Praying for somebody?

[regentrude]

Then what do you do with Jesus? 

Just wondering. 

 

Jesus was a man who came from humble origins (nativity), underwent a spiritual search (desert), and became a spiritual leader for a small community (disciples). He seems to have been a very intelligent and precocious child. He preached ideas that were every progressive for his time and have still validity. He was executed for his views (in the complicated political context). 

I neither believe in the literal immaculate conception nor in the literal resurrection. I can take both as metaphors. I do not believe in an afterlife.

Edited August 17, 2017 by regentrude

[Catwoman]

The purpose of my question was not to be convinced that prayer works.

The purpose was to understand how praying people think about prayer and the mechanism in which this accomplishes an effect in the person for whom they pray (not in thepraying person herself)

I realize that, but I'm not entirely sure "the mechanism" is something that can be explained in any concrete way. It's not a scientific, provable thing and I don't think anyone would say that if they pray for a sick friend, they will always get the result for which they were praying, so the only thing anyone can really offer is anecdotal evidence of times when their prayers appeared to have been answered as they had hoped. But obviously that's not scientific proof.

 

I feel like I'm not understanding what you're looking for. I'm trying, but I feel like I'm missing something.

[Murphy101]

I don't see God as a personification at all - more like a permeating force that has set the world in motion, given it order, and is the source of spiritual life, love, creativity... As such, by its very nature, it cannot actively interfere in the lives of humans, but it can be called upon, summoned, channeled by humans. If I can have any view of a kind of God, it would be this. I see all religious trimmings only as metaphors and rituals humans have constructed to imagine and tap into that force.

Sooooo basicly, you think the Jedi force is real? Well. Alrighty then. I've heard worse theories. May the Force be with you.

 

I'm being tongue in cheek in this serious philosophical thread. Please don't take my tone as snarky or insulting. It's late. I'm super stressed and tired and feeling a bit tipsy from exhaustion. Baby girl is crawling around wide awake meowing. It's her fourth new word and she keeps going after the cat screaming MEOW! and giggling like a lune when the cat bats her on the head and moves just slightly out of reach. I think the cat is actually enjoying this. And it's cute. But geez. Go to sleep already kid.

[PeterPan]

...If he could feed but doesn't, he's not benevolent. If he wants to but can't, not omnipotent. 

 

 

Really? But you don't apply that same standard to yourself as a parent. I certainly don't, not with my ds. I do things to teach him. I make choices to wait and give him opportunities to learn on his own. I don't do everything FOR him.

 

Also, there have to be consequences to actions and choices. 

 

 

And a young child who is daily being raped by a relative and praying for it to stop? And it doesn't stop? What lesson would God be teaching that child and/or what actions or choices could an innocent child possibly be suffering the consequences of?

 

It's hard to follow quotes when the original doesn't come down, sigh. I wanted to make sure you saw that your example doesn't fit precisely what I was addressing (people being hungry). It's a fine question, why terrible people do bad bad things to others. 

 

The other thing is, and this is not in reply to Frances but just an observation, it's not like we here are without our own grievances and things where we were treated unjustly. Now the scale, the horrific level varies, sure, but this is stuff that has been going on for thousands of years. For thousands of years people have grappled with how they put together faith and bad things happening to them or that justice seems delayed.

Edited August 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[regentrude]

Sooooo basicly, you think the Jedi force is real? Well. Alrighty then. I've heard worse theories. May the Force be with you.

 

I'm being tongue in cheek in this serious philosophical thread. Please don't take my tone as snarky or insulting

 

Actually, don't laugh - "the force" has been for me the best image for a way I can imagine the divine, if there is such a thing at all.

I had my decade of Sunday school, confirmation, was a youth group leader, had numerous discussions with my pastors, so it surely is not for lack of exposure to the "father" image, but it never made sense to me because it leads to the omnipotent/benevolent dilemma. An unpersonified force is by far my favorite metaphor for the divine. Much better than an old man who looks like Zeus sitting on the cloud.

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by regentrude

[PeterPan]

Actually, don't laugh - "the force" has been for me the best image for a way I can imagine a deity, if one shoudl exist at all.

I had my decade of Sunday school, confirmation, was a youth group leader, had numerous discussions with my pastors, and the "father" image never made sense to me because it leads to the omnipotet/benevolent dilemma. An unpersonified force is by far my favorite metaphor for the divine. Much better than an old man with a white beard sitting on the cloud who looks like Zeus.

 

I'm sure you're aware of this but there are terms for it (pantheism, blah blah). I don't even know all the terms and don't really attempt to keep up. I'm just saying it's not new to you. 

 

Conceptions of God - Wikipedia

[PeterPan]

The Force (Star Wars) - Wikipedia 

[Liz CA]

The purpose of my question was not to be convinced that prayer works.

The purpose was to understand how praying people think about prayer and the mechanism in which this accomplishes an effect in the person for whom they pray (not in thepraying person herself)

 

As far as prayer and its intricacies: Those who pray are seen as intercessors (from Latin "intercedere"). They are asking for the welfare of another human by praying for him/her. God may "answer" the prayer in a way that we interpret as "good" or not.

So if you were ill and I prayed for you, there would be no guarantee that you'd be healed but there may be a chance - and not only because of my prayer. There is a Bible passage where God is affected by prayer and changes his original plan - if we can simplify it in such a way. Bottom line: Prayer may help you, it certainly won't harm you.

[meena]

Jesus was a man who came from humble origins (nativity), underwent a spiritual search (desert), and became a spiritual leader for a small community (disciples). He seems to have been a very intelligent and precocious child. He preached ideas that were every progressive for his time and have still validity. He was executed for his views (in the complicated political context). 

I neither believe in the literal immaculate conception nor in the literal resurrection. I can take both as metaphors. I do not believe in an afterlife.

 

Whether or not one believes in an afterlife has a huge impact on this type of discussion. If you are looking at human life only from physical birth to physical death, then suffering can only be bad. Someone's life sucked and then it's over and that's it. If a person does believe in an afterlife, the perspective of what God does/doesn't do isn't limited to just the physical body but encompasses the soul and its eternal existence. People can be subjected to pain and suffering to the point of death, but are unbound from that suffering as their soul is unbound from their physical body. Human suffering can make sense if seen as part of a bigger picture beyond the here and now.

 

Do you believe people have a spiritual element? If so, what happens to it when the physical body dies?

