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JCWM (Just commiserate with me)


creekland
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I'm at my in-laws again.  Nothing has changed with MIL's severe Alzheimer's or FIL's (89 years old) realistic inability to care for her well.  Then add that this morning as he was (very) rudely making her get up, I'm positive I heard him slap her - plus she now talks about being worried about being "knocked in the head" if something is wrong.  

 

I have no proof.  There are no marks, but there's not much that matches the sound of a slap on skin and I suspect he sees it the same as spanking a young child.

 

We've looked up numbers for FIL to call to try to get in home help or given him ideas of placement help.  He refuses.  Hubby has called the number for help himself, but can't actually do anything other than be told there are groups FIL can join.  He's also been told it's tough to get good help.

 

When we arrived, MIL was sitting in the back of their car.  This is VA.  Cars get hot - though it wasn't as hot of a day as some.  FIL claims he didn't know she was there, but oddly enough, he had put the windows down... and he never does that normally.  He's mentioned leaving her in the car while he does dr appts and similar things before.  She wandered from the car once.  A nurse returned her to him.  She's wandered from her house several times.  The neighbors and/or police return her to him.

 

Neither us nor BIL live close enough to "take over" more than we do now (which honestly isn't much more than a couple of times per month) and this time he seemed to slap her even when we're here, but otherwise lets us take over and seems to really appreciate the break.  Neither of us live in houses where they could move in (due to stairs, and for us, the only bathroom being on the second floor).

 

So I see no realistic solution.  FIL won't listen to me.  TBH, he doesn't really even understand me since he speaks deep southern and I'm a Yankee - plus he has a hearing issue (wears hearing aids, but they aren't perfect).  Hubby translates.  He tells hubby that all is fine even as he admits things are getting worse with her (Alzheimer's -wise).

 

I'm miserable wanting to see things get better for both of them, but being unable to actually DO a thing.  (sigh)  So JCWM.

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Call an elder abuse helpline.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know you said JCWM, but I have to echo Jean's advice. Despite his best intentions, your FIL is no longer capable of providing adequate care on his own. It's time for someone to step up and strenuously advocate for your MIL's wellbeing.

 

This is so very difficult, I'm sorry circumstances have not already changed, I know it's been concerning for a while now.

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What can they do without proof or marks or something?  I'm positive FIL would deny everything and MIL can't remember anything. (An honest question.)

 

Ask them. They will be able to tell you what options you have available, what documentation they need, and what they can do.

Perhaps it is important that there is a record established, so they can follow up more quickly. They would be the ones to know.

I think this is beyond what you can remediate in occasional visits. Many hugs.

 

ETA: This has to be a common scenario, since elderly with dementia are probably the most common victims.

Edited by regentrude
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What can they do without proof or marks or something?  I'm positive FIL would deny everything and MIL can't remember anything. (An honest question.)

This is what they do for a living. Give them a chance.  They may have strategies that you haven't thought of.. They also may know how to get help before it gets more dangerous and she really does get hurt.  

 

Sometimes, there are amazing people at these agencies who know how to talk to a caretaker and help them see that they need help, when they won't take it from anyone else. 

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Ask them. They will be able to tell you what options you have available, what documentation they need, and what they can do.

Perhaps it is important that there is a record established, so they can follow up more quickly. They would be the ones to know.

I think this is beyond what you can remediate in occasional visits. Many hugs.

 

ETA: This has to be a common scenario, since elderly with dementia are probably the most common victims.

 

Good idea... hopefully it would be able to be anonymous because I'd rather not get in trouble with "the family," but seriously, there has to be something better when we're not around.  Better for both of them.  I completely understand the frustration FIL must have taking care of her 24/7.  Her needs at this stage are very high (can't eat well, can't control body functions well, etc).  But she shouldn't have to endure slaps.  Even if one believes in spanking for children, it's for "willful disobedience."  There's no "willful disobedience" with MIL.  She seriously can't remember how to get dressed, etc.

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They're not willing to relocate? Have her be in a memory care place while he lived nearby? I suppose not, if he's not even willing to hire in help. Sigh. I am sorry, but I do think in this situation that getting outside resources involved is the only choice that will get things to change. Does your dh have a power of attorney, or another sibling? 

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I can commiserate with you.  MIL went through the same thing, though not actually intentional abuse. But when FIL/SIL couldn't properly take care of her I think it drifted into neglect.  They were so fearful of outsiders.  It was awful. 

