my daughters fight constantly... HELP!

[sdab]

Hello!

I need your advice on the problems I have with my daughters. I have three children - 7,5 yo, 3,5 yo and 8 weeks old. The middle one has always been disobedient. She teases her older sister, who gets very cross and has started to be obsessively envious about all her possessions. When the oldest daughter get something as a gift or considers something as belonging to her, even though it is everyone's (things like paint, playdough, ps4 game CDs, puzzles etc.), she goes on saying "it's mine, don't touch it" and stuffes things on high shelves or in drawers. She is so afraid of her sister breaking/staining things, that she follows her constantly and sets strange rules like "mom is downstairs so you cannot go upstairs". This encourages my 3yo to try harder to get those things... The oldest one cannot sleep in, because she's afraid her sister will play with her toys. When she doesn't know where the 3 yo is, she asks me or goes looking for her. She cannot concentrate on anything, because she keeps on checking what her sister is doing... It is like an obsession! Neither of them seems to have their lives now. I know it is a poor excuse but I happen to be busy or simply tired and I can't spend my every minute with them and scold the middle child on time. The oldest one has always been very sweet and lovable but now almost all I hear from her are harsh words. She always picks better/prettier things for her. All this has been going on for at least a year but it has got much stronger during the last months of my pregnancy and after labour. We are about to start another school year soon, but I am sure the oldest one won't be able to concentrate on studying with her habits of controlling her sister. Today she said she wanted to keep the school room locked, so her sister wouldn't be able to leave the room unnoticed (she even thought about bringing in the potty....). PLEASE HELP!!!!!! What have I done wrong and how can I fix it?

[Stibalfamily]

Anything that my kids are fighting over/ not being shared or used as a weapon gets confiscated by me. If you can't play nice with it you don't deserve it. I put it on the fridge and they can have it the next day. Doors stay open here, there is no reason for them to be shut. I don't know what to do about being bossy, we deal with that too. I do have a rule that while we are doing school you stay seated till your next break, period. Unless you have to pee of course. 

[Kiara.I]

So...

When I hear a 3.5 year old characterized as "disobedient" I kind of wonder...because that's a really normal developmental stage, and it seems like kind of early to be labelling her as "bad."  It's possible that your oldest was a more compliant child, sure, but changing how you think of your middle child is quite important, I think.

 

Different children have different personalities, but looking for the good in those personalities is very important.  A stronger-willed child will make an *amazing* grownup, but not if they get negatively labeled from the time they're a child, you know?  What amazing gifts does your 3.5-year-old have?  What are some fabulous traits about her?

 

You might benefit from reading The Child Whisperer, which talks about the different energy types of children and how that can play out.  Your oldest and your middle sound like very different types--but BOTH types have gifts they bring, and it's important to teach your children to honour the gifts that other types bring to their lives, rather than wanting all people to be the same type as them.  That might help your older to be a little less...controlling...with your middle.  Your middle is a bit young to learn to respect older sister's need for precision, you'll need to be stepping in to help with that, of course.

 

Also, you're talking about scolding the middle "on time."  It sounds a bit like you're getting caught up in your oldest's drama when, to me, it sounds like oldest is hyper-controlling and it's actually not all the middle child's problem.  Oldest needs to learn to relax some of the control, rather than you scolding the middle to help out the oldest.

 

I also think it might be worth talking to a doctor about your oldest's level of anxiety.  It's fine to have a few of the special toys that are kept out of reach of younger siblings but it sounds like she's worried about ALL the things.  It seems to be affecting her ability to cope with daily life.  

[kiwik]

I was the oldest and I still sometimes resent that when I was at school my stepmother wouldn't let me shut the door of my room or keep my brother out. I often came home to find treasured possessions broken. I would allow you oldest to pick he favourite stuff to keep safe. I let the kids keep a gift that is meant to share to themselves for a week before putting it in the family stuff. That said my kids manage to wind each other up a fair amount and it sometimes drives me crazy.

[HomeAgain]

I'm going to say this gently because you sound tired.  You have listed all the problems with your children, but not anything on your part that either helps or hinders the situation.  I find it a little worrying that a 3.5yo could have 'always been disobedient'.  It says more about how you feel than about the child.  It's time to take a step back and put techniques into place that focus not on control, but on teaching and guiding within limits.  What skills do you want them to learn?  How will you teach the skills?  How much time are you willing to devote to each?