[Liz CA]

So what makes you feel so special that it gives you the audacity to ask for minor things when he is refusing to help so many others in serious crises? Why should your prayer matter?  If he were to lead a person to the right job and but refuse to save others from starvation, wouldn't that be a capricious use of dictatorial power? "Keep begging me, and sometimes I may choose to help and other times I let you die" smacks of sadism.

 

"You are seeking to understand with a finite mind what you cannot."

Not just "you" but all of us.

Humans are desperate to come up with explanations for everything and it is very hard for us to accept that there may be no good answers for some things.

[MommyLiberty5013]

What I think about prayer is that it's a conversation with another person. I do mean conversation, as I believe and personally know, God does answer back. Some may call it conscience, a strong urge or prompting, or words or ideas or even images that light up on their mind that haven't come from within themselves.

 

God cares about our cares so the "mechanism " word you used would be the general character of God.

 

I politely disagree that omnipotence negates benevolence. Here's a rough example. If I'm holding my shot gun I am pretty "all powerful" I can do what I want. People will listen. But the power I weild is only good if I do good with it. Defending my family would be good. This is an example of how power can exist alongside benevolence. We in the West often equate power with malevolence. When we see and hear "power," we get images of Wall Street, politicians, and slimy law breakers.

 

You asked about the Jews. They have always been important to world history. From them, Messiah came. I do believe the enemy, Satan always tries to end them. Look at all the suffering they have faced in many places. Why does Satan care?

 

When the Jews return home, the end will come and Satan's rule on earth is over. He and his demons are cast down. What better way to prevent his own end then to eliminate the chosen people from the earth. No Jews would mean no return to the Promise Land, which would mean no end and no defeat of Satan.

 

I shudder over the horrid state of the world...

 

But I know God was there in the death camps, I know He led soldiers, hid people, and worked good amongst the evil.

 

I Know this because I read accounts coming out of parts of the world replete with suffering and He's active and involved there. He was active in the 1940s too and thousands of years before that. Does He sometimes act swiftly like a flash and make something immediately right? Yes I have experience with this and also have read accounts. Does He take a longer approach? Yes, this too I have personally experienced and have read about. How does He decide when to do what? I have no idea. My heart tells me he likes to involve us in His work, so lots of the waiting may be due to Him bringing people along and readying them for a time or task.

 

Just my thoughts. Good question.

[Murphy101]

Actually, don't laugh - "the force" has been for me the best image for a way I can imagine the divine, if there is such a thing at all.

I had my decade of Sunday school, confirmation, was a youth group leader, had numerous discussions with my pastors, so it surely is not for lack of exposure to the "father" image, but it never made sense to me because it leads to the omnipotent/benevolent dilemma. An unpersonified force is by far my favorite metaphor for the divine. Much better than an old man who looks like Zeus sitting on the cloud.

 

I wasn't laughing. Like I wrote, I've heard worse theories.

 

It's not that unusual for someone who believes in a triune God (RC for example) to identify more with one aspect of that triune. In this case, possibly the Holy Spirit. Especially from the perspective of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Personally my dad was an jerk, so the whole father figure emphasis was/is not always compelling or encouraging to me.

[Guest]

I hesitate to comment because I am not willing to write all that I would need to say--it's like trying to address "why a tapestry artist put this red thread right there" without taking a look at the whole tapestry--and without resorting to posting an enormous number of links and coming across as blowing it off at a personal level.

 

That said...  

 

It seems to me that the question you are asking has a lot to do with what is sometimes called theodicy, which has to do with free will, both of man and of God; whether God is personal (as in "a person" as opposed to a force); the impact that answer has on the part we play in the relationship (if any); what is the nature and trustworthiness of that person/force; what is the purpose of the relationship in the first place; and what is my part in it; and whether what we experience in this life is all there is.  Not much to think about there!

 

I posted here with no answers, I know.  I just wanted to speak up to let you know that I'm trying to listen and maybe after a couple of days, if the thread lasts that long, maybe I will be able to say something.  Not give an answer.  Just say something coherent.  :0)

 

 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

What if God does want us to have peace and has given us everything to attain it, but humans choose not to?

 

Personally, that's what I think is happening.

 

There is enough food for everyone in the world. But greed and selfishness means it doesn't happen.

 

Same with many medications.

 

It's completely possible to live sustainable, happy, necessity met lives. But humans never get their crap together enough to make it happen. Someone always has to get greedy and selfish. Then there's fighting to redistribute what really shouldn't need a lot of moral fiber or being particuliarly genius to figure out equitably, but equitable and just never seem to be the greatest concern or the smartest results.

 

I'm not understanding why some "force" within would be any more worthy of acknowledgement or any less culpable for its impotence than any God-being.

[Carol in Cal.]

I am feeling all the feels for this thread, and it keeps reminding me of reading material.

Specifically:  "God Sees the Truth, But Waits" by Tolstoy

"That Hideous Strength" by C. S. Lewis

"The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe" by C. S. Lewis--specifically "He's not a TAME lion".

 

 

Issues in no particular order:

Romans 8:28 is being built on in the thread, but I think wrongly.  It says, "And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose."

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that all things work together for the good of that one specific person, but more for good in general.  That being so, we pray that God will show us the good that He brings about even from challenges and suffering.  It also doesn't necessarily mean that the good outweighs the bad, but rather that God brings some good into everything, sometimes it being difficult to see.

 

Regarding prayer, see the third reference above.  We don't control God, but since He invites us to pray, and to pray specifically for material as well as spiritual things, we are bold to do so, knowing that He will answer--maybe yes, maybe no, maybe later, but there will be an answer, and that answer will be part of how He works things together for His purposes, whether they seem good to us or not.

 

The second reference describes a mindset that is like this, in the training of the prisoner.  Specifically, he is told to stomp on a crucifix, and then his thought processes are described.  Lewis does a far better job than I would of this, and I won't try to summarize it here, but it's fantastically descriptive.

 

And the first reference basically makes the point that God allows some to suffer so that more might be able to know Him.  Again, another example of a believer not necessarily experiencing the good that God brings out of suffering himself, but nonetheless knowing that it is there.

 

Lastly there is the story of the apostle Paul, asking that the 'thorn in the flesh' be removed, and being told no.  "My grace is sufficient for thee," God tells him, "For My power is made perfect in weakness."  So, if Paul didn't always get exactly what he asked God for, I'm not going to expect that I will, not every time.  But when I do, it's wonderful.
 

