Testing for Intro to Algebra from Art of Problem Solving

[thelindulafamily]

Hello, this year we thought to try Introduction to Algebra by The Art of Problem Solving for my 8th grade daughter. The previous years we used Singapore Math. The Intro to Algebra comes with a text book and a workbook but no test book. Can anyone who is familiar with Art of Problem Solving's Introduction to Algebra suggest how I should do testing?

 

Thanks,

Joe

[bibiche]

There is a textbook and an answer book. The textbook  has review and challenge problems at the end of each chapter that you could use to verify that the student has mastered the concepts. 

[Targhee]

There is no workbook. There is the text and the solutions manual. Additionally there is Alcumus, the free (and high quality) adaptive question bank, and instructional videos. The program is top notch. Because Alcumus is adaptive I use it as a measure of competency. My kids need to get the topic bars into the blue to move on.

 

As an aside, we love AoPS! Have you done the placement test for Intro Algebra? Passing the placement is the bare minimum for being ready for the text. Also, allow your student some time to adapt to the AoPS approach. Having your student get 70-80% of the questions right, according to the author, means it's a good fit for your student. Expect them to really struggle with (or not be able to complete) a fair number of problems.

[regentrude]

I have shared the tests we have written for AoPS Inttro to Algebra a few years ago; search the board. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by regentrude

[Alice]

I haven't really used tests. If ds is getting most of the problems right in the review section I figure it's like a test. 

 

After the first half of the class, roughly through Chapter 13, I asked a friend who was an Algebra teacher in a private school if he had an exam I could use to give as a final exam. He graciously let me use his exam. I also liked that it was different slightly than AOPS which in  my mind was a better test for mastery of Algebra. 

 

On the AOPS website, if you go to the section for online classes, and then look at any particular class there is a link for Diagnostics. There is a short test for "Do you Need This?" and one called "Are You Ready?" You could use the Do you Need This one after a class as a brief test and the Are You Ready on for the next class (for example, the "Are You Ready" for Geometry tests Algebra concepts). That would give you an idea of whether or not the kid is mastering the material but wouldn't necessarily be what you are looking for if you want tests to have the grades. 

[Mike in SA]

We used challenge problems from the back of a community college beginning & intermediate algebra textbook, because they are harder than typical HS algebra books.

 

They were still absurdly easy after AoPS.

[snowbeltmom]

My kids work to mastery. In my experience with my 3 kids, the AoPS books provided more than enough chapter problems to ensure that they had mastered a topic without the need to create any additional tests.

[skimomma]

For those that do not "test," how do you determine a grade for the transcript.  We also work to mastery but I'm struggling to quantify.

[Targhee]

For those that do not "test," how do you determine a grade for the transcript. We also work to mastery but I'm struggling to quantify.

Very few if any institutions will accept parent given grades - too much room for bias and no oversight. I do not give out grades to my kids, though I do provide feedback (scores on quantitative things, and rubric grading as qualitative feedback as well). If an outside provider is accredited and gives grades I keep record of those.

 

Using Alcumus is a great way to get feedback while not actually assigning grades. If you wish to have a grade that is accepted by a university or other institution I suggest taking the AOPS classes, and they will at your request send a letter with qualitative commentary about your child's work in class as well as assign a letter grade.

[Mike in SA]

For those that do not "test," how do you determine a grade for the transcript. We also work to mastery but I'm struggling to quantify.

Mastery is an A. No questions about it - anything less would not be mastery.

[regentrude]

Very few if any institutions will accept parent given grades - too much room for bias and no oversight. 

 

None of the colleges my kids applied to had any issues with parent given grades. They alwys have standardized test scores as outside validation - if the parent grades are in line with the test performance and DE grades in a handful of subjects, nobody is questioning parent issued grades, not even in subjects without official tests or DE..

This also seems to be the experience of other parents on this board who sent homeschooled students to college. I cannot recall any user reporting colleges questioning parent issued grades.

Edited August 22, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Mastery is an A. No questions about it - anything less would not be mastery.

 

Yes, but I consider mastery only true mastery if accompanied by long term retention. This is why merely working the chapter problems when the chapter is studied is insufficient for me to ascertain true mastery; I require my students to be able to solve the problems at the end of the year, and that is why I give a cumulative final to determine mastery.

Edited August 22, 2017 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

For those that do not "test," how do you determine a grade for the transcript. We also work to mastery but I'm struggling to quantify.

If it is mastery than it's an A. However I do have SAT math subject test and AP scores to back that up.

 

Regentrude kindly shared the tests she wrote for her kids on this board. It's worth searching the boards.

