequence plus AZ has a lot of charter schools that use either sequence. This must be a nightmare for the students and administrators if they move to a different school district which is quite common.

 

 



#10 Roadrunner

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 02:03 PM

I think the big difference with Common Core is the inclusion of statistics into math. Our district uses integrated math and there is quite a lot of stats there. I have yet to figure out what I can use to cover those gaps.

#11 Mabelen

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 05:58 PM

If you want to compare the traditional sequence to the integrated path, you can check out the following page:
http://cpm.org/textbooks/

For the integrated sequence, pick CC Integrated 1, CC Integrated 2 and CC Integrated 3.

For the traditional sequence, pick CC Algebra, CC Geometry and CC Algebra 2.
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#12 Black-eyed Suzan

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 10:02 PM

I was just listening to public school parents discuss this and wondered the same thing!

Our district chose the integrated track. As far as I know, some schools have block scheduling and some don't. None of the parents could tell me what was after Math 3 (their oldest children were freshmen).

Thanks, Mabelen, for the link! It appears that pre-calculus and calculus are after Math 3. So in order to get to Calculus senior year, the public-schooled student would have to take Math 1 in 8th.

#13 Pen

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 10:21 PM

The books and content seem different, including as mentioned above, a lot of statistics incorporated. But at my ds's school most math classes have standard names, like pre-algebra, algebra etc.    They do get grades by semester and it is possible to get only a semester of credit--but the opposite of a whole year in one semester (other than for maybe an individual student working ahead fast). Rather there is an algebra 1 in two years option.



#14 Mabelen

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 10:42 PM

I was just listening to public school parents discuss this and wondered the same thing!

Our district chose the integrated track. As far as I know, some schools have block scheduling and some don't. None of the parents could tell me what was after Math 3 (their oldest children were freshmen).

Thanks, Mabelen, for the link! It appears that pre-calculus and calculus are after Math 3. So in order to get to Calculus senior year, the public-schooled student would have to take Math 1 in 8th.


All our high schools run either on the trimester or the quarter system. At our zoned high school, you can start with Math 1 in 9th grade and get to AP Calc or AP Stats by 12th grade if you take 3 trimesters of math every year. Right now my daughter is planning to take band all 4 years of high school. Band uses up 2 class periods trimester 1, and 1 class period trimester 2 and 3. She could still get to AP Calc or AP Stats by senior year taking 2 trimesters of math a year because she is getting 1 year of high school math credit this year in 8th grade.

#15 MerryAtHope

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Posted 10 September 2017 - 11:19 PM

Here they've gone the integrated route, and...not impressed! I wouldn't do it (or at least not how they've chosen to do it here!)


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#16 GeorgiaH

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:07 AM

What texts are used for the Integrated Math?



#17 Black-eyed Suzan

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:19 AM

All our high schools run either on the trimester or the quarter system. At our zoned high school, you can start with Math 1 in 9th grade and get to AP Calc or AP Stats by 12th grade if you take 3 trimesters of math every year. Right now my daughter is planning to take band all 4 years of high school. Band uses up 2 class periods trimester 1, and 1 class period trimester 2 and 3. She could still get to AP Calc or AP Stats by senior year taking 2 trimesters of math a year because she is getting 1 year of high school math credit this year in 8th grade.


Good!
Our district schedules by semesters. I wonder if block schedule students here can take 2 math classes per year. ??? Just a rhetorical question - I know I'll have to ask. :)
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#18 Mabelen

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 02:47 PM

Here they've gone the integrated route, and...not impressed! I wouldn't do it (or at least not how they've chosen to do it here!)


What are your objections to the integrated path as it has been done in your district?

I don't object to an integrated path per se. It really is the way math is learned in most parts of the world and I how I learned it myself. When my oldest got to high school I found the traditional sequence a bit odd, to be honest. What I object to is incompetent math teachers regardless of path. I have come across a couple of these at my daughters' schools. They can wreck havoc with students' futures.
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#19 Mabelen

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 02:49 PM

What texts are used for the Integrated Math?

This is the textbook my daughter is using for Math 1:
http://cpm.org/int1

Edited by Mabelen, 11 September 2017 - 02:50 PM.

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#20 MerryAtHope

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:15 PM

What are your objections to the integrated path as it has been done in your district?

 

Well, at least as of a couple of years ago, they did things like not having a text-book (so if a student was behind and missing some basic concepts, you couldn't go back and show how it was taught to solidify understanding), "integrated" didn't mean the topics related to each other or were lined up in any meaningful way (what's the point of "integrating" then?!), students copied down information from a screen and took a test every Friday, and if they didn't score well enough they kept working on the previous unit--but meanwhile the class moved on so the student also had to work on the current week's lessons (because there's no text book and they have to copy everything down...)--and pretty soon struggling students ended up with a lot of gaps in their understanding...it just sounded so chaotic, and I couldn't imagine what the point was of doing it that way! I don't know if it has improved since then...


