Need Kindergarten math suggestions :/

[Southern Ivy]

Math U See is NOT jiving here. I'm going to give it another week or so just to see if it clicks, but right now, it's a 'no'.
I'm not really sure what the issue is, except she's not grasping the whole concept of the base blocks. She has to count each square on the 10s to figure out it's 10, etc. 

What other math programs would you suggest for Kindergarten? 
She loves hands on, but we can easily incorporate that with counting bears, etc. 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Southern Ivy

[maize]

Personally I'd drop the formal program for kindy and just do hands on activities to develop number sense.

 

If you do want a program you could try Singapore Earlybird.

Edited August 28, 2017 by maize

[OneStepAtATime]

Agreeing with Maize.

[Mrs. Tharp]

Yeah, sometimes the blocks don't help at all. They didn't for my two--MUS was a bust with both of them. What are her particular learning challenges?

 

 R&S worked well for my oldest. They don't have a K curriculum for math, but their 1st grade is very gentle. It gives lots of practice, which you can tailor to your own needs. Conceptual math might be fun, but I've heard the Singapore K curriculum is geared more towards classroom teaching. Maybe someone else can pitch in with other conceptual math options for that age.

 

Or you could just do your own thing. Kindy math can be very gentle and fun with living books and manipulatives. 

[Southern Ivy]

Thanks! It makes me nervous to not do a program, but I AM an educated adult. I could figure it out. 

[Mrs. Tharp]

R&S is inexpensive. You could do your own thing and have that around as backup. 

[Mommyof1]

I using Ray's Arithmetic with my prek. It's free online to print.

 

I have a friend who used Saxon in kindergarten.

 

It is easy to do without curriculum too. Some days I use problems from Ray's and sometimes not.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Mommyof1

[Southern Ivy]

Yeah, sometimes the blocks don't help at all. They didn't for my two--MUS was a bust with both of them. What are her particular learning challenges?

 

 R&S worked well for my oldest. They don't have a K curriculum for math, but their 1st grade is very gentle. It gives lots of practice, which you can tailor to your own needs. Conceptual math might be fun, but I've heard the Singapore K curriculum is geared more towards classroom teaching. Maybe someone else can pitch in with other conceptual math options for that age.

 

Or you could just do your own thing. Kindy math can be very gentle and fun with living books and manipulatives. 

ADHD, SPD, highly suspecting APD; there may or may not be other processing disorders - her ADHD was so out of control during the testing that we couldn't get a definitive answer on some things. We're doing speech (working on her language deficiency and processing multi-step directions) and OT. Hopefully, these will help for next year when we reevaluate. (Sorry - a lot of info for one simple question. ha)

We also apparently have some some visual challenges, but I'm waiting on the OT to score the evaluation (I'll hear the outcome on Wednesday). 

 

Yeah, I'm feeling like the blocks are completely distracting/confusing her and she's pretty good with general number sense generally. So, who knows! 

[Southern Ivy]

R&S is inexpensive. You could do your own thing and have that around as backup. 

 

I using Ray's Arithmetic with my prek. It's free online to print.

 

I have a friend who used Saxon in kindergarten.

 

It is easy to do without curriculum too. Some days I use problems from Ray's and sometimes not.

Thank you both. :D I'll look at those. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Good luck!  

[Southern Ivy]

Good luck!  

Thanks. 

I think I just have to keep reminding myself that what/how/when she learns something is going to look completely different than her friends at school. 

I'll remember slowly but surely. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks. 

I think I just have to keep reminding myself that what/how/when she learns something is going to look completely different than her friends at school. 

I'll remember slowly but surely. 

LOL.  Yeah, I'm still reminding me of that too.  :)

[Daria]

Thanks. 

I think I just have to keep reminding myself that what/how/when she learns something is going to look completely different than her friends at school. 

I'll remember slowly but surely. 

 

Is she in school? 

 

I ask because if she is, and you're afterschooling, then it would make sense to find something that meshes with what they're doing. 

 

Otherwise, I agree that Saxon K is gentle, and very hands on.  