 

Another way to "validate" for yourself is to use past Algebra 1 exams from your state.

E.g. NY Regents http://www.nysedregents.org/algebraone/

[skimomma]

Yes, but I consider mastery only true mastery if accompanied by long term retention. This is why merely working the chapter problems when the chapter is studied is insufficient for me to ascertain true mastery; I require my students to be able to solve the problems at the end of the year, and that is why I give a cumulative final to determine mastery.

 

Yes.  This is the root of my question.  I plan to use a cumulative final as well but wondered how others handle it.  And I also wonder what one is to do if you have worked to "mastery" all year but then the student performs poorly on the final? Without periodic testing, a student may not know they struggle with retention until the end of an entire year.   

[snowbeltmom]

Very few if any institutions will accept parent given grades - too much room for bias and no oversight. I do not give out grades to my kids, though I do provide feedback (scores on quantitative things, and rubric grading as qualitative feedback as well). If an outside provider is accredited and gives grades I keep record of those.

 

Using Alcumus is a great way to get feedback while not actually assigning grades. If you wish to have a grade that is accepted by a university or other institution I suggest taking the AOPS classes, and they will at your request send a letter with qualitative commentary about your child's work in class as well as assign a letter grade.

The bolded is not true.  In fact, by not listing parent given grades on the transcript, you will place your children at a disadvantage at many colleges for both admission and academic merit aid.

[8filltheheart]

Yes. This is the root of my question. I plan to use a cumulative final as well but wondered how others handle it. And I also wonder what one is to do if you have worked to "mastery" all year but then the student performs poorly on the final? Without periodic testing, a student may not know they struggle with retention until the end of an entire year.

I know whether my kids have mastered content. I am mot exam focused bc I don't need an exam to tell me what is obvious. My kids that use Foresters do have tests at the end of each chpt bc they are in the text. My AoPS kid didn't have tests. It was not an issue at all. (And my lack of focus on testing has not negatively impacted them in college. They have all graduated with honors or currently have high GPAs.)

 

In terms of mom given grades, my college freshman had no outside grades other than her private Russian tutor. No school had a problem with her mom assigned grades. She submitted an SAT, 2 subject tests,and at that point a couple of CLEPs. She was accepted to every school she applied to and with large scholarship awards.

Edited August 23, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Mike in SA]

Yes, but I consider mastery only true mastery if accompanied by long term retention. This is why merely working the chapter problems when the chapter is studied is insufficient for me to ascertain true mastery; I require my students to be able to solve the problems at the end of the year, and that is why I give a cumulative final to determine mastery.

 

Agreed.  If you can forget it, you didn't master it - you may have tricks down, but you aren't qualified to teach it.  Masters can teach.

 

[Mike in SA]

Yes.  This is the root of my question.  I plan to use a cumulative final as well but wondered how others handle it.  And I also wonder what one is to do if you have worked to "mastery" all year but then the student performs poorly on the final? Without periodic testing, a student may not know they struggle with retention until the end of an entire year.   

 

I would not call that mastery.  That is more likely parroting, which is an important first step in learning, but it isn't full comprehension.

 

When we use the college B&I algebra texts, we may have to use problems from various sections, but we do test at the end of each long AoPS chapter, or every two short chapters.

 

With AoPS, I wouldn't sweat too much.  If a child can do the challenge problems (I do not recommend skipping), the mastery will follow.

[regentrude]

Yes.  This is the root of my question.  I plan to use a cumulative final as well but wondered how others handle it.  And I also wonder what one is to do if you have worked to "mastery" all year but then the student performs poorly on the final? Without periodic testing, a student may not know they struggle with retention until the end of an entire year.   

 

Pretest. Before my children were allowed to take the final, they have to demonstrate that they are prepared. If they had not mastered the material, they needed to review until they have.

But youa lso see whether a student retains by seeing their work and listening to them explain their reasoning. They may forget a few details here and there and some obscure topics, but "retention" should not really be a problem if they truly understand the material - which you find out from interacting with them throughout the school year.

[Targhee]

The bolded is not true. In fact, by not listing parent given grades on the transcript, you will place your children at a disadvantage at many colleges for both admission and academic merit aid.

I'm sorry if I generalized from my own experience/anecdote shared with me. The colleges we've been looking at want course lists (not transcripts). I had also been told that colleges wouldn't use the GPA from a mommy transcript in their algorithm, even if you gave it, and would rely on tests, accredited grades, and other application components more heavily. Thanks to others who have shared a broader experience. My apologies.

