What is the difference between an AP class and a university class?

[lewelma]

I think my last post was too detailed with my specific problems, so I'm going to try again with a more general question.

 

I know that an AP course is supposed to be equivalent to a university course and that *some* universities will give credit for them.  I also know that you cannot say it is an AP course unless you get permission from the college board.  I know that courses taken in high school at a university are put on the transcript with the university course number and I know that in America they count as dual enrollment giving credit for both university (sometimes) and high school graduation.

 

I know all that.  Most of it does not apply to my situation because I'm in NZ, and we don't have dual enrollment, don't have AP courses, and none of my ds's universities will take AP courses for credit.

 

So what I am trying to figure out is how do you indicate on a transcript that a course your child has self studied is at a university level but was not an AP and was not at a university?   

 

I also would like to know how university courses are generally weighted in the GPA.  Do they count as a 5 on a 4 point scale just like APs and honors?

 

I need to understand this because ds will be applying for scholarships that will weight grades so I need to indicate on his transcript what courses were at a higher level.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

[Laura Corin]

What do US universities say about NZ qualifications?  ETA: are there exams that he could take to validate the course?  Some US universities seem to know what to do with A levels, for example, by considering them roughly equivalent to APs.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Laura Corin

[regentrude]

I do not think there really is a way to indicate "self studied at university level" besides calling it "Honors" and explaining in your course descriptions.

 

AP is standardized and colleges know what they get, and a college class also means some level of accountability.

I don't know how university courses are weighted, because I only submitted an unweighted transcript.

Edited August 22, 2017 by regentrude

[Kathy in Richmond]

Hi Ruth,

 

My son's transcript had columns labeled Course, Grade, Credits, and Type. Under Type I placed either H, AP, or Col. In a box below the main part of the transcript, I had the following:

 

Key: H=Honors, AP=Advanced Placement, Col = College level.

 

I know this is a decade-old example, but my son applied to many of the same schools, and he also self-studied many upper level math courses.  I had no trouble marking "Col" for self taught courses like linear algebra, differential equations, or for the olympiad level AoPS classes. (Note: I did not give him credit for WOOT; rather, I listed it as an extracurricular.)

 

I did not weight grades.

 

 

 

 

[lewelma]

Thanks guys for the ideas, guys.

 

My understanding is that NZ qualifications are not recognized in the USA, like the A levels.  We talked to admissions people at 5 universities.  And only Waterloo in Canada used his NZ exam scores for straight forward entrance. The rest would look at ds's transcript globally for entrance and would not count NZ exams for credit in courses, and not even for placement at some places.  He will need to take placement exams.  There are just too many countries and too many exams for them to know what to do with all of them. 

 

I will NOT be providing a weighted GPA.  But it became very clear that one school in particular that has a full ride scholarship that ds is competitive for, will use their own formula to weight his GPA.  This means that I must provide guidance as to how to weight the grades.  This classification cannot be buried in the course descriptions. I must put it on the transcript in some fashion.  

 

As for university courses, ds will be doing Baby Rudin for Analysis this year, which is an honors level university course at elite universities.  If the weighting scale used by universities for scholarships counts university courses as higher than honors, then I need to indicate this math course level in some fashion.  Also, his post-secondary diploma in music is clearly university level, but won't be done at a university but rather through ABRSM. 

 

I can argue that NCEA level 3 at an excellence level is "AP equivalent." My sister who has been helping me felt very strongly that I need to give guidance to admissions as to how to interpret these classes, especially since ds is likely to get a homeschool reader rather than an international reader as he will be applying as an American citizen who is a homeschooler.

[lewelma]

My sister's school in KY has actually offered to give DS the AP exams if he wants to take them.  But ds has said no.  He would rather just take university placement exams or take the courses.  

[lewelma]

Kathy, that is exactly what I was thinking about doing.  I was thinking H, A, and U for honors, AP equivalent, and university level.  AP equivalent would be for the high school courses done at an Excellence level, and the University level courses would be for classes taken at a university, the ABRSM diploma, and self-studied high-level math courses. 

 

I agree, WOOT will be extracurricular.  However, when we were talking to the head of all the math departments, they definitely wanted his olympiad maths work to be separated into recognizable courses, so I am trying to decide how to do that on his transcript.  Some of the courses he just placed out of - like the proof writing course, and their 1st year linear algebra course, those I won't list.  But Calc 2, number theory, combinatorics, linear algebra, Analysis/topology/Algebra, and now a year of baby Rudin need to be on the transcript if he has a chance of placing out of some stuff without taking a pile of placement exams.  Some schools were way more strict than others as to allowing students to pick what they wanted to take vs taking exams to prove they were ready. 

[RootAnn]

In general, honors courses are weighted .5, AP is 1.0 and University courses are 1.0. However, this varies! (Here's just one College Confidential thread on the topic.)