[PeterPan]

We did Saxon K5 math, but it's worthless for math disability, which is what you're describing. I would get the Ronit Bird ebooks, starting with Dots, and get the Peggy Kaye Games for Math. But start with RB and work completely through Dots before you even bother with the Peggy Kaye book, honestly. PK has a higher starting point. I'm using her books with ds right now, like fastidiously. I have all the titles from the library (Reading, Math, Learning, Writing, I forget), and I just keep pulling games. They're AMAZING, AMAZING, AMAZING. But if she is where my ds was, even that's too high right now. Dots will be brilliant and you'll love it. And it's like $10 in iTunes.

Edited August 28, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll just be frank. I wouldn't do a printed math curriculum with her, because it sounds like the issue is number sense. That's a learning disability, so you need something meant for math disability. She's not low IQ. She's actually probably BRILLIANT, but she's either having really severe visual memory problems or number sense issues. And to me it sounds like number sense. 

 

So please don't do a regular, printed math to her. All it does is encourage her to memorize gibberish, not understand things, and not be able to GENERALIZE. Until she generalizes and has a sense of 10-ness and that 10 means something EVERYWHERE, she's still struggling, kwim? Doesn't matter if she can memorize 10 for one worksheet in one context. You have to do it lots of ways, lots of manipulatives, until it clicks.

 

Ronit Bird is not meant for ID. Some kids have ID, and people will go ok my kid struggled with math and xyz worked for him! My kid doesn't have ID. He's brilliant with significant learning disabilities. So use stuff meant for your issue, not someone else's issue, kwim? The materials HAVE to get to the heart of number sense. And RB does it in the teeniest tiniest steps I've seen.

[Southern Ivy]

Is she in school? 

 

I ask because if she is, and you're afterschooling, then it would make sense to find something that meshes with what they're doing. 

 

Otherwise, I agree that Saxon K is gentle, and very hands on.  

Nope. We are homeschooling. 

[Southern Ivy]

We did Saxon K5 math, but it's worthless for math disability, which is what you're describing. I would get the Ronit Bird ebooks, starting with Dots, and get the Peggy Kaye Games for Math. But start with RB and work completely through Dots before you even bother with the Peggy Kaye book, honestly. PK has a higher starting point. I'm using her books with ds right now, like fastidiously. I have all the titles from the library (Reading, Math, Learning, Writing, I forget), and I just keep pulling games. They're AMAZING, AMAZING, AMAZING. But if she is where my ds was, even that's too high right now. Dots will be brilliant and you'll love it. And it's like $10 in iTunes.

 

 

Ok, I'll just be frank. I wouldn't do a printed math curriculum with her, because it sounds like the issue is number sense. That's a learning disability, so you need something meant for math disability. She's not low IQ. She's actually probably BRILLIANT, but she's either having really severe visual memory problems or number sense issues. And to me it sounds like number sense. 

 

So please don't do a regular, printed math to her. All it does is encourage her to memorize gibberish, not understand things, and not be able to GENERALIZE. Until she generalizes and has a sense of 10-ness and that 10 means something EVERYWHERE, she's still struggling, kwim? Doesn't matter if she can memorize 10 for one worksheet in one context. You have to do it lots of ways, lots of manipulatives, until it clicks.

 

Ronit Bird is not meant for ID. Some kids have ID, and people will go ok my kid struggled with math and xyz worked for him! My kid doesn't have ID. He's brilliant with significant learning disabilities. So use stuff meant for your issue, not someone else's issue, kwim? The materials HAVE to get to the heart of number sense. And RB does it in the teeniest tiniest steps I've seen.

Thanks. I'll look into those. :D 

I am not sure about it being a number sense issue. The girl has added in her head in the car - simple adding like "If you, me and daddy are home, that's three people and if Nana and KooKoo (grandpa) come, then it's 5." From what I've read, it doesn't sound like an issue with number sense, but I could very well be wrong. I may look up more examples and compare, though. 

 

The OT was checking some things with her visual processing. From what I observed, she bombed whatever test he did, but I won't have the results until Wednesday. 