 

 

[eternalsummer]

Any sequence of events will create cause and effect and weave a long narative over thousands of years, with events causing chains of otehr events. It does not require a divine plan.

One can always look backwards and say a certain event was only possible because of a chain of events stretching back hundreds of years, all connected through causality. 

 

now, an interesting thought is that the principle of cause and effect may be considered divine. (If you read Mr G by Alan Lightman, the causality principle is one of only three basic principles his god gives the uiverse before letting it evolve )

 

This is something closer to Spinoza's God, (and Einstein's, for that matter) and is the way I see God.  Sort of the driving force of order in the universe, expressed in one way through natural laws.

[J-rap]

When my life turned upside-down some years ago, I let go of a lot of my faith and prayer beliefs for awhile.  Because honestly, if I, as a parent, would never want anything horrible (a small lesson learned, maybe; but horrible? never!) to happen to one of my own children, then how could a god who is infinitely greater than I and who supposedly embodies love itself allow horrible things to happen to his beloved creation on earth?  It really no longer made sense to me, and Christian pat phrases sure didn't cut it.  So, I can certainly understand anyone asking this question.

 

Fast forward several years, and I've come to several conclusions.  Prayer is crucial.  As a result of God's eternal and incredible love for each of us, He has given us free will which means He has given up part of His control, in a way.  (He could also choose to take it back.)  This means He is partly relying on us now to carry on and fulfill His kingdom on Earth.  (Basically, His plan of love.)  I do believe there is some mystery involved with prayer that we cannot fully understand yet, but given the presence of both good and evil in this world, our prayers can cut through some of that and allow God's Holy Spirit to work, within the constraints that He has set for now.

 

I believe that God never, ever wants anything horrible to happen to us.  I think it really deeply grieves Him when something does.  I also don't believe everything happens for a reason, or that God willy-nilly answers some prayers and not others.  I think...some things just happen on this Earth.  Some of those things are horrible.  Prayer is mentioned over and over again in Scripture, and I don't think it's just to make us feel good.  I believe that whenever it is possible, our prayers make a difference and actually change a projectory.   But I also believe that God's gift of free will enables His creation to act contrary to His desire;  then He still acts but within the limits of what He has handed over to us.

 

In the end, I believe that through Christ we can see the heart of God.  This has been my greatest reassurance when I don't understand things.  Christ's life and philosophy to me really are the purest embodiment of love that I can imagine, and I trust that that is God's heart.  

 

Anyway, there's a lot more I could say about prayer and your question, because this is something I've thought a lot about!  But I don't want to get too wordy.   :)  If you're interested, you can PM me and I'll send you the name of some books I've read that describe it better than I do.

Edited August 17, 2017 by J-rap

[creekland]

If God were to answer every prayer the way we wanted Him to (actually impossible given some folks pray for sporting event outcomes), then He'd be exactly the God the Prosperity Gospel preaches about.  He'd be the equivalent of a vending machine.  Few would love Him or choose to follow Him simply because of who He is.  They would do it because of what they get (or don't get if they didn't).  My best reasoning is that's not the way He wants the world.  Most of us prefer friends who accept us because of who we are, not because of what we'll give them.  I suspect it's similar for God.

 

So why pray for others knowing God may or may not give us the answer we want - and sometimes those answers come to those who don't pray anyway?  Because God tells us to.  My best guess on that is because He wants us to continue to keep others in our thoughts - to realize that this life is often tough.  We need to do our best to help each other in any way we can.  Sometimes we can be more useful than just prayer (without eliminating the prayer) and sometimes prayer is the best we can do.  It beats just shrugging things off.  When nice things happen in this sometimes tough world, then we offer prayers of praise - again - keeping us reminded that the whole world isn't always bad.  When good/bad things happen to us, it's also nice knowing others share in our "lives."

 

Why believe in God at all?  For me, I personally find it far more unbelievable to think we all got here - every aspect of life on this planet - by chance.  God may have used evolution (or not, I don't care), but evolution of species is so unbelievable unless there was a guiding hand ensuring those with the correct mutations were close enough together to mate and survive, etc.  The whole BioGenesis deal is unbelievable without a guiding hand.  The intricacies of how a cell works is unbelievable without a designer.  The whole idea that the Big Bang occurred is unbelievable without a guiding hand.  The more science I learn, the more I'm convinced that God is real.

 

FWIW I don't think humans always have God's ideas interpreted correctly.  I see the Bible as a guidebook - not a rulebook - except for the Commandment to Love God and Love Your Neighbor and by doing those everything else will be right.  I use that Commandment (both of them actually) to run my life - and I'll continue to pray while also helping as many folks as possible (whether they believe or not) as I go through this life.  I read the Bible.  I use it to guide my life.  When I think about the stories of the people in it I'm reminded just how much humans haven't really changed over the years.

 

I also believe there's an afterlife and I'm looking forward to being there when the time is right.  I think this life is just a stage in our spiritual lives.

[regentrude]

So why pray for others knowing God may or may not give us the answer we want - and sometimes those answers come to those who don't pray anyway?  Because God tells us to.  My best guess on that is because He wants us to continue to keep others in our thoughts - to realize that this life is often tough.  We need to do our best to help each other in any way we can.  Sometimes we can be more useful than just prayer (without eliminating the prayer) and sometimes prayer is the best we can do.  It beats just shrugging things off.  When nice things happen in this sometimes tough world, then we offer prayers of praise - again - keeping us reminded that the whole world isn't always bad.  When good/bad things happen to us, it's also nice knowing others share in our "lives."

 

Thank you, this makes sense to me. The bolded do not require a deity; I can see how keeping others in my thoughts and being grateful for my blessings have an immediate effect on my spirit and my interaction with the world.

 

Why believe in God at all?  For me, I personally find it far more unbelievable to think we all got here - every aspect of life on this planet - by chance.  God may have used evolution (or not, I don't care), but evolution of species is so unbelievable unless there was a guiding hand ensuring those with the correct mutations were close enough together to mate and survive, etc.  The whole BioGenesis deal is unbelievable without a guiding hand.  The intricacies of how a cell works is unbelievable without a designer.  The whole idea that the Big Bang occurred is unbelievable without a guiding hand.  The more science I learn, the more I'm convinced that God is real..