 

MIL passed away two weeks ago and FIL is finally coming to realize how much she was suffering and how inadequate his help was. 

 

:grouphug:

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This is what they do for a living. Give them a chance.  They may have strategies that you haven't thought of.. They also may know how to get help before it gets more dangerous and she really does get hurt.  

 

Sometimes, there are amazing people at these agencies who know how to talk to a caretaker and help them see that they need help, when they won't take it from anyone else. 

 

Gosh I love the Hive.  Y'all have given me hope.  Tomorrow I'll look up the number closest to where they live (because we'll all be heading back home tomorrow and it won't be a holiday).  Maybe someone will be able to do something.

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 Does your dh have a power of attorney, or another sibling? 

 

Another sibling - the one who lives the closest.

 

FIL is perfectly capable of caring for himself - and her when she was at a less severe stage - but things have just progressed with her.  I think he'd enjoy life much more if he had help.  He's out fishing with hubby as I type - with my blessing.  He needs respite.  We all would.  I'm assisting with counting boats over and over and answering repetitive questions as I type - not difficult to do for a short period of time, but that and health issues 24/7...  We all would.

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Yeah, involve the pros. For his sake AND hers. Demented relatives are so challenging even for someone younger and able bodied. If he will not accept help it is loving and kind to push the issue because now he is showing he cannot do without it. She deserved better and if he cant provide it, that's okay. But it needs fixing.

 

So frustrating! I'm sorry Creekland :grouphug:

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I can commiserate with you.  MIL went through the same thing, though not actually intentional abuse. But when FIL/SIL couldn't properly take care of her I think it drifted into neglect.  They were so fearful of outsiders.  It was awful. 

 

MIL passed away two weeks ago and FIL is finally coming to realize how much she was suffering and how inadequate his help was. 

 

:grouphug:

 

Offering  :grouphug: back for the commiseration.

 

And otherwise... I googled what I think should be the number I call - and putting it in here so I have easy access to it tomorrow:

 

http://www.dss.virginia.gov/family/as/aps.cgi

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Would it be worth trying to have your dh and his sibling with POA (plus any others if possible) sit down with FIL and lay it on the line?

 

Say, "Dad, we know you've done the best you can, but this is not working. Mom is not safe, and you are trying to do more than one human can do. We are making appointments to visit x, y, and z. Let's see which is the best fit." Don't ask him; tell him. It might give him an excuse to quit something he feels obligated to continue.

 

Btw, I've been there and know how hard it is. Hugs. One way or another, I hope you can find a better situation.

Edited by Innisfree
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Hi, I've been lurking, but just registered to answer this post. I'm an RN and know there are so many elderly people in this kind of situation.

 

Full time care of an Alzheimer's patient is too much for an 89-year old man. There are elder services out there; you can help set them up with things like Meals on Wheels, housekeeping help, help with fixing things around the house, and maybe most importantly, caregiver respite. With a patient with memory issues, he can't even sleep restfully at night, as she might wander away.

 

The county they reside in should have services. This link (not spam, I promise) has some good information; scroll down for links by state. Good luck and hugs to all of you. The helpless feeling that family members have in this situation is just overwhelming. https://www.eldercaredirectory.org/state-resources.htm

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When my grandmother was failing, my grandfather had a weekly visit. When the monitor suspected him of neglecting his own health in favor of his wife's, she warned him that my grandmother would be removed if he didn't care for himself. She also helped him make arrangments for respite care for himself. It helped him realize how tough things were and also helped the adult children avoid a confrontation with their father.

Edited by ErinE
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Would it be worth trying to have your dh and his sibling with POA (plus any others if possible) sit down with FIL and lay it on the line?

 

Say, "Dad, we know you've done the best you can, but this is not working. Mom is not safe, and you are trying to do more than one human can do. We are making appointments to visit x, y, and z. Let's see which is the best fit."

 

BIL doesn't see that anything should be different.  He thinks FIL is just fine.  He's not terribly kind to MIL when we're all together either TBH.  Nothing physically abusive, but many "remarks" made.  Hubby has spoken to him about "what to do" and met a stone wall.