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#21 Mabelen

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:15 PM

Good!
Our district schedules by semesters. I wonder if block schedule students here can take 2 math classes per year. ??? Just a rhetorical question - I know I'll have to ask. :)


Just make sure that you can still fit in all the other graduation and college prep requirements.
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#22 MarkT

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 11:49 PM

This is the textbook my daughter is using for Math 1:
http://cpm.org/int1

How do you like CPM?

 

In the past I don't remember anyone raving about them.

 

example review of older CPM:

http://www.nychold.com/cpm.html



#23 Mabelen

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:33 AM

How do you like CPM?

In the past I don't remember anyone raving about them.

example review of older CPM:
http://www.nychold.com/cpm.html


I agree with the criticism that too much emphasis is placed on team work. It is sad, but I have stopped relying on the school for math instruction. We afterschool math at home with one on one tutoring twice a week now. If she gets a good math teacher, then great! If not, at least she is getting instruction at home.
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#24 Sneezyone

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 04:13 AM

I agree with the criticism that too much emphasis is placed on team work. It is sad, but I have stopped relying on the school for math instruction. We afterschool math at home with one on one tutoring twice a week now. If she gets a good math teacher, then great! If not, at least she is getting instruction at home.


I'm finding that most CC math programs place more emphasis on group discovery of concepts, which can be fine so long as it's accompanied by some repetition to solidify procedural mastery. It's that lack of repetition that seems to be missing. There are too few problem sets and not enough practice.
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#25 snowbeltmom

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 05:15 AM

How do you like CPM?

 

In the past I don't remember anyone raving about them.

 

example review of older CPM:

http://www.nychold.com/cpm.html

 

The schools around me use this program, and many parents bring their kids to me for tutoring.  If I were in charge of choosing a curriculum, I would definitely not choose this one.  The topics are presented in a disjointed and haphazard way, making it difficult for the kids to build a strong math foundation.  The concepts are taught using the discovering method, also known as "the blind leading the blind".  There is a big focus on team projects and team tests, which my tutoring students hate because their grades are based on how their teammates perform on tests and quizzes.

 

I have friends who have moved their kids to private school for high school, something they had no intention of doing, because of this math program. 
 


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#26 Roadrunner

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 10:03 AM

The schools around me use this program, and many parents bring their kids to me for tutoring. If I were in charge of choosing a curriculum, I would definitely not choose this one. The topics are presented in a disjointed and haphazard way, making it difficult for the kids to build a strong math foundation. The concepts are taught using the discovering method, also known as "the blind leading the blind". There is a big focus on team projects and team tests, which my tutoring students hate because their grades are based on how their teammates perform on tests and quizzes.

I have friends who have moved their kids to private school for high school, something they had no intention of doing, because of this math program.


Do you have any experience with Carnegie integrated math? Our district is using it.

#27 snowbeltmom

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 12:30 PM

Do you have any experience with Carnegie integrated math? Our district is using it.

 

Sorry, that one is not being used by any of the schools in my immediate area, so I don't have any experience with that one.
 


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#28 amsunshine

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:07 PM

Hi,
My oldest is in sixth grade, and is on schedule for Saxon math to do algebra one in eighth grade. I talked to a public high school math teacher today and he told me about how the maths have been changed so at his school, and I presume most?? I don't know, have gone from the traditional sequence of algebra one, geometry, alg two, etc to math one, two, and three. And that they are taught in semesters like college instead of year long classes. I'm not planning to change anything about my dd education, but I wondered if any of you had experience with these new math classes? I thought it was still the same sequence of classes. I have considered having my kids go to public school for high school, but I really think it's developmentally inappropriate for a fifteen year old to grasp what has always been a year long class in one semester. I don't have a specific question, but I'd like to know your experiences.

 

In our area, some schools have integrated math, some don't, and some have the semester long classes, and some don't.  I personally agree that it is not developmentally appropriate for kids in high school to do what was previously a year long high school course within one semester, but I've heard some parents rave about it.

 

I actually have nothing against integrated maths because both Singapore and Saxon (the old editions) are integrated and that's what we used with great success.  However, I'm unimpressed with the textbooks used at my dds' school.  Luckily, my dds both finished either all or most of high school math before starting at their school, so they avoided most of the bad stuff.  It's unfortunate that schools don't just use Singapore or Saxon for their integrated curriculum -- ime, those texts are far superior to the junk being used at our school.  



#29 Mabelen

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 01:44 PM

I'm finding that most CC math programs place more emphasis on group discovery of concepts, which can be fine so long as it's accompanied by some repetition to solidify procedural mastery. It's that lack of repetition that seems to be missing. There are too few problem sets and not enough practice.


I couldn't agree more with this assessment. I don't have anything against the discovery method. If done right, it can lead to solid mastery of concepts. However, I think, for most students, you definitely need a very good to excellent teacher leading the class, much more class time to allow for those discoveries and connections to be made, and a lot more class time again for practice that leads to long term retention. I have yet to find all of these elements present in my daughter's school math class. For this reason, I believe direct instruction would yield much better results in most public schools.
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