 

I can see why it is compelling to believe in the existence of a creating spirit. I have often felt similarly. 

I do not, however, see why this creator, whatever he/it is, would necessarily also be an entity that is policing and interfering in human actions and pronouncing last judgment. It is this role of God with which I have trouble.

Edited August 17, 2017 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I wasn't laughing. Like I wrote, I've heard worse theories.

 

It's not that unusual for someone who believes in a triune God (RC for example) to identify more with one aspect of that triune. In this case, possibly the Holy Spirit. Especially from the perspective of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Personally my dad was an jerk, so the whole father figure emphasis was/is not always compelling or encouraging to me.

 

It was very late last night. I woke up this morning and my literally first thought was "I should have said "Holy Spirit", that would have sounded less ridiculous".

So yes, I believe in the Holy Spirit. An image I find far more compelling than that of a male-like lord, father, or king.

Edited August 17, 2017 by regentrude

[mytwomonkeys]

I haven't read the other replies. Prayer for me is simply talking to God about a specific situation & trusting Him with the outcome. A friend of mine just passed away from cancer. She was only 32 & left behind two children that are too young to remember their mom. Our entire church rallied around this family in prayer. Did we pray for healing? Of course! But more than that we prayed for God's peace, guidance, strength, and knowing & understanding that simply surpasses our own ability. We provided meals, yardworj, housecleaning and tangible love that made life easier. But the most important thing was prayer. Her husband says it sustained him through every difficult day & is what he needed the most then and now. I agree with him. My friend's number one request through her cancer treatment was prayer. Even when it doesn't heal it works.

[MercyA]

Can I just say that I appreciate the civility with which this discussion is proceeding?

 

I also appreciate all the people who are way smarter than me sharing their thoughts.

 

And I appreciate Murphy's humor. Always a good thing.

 

I appreciate our community.

 

Nothing else to add, just listening in.  :)

Edited August 17, 2017 by MercyA

[regentrude]

Can I just say that I appreciate the civility with which this discussion is proceeding?

 

Thank you all, I appreciate being able to have this discussion, and you all taking the time to explain your perspective.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

My reasoning leads me to conclude that, if God does exists in some form, it is not a form that takes any interest or interferes in the daily lives of people. I can believe in a creative force. But not in somebody who lets kids die while he tallies whether a person swears or wears immodest clothing.

 

(This is all my opinion, as a Christian, believer in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.)

 

It is not God who is tallying who is wearing immodest clothing or swearing.  People are doing that.  Don't judge God by what some foolish people do.  

 

God tells us to pray.  In the "formula" of what we call "the Lord's prayer" there is only one part that is about our comfort:  "give us this day our daily bread." The rest is about glorifying God and keeping us close to him ("deliver us from evil").  I've also seen that as "deliver us from the evil one." 

 

God doesn't tell us how he will answer our prayers.  To us, a prayer goes unanswered if a loved one dies an untimely or difficult death. But in God's view, that is not the worst thing.   The worst thing is for people to die without knowledge of and belief in Jesus Christ.  

 

I have some examples of how prayer seems to have helped people.

 

1. A husband/father dies suddenly, unexpectedly.  His family is distraught, obviously.  People pray for them.  The mother, who has been homeschooling the 5 children, is offered a job by someone who hears about her situation.  The job is a perfect fit for her.  But what about the kids and school?  Friends raise funds to help pay tuition at a local Christian school; the school uses some special fund to kick in some more.  So the schooling costs are minimal.  The school bus route is tweaked to accommodate her children.   The family misses the husband/father, of course. But they are convinced he is with God now, so in a way they're happy for him too. Their life, all in all, is good, though there is a permanent hole there.  

 

2.  A husband/father dies of cancer.  His family prepares for his death as best they can. They spend time together while he is able.  Again, people at their church and school pray.  God does not heal the man.  But the family "feels" comfort; they know that God does not promise a long, comfortable life for his people.  "in this world, you will have trouble" Christ is quoted in John 16:33. They knew this, though they didn't expect the trouble they would have.  Three years later, the mom has a job she loves, the kids are doing well. Again, there is a permanent hole in their lives.  But they don't think their loss is greater than others'.  They don't blame God for taking their husband/father away.  

 

God does not need us to pray; he can accomplish all he wants without us.  But he gives us the privilege of participating with him in this.  

 

Now, don't think I don't ever struggle with this.  I do.  It's easy for me at this moment to type this all out, and I believe it is all true. But I have my moments of despairing about certain things.  But still, I have things that have happened to me that I can only explain by God working things out.  Small things, it's true, compared to things like the Holocaust, etc.   I think those things are little gifts to help me remember that God does care, even when things look terrible.

Edited August 17, 2017 by marbel

[regentrude]

I have some examples of how prayer seems to have helped people.

 

1. A husband/father dies suddenly, unexpectedly.  His family is distraught, obviously.  People pray for them.  The mother, who has been homeschooling the 5 children, is offered a job by someone who hears about her situation.  The job is a perfect fit for her.  But what about the kids and school?  Friends raise funds to help pay tuition at a local Christian school; the school uses some special fund to kick in some more.  So the schooling costs are minimal.  The school bus route is tweaked to accommodate her children.   The family misses the husband/father, of course. But they are convinced he is with God now, so in a way they're happy for him too. Their life, all in all, is good, though there is a permanent hole there.  

 

Two thoughts:

1.What I see in this example is the benefit of a caring community: people helping the widow and orphans. I see people do this also among non-Christians. Atheists and people belonging to different religions also help their neighbors. What shows you that this is the result of prayer?

2. Some widows and orphans remain destitute in desperate circumstances. Some people's spirit never recovers from a loss. Even though they pray, and people pray for them. 

 

 God does not need us to pray; he can accomplish all he wants without us.  But he gives us the privilege of participating with him in this.  

 

If by participation you mean prayer, I don't understand this. Why is it a privilege to participate in something that has no guaranteed outcome?

If by participation you mean actively working for the good in the world, yes, I can see how this is good for humans. 

 

 

 But still, I have things that have happened to me that I can only explain by God working things out. 

 

What about "random coincidence"? I mean, a God choosing to interfere with an aspect in my life (why should he pick me, seeing that he has chosen to let so many others suffer?) seems as improbable as something happening completely by chance.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by regentrude

[marbel]

Two thoughts:

1.What I see in this example is the benefit of a caring community: people helping the widow and orphans. I see people do this also among non-Christians. Atheists and people belonging to different religions also help their neighbors. What shows you that this is the result of prayer?

