Moral? objection to Singapore math?

[Xahm]

Have you heard of such a thing? My friend went to a local homeschool store to buy Singapore math and was told they don't carry it. She was fuzzy on the explanation, but came away with the impression it was for personal moral reasons of the owner of the shop. I hadn't heard of this, so I came here to find out if this was in any way a widespread problem. As in, if she goes to a different store, will she likely run into the same thing? (Bible belt here, if that matters)

[Insertcreativenamehere]

Does the store only carry Christian curricula? 

 

I am a Christian and have used Singapore and have found nothing objectionable in it. That's really bizarre! 

[regentrude]

How can a math curriculum be "morally objectionable"? :confused1:

Well, of course, it has no Bible verses like certain other math curricula - but it does a darn fine job of actually teaching math.

[Xahm]

My friend said they had other math there that wasn't specifically Christian. Her guess was that the guy didn't like the country Singapore, but didn't want to say it. It doesn't make me want to go to this store.

Edited August 18, 2017 by xahm

[HomeAgain]

Definitely not a widespread problem, and it sounds like a vocabulary error on the part of the owner.  I think the word that was wanting was personal 'bigotry', not personal 'moral' reasons.  Moral implies there is something offensive about the program, bigotry lets the owner take possession of her own narrow viewpoint.

[Xahm]

My hope was that she misunderstood and it is somehow difficult for small stores to order from this publisher, or something. Has anyone heard of that?

[Ausmumof3]

That's bizarre! I tend to assume there was a miscommunication.

[Rachel]

I've never run into that thinking before.

[Syllieann]

Isn't the math program developed by the government? Maybe the owner opposes the lack of free speech or the use of corporal punishment. I wouldn't jump to conclusions in declaring the owner to be a bigot without knowing the reason.

[Loesje22000]

If the pictures contains any dragons, fairies, dwarfs etc. or any other imaginary creature it can be objectable to some christians.

Only real existing creatures 'count'.

 

(Just explaining some peoples thoughts, not necessarily agreeing with it!!)

[Rockhopper]

I think it's dangerous to automatically assume that any moral objection by anyone must be because the person is a bigoted white young earth Christian.

 

Maybe the owner of the store had a relative caned for chewing gum or breaking another of Singapore's arcane and harsh laws, and doesn't want to support that regime by purchasing a government funded curriculum.

[emzhengjiu]

We used Singapore math for elementary and middle school.  I never saw anything objectionable, but if I remember correctly the supplementary software program had aliens or something similar.  Singapore math was a favorite in our home!

[desertstrawberry5]

My hope was that she misunderstood and it is somehow difficult for small stores to order from this publisher, or something. Has anyone heard of that?

No. Our tiny local homeschool store carried it. It was one the the few lines they could easily access. 

[HomeAgain]

Isn't the math program developed by the government? Maybe the owner opposes the lack of free speech or the use of corporal punishment. I wouldn't jump to conclusions in declaring the owner to be a bigot without knowing the reason.

 

Then they'd have to remove many Christian curricula:

 

BJU: racist and sexist. 

Apologia: poorly researched biblical stance used to justify calling Mormons non-Christian.

ACE - let's not go there.  If this is acceptable, then child neglect wouldn't be against the law.

A Beka - put out by Pensacola Christian College, which expels victims of rape for 'fornication', has rules of conduct that prohibit free speech and isn't even a well thought out curriculum as it sprinkles bible throughout.  Their math curriculum eschews math in favor of faith that God is absolute and therefore limit what is taught to just that.

 

There's a lot more objectionable Christian curriculum companies than there are secular.  If we're going to go with moral objections, of course.

[SKL]

I found it objectionable, but not for moral reasons.  :P

 

I am at a loss as far as any religious issue, so I'm going to go with miscommunication until convinced otherwise.  :)

[Syllieann]

Then they'd have to remove many Christian curricula:

 

BJU: racist and sexist.

Apologia: poorly researched biblical stance used to justify calling Mormons non-Christian.