 

Here's the thing, even if they find that he isn't abusing her/no proof of anything...they WILL help him get started trying to get the help he needs.  Referring him to senior services, respite services, etc.  And if he is abusing her, even if they don't find proof now, there is documentation that someone is concerned.  And if, for example, that same nurse spots her wandering again and returns her, but has concerns....when she calls, there's already a file going. 

 

 

Calling doesn't have to mean you are accusing him of abuse.  It means you know he needs help, and calling them is a good place to start. 

 

This is what I'm hoping for TBH... hoping someone can do what I can't.  I don't want "punishment,"  I want help for them both. 

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BIL doesn't see that anything should be different. He thinks FIL is just fine. He's not terribly kind to MIL when we're all together either TBH. Nothing physically abusive, but many "remarks" made. Hubby has spoken to him about "what to do" and met a stone wall.

.

 

In that case you have no alternative to the elder abuse route. I'm so sorry.

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Hi, I've been lurking, but just registered to answer this post. I'm an RN and know there are so many elderly people in this kind of situation.

 

Full time care of an Alzheimer's patient is too much for an 89-year old man. There are elder services out there; you can help set them up with things like Meals on Wheels, housekeeping help, help with fixing things around the house, and maybe most importantly, caregiver respite. With a patient with memory issues, he can't even sleep restfully at night, as she might wander away.

 

The county they reside in should have services. This link (not spam, I promise) has some good information; scroll down for links by state. Good luck and hugs to all of you. The helpless feeling that family members have in this situation is just overwhelming. https://www.eldercaredirectory.org/state-resources.htm

 

You have my sincere thanks for your thoughts/help.  The VA number on that site is different than the one I found, so one or the other ought to work out.  I'll probably try yours first since it comes from eldercare rather than protective services itself.

 

I fully agree that caring for her is too much at this stage even with his best intentions.  It's been too much for the past couple of years and it's only getting worse.  I admire him for sticking with her and trying.  So many guys wouldn't have cared.

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You're a mandated reporter, so you don't really have a choice but to call Adult Protective Services.  I am so sorry.

 

I'll edit to add that, in my state, if you indicate that the slap was more than 24 hours ago, you'd lose your job at the school.  So, I'd be careful with the "calling tomorrow" plan. 

Edited by Daria
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You're a mandated reporter, so you don't really have a choice but to call Adult Protective Services.  I am so sorry.

 

I'll edit to add that, in my state, if you indicate that the slap was more than 24 hours ago, you'd lose your job at the school.  So, I'd be careful with the "calling tomorrow" plan. 

 

Are we mandated for adults?  I thought that only applied for kids - or adults potentially abusing kids.

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I just looked up PA.  It appears to be kids.  It was worth checking, so I appreciate your heads up.

 

http://www.pa-fsa.org/Mandated-Reporters/Understanding-Mandated-Reporting/Who-are-Mandated-Reporters

 

That's a description of the law for mandated reporters for CPS. It doesn't mention APS at all.

 

Having said that, I did look up the APS laws for PA, and they apparently have a list of facilities where employees are mandated, and strangely, schools are not on the list.  Given that most 18 - 21 years old with significant disabilities attend schools, and would be covered by APS, not CPS, I find that horrifying.  

 

I'd still call, but that's just me.

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Good idea... hopefully it would be able to be anonymous because I'd rather not get in trouble with "the family," but seriously, there has to be something better when we're not around.  Better for both of them.  I completely understand the frustration FIL must have taking care of her 24/7.  Her needs at this stage are very high (can't eat well, can't control body functions well, etc).  But she shouldn't have to endure slaps.  Even if one believes in spanking for children, it's for "willful disobedience."  There's no "willful disobedience" with MIL.  She seriously can't remember how to get dressed, etc.

Slapping or hitting someone (whether a child or an adult) across the face or on the head is not "spanking" and is abuse whether there is wilful disobedience or not.  I realize that this is a small point when you are already looking at places to call for help but I felt like it was important to point out.  Her fear of being "knocked in the head" is very troubling. 

 

 

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That's a description of the law for mandated reporters for CPS. It doesn't mention APS at all.

 

Having said that, I did look up the APS laws for PA, and they apparently have a list of facilities where employees are mandated, and strangely, schools are not on the list.  Given that most 18 - 21 years old with significant disabilities attend schools, and would be covered by APS, not CPS, I find that horrifying.  

 

I'd still call, but that's just me.

 

That was the site we were given if we had any doubts about anything...