I think I'd start with making a list of all the house rules and/or standards.  Figure out the most important and list them on the wall with a picture to help guide the 3.5yo.  This is your beginning.  When the 7yo oversteps, refer her to the list.  When the 3yo oversteps, refer her to the list.  Help them to know what exactly the expectations are and aren't before you start teaching.  Then you have to give each child focus.  If the 3yo teases, what is the appropriate response?  How can you teach her not to tease?  Around here, it would be removal so that the situation is broken and her attention could be turned to me and/or calming down.  As soon as she's calm, the teaching would start: what to say instead, how to apologize, how to deal with feelings.  When the 7yo oversteps, help her dial it back, but also help her defend what is truly hers by teaching the 3yo healthy respect.

 

There are books to help.  I personally like Siblings Without Rivalry and Kids Are Worth It because they give a lot of room for implementation in our own way instead of having a set script that may or may not work with my kids.

 

[Guest]

3 year olds (and you said this started at 2, last year) are basically babies. They need to be with an adult almost all the time, not a 6, then 7, year old. So what I'd do is keep the little one with me more often.

 

7 year olds are not so far out of babyhood themselves that they just KNOW how to behave. So there, I'd work on giving her a calm base to start with, then address issues that pop up as opportunities to learn how to be a bug girl.

 

Hugs. Those are all difficult ages in their own ways.

[Ellie]

How do you correct the 5yo  when she misbehave?

[Guest]

How do you correct the 5yo  when she misbehave?

 

ages are 7, 3, infant

[nixpix5]

ages are 7, 3, infant

I think she is referring to the 7yo, 5yo and 3.5 yo as the ones fighting. I read the 5 year old as the one being disobedient, not the 3.5 yr old. I assumed she meant the 5 year old as the middle daughter. It got confusing due to baby. Maybe OP can clarify...

 

ETA Nope...went back and read it and I think you are right. Now I am really confused...

Edited August 16, 2017 by nixpix5

[Farrar]

I think the 7 yo is right. Obviously some things should be shared, but she's old enough to have some things that are special to her because her sister is a good bit younger. She probably does break things and mess them up. That's totally age appropriate for a 3 yo. And saying that the 3 yo is often not nice to her - it sounds to me like the 7 yo doesn't feel safe or protected in the household and this is her way of trying to regain some control. I especially think the 7 yo should have her own craft supplies if that's important to her. I mean, some 7 yos are meticulous and great artists, can use scissors to a reasonable detail, and are just interested in having things neat. 3 yos just aren't. They mostly smear paint and draw wild shapes and that's awesome too, but it's a whole other world from what some 7 yos are into in terms of small motor skills and art.

 

Basically, I wouldn't fight this by insisting that the children share everything. I'd fight it by giving the 7 yo what she needs - which is personal space and possessions. And then, once that's established, I'd work on getting her to loosen up about all the other stuff that should be shared.

 

As for the 3 yo... I'm seconding the concern about calling her disobedient.

 

And I'll also second Siblings Without Rivalry.

[barnwife]

Well, I have a 7 yo, 5 yo, almost 4 yo, and a 7 mo. As a general rule, they get along fine. There are certainly times they don't though. Then I declare it "reset time" and give everyone something to do alone and place to do it. (One might get legos, another books, another puzzles.)

I also want to mention that we are getting in a groove now. When the 7 mo was only 8 weeks? It was survival mode. Total survival mode. TV/youtube got used much more than I like.

For now, I'd say prioritize sleep (for everyone). Also, each of my kids has a plastic milk crate as their special place. They can keep whatever they want in it. No one else can mess with it. When it starts to overflow, I go through it with them. Usually, some things that used to be special have lost their appeal and can be gotten rid of or put wherever it really belongs.

So, while I agree with pp about how you came across in your post, you are also in a big transition time for your family. You've realized things aren't going well and are trying to make a plan to get things back on track. Congrats on the new LO!

[HS Mom in NC]

Always disobedient is a red flag about parental perception.  A parent labeling a 3 year old like this is alarming but it's a short post, so it's hard to know exactly what the OP means by it.
 

Anyone would be concerned with a 3 year old breaking and staining things because breaking and staining things is typical 3 year old behavior. Breakable and staining things should be kept out of reach of the 3 year old and only brought out under adult supervision or while the 3 year old is napping.

Everything isn't communal property. Things given specifically to one child and projects made with communal craft supplies completed by the child belong to the child and the rules of possession apply: if someone else wants it, they have to ask for and receive permission, only someone developmentally capable of using it after getting permission should have it and they should return it in the condition it was given, it should be returned in a reasonable amount of time, it should be used under appropriate supervision if applicable, etc.