2. Some widows and orphans remain destitute in desperate circumstances. Some people's spirit never recovers from a loss. Even though they pray, and people pray for them. 

 

 

 

1. God may be working in the lives of atheists, etc., for his purposes.  Perhaps to bring them to belief, or for other reasons.

 

2. True, and it's difficult to reconcile.  But remember that life on this earth is not the ultimate.  If a person believes that after death they will be with God, they may also believe that suffering on this earth is not the worst thing.  The apostle Paul talks about this.  

 

 

 

 

If by participation you mean prayer, I don't understand this. Why is it a privilege to participate in something that has no guaranteed outcome?

If by participation you mean actively working for the good in the world, yes, I can see how this is good for humans.

 

Well, God tells us to pray.  We are obeying him when we pray, if nothing else.  We should not be so bold as to assume that what we want/pray for is what's best.  I think Creekland addressed this upthread.  [ETA to clarify: we are not praying simply because we are told to. We are also praying to be in fellowship with God, and to participate in fulfilling his purposes in our small way.]

 

It seems that needing/wanting a guaranteed outcome shows a very utilitarian view of God. Which, I guess, is the prosperity gospel Creekland mentioned.

 

 

What about "random coincidence"? I mean, a God choosing to interfere with an aspect in my life (why should he pick me, seeing that he has chosen to let so many others suffer?) seems as improbable as something happening completely by chance.

 

Some of us don't believe in random coincidences.  :-)  God does what he does for his purposes.  We do what we can to alleviate suffering, but yes he does allow some people to suffer while he seems to favor some.  But that is what we see.  God has allowed lots of bad things to happen to good people for a purpose. The story of Joseph (Genesis) comes to mind.  

 

We can't understand the mind of God.  I think it was Patty Joanna who brought up the tapestry idea. We see a few threads. God sees them all.  

 

I'm not a theologian so I don't think I can explain my thoughts/beliefs any better than this.  The more I read the Bible (and helpful commentaries written by theologians :-) ), the more I see how it makes sense, even with all the suffering and sin.   

 

I hope you find the answers you are looking for.  I think this has been the best thread on this topic I have ever seen here.  :-)  

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by marbel

[Guest2]

I am slightly dyslexic and not eloquent by any means, but I will try to answer part of the question before I teach this morning.

Why does God allow evil?

Evil at the hands of other people: God gives mankind free will. We can choose to do evil or good. The Holocaust is horrific example of choosing evil. Every example of hateful behavior from gossip/speech to bullying to torure and death is because of people choosing evil and not good. Not doing good and looking the other way when evil is committed is also an example of free will . Both are the opposite of what He has instructed us to do.

I will try to revisit later, because I know this only a partial answer to the questions you pose.

[regentrude]

Why does God allow evil?

Evil at the hands of other people: God gives mankind free will. ..

 

And what about horrible things happening that are not caused by humans?

My cousin died a slow, torturous, horrible death from ALS. The disease robbed her of her ability to execute her free will, and she watched herself lose all her faculties while retaining a clear mind. I can hardly imagine anything worse.

An entity that inflicts such a curse on a human cannot be well meaning and all powerful at the same time.

[PeterPan]

What about "random coincidence"? I mean, a God choosing to interfere with an aspect in my life (why should he pick me, seeing that he has chosen to let so many others suffer?) seems as improbable as something happening completely by chance.

 

I think many people who come to faith in God (Biblical God, not the force/general idea) say something similar, how improbable it was, that while maybe they were searching it seemed more that God seemed to find them. 

 

But I agree, if God is a force to be accessed via meditation and mindfulness, that's a really different thing from a God who created the universe and is the ultimate judge and going to destroy the whole thing and start over. 

 

I can totally see what you're saying, that if God is the former, then prayer is just chanting in the desert and not worth much more than whatever equilibrium it brings to your brain waves at that moment. And, you know, there are plenty of people who believe in that way and pray in that way. That's not where I am or how I view God or the unseen level of how things work.

Edited August 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[regentrude]

Well, God tells us to pray.  We are obeying him when we pray, if nothing else. 

 

Ah, OK, let me see if I understand it:

You pray because God tells you to, but not because you believe God will actually grant what you are asking for?

The prayer may or may not have the effect on the cause for which you are praying, but that does not matter because you are fulfilling an order - so you pray even when prayers seem to be unanswered, because of obedience?

 

That at least eliminates the dilemma.

[marbel]

Ah, OK, let me see if I understand it:

You pray because God tells you to, but not because you believe God will actually grant what you are asking for?

The prayer may or may not have the effect on the cause for which you are praying, but that does not matter because you are fulfilling an order - so you pray even when prayers seem to be unanswered, because of obedience?

 

That at least eliminates the dilemma.

 

No, sorry, I did not mean to imply that the only reason we pray is to follow an order.  Remember what I said earlier - about it being a privilege to pray and in that way participate with God in fulfilling his purposes.  Since you quoted that part, I assumed you had read it would know that what I said later was an addition, not standalone comment that prayer is just about obedience, since that would contradict my earlier point. 

 

God does tells us to pray, yes.  So one part of praying is simple obedience.  But we are also praying to be in fellowship with God, and (again) to participate in our small way in fulfilling God's purposes.  

 

I'm going to edit that post a bit to make it clearer that it is not simply a matter of obedience/following a command.  

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by marbel

[EmseB]

And what about horrible things happening that are not caused by humans?

My cousin died a slow, torturous, horrible death from ALS. The disease robbed her of her ability to execute her free will, and she watched herself lose all her faculties while retaining a clear mind. I can hardly imagine anything worse.

An entity that inflicts such a curse on a human cannot be well meaning and all powerful at the same time.

You'll have a hard time reconciling this view with Christianity since Christ lived a life and death of suffering and sacrifice. In light of eternity many view suffering in this earth to be for the greater good and something good that draws them closer to God and His character. I know many atheists who would disagree with that perspective or even call it foolish and naive. But that's not any kind of new conflict. In short, if someone doesn't believe in eternity of the human soul that exists even after physical suffering and death here on earth, their definition of what is good will be very different than someone who does.

 

If you're looking for a different perspective on suffering, the writings of Joni Eareckson Tada may be of interest. By your posts I can't tell if you're genuinely interested or just looking to poke holes into people's reasoning about their faith, but I thought I'd put it out there.