[kbutton]

IF you get the processing results back for vision or whatever, and you determine that her number sense is intact, you might want to try the first Miquon book. I think they are usually around $6 plus c-rods (traditional ones). It's not wordy. It shows relationships visually. 

 

You might also check out Education Unboxed.

 

If you are dealing with really severe ADHD plus auditory processing (and/or visual processing issues), it's really difficult to do anything that involves directions. 

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird knows of a new number sense test. It's a new thing. You could write her through her FB page.

 

She sounds like she's counting in your example. Shes very bright so even with an SLD she might be very math bright conceptually and with problem solving.

[PeterPan]

And maybe it's all visual. That would be good because it's treatable. The test RB had a link to was free. There isn't one otherwise. Psychs look at discrepancy.

 

The first psych blew off my ds at that age saying he was "fine" on the achievement testing. A few months later two different psychs agreed SLD math. There is no test they use so they're waiting for it to become obvious.

[Mrs. Tharp]

From what you are saying, R&S math would not be appropriate for her--too repetitive. If games are not too distracting, a program like RightStart might be fun for both of you. If I could start over again with my ADHD son, that's probably what I would pick. 

 

Here's the link: https://rightstartmath.com/

[PeterPan]

I used RightStart with my ADHD dd, liked it a lot, and even repped for them at some conventions. It was really good stuff, great mathematical thinking, and I think very fondly on our time with it. When ds was starting, I got him the new edition RS A, and it was so NOT within reach. Honestly, if MUS isn't within reach, RS won't be either. Maybe. RS has a few things it does better than MUS, so sure we can say that the wonders of RS would be enough different that it would solve your problem. 

 

Most kids without an SLD can learn with ANY math. They might learn BETTER with one math or another, but it's not like the dc is just so totally, totally not getting it. When you are using MUS, you're already at a pretty significant hand-holding, really visual, really focused on visualizing the math kind of thing. Yes, RightStart is a little better at that. We could sit here and parse the ways. But what you're describing is what happened with my ds. He got through most of Saxon K5 btw. We really enjoyed it! And we did some Ronit Bird Dots, and that first psych was like WHAT ARE YOU GRIPING ABOUT??? Only he was related to a donkey didn't say it that way. His middle name was JERK. 

 

Ronit Bird makes RightStart look like rocket science, I kid you not. When you're teaching a dc without a disability, programs like MUS or RS seem like they flow well, and they do! But they still make leaps and assume things. When you get to RB, she assumes NOTHING. She makes those steps so teeny tiny, no leaps, that the kid finally GETS it. 

 

Just try it and see. We're talking a $10 ebook, not a huge expenditure. Or don't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying a dc who can't grasp 10 is 10 consistently on a rod isn't going to do any better just because you jump over to visualizing 5 and 7 and 8 and 10 on abacus beads with colors. It's going to be just as hard and just as much not go well.

[PeterPan]

I found the link in an email I saved from RB. :)

 

https://www.numeracyscreener.org/home.html

 

That should have the math number sense test.

[PeterPan]

One of Peggy Kaye's books has this interesting demonstration where she's looking at, um, who's the dude, Piaget ? I forget. Anyways, she talks about and shows pictures of how a sense of quantity (not so much numeracy but just plain quantity) develops in ALL kids. It was interesting. I think it was the math book. I thought oh no, ds won't have problems with that! And then today we were playing a game with coins and subtracting, and he comments that this is a LOT more money on his side (because it has more coins and looks visually bigger) than what I had with dimes and more efficient coins.

 

So I really like the PK stuff. She apparently taught in some kind of charter school for SN, and her stuff is just so intuitive for where ds is at right now and what he'd enjoy. Some of it might have been fine earlier. He's so ageless (or slow to mature) in some ways, that some things are good over a range or better later, much later.

[Southern Ivy]

I found the link in an email I saved from RB. :)

 

https://www.numeracyscreener.org/home.html

 

That should have the math number sense test.