 

But still, I'm glad your research matched what we were told/given.

 

And I am still planning on calling tomorrow - when I can hopefully do so to get an anonymous "whatever" going.

 

 

Slapping or hitting someone (whether a child or an adult) across the face or on the head is not "spanking" and is abuse whether there is wilful disobedience or not.  I realize that this is a small point when you are already looking at places to call for help but I felt like it was important to point out.  Her fear of being "knocked in the head" is very troubling. 

 

I fully agree with you.  Her "new" fear coupled with hearing what I'm pretty positive was a slap this morning (and his verbal "directions" along with their tone) is why I've been feeling pretty miserable thinking I couldn't do anything.

 

The comparison to spanking is mainly what I think FIL is thinking - not what I'm thinking.  He knows she's like a child... and is likely treating her like he treated his kids (perfectly acceptable in his day).

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So sorry.  It does sound like a miserable position to be put in.  I'm glad the Hive has got some good ideas.

 

hugs.

 

Thanks.  I have more hope than I had before.  Time will tell if anything comes to pass from it.

 

What bugs me the most (well, other than the slap) is the way she is often treated.  They tell me she won't remember anyway.  That's true, but she can still live in the "now" at the moment - for many things anyway.  She enjoys boat rides.  She enjoys some sitcoms.  She likes having her questions answered.  She enjoys small tasks.  She doesn't like when they talk harshly to her or make fun of her, but that seems to be the norm now with FIL.  He seems to get a kick out of her "strange" or incorrect answers and purposely sets her up so he can laugh.  (sigh)

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I care.  She hated me when she was in her right mind... She's racist (sadly that hasn't changed) and I wouldn't agree with her.  "I" took her son from the only "correct" Christian church (Methodist) and we worshiped in many others.  I didn't raise my kids correctly (FTO).  I didn't keep my house clean enough (she was super clean).  There are other similar things.  NOW she loves me, but there was a time she outright told hubby he should divorce me and another time she threw flowers we'd brought her for Mother's Day into my face before I ever got out of the car.

 

How times change.  She loves me and I want the best for her (and FIL).  I feel for her.  Alzheimer's sucks.

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Thanks.  I have more hope than I had before.  Time will tell if anything comes to pass from it.

 

What bugs me the most (well, other than the slap) is the way she is often treated.  They tell me she won't remember anyway.  That's true, but she can still live in the "now" at the moment - for many things anyway.  She enjoys boat rides.  She enjoys some sitcoms.  She likes having her questions answered.  She enjoys small tasks.  She doesn't like when they talk harshly to her or make fun of her, but that seems to be the norm now with FIL.  He seems to get a kick out of her "strange" or incorrect answers and purposely sets her up so he can laugh.  (sigh)

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I care.  She hated me when she was in her right mind... She's racist (sadly that hasn't changed) and I wouldn't agree with her.  "I" took her son from the only "correct" Christian church (Methodist) and we worshiped in many others.  I didn't raise my kids correctly (FTO).  I didn't keep my house clean enough (she was super clean).  There are other similar things.  NOW she loves me, but there was a time she outright told hubby he should divorce me and another time she threw flowers we'd brought her for Mother's Day into my face before I ever got out of the car.

 

How times change.  She loves me and I want the best for her (and FIL).  I feel for her.  Alzheimer's sucks.

I liked this post because you are rising above your past and doing the right thing.  No matter what happened in the past, you are being true to who you are and still being kind, protective and loving to her.  No matter what, you will Not regret being true to yourself and following your conscious.  Yep, she was a witch with a capital B to you, but instead of returning that treatment in the same manner, you are caring for her like a human being, your husband's mother, your children's grandmother.  And when she passes, you are not going to regret being kind....but you would regret using her medical-induced-innocence to get even with her for the things she did to you. You are being a phenomenal role model for your children. The kindness you are showing here, is what legacy you are passing on to your future generations.  

 

(((ihugs)))) I know it is hard to let go of the past, but maybe now you can form a few positive memories for you, your husband and your children to help you through this difficult time. 

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Thanks.  I have more hope than I had before.  Time will tell if anything comes to pass from it.