[Guest2]

Posted without quote, removed and posted with quote.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Silver Brook

[PeterPan]

Ah, OK, let me see if I understand it:

You pray because God tells you to, but not because you believe God will actually grant what you are asking for?

The prayer may or may not have the effect on the cause for which you are praying, but that does not matter because you are fulfilling an order - so you pray even when prayers seem to be unanswered, because of obedience?

 

That at least eliminates the dilemma.

I think people grow in their faith, in their confidence, and where they start isn't where they end in life. So to take a snapshot of someone at an age (18, 35, 50, 70) and say this is what they believe, this is the best it can be, that's not really something we're going to base our OWN faith on, kwim? We understand that people grow and learn and have experiences and change. Some people grow into significant faith. Some people become avidly religiously interested and read books on prayer and matters of faith. I think with that increasing faith comes increasing *confidence* and I think it's fine to view that as a journey of learning. 

 

And what about horrible things happening that are not caused by humans?

My cousin died a slow, torturous, horrible death from ALS. The disease robbed her of her ability to execute her free will, and she watched herself lose all her faculties while retaining a clear mind. I can hardly imagine anything worse.

An entity that inflicts such a curse on a human cannot be well meaning and all powerful at the same time.

 

You've really hit the crux and contradiction here. You view God as a being, since He cursed the world with decay, but you view him as a spirit/force and distant, apparently not helping the world. So there's sort of that contradiction to wrangle with, because I wouldn't think a force could curse the world and I wouldn't think a Being, who says He created the world to be relational and loves it, would choose to be distant. But that's just me.

 

You're asking very good questions. I think you have to go back to your presuppositions and think about what they mean. Well not that you have to, but you could. That to me is the interesting thing in the conversation. You're asking questions that people have asked for thousands of years and wrote plenty of good books on. I read many of them in college. 

 

I think people who believe God is a Being and who pray and see things happen (changes in their heart, provisions, providential arrangement of events or needs) don't feel it was random. 

 

I guess the question then is what you want? 

[SKL]

I don't have a scientific explanation, but I think there is one which I cannot prove.  I do believe that sending love helps, and I also believe that sending hate hurts.  (The help/hurt affects both the target and the sender.)  This is also a very ancient belief in many cultures.

[Guest2]

First, I am so sorry about your cousin. I am very familiar with ALS and it is horrible.

 

Second,I figured that would be your follow up. I need to teach now, but will try to answer (as well as I can) - part two of why God allows suffering: illness, natural disaster, accidents, this afternoon. Edited.. not this afternoon,but in afew days. Dd1 is leaving for college in 1 1/2 days and there is still a lot to do . I am agreeing woth many people posting above, but will see what I can come up with. It takes me a while to write.

And what about horrible things happening that are not caused by humans?

My cousin died a slow, torturous, horrible death from ALS. The disease robbed her of her ability to execute her free will, and she watched herself lose all her faculties while retaining a clear mind. I can hardly imagine anything worse.

An entity that inflicts such a curse on a human cannot be well meaning and all powerful at the same time.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Silver Brook

[marbel]

You'll have a hard time reconciling this view with Christianity since Christ lived a life and death of suffering and sacrifice. In light of eternity many view suffering in this earth to be for the greater good and something good that draws them closer to God and His character. I know many atheists who would disagree with that perspective or even call it foolish and naive. But that's not any kind of new conflict. In short, if someone doesn't believe in eternity of the human soul that exists even after physical suffering and death here on earth, their definition of what is good will be very different than someone who does.

 

If you're looking for a different perspective on suffering, the writings of Joni Eareckson Tada may be of interest. By your posts I can't tell if you're genuinely interested or just looking to poke holes into people's reasoning about their faith, but I thought I'd put it out there.

 

Yes.

 

I'm sorry for anyone who suffers a terrible disease.  As a counterpoint, though, I know a woman whose father died of ALS.  I never met him, but know her quite well and trust her when she says that though her father suffered, he never lost faith in God, trusted God till the end, and died confident that he would be with Christ.  She has suffered her own difficulties and always says "God is good, always."   

[regentrude]

You'll have a hard time reconciling this view with Christianity since Christ lived a life and death of suffering and sacrifice. In light of eternity many view suffering in this earth to be for the greater good and something good that draws them closer to God and His character. I know many atheists who would disagree with that perspective or even call it foolish and naive. But that's not any kind of new conflict. In short, if someone doesn't believe in eternity of the human soul that exists even after physical suffering and death here on earth, their definition of what is good will be very different than someone who does.

 

If you're looking for a different perspective on suffering, the writings of Joni Eareckson Tada may be of interest. By your posts I can't tell if you're genuinely interested or just looking to poke holes into people's reasoning about their faith, but I thought I'd put it out there.

 

As I hope I stated clearly earlier, I am not looking to "poke holes into people's faith", but trying to understand how believers think about prayer: why they pray, what they think it does exactly, how they reconcile it with the slim likelihood of receiving the desired outcome.

I have received several thoughful responses where people took time to explain how they think about prayer and how they wrestle with the problems that arise, and I appreciate that. 

 

As I also said, I do not believe in eternity and do not believe in Jesus as the literal son of  God, but from decades of being a Christian I am familiar with the concepts. 

[RegGuheert]

How can God be both omnipotent and benevolent?

Either he can intercede and chooses not to, which makes him not benevolent, or he is benevolent, but incapable which makes him not omnipotent. It cannot be both ways. 

It seems you define "benevolent" as preventing all pain and suffering.  But the logical conclusion is that if an omnipotent God prevented all pain and suffering, then that would mean that no one had free will.  Without free will, no one could love God.

 

No, God created humans with a capacity to love him (or not) and to be loved in return.  But that means that we *must* have the capacity for free will, otherwise our love is completely illusory.  But that free will allows us also to sin and to create pain and suffering in the world.

 

God's benevolence is seen is giving us the free will to love him and others while also providing for the forgiveness for our sins.

 

(And, yes, I understand that many Christians believe that we do not have free will.  I am not one of them since I believe that means God is the author of sin.)

[regentrude]

I gotta go to work, but will answer this real quick.

You've really hit the crux and contradiction here. You view God as a being, since He cursed the world with decay, but you view him as a spirit/force and distant, apparently not helping the world. So there's sort of that contradiction to wrangle with, because I wouldn't think a force could curse the world and I wouldn't think a Being, who says He created the world to be relational and loves it, would choose to be distant. But that's just me.