ACE - let's not go there. If this is acceptable, then child neglect wouldn't be against the law.

A Beka - put out by Pensacola Christian College, which expels victims of rape for 'fornication', has rules of conduct that prohibit free speech and isn't even a well thought out curriculum as it sprinkles bible throughout. Their math curriculum eschews math in favor of faith that God is absolute and therefore limit what is taught to just that.

 

There's a lot more objectionable Christian curriculum companies than there are secular. If we're going to go with moral objections, of course.

What if you said you wouldn't use any of those "Christian" curricula without stating the reason? Should I declare you a bigot because I don't happen to be privy to the information on which your objections are based?

[Xahm]

I wasn't trying to stir the pot here, just curious. I'm backing away slowly now as I think I've learned this isn't a widespread thing and was likely a miscommunication of some sort.

[HomeAgain]

What if you said you wouldn't use any of those "Christian" curricula without stating the reason? Should I declare you a bigot because I don't happen to be privy to the information on which your objections are based?

 

This makes no sense.

 

My point is, there is quite a bit of material peddled to Christians from morally repugnant sources that have nothing to do with Jesus or what he stood for.  To embrace one, but discard secular materials on possible, but no direct, connection is bigoted.

 

Your point is..........your ignorance makes me a bigot?  Because I refuse to send my money to people that talk out the side of their mouths?  :confused1:  

[wendyroo]

This makes no sense.

 

My point is, there is quite a bit of material peddled to Christians from morally repugnant sources that have nothing to do with Jesus or what he stood for.  To embrace one, but discard secular materials on possible, but no direct, connection is bigoted.

 

Your point is..........your ignorance makes me a bigot?  Because I refuse to send my money to people that talk out the side of their mouths?  :confused1:  

 

I think she is saying that for all we know, the book store owner could have a perfectly valid reason to not buy or sell books from Singapore.  It is not exactly a country above reproach (not that any completely are).

 

Just because we don't know his motives does not necessarily make them bigoted.

 

It would be like if I refused to hire the African American teenage boy next door to babysit my kids.  Hypothetically, my decision could be racist or sexist, but it could also be because I caught him smoking pot in the backyard.

 

Wendy

[J-rap]

I can't think of anything objectionable in them, so I guess I'd just assume that his reasons were personal and something we are not privy to. 

 

I don't know why this thread went off on the path it did.  I think it's true that we shouldn't assume to know what the reasons are.  The reasons might be valid, or not.  There is just no way we can possibly know.  

 

 

[Arcadia]

My hope was that she misunderstood and it is somehow difficult for small stores to order from this publisher, or something. Has anyone heard of that?

I ordered from this link for my kids when they were using Singapore primary math. Very easy and the owner is in Oregon or Washington state (I forgot) so media mail shipping was fast enough for me. There are probably cheaper online stores to order from.

 

http://www.singaporemath.com/mobile/Category.aspx?id=21&page=3

 

The publisher is the one who benefit from the royalties. The Ministry of Education did had a curriculum department who wrote the books but it is unlikely the ministry get any money for a curriculum that was first released in 1982 and later revised by Marshall Cavendish.

[Tumbatoo]

Was it in Alpharetta, GA by chance? A store there told me they didn't carry Singapore and I got the same impression! It was so unexpected that I researched, but found nothing. Weird

[Butter]

I've heard of homeschoolers refusing to use Singapore because of being Common Core aligned.  (But, then, so is Math-U-See and Beast Academy.)

[SarahW]

Was it in Alpharetta, GA by chance? A store there told me they didn't carry Singapore and I got the same impression! It was so unexpected that I researched, but found nothing. Weird

 

 

Ohhhh...that store. The one where my DH was thrilled to meet a fellow European, and after a few minutes of conversation with him started backing away slowly.

 

I never pinned down what the deal was there, but yeah, there's was no SM there. But some CTCo. stuff, so, dunno.

[SKL]

It could be something they know about the publishers or someone up the chain, that isn't general knowledge.  I don't buy from people who do certain things.  It may have nothing to do with the product itself.