[Arcadia]

I plan to use a cumulative final as well but wondered how others handle it. And I also wonder what one is to do if you have worked to "mastery" all year but then the student performs poorly on the final?

Let your kids review their work before the cumulative final. My older boy takes one to two days to review topics he has temporarily forgotten while my younger boy takes about five days.

 

For example Cramer's rule. My oldest forgot about it after not doing any matrix problems for many months. A quick 5 minute revision on matrices and his memory is refreshed.

 

My kids self study before they started taking AoPS online classes. Either way I look over their work to make sure they are on track and what are their weaker areas.

[snowbeltmom]

I'm sorry if I generalized from my own experience/anecdote shared with me. The colleges we've been looking at want course lists (not transcripts). I had also been told that colleges wouldn't use the GPA from a mommy transcript in their algorithm, even if you gave it, and would rely on tests, accredited grades, and other application components more heavily. Thanks to others who have shared a broader experience. My apologies.

Before my oldest applied to college, I was planning on also not listing grades for courses studied at home.  However, through these boards and the yahoo group hs2coll, I learned of students who were severely penalized for using that approach and were denied admission due to lack of grades.  I also learned that there are colleges and other entities that assign either a C or D to any course listed on the transcript that was not assigned a grade.

[8filltheheart]

Before my oldest applied to college, I was planning on also not listing grades for courses studied at home. However, through these boards and the yahoo group hs2coll, I learned of students who were severely penalized for using that approach and were denied admission due to lack of grades. I also learned that there are colleges and other entities that assign either a C or D to any course listed on the transcript that was not assigned a grade.

Exactly. I felt so sorry for the family whose ds was extremely qualified for admissions to UVA who learned the hard way that all his "no grades bc mom was teacher" courses ended up having C assigned grades generated by the school bc that is what they automatically do for courses that don't have letter grades but are considered passed.

 

I am not sure where the idea of not trusting mom-generated grades comes from, but with all 5 of our high school grads, my transcript has been accepted at face value. Even if they have a 4.0 (which has been hard-earned, not given!!!), it has not been an issue.

[snowbeltmom]

Exactly. I felt so sorry for the family whose ds was extremely qualified for admissions to UVA who learned the hard way that all his "no grades bc mom was teacher" courses ended up having C assigned grades generated by the school bc that is what they automatically do for courses that don't have letter grades but are considered passed.

 

I am not sure where the idea of not trusting mom-generated grades comes from, but with all 5 of our high school grads, my transcript has been accepted at face value. Even if they have a 4.0 (which has been hard-earned, not given!!!), it has not been an issue.

 

I don't know where the idea comes from, either, but I have seen that sentiment expressed quite often over the years.  I have only gone through the process twice, but my kids' straight A's were also never questioned anywhere, either. 

 

I am thankful for the families over the years who have taken the time to inform the rest of us of the negative ramifications they experienced in the crazy world of college admissions because they did not assign grades. 

 

[Arcadia]

I don't know where the idea comes from, either, but I have seen that sentiment expressed quite often over the years. I have only gone through the process twice, but my kids' straight A's were also never questioned anywhere, either.

 

I haven't been told not to assign grades but I had been told by private school guidance counselors that some form of outside verification such as DE, tests, competitions would be useful to validate the grades even for B&M students due to grade inflation. Since my kids both have engineering as a choice they would have the two SAT subject test scores that is often required for engineering school applications.

 

The school counselors aren't suggesting their school kids take a boatload of AP exams but to take a few. My husband's colleagues had faced the problem of grade inflation and their public school kids not knowing their math. Some are hiring tutors and some are teaching their kids after work.

[snowbeltmom]

I haven't been told not to assign grades but I had been told by private school guidance counselors that some form of outside verification such as DE, tests, competitions would be useful to validate the grades even for B&M students due to grade inflation. Since my kids both have engineering as a choice they would have the two SAT subject test scores that is often required for engineering school applications.

 

The school counselors aren't suggesting their school kids take a boatload of AP exams but to take a few. My husband's colleagues had faced the problem of grade inflation and their public school kids not knowing their math. Some are hiring tutors and some are teaching their kids after work.

 

:iagree:

I don't think very many would say that outside validation isn't important.  But outside validation, ironically, appears not to be enough for some colleges - they want to see letter grades, regardless of who assigns them.  The homeschooled student who was rejected from UVA had extremely high test scores and other outside validation, but he was lacking letter grades for his classes.

 

[Arcadia]

Someone bump the other thread back up so here's the link to the tests Regentrude wrote and shared http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/447321-does-aops-have-tests/?p=4582690