 

What bugs me the most (well, other than the slap) is the way she is often treated.  They tell me she won't remember anyway.  That's true, but she can still live in the "now" at the moment - for many things anyway.  She enjoys boat rides.  She enjoys some sitcoms.  She likes having her questions answered.  She enjoys small tasks.  She doesn't like when they talk harshly to her or make fun of her, but that seems to be the norm now with FIL.  He seems to get a kick out of her "strange" or incorrect answers and purposely sets her up so he can laugh.  (sigh)

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I care.  She hated me when she was in her right mind... She's racist (sadly that hasn't changed) and I wouldn't agree with her.  "I" took her son from the only "correct" Christian church (Methodist) and we worshiped in many others.  I didn't raise my kids correctly (FTO).  I didn't keep my house clean enough (she was super clean).  There are other similar things.  NOW she loves me, but there was a time she outright told hubby he should divorce me and another time she threw flowers we'd brought her for Mother's Day into my face before I ever got out of the car.

 

How times change.  She loves me and I want the best for her (and FIL).  I feel for her.  Alzheimer's sucks.

 

Oh my lord!! Wow.  How awful. 

 

How we treat others who are weaker or distressed in our care says a lot about who we are as a human being.  Yes, your MIL won't remember, but still... what kind of person is this changing your FIL into?   Scary stuff.

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My MIL, who has dementia, also loves me now that she's forgotten how much she hated me.  I know that some people get meaner.  She got nicer. 

 

Same here. MIL and I grew quite close over the past four years when she was battling dementia.  It made it much easier to care for her, I'll fess up to that.  I made ten trips (1000+ miles one way!) to spend time caring for her this year. So yeah, those 100 days I spent with her were made a lot easier because she was sweet to me. Made it easier for me to wipe her butt and do other care she needed. 

 

I'm so grateful she didn't get meaner to me. I know some people do that and it would have been pretty tough. 

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Thanks. I have more hope than I had before. Time will tell if anything comes to pass from it.

 

What bugs me the most (well, other than the slap) is the way she is often treated. They tell me she won't remember anyway. That's true, but she can still live in the "now" at the moment - for many things anyway. She enjoys boat rides. She enjoys some sitcoms. She likes having her questions answered. She enjoys small tasks. She doesn't like when they talk harshly to her or make fun of her, but that seems to be the norm now with FIL. He seems to get a kick out of her "strange" or incorrect answers and purposely sets her up so he can laugh. (sigh)

 

Sometimes I ask myself why I care. She hated me when she was in her right mind... She's racist (sadly that hasn't changed) and I wouldn't agree with her. "I" took her son from the only "correct" Christian church (Methodist) and we worshiped in many others. I didn't raise my kids correctly (FTO). I didn't keep my house clean enough (she was super clean). There are other similar things. NOW she loves me, but there was a time she outright told hubby he should divorce me and another time she threw flowers we'd brought her for Mother's Day into my face before I ever got out of the car.

 

How times change. She loves me and I want the best for her (and FIL). I feel for her. Alzheimer's sucks.

This is sounding more and more abusive to me with each post. I'd look into getting her placement in a nursing home with an Alzheimer's unit. I got a sick feeling in my stomach reading that he mocks her like that.
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This is sounding more and more abusive to me with each post. I'd look into getting her placement in a nursing home with an Alzheimer's unit. I got a sick feeling in my stomach reading that he mocks her like that.

I'm on my phone right now so can't add likes, but I wanted everyone to know I just had a great in depth talk with hubby and he's firmly in agreement with me. Better than that, he had his own in depth talk with FIL and he now admits he needs help and is afraid he might be abusing her at times... He knows it's become more than he can handle and is open to change.

 

Hubby is willing to make the phone calls tomorrow and I will hope they can find assistance quickly. He's going to call the Elder Care number first.

 

Thanks again Hive. I will be adding likes sometime tomorrow when I can get on my computer. I am very thankful for the suggestions and support - so much better than a JCWM thread!

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My MIL, who has dementia, also loves me now that she's forgotten how much she hated me. I know that some people get meaner. She got nicer.

My husband's grandma has as well. She's still blunt but she forgot all the poison she kept in herself for so long. Funny how that can work.

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((Hugs))

Also find your local chapter of the Alzheimer's Associatioin

http://m.alz.org/find-your-local-chapter.asp

Because they will have local resources, support groups, steps to take etc.- in addition to everything PPs have said above.

Talking with them on the phone helped us immeasurably when MIL needed to go into a memory care facility. I love them.

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