Rockstar! :D 

[Southern Ivy]

I used RightStart with my ADHD dd, liked it a lot, and even repped for them at some conventions. It was really good stuff, great mathematical thinking, and I think very fondly on our time with it. When ds was starting, I got him the new edition RS A, and it was so NOT within reach. Honestly, if MUS isn't within reach, RS won't be either. Maybe. RS has a few things it does better than MUS, so sure we can say that the wonders of RS would be enough different that it would solve your problem. 

 

Most kids without an SLD can learn with ANY math. They might learn BETTER with one math or another, but it's not like the dc is just so totally, totally not getting it. When you are using MUS, you're already at a pretty significant hand-holding, really visual, really focused on visualizing the math kind of thing. Yes, RightStart is a little better at that. We could sit here and parse the ways. But what you're describing is what happened with my ds. He got through most of Saxon K5 btw. We really enjoyed it! And we did some Ronit Bird Dots, and that first psych was like WHAT ARE YOU GRIPING ABOUT??? Only he was related to a donkey didn't say it that way. His middle name was JERK. 

 

Ronit Bird makes RightStart look like rocket science, I kid you not. When you're teaching a dc without a disability, programs like MUS or RS seem like they flow well, and they do! But they still make leaps and assume things. When you get to RB, she assumes NOTHING. She makes those steps so teeny tiny, no leaps, that the kid finally GETS it. 

 

Just try it and see. We're talking a $10 ebook, not a huge expenditure. Or don't. I could be wrong. I'm just saying a dc who can't grasp 10 is 10 consistently on a rod isn't going to do any better just because you jump over to visualizing 5 and 7 and 8 and 10 on abacus beads with colors. It's going to be just as hard and just as much not go well.

So, I feel like an idiot, but I looked at the books and they're for purchase through iTunes. I don't have an iPad anymore. I can just pull the books up on my computer, right? 

[PeterPan]

If it's a mac. Or on an iphone. 

 

I know, it would be nice if iBooks worked on android.

[Southern Ivy]

If it's a mac. Or on an iphone. 

 

I know, it would be nice if iBooks worked on android.

Gag. I don't want to do the whole book on my phone. :(  Oh well. I may have to. I do want to look into the Dots book. 

[PeterPan]

I would do that numeracy test *before* you do anything from Dots. Once I saw the numeracy test, I realized Dots was intervening on the very things it tests for. And like I said this isn't like dyslexia with a CTOPP, where you get a really concrete number and go yes, that's it. That's what this numeracy (number sense) test is trying to address.

 

The math disability, if it's there, because obvious over again, even as you intervene. It's not like you'll make it poof. But a psych using achievement testing might says she tests pretty well at this age. There's just so little they have to do to be age-appropriate. It becomes more obvious with time. The numeracy test would be informative and gives you a snapshot of where she was pre-intervention.

[Southern Ivy]

I would do that numeracy test *before* you do anything from Dots. Once I saw the numeracy test, I realized Dots was intervening on the very things it tests for. And like I said this isn't like dyslexia with a CTOPP, where you get a really concrete number and go yes, that's it. That's what this numeracy (number sense) test is trying to address.

 

The math disability, if it's there, because obvious over again, even as you intervene. It's not like you'll make it poof. But a psych using achievement testing might says she tests pretty well at this age. There's just so little they have to do to be age-appropriate. It becomes more obvious with time. The numeracy test would be informative and gives you a snapshot of where she was pre-intervention.

She scored 52% in the symbolic (identifying which number is bigger). It's only 2 minutes, so she just wasn't speedy enough, I think. 

She scored 42% in the non-symbolic (just visually determining which group is bigger). The more there were in each group (nine dots of varying size vs 8 dots of varying size) she just gave up and just went through and marked stuff. Bless.  :cursing:

 

ETA: I may do the non-symbolic again tomorrow and see if she does the same. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Southern Ivy

[Megbo]

For a hands-on learner, I would pick up some Cuisenaire rods (like these or these, not the ones with lines or that connect) and play around with them for a few months. Check out the preschool/kindergarten videos on EducationUnboxed.com, and then move on to the first Miquon book if she's enjoying working with the rods.