 

 

Yes, the contradiction is exactly how you describe. 

A force, or Holy Spirit, is not actively cursing people, is not causing bad things to happen, because it is not interfering with human's lives (but also won't intercede as a result of prayer). The problems arise as soon as I give the Divine attributes of a being who sometimes chooses to actively interfere. The conundrum does not exist if I remove this element.

 

 

You're asking very good questions. I think you have to go back to your presuppositions and think about what they mean. Well not that you have to, but you could. That to me is the interesting thing in the conversation. You're asking questions that people have asked for thousands of years and wrote plenty of good books on. I read many of them in college. 

I think people who believe God is a Being and who pray and see things happen (changes in their heart, provisions, providential arrangement of events or needs) don't feel it was random. 

 

I guess the question then is what you want? 

 

I know that the questions are not original. I have had conversations about this throughout my life. I had a very patient pasttor when I was a teen, and we spent hours wrestling with these issues.

 

What I want? I guess I want to understand what moves humans to faith, and how regular people - like us on this forum - deal with these fundamental questions, like evil, free will, etc. 

 

 

I guess the question then is what you want? 

[MommyLiberty5013]

Ah, OK, let me see if I understand it:

You pray because God tells you to, but not because you believe God will actually grant what you are asking for?

The prayer may or may not have the effect on the cause for which you are praying, but that does not matter because you are fulfilling an order - so you pray even when prayers seem to be unanswered, because of obedience?

 

That at least eliminates the dilemma.

I like your thoughts on this. I would offer the clarification that we don't follow an "order." It is the desire of God to be in fellowship or communion with His creation. Prayer is one means by which the relationship is begun and then grown. It could be said that the words of Scripture asking us to pray fervently are because He desires intimacy with us. He's that friend that rejoices when we call. But He waits for us to call because He gives us free will to do so. He is a gentleman.

[Pawz4me]

I have nothing substantive to add, but I just wanted to say that you're not alone, Regentrude. DH and I left the church years ago after grappling with this and similar questions. DH says Christians have come up with the perfect con game -- God never loses. If He answers prayer then people say "God is good." If He doesn't answer prayer then they say "It's God's will." I suppose both of those could be seen as true (by believers). But when considered objectively at best it seems to lead to all sorts of circular reasoning.

 

After years of going around and around I've come to the conclusion that I'm either an agnostic or a pantheist/panentheist. That varies by the day and even hour sometimes. ;)

 

I think people grow in their faith, in their confidence, and where they start isn't where they end in life. So to take a snapshot of someone at an age (18, 35, 50, 70) and say this is what they believe, this is the best it can be, that's not really something we're going to base our OWN faith on, kwim? We understand that people grow and learn and have experiences and change. Some people grow into significant faith. Some people become avidly religiously interested and read books on prayer and matters of faith. I think with that increasing faith comes increasing *confidence* and I think it's fine to view that as a journey of learning. 

 

And sometimes people grow away from faith. Even when a big part of them doesn't want to. Sometimes the cognitive dissonance simply becomes too much.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Pawz4me

[AmandaVT]

Add me in as another reading and following along with interest. Regentrude, you've expressed many of the thoughts I've had over the years, in a much better way than I've been able to express them. 

 

Thank you, everyone, for keeping this civil. I'm jotting down book recommendations and really enjoying this thread. 

[Katy]

My main reason for prayer is the verse that we have not because we ask not, or because we ask amiss.

 

As for why some prayers aren't answered, at least not in the way we would like, I look to Job.

 

I have had many prayers go unanswered.  I have also had issues where I wished I had prayed about something sooner, because the moment my wish turned into a prayer, it was answered within a few days.

[regentrude]

As for why some prayers aren't answered, at least not in the way we would like, I look to Job.

 

To a person who is questioning faith, the Book of Job is horrifying. Job is used as a pawn in a power game between God and Satan. I do not wish to believe in such a cruel god.

 

[Murphy101]

To a person who is questioning faith, the Book of Job is horrifying. Job is used as a pawn in a power game between God and Satan. I do not wish to believe in such a cruel god.

 

Alas, I admit I'm not a fan of that book in the Bible either.

[barnwife]

Jesus was a man who came from humble origins (nativity), underwent a spiritual search (desert), and became a spiritual leader for a small community (disciples). He seems to have been a very intelligent and precocious child. He preached ideas that were every progressive for his time and have still validity. He was executed for his views (in the complicated political context). 

I neither believe in the literal immaculate conception nor in the literal resurrection. I can take both as metaphors. I do not believe in an afterlife.

This thread is getting me thinking. I don't have time now to really get my thoughts down. But you mentioned the Immaculate Conception. FWIW, to Roman Catholics at least, that term refers to the conception of Mary without original sin. It does not refer to how Jesus was conceived.

 

And what about horrible things happening that are not caused by humans?

My cousin died a slow, torturous, horrible death from ALS. The disease robbed her of her ability to execute her free will, and she watched herself lose all her faculties while retaining a clear mind. I can hardly imagine anything worse.

An entity that inflicts such a curse on a human cannot be well meaning and all powerful at the same time.

I am quoting you here because I want to respond to this specifically later and this will help me find it.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Regentrude, I will come back and tackle your questions after my coffee has kicked in this morning and the cobwebs have left my brain!

But I wanted to say, thank you for asking the questions and for your candor. It's refreshing!

 

Back in a little while . . .

[MBM]

The purpose of my question was not to be convinced that prayer works.

The purpose was to understand how praying people think about prayer and the mechanism in which this accomplishes an effect in the person for whom they pray (not in thepraying person herself)

 

I like Mother Teresa's take on what prayer can do:

 

“I used to pray that God would feed the hungry, or do this or that, but now I pray that He will guide me to do whatever I'm supposed to do, what I can do. I used to pray for answers, but now I'm praying for strength. I used to believe that prayer changes things, but now I know that prayer changes us and we change things.â€

 

The Peace Intention Experiment, where people have meditated for peace, has had interesting results. Prayer may be similar.

 

http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/peace/about.htm

Edited August 17, 2017 by MBM

[Saddlemomma]

I haven't read the other responses, so please disregard any repeated information.  Another thing is that my view of God and faith is probably going to be quite different from yours.  No one has the "definitive" answer about God and theology.  If we did, then there would be no need of further study. So, glean what you want and throw away the chaff.