[maize]

Definitely not a common thing--Christian Book sells Singapore math and I think My Father's World and some other very conservative Christian curriculum providers recommend it?

 

Could be an objection to Common Core.

[Xahm]

I actually think so. Weird that you were able to recognize it from that!

 

 

Was it in Alpharetta, GA by chance? A store there told me they didn't carry Singapore and I got the same impression! It was so unexpected that I researched, but found nothing. Weird

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

I've run into it because people object to common core. They don't realize Singapore Math has been around much longer than Common Core.

[Xahm]

Ohhhh...that store. The one where my DH was thrilled to meet a fellow European, and after a few minutes of conversation with him started backing away slowly.

 

I never pinned down what the deal was there, but yeah, there's was no SM there. But some CTCo. stuff, so, dunno.

You too?!? Now I kind of want to go there on a fact finding mission.

[luuknam]

You too?!? Now I kind of want to go there on a fact finding mission.

 

 

Please do, and report back. :)

[happypamama]

Well, now I'm curious. Singapore has no religious stuff in it at all, and it has no fantasy (dragons, etc.) in it either. It's very much based in everyday sorts of things, although people do bake a lot of cookies and buy a lot of fruit.

 

I'm guessing missed communication or perhaps a problem with Singapore the country. Is Christianity illegal there? If so, maybe the shop doesn't want to support a country with that philosophy.

[Crimson Wife]

My suspicion is because the new edition is called "Common Core". Many people have objections to CCSS and refuse to use anything labeled with it. I object to CCSS but if the program is a good one like Singapore or Beast Academy, I'm not going to let the label stand in the way of me using it.

 

I would be tempted to point out that the old U.S. edition is still available for those who are so opposed to CCSS that they won't use any program aligned to it.

[Arcadia]

Is Christianity illegal there? If so, maybe the shop doesn't want to support a country with that philosophy.

Singapore's Ministry of Education pays the staff salaries of semi-autonomous Christian schools. These schools are considered public schools and the students take the national exams. There are Catholic, Methodist, Anglican and other denominations.

 

Link shows some of the catholic public schools available http://accs.sg/directory/

Methodist public schools http://www.methodist.org.sg/ministries/methodist-schools

[Xahm]

Please do, and report back. :)

 

I may have to, though it'll be a couple of weeks before I get the chance, most likely. It's not exactly my area of town.

[OneStepAtATime]

Was it in Alpharetta, GA by chance? A store there told me they didn't carry Singapore and I got the same impression! It was so unexpected that I researched, but found nothing. Weird

 

 

Ohhhh...that store. The one where my DH was thrilled to meet a fellow European, and after a few minutes of conversation with him started backing away slowly.

 

I never pinned down what the deal was there, but yeah, there's was no SM there. But some CTCo. stuff, so, dunno.

 

 

I actually think so. Weird that you were able to recognize it from that!

 

 

 

 

You too?!? Now I kind of want to go there on a fact finding mission.

 

 

Please do, and report back. :)

 

Now I am really curious, too.  Yes, maybe chat up the store owner and see what's up.  Then share.  LOL.

[Xahm]

Now I am really curious, too.  Yes, maybe chat up the store owner and see what's up.  Then share.  LOL.

Posting at the same time. I'll try to make it out that way.

[SilverMoon]

I'd bet it has something to do with Common Core. We know conservative families that won't buy a math curriculum that claims CC. Apparently CC wants to run the world and they won't have any part of it. I tried once to explain that CC was just a list of benchmarks that loads of math books already met or exceeded, and thus got to put the CC stamp on their cover. They did that "well bless her heart she's so deceived" air and changed the topic. LOL

Edited August 18, 2017 by SilverMoon

[Alice]

Maybe it's like this...

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Alice

[...................]

Who knows? There are so many weirdos on every end of the spectrum. Just shrug and move on. Lol

[daijobu]

If the pictures contains any dragons, fairies, dwarfs etc. or any other imaginary creature it can be objectable to some christians.