 

We didn't use MUS for long, but I think it is fairly normal and age-appropriate to count each square on the blocks for a while. I know Ds7 (who doesn't have an LD in math) did. With Cuisenaire rods, he internalized the value of each rod much more quickly. 

[Mrs. Tharp]

She scored 52% in the symbolic (identifying which number is bigger). It's only 2 minutes, so she just wasn't speedy enough, I think. 

She scored 42% in the non-symbolic (just visually determining which group is bigger). The more there were in each group (nine dots of varying size vs 8 dots of varying size) she just gave up and just went through and marked stuff. Bless.  :cursing:

 

ETA: I may do the non-symbolic again tomorrow and see if she does the same. 

 

Keep in mind that her ability to focus affects how well she does. Kids with ADHD are notorious for performing poorly on timed tests. Also, if she is fatiguing on the number of problems in the test, you may want to reduce the number you give her and prorate her score. That can also be a way to tell if the problem is the ADHD or a possible math disability. 

 

ETA again to add: If it's just ADHD, I think RS math would still be a good choice, but it is expensive. Some of the other choices mentioned might work just as well, for a lot less money. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Mrs. Tharp

[Southern Ivy]

Keep in mind that her ability to focus affects how well she does. Kids with ADHD are notorious for performing poorly on timed tests. Also, if she is fatiguing on the number of problems in the test, you may want to reduce the number you give her and prorate her score. That can also be a way to tell if the problem is the ADHD or a possible math disability. 

 

ETA again to add: If it's just ADHD, I think RS math would still be a good choice, but it is expensive. Some of the other choices mentioned might work just as well, for a lot less money. 

That's kind of what I'm thinking - I'm going to do some on Thursday and break it up to see how she does. I know it's not "kosher" but if she can do the problems, just not as super quick as what they have, I think it's more attention to detail and attention span than not understanding. 

Heck, I even had to count some of the squares in the non-symbolic group to determine if it was more or less! 

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm looking over the test. I didn't find the scoring tool yet, so I don't know how to interpret those percentages. What I think you should do is do the OTHER form (B, A, whichever you did not administer) on a different day when she is fresh. Today is Tuesday, so I like your idea of Thursday. Let it drop, go to the park, enjoy life. Then Thursday, administer the other form and use ADHD-appropriate accommodations. Even for what you did today, I would have continued letting her take the test and simply changed colors (pencil to red pencil, whatever) at the 2 minute mark. That would have given you useful data.

 

Normal accommodation for ADHD is time and a half. It's almost unheard of to get more. My dd, with pretty nasty ADHD, has seldom, seldom, seldom needed that. Only in areas where she is borderline disability (writing, very hard for her to get stuff out) does she need extra time. So personally I'm very slow to jump on the oh she's just slow bandwagon. But I agree, there are a lot of problems (tasks) on the page! So that's where you want data. 

 

Since you're going to do it again, I think what I'd do is make a *tick* on the page at the 2 minute mark, let her go to three minutes, still in the original color, then *switch* colors and let her complete the test. It's much better psychology to finish the test. So let her finish it, but mark where she's at at 2 minutes and 3 minutes. That way you can analyze it better.

 

Also, if you are confident she has ADHD as part of the mix, are meds on the table? Was she having trouble attending? ADHD doesn't always have wicked low processing speed. It can be wicked low, but it doesn't have to be. In general, I think that test is probably easy for a child for whom it is easy. I think our perspective gets skewed because we're so used to our kids. It's like when my ds failed the Barton pre-test and Barton was like no, any 5 yo with no disability could have done that. I had no clue. And same gig with the narrative language assessments my ds has had. I didn't realize how off he was, because I was used to him.

 

Did you surf around there to see if they *normed* their tool? Obviously a tool is more useful when it's normed. So I don't know what "senior kindergardener" means to know if your dc is matching their population and then what an appropriate score would be. You'd like to know the average and the standard deviation to see discrepancy. A percentage right or completed doesn't actually tell you discrepancy.