[Kathy in Richmond]

Kathy, that is exactly what I was thinking about doing.  I was thinking H, A, and U for honors, AP equivalent, and university level.  AP equivalent would be for the high school courses done at an Excellence level, and the University level courses would be for classes taken at a university, the ABRSM diploma, and self-studied high-level math courses. 

 

I agree, WOOT will be extracurricular.  However, when we were talking to the head of all the math departments, they definitely wanted his olympiad maths work to be separated into recognizable courses, so I am trying to decide how to do that on his transcript.  Some of the courses he just placed out of - like the proof writing course, and their 1st year linear algebra course, those I won't list.  But Calc 2, number theory, combinatorics, linear algebra, Analysis/topology/Algebra, and now a year of baby Rudin need to be on the transcript if he has a chance of placing out of some stuff without taking a pile of placement exams.  Some schools were way more strict than others as to allowing students to pick what they wanted to take vs taking exams to prove they were ready.

 

 

Your proposal looks fine to me, Ruth! I think that you have to do something like that if you want the admissions offices to weight his grades properly. You're almost there now...good luck!

[Arcadia]

Also, his post-secondary diploma in music is clearly university level, but won't be done at a university but rather through ABRSM.

Locally ABRSM exams do not fulfill the fine arts credit. High school kids here use either their high school music course, or AP Music Theory exam score or dual enrollment at community college for music if they want to satisfy the fine arts credit using Music. It seems only one US university accepts ABRSM exams results. It's a non-issue for U.K. of course as they accept ABRSM results for college applications. We were considering the ABRSM exams route.

 

"Canada

 

ABRSM exams are approved as External Courses. Students at school in British Columbia can receive Grade (year) 10, 11 and 12 credits towards graduation from ABRSM qualifications.

 

ABRSM qualifications are classified as Foundation Studies (required topics) and at Grade 12 level count towards the eligible Grade 12 Graduation Program requirements.

...

USA

 

Lipscomb University adopted ABRSM exams as part of their Music Major degree program from 2006. Students are required to complete Grade 8 by the end of their sophomore year (second year) and DipABRSM performing or directing by the end of their senior year (fourth year) so that all music majors graduate with both a bachelor degree and a DipABRSM.

 

Students who enter already holding an ABRSM Grade 8 are encouraged to enter for the DipABRSM earlier and aim for an LRSM by the end of the degree course. The university also waive the live audition section of the application process for any prospective students who already hold ABRSM Grade 8 and award music majors who already hold ABRSM Grade 8 scholarships towards tuition fees." https://us.abrsm.org/en/our-exams/information-and-regulations/exam-regulation-and-ucas-points/

[lewelma]

I know, I'm almost there!

 

for AP equivalent: I was simply going to state in the school profile: that Level 3 NCEA courses done at an excellence level are equivalent to AP as they are a second year course in the subject, and only 10% of students gain excellence. (I could write a pile more to prove my point, but one admissions person told me not to bother, and they were the ones with the scholarship ds is interested in). Then I was going to superscript 'A' in front of level 3 courses on the transcript, with a footnote of "AP equivalent".

[lewelma]

Thanks Arcadia.  DS has no interest in trying to place out of his fine arts credit requirements.  In fact, he would like to minor in Music.  He is taking his DipABRSM exam in 2 months, but he will run out of time for the LRSM if he attends an American university instead of a NZ university because of the 6 months shift. 

 

We are using the ABRSM exam marks are verification of ds's mommy grades in music. 

 

The goal of indicating music was at a university level was to get his DipABRSM counted as a 5 instead of a 4.5 or a 4 in his GPA (or however they do it), for the purpose of the university weighting his grades for this scholarship.  

Edited August 22, 2017 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

I will NOT be providing a weighted GPA. But it became very clear that one school in particular that has a full ride scholarship that ds is competitive for, will use their own formula to weight his GPA. This means that I must provide guidance as to how to weight the grades. This classification cannot be buried in the course descriptions. I must put it on the transcript in some fashion.

Ruth, my dd had no AP or DE classes when she applied. (she took one DE class spring semester but that was after all applications had been submitted.)

 

I explained in my counselor letter and her course descriptions the level of work completed. Many of her self-studied courses were college level.

 

Schools must not have had a problem looking at her course descriptions bc she was awarded scholarships where the stats of the recipients were extremely high with weighted GPAs. They must have weighted based on my course descriptions vs standard designations. When decisions are holistic and committee based, I would not underestimate the weight of your teacher documents (counselor letter and course descriptions).

 

I would recommend stating things simply, though, and not overcomplicating them. Keep them concise and straightforward.

[Hoggirl]

 

I would recommend stating things simply, though, and not overcomplicating them. Keep them concise and straightforward.

I think this is excellent advice. I also think Kathy's way of outlining coursework is clear cut and easy to understand.

 

I don't want to overstep my bounds here since I did not homeschool ds all the way through high school. Thus, I never had to generate a transcript for him. Kudos to those of you who do such an excellent job with kids with all sorts of unique academic specialities, achievements, and talents. Ruth, I know you are one of those, and I know you face some unique situations with being a US applicant within a foreign system.