Only real existing creatures 'count'.

 

(Just explaining some peoples thoughts, not necessarily agreeing with it!!)

 

We used SM and I don't recall any imaginary creatures.

 

However, it did use images of durian which can be quite offensive.   :lol:

[bibiche]

However, it did use images of durian which can be quite offensive.   :lol:

 

Scratch and sniff? ;)

[Alessandra]

I'm curious about the store too. I don't need the name, but a description would be nice.

[SarahW]

I was thinking about this, and Common Core might be the issue, yes.

 

For math books I remember the selection was LOF, Saxon (2nd ed., he was partial to that one, iirc), R&S, and the usual sets of BJU and Abeka.

 

For LA, I'm pretty sure he didn't carry IEW - that's CC, right? I remember wanting to look at those, and not finding them. I thought maybe he just couldn't get a merchant account for them or whatever. 

 

When I was there, that Indoctrination "documentary" had just come out, and he was promoting it heavily. So I suspect that he thought there was a vast government conspiracy to turn everyone into Communists, and CC is part of that.

 

 

[...................]

IEW is definitely not common core...

[Tumbatoo]

I was thinking about this, and Common Core might be the issue, yes.

 

For math books I remember the selection was LOF, Saxon (2nd ed., he was partial to that one, iirc), R&S, and the usual sets of BJU and Abeka.

 

For LA, I'm pretty sure he didn't carry IEW - that's CC, right? I remember wanting to look at those, and not finding them. I thought maybe he just couldn't get a merchant account for them or whatever.

 

When I was there, that Indoctrination "documentary" had just come out, and he was promoting it heavily. So I suspect that he thought there was a vast government conspiracy to turn everyone into Communists, and CC is part of that.

But I do remember then having ETC. That's common core, right?

[SarahW]

IEW is definitely not common core...

 

Yes it is. I just double checked.

 

They have a page on meeting state standards, including the states that adopted CC. 

 

They seem to try really hard to keep the CC label off their stuff, but I don't think the guy in GA was fooled.

[maize]

But I do remember then having ETC. That's common core, right?

It would have to be combined with other language arts components to meet all common core standards.

[HS Mom in NC]

My friend went to a local homeschool store to buy Singapore math and was told they don't carry it. She was fuzzy on the explanation, but came away with the impression it was for personal moral reasons of the owner of the shop.

 

So you don't actually know that the explanation involved a personal moral reason at all, you just have someone's impression of a fuzzy explanation.  So it could have absolutely nothing at all to do with a personal moral objection.  So what are we all speculating about?

 

I would've ended the post at the comma with a period and left rest out.  Once you start speculating about other people's unstated moral objections that may or may not exist, you're creating an environment for all sorts of false accusations, which isn't fair.

 

[nixpix5]

Who knows? There are so many weirdos on every end of the spectrum. Just shrug and move on. Lol

I laughed when I read this because all I could picture were the penguins from "Penguins" saying "just smile and wave boys" haha! You are not wrong...so many odd stances on things while much of the world worries about...I don't know...let's say where their next meal is coming from. First world problems...

[Xahm]

If I had called out the store or owner by name, you'd have a totally valid point, and I would be ashamed of myself if I made accusations based on anything so vague.

I was curious what was behind the objection and wondered if anyone had heard of a reason to object to this math program on moral grounds. It turns out others have gone to the same store and come away with the same impression, so I may investigate further. If that's not the kind of thing that makes you curious, that's fine, but I don't think you need to worry that I'm setting off on a slippery slope that will lead to pitchforks and witch burnings. (That last bit is said in a friendly, good humored tone)

 

So you don't actually know that the explanation involved a personal moral reason at all, you just have someone's impression of a fuzzy explanation. So it could have absolutely nothing at all to do with a personal moral objection. So what are we all speculating about?

 

I would've ended the post at the comma with a period and left rest out. Once you start speculating about other people's unstated moral objections that may or may not exist, you're creating an environment for all sorts of false accusations, which isn't fair.