 

Given the way the test is set up, are they kicking out scores for *errors* as opposed to completion? Or does their scoring seem to assume all their target population was completing the test in the 2 minutes? You might just write them and ask. People are usually happy to talk about their products. :D

 

So on the percentage scores you gave, what of the remaining was error and what was unattempted due to lack of time?

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Edited August 29, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I'm playing around with the scoring tool on the Num website. It looks like it's not age-adjusted, which I take to mean that, like Barton's pretest, a dc of the appropriate age should just be able to do it. It also looks like the scores you're getting are within the bell curve. Now they're not, most likely, IQ-appropriate. If there significant discrepancy between IQ and achievement, that's something they look for. 

 

It doesn't like it's normed the way something like the WISC or WIAT or WJIII or something is kwim? Those are really nitpicking normings. It almost looks like they just threw EVERYBODY's data into the pot and stirred. But you could write them and ask, kwim? 

[Southern Ivy]

never mind 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Southern Ivy

[Southern Ivy]

Ok, I'm looking over the test. I didn't find the scoring tool yet, so I don't know how to interpret those percentages. What I think you should do is do the OTHER form (B, A, whichever you did not administer) on a different day when she is fresh. Today is Tuesday, so I like your idea of Thursday. Let it drop, go to the park, enjoy life. Then Thursday, administer the other form and use ADHD-appropriate accommodations. Even for what you did today, I would have continued letting her take the test and simply changed colors (pencil to red pencil, whatever) at the 2 minute mark. That would have given you useful data.

 

Normal accommodation for ADHD is time and a half. It's almost unheard of to get more. My dd, with pretty nasty ADHD, has seldom, seldom, seldom needed that. Only in areas where she is borderline disability (writing, very hard for her to get stuff out) does she need extra time. So personally I'm very slow to jump on the oh she's just slow bandwagon. But I agree, there are a lot of problems (tasks) on the page! So that's where you want data. 

 

Since you're going to do it again, I think what I'd do is make a *tick* on the page at the 2 minute mark, let her go to three minutes, still in the original color, then *switch* colors and let her complete the test. It's much better psychology to finish the test. So let her finish it, but mark where she's at at 2 minutes and 3 minutes. That way you can analyze it better.

 

Also, if you are confident she has ADHD as part of the mix, are meds on the table? Was she having trouble attending? ADHD doesn't always have wicked low processing speed. It can be wicked low, but it doesn't have to be. In general, I think that test is probably easy for a child for whom it is easy. I think our perspective gets skewed because we're so used to our kids. It's like when my ds failed the Barton pre-test and Barton was like no, any 5 yo with no disability could have done that. I had no clue. And same gig with the narrative language assessments my ds has had. I didn't realize how off he was, because I was used to him.

 

Did you surf around there to see if they *normed* their tool? Obviously a tool is more useful when it's normed. So I don't know what "senior kindergardener" means to know if your dc is matching their population and then what an appropriate score would be. You'd like to know the average and the standard deviation to see discrepancy. A percentage right or completed doesn't actually tell you discrepancy.

 

Given the way the test is set up, are they kicking out scores for *errors* as opposed to completion? Or does their scoring seem to assume all their target population was completing the test in the 2 minutes? You might just write them and ask. People are usually happy to talk about their products. :D

 

So on the percentage scores you gave, what of the remaining was error and what was unattempted due to lack of time?

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She scored a 38/56 on the symbolic. Attempted 40/56. Timed out on 16. 

The non-symbolic was a higher "attempt", but as I mentioned earlier, she was just marking at the end and not even looking (something she did on the vision test with the OT when she was frustrated). For the non-symbolic, she scored a 36/56. Had she actually tried, she would probably have timed out on about 16 of them as well. 

I am positive she has ADHD. We're waiting on a drs appt to discuss meds. She did very well on the beginning portion (symbol

 

 

Also, can you see the B Version of the test? I can only see A version. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Southern Ivy

[PeterPan]

Try a different browser. That site worked better on google chrome.