 

However, one thing that I think can apply regardless of where one is coming from is not looking like you are trying too hard. I think this is why 8's advice is spot on. I feel like the more you try to go into detail, the more - I don't know - maybe it looks you feel the need to justify how great he is??? Let his achievements speak for themselves. Think about how we are all taught not to make work resumés too long. I think it's important to remember that admissions folks and scholarship committee folks only have so much time. You don't want their eyes to glaze over from too much text. I hope that makes sense. I am in NO way suggesting you minimize all your ds's accomplishments. Gently saying - I just worry that page after page of info may overwhelm your readers and possibly disadvantage him.

 

With that last paragraph in mind, is it common on homeschool transcripts to list texts used? Wouldn't that help indicate the difficulty level as well? Idk - I'm asking!

[Bootsie]

Personally, I would not designate a self-study class as university level.  I would put information in a course description to describe the materials used and the type of work done, perhaps referring to the material as a college-level text.  I would not know right off what "university level" means.  Does a student who self studies algebra with a book used at ta university for College Algebra count as a "university level" course?  Also, what university is being used to measure the level?  Does it mean that the course materials that a second or third year math major at MIT is using?  Or, does it mean that course materials that freshmen general studies majors at Local Univ use for a math course?  I would designate it as "advanced" or "honors" 

[lewelma]

Thanks guys for the additional thoughts to ponder.  I was all set to leave all honors/AP classifications off his transcript, until ds had his interview with the admissions guy at the school with the full ride scholarships. After the interview, he brought me in, and I asked him if I could show him my draft paperwork.  He liked it- a LOT.  He especially liked my school profile and went on and on about how he wished all homeschoolers would make documents like mine.  I told him that I have some friends who told me what I needed to do.  And that was you guys!   :001_wub:  He was very clear that they did not want weighted grades and would weight them based on their own formula.  To me that said that without some indication of the level of the class, there would be no way to weight them.  I'm talking about $280,000 dollars in money.  If I need to add some sort of column like Kathy's to put my ds in the running, then I will, even though I'm not super sure I want to.  I seriously don't want to be wondering when he doesn't get the scholarship that it was because they did not know how to weight his grades!  He also told me not to include all the complexities of the NZ system.  I had left them off, but did explain them to him orally and asked him whether admissions would want to read it, he said no.  So definitely in agreement with you guys about keeping it simple.  My school profile is exactly 2 pages: 1/2 page on school philosophy and goals, 1/2 page on 10 educational partners, 1/2 pages on how we studied the different curriculum areas, and 1/2 page on grading/testing.  Transcript is a single page.  So I am being careful.  I have lots of questions here on the board, but I am certainly not putting all the answers down in writing in my paperwork!  That would be a book!

 

As for university-level courses, I guess you would have to know baby-Rudin to know that it is definitely a university-level course.  It is actually the book that is used in the infamous math 55 at Harvard. But the admissions people are not going to know that. 

 

As for textbooks, Princeton requires them, so I have included them in all of my course listings. 

 

MIT admissions said that they definitely want the counselor letter from me, and they made it clear what kind of stuff they want in the letter.  More of a what does ds's non-traditional education look like than a letter in support of my ds. So I've got to rewrite it completely.

 

I'm in the home stretch.... Just a few last minute decisions to make, and then I'm done!  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

I would call them Advanced xxx or put (H) for honors at the end in the course title. I would probably keep it very simple and place a * or something similar the column key and then define it as something like self-studied using college-level materials.

 

I personally would not put college anywhere in the course title or in the key itself. I would be concerned that with as used to DE as admissions officers are that they might look for college transcripts to verify the course if they didn't pay close enough attention to the fact that it was level and not actual course.

[lewelma]

Good points, 8.  There are arguments on each side. I think I still have the card for the admissions officer who interviewed ds at this one specific college.  I think I should ask him directly if they need me to classify courses H, AP, U-level for their own weighting formula

 

I'm not worried that they will confuse his actual university courses with his self directed university-level courses, because I've put the course number MA251 in front of the courses taken at the local uni, so they definitely stand out.  Plus I have 4 vendors that ds has formal grades from -- each of them have a code like RS for Royal School of Music and they have a superscript next to the course title.  So all homeschool courses have no superscript with a vendor.  Its pretty straightforward.  And my sister has acted as my "dummy" and cleaned up a lot to make sure it makes sense. And I will say to all the people who have used the grid formatted transcript, the one guy I showed my transcript to, loved the grid.  So thanks for passing it on, Regentrude. 

 

Question: Am I allowed to make 2 different transcripts, one with these course designations and one without?  It seems that the elite universities don't bother with that kind of thing, so it would be nice to give them a cleaner transcript for them. I'm just not clear if in America there is some legal something to a transcript, so maybe I can only have 1. Formally, DS has not graduated from a homeschool, rather he has a legal high school diploma from The NZ Qualifications Authority, so my homeschool transcript is just a summary/consolidation of many vendors. 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by lewelma