 

The concept of prayer encompasses a great deal of theology.  If you want a quick answer, there isn't one. It's not as simple as "I don't see God answering the prayers of the Holocaust sufferers so there can't be an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God." You need to first consider who you think God is and what is your view of God? I can guarantee from your original post that you will not like my idea of who I think God is.  However, here goes...it's most likely going to be long.

 

In my view God created everything, including me, to accomplish his purpose – not for my purpose.  Since he created me, I belong to him.  I'm beholden to him. I’m his servant. He can do anything he likes to me, including deciding my time on Earth is at an end and remove me at any time. I believe this is applicable to everyone on this Earth; including the people of the Holocaust. Many non-believers don't like this because they can't imagine or even contemplate the idea that they owe their lives to anyone.  They are beholden to no one. Many disregard the notion that they have a very real authority figure above them. They are lord unto themselves. In other words, they hold the selfish notion of autonomy. Their views are more important than those of any others.  We see this especially in politics and so-called “social justice†today: Republicans vs. Democrats, Whites vs. Blacks (and vice-versa with any other ethnicity) Gays vs. Heteros (and vice-versa), rich vs. poor, etc. The list goes on and on ad nausea. This is why someone or group will always be discriminated against.  Everyone always thinks their personal idea/agenda of what is right is the only moral right. God’s objective morality is actually the only answer.

 

While God demonstrated his omnipotence through creation, he also demonstrated his benevolence in his gift of free will to his imagers – humans. He could have created us as automatons and the Fall never would have happened.  However, in his omniscience, he knew that for his purposes of communion with his created beings, automatons would have proved hollow and unfulfilling. God wanted communion with his imagers.  This is indicated by his desire to be with his creation in Eden through direct conversation and even after the Fall through angels, Jesus (in the guise of the Angel of the Lord) and the prophets.  God continued to communicate to his imagers throughout the New Testament through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God still desires communication with his imagers to this day.  For most, that communication mechanism is prayer and the Holy Spirit dwelling within those who believe.

 

There are many different types of prayer.  Unfortunately, the only one people seem to focus on today is intercessory prayer, of which you are referring to. I must admit that I have had many of my intercessory prayers answered, but I am not arrogant enough to assume that God answered them in the affirmative to please me. I’m of the opinion that they were answered because they fulfilled some part of God’s purpose or will.  I believe that we are all like pebbles dropped into a vast sea. When we hit the water we cause ripples. Those ripples reverberate within the waters.  Our free-will choices influence events. God enhances, bends, directs, redirects, or stops those events to accomplish his grand scheme.  So yes, the Holocaust happened, however, I’m sure many prayers were also answered in the form of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Corrie Ten Boom, Diet Eman, all those who sheltered so many Jews, Christians, and others persecuted by the Nazis. Denial of my prayer requests may be an affirmation for someone else’s request because that request furthers God’s plan where mine does not. God didn’t promise us a rose garden. He promised suffering in this world as Christ suffered. If we can’t handle it, we shouldn’t take up His cross.  If we aren't willing to sacrifice ourselves, we shouldn't claim Christ because he paid the ultimate sacrifice for us.

 

What totally amazes me when I hear questions like this, is the total disregard for the fact that we live in a Fallen world caused by our own free will through the temptation of evil. It’s not the ideal that God first created.  His love, desire for a human family, and gift of free will came at a price--one that he pointed out at the very first when he told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil or they would surely die. Our punishment was the loss of immortality and living in a cursed world. So yes, in a cursed world there are going to be diseases, wars, mass destruction, murders, depravity, natural disasters, and deaths for both the Christian and the unbeliever. God is no respecter of persons in that regard. However, out of benevolence and love, through his omniscience he planned in advance for our eventual disobedience. He planned for a way to save us through his own monumental sacrifice. Again, we were given a choice – accept his gift or not.  There would be no third opportunity.

 

Let us also not forget, which many conveniently do, that God is not the only unseen entity in the picture. We are at war, and have been since the beginning, with the forces of evil. We can sit and discuss God and his perceived “failings†all day long, and yet, those who want to castigate a God they don’t believe in are silent about Satan.  How does that work?  I suggest that you can’t even begin a conversation about the antithetical notion of a benevolent God allowing such atrocious acts like the Holocaust without also discussing what role Satan has to play in the drama unfolding in the supernatural world.  That is a discussion that usually produces the sounds of crickets in the audience. “Well,†they say, “we don’t believe in Satan.†Then you shouldn’t be discussing God either. You either believe in the supernatural or you don’t. You can’t understand what is good unless you have bad to contrast with it. Similarly you can’t have God without Satan and evil.

 

There are consequences for rebellion. God can’t be held responsible for our choice to constantly rebel and disregard his laws.  When you disregard the laws of our government, you are punished accordingly. Would you abolish this for your own personal gain?  When your children misbehave, they are, I assume, punished in some fashion in an effort to correct that behavior.  Is God, as our creator, any less of a parent to his children?

 

Another thing you may contemplate….Is death the final frontier?  We are all appointed to die at some point. It's inevitable regardless of age. Is it the worst that could happen? For a Christian, the answer should be no. In some ways, death, regardless of the method, would be relief from suffering and joy to be entering into Heaven with our Lord. It’s all a matter of perspective.

 

Prayer is a form of communication with God–not just “asking†for things. We pray to thank God, praise Him, and sometimes just to talk and feel close to Him as a form of comfort.  Does this mean he doesn’t already know what we are going to say? No, but according to scripture, he wants the fellowship, as illustrated throughout the Bible.  Prayer is much more than what it is made out to be.

 

If, as you say, you are serious about wanting to gain insight into such a huge topic and to properly understand the role of prayer in our lives, you need to have a proper understanding of God’s plan for his creation, Satan’s opposition to God’s plan, and our role within the scope of both. To that end, I suggest you read Unseen Realm by Dr. Michael Heiser. It would be quite the eye-opener. I’m sure there are other authors out there that can address prayer more directly, but I’m not familiar with all of them and, to be honest, I find a lot of them filled with “fluffy, feel good†information rather than the real meat behind the meaning of prayer. As my DD says, “Heiser is the meat that I want.†Other articles that may be of interest:

·         Imprecatory prayers

·         God and Disaster

·         Miracles and Unbelief