My guess, based on what I read in the post (granted, it isn't much so I can only go on impressions) is that the "strange rule" as you call it, "Mom is downstairs so you cannot go upstairs" is a 7 year olds attempt at forcing you to do some adult supervision by keeping the 3 year old on the same floor as you. I'm guessing her "obsessive"  behavior wanting to check on her sister all the time is to provide the supervision she thinks should be happening.

Did you label your 3 year old disobedient because you tell her not to get into things, to take turns and to share, and then you expect her to follow through without adult supervision and guidance? If so, that's not realistic. Do you have a free spirit, free flow, spontaneous, it's all good personality? You may not, but I'm wondering if the oldest is a more structured personality (on top of the issues I've already listed) and you might not have experience dealing with that personality type.   Some of us loathe and despise what we consider chaos.  Everyone has different criteria for what they consider chaos, but if you have a child who thrives in structure, order and some rules and you don't have and enforce much structure, order and any rules, it's deeply disturbing for them.  Notice I didn't say they don't prefer it, I said it's disturbing to them.

I have a big age gap between my older two and the youngest.  That meant only things the youngest was allowed to get into were accessible to her. Other things were on high shelves and in private spaces like bedrooms.  Youngest wasn't allowed to get into everyone's stuff but her stuff was where she could easily get to it.  I kept youngest with me while schooling the older two and only sometimes had her in the playroom on her own while I was working with the older two.  She had an area of the school room where she had a large colorful mat, her toys (I rotated special toys each week for her during school hours) where she could be with us.  If she got too loud and energetic she could go to the next room which was a playroom.  She wasn't allowed in her sister's rooms upstairs unless they invited her in, so their breakables and special possessions could be stored safely. My middle daughter loved to build with Kinex and do beadwork and would have pieces all sorted out by size and color-a serious choking hazard.  Youngest's books were at the bottom of the communal bookshelves where she had easy access and everyone else's books were up higher in the schoolroom bookcases and in their bedroom bookcases. 

I only took toys away from a kid misusing them or being mean about them.  If the other kid was trying to play reasonably and kindly with her sibling I didn't punish her too.  People who play nicely with a toy get to keep playing with the toy.  People who play badly with the toy don't get to play with the toy for a while.

 

[Ellie]

ages are 7, 3, infant

 

Sorry. It was hard to read your original post. :-)

 

How do you correct the 3yo when she behaves inappropriately? Or the 7yo, for that matter?

[Farrar]

Sorry. It was hard to read your original post. :-)

 

How do you correct the 3yo when she behaves inappropriately? Or the 7yo, for that matter?

 

I think maybe the OP is British... or European? She used commas where we'd use periods - as in, her oldest is 7.5 or seven and a half yo but she wrote 7,5. I think that's what threw us off. :)

[daijobu]

I was the oldest and I still sometimes resent that when I was at school my stepmother wouldn't let me shut the door of my room or keep my brother out. I often came home to find treasured possessions broken. I would allow you oldest to pick he favourite stuff to keep safe. I let the kids keep a gift that is meant to share to themselves for a week before putting it in the family stuff. That said my kids manage to wind each other up a fair amount and it sometimes drives me crazy.

 

I'm also an older sister and I also believe that children are entitled to some property rights.  I second the advice to make an effort to protect her special stuff.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'm always a little hesitant to respond to such complex first-time posts...

 

But I do highly recommend two books:

Simplicity Parenting

Siblings without Rivalry

 

Contrary to what we might think, children with less possessions are more likely to share.  I would start by reading Simplicity Parenting and then do a very deep declutter of "stuff".  From there, each of my own kids has a "special box" about the size of a shoe box where they can put items they don't want to share.  Birthday presents also get a one-week-don't-need-to-share policy, as do ONE OR TWO very special stuffed animals that stay on the kids' beds.  Everything else?  It may have an owner, but if that owner isn't using it, another kid can play with it and return it when they are done.  

 

Next, read Siblings Without Rivalry and change your language use towards your kids and their conflicts.  This is a life-altering book IMO.  

 

Finally, I do think your oldest sounds borderline obsessive or anxious.  I'd see if cleaning up the extra stuff and changing language is enough, otherwise... I'd bring her to the pediatrician and talk through your observations.  

 

I cannot imagine a 3.5 year old who is getting enough attention would be so incredibly antagonistic to a sibling, so I'd focus on more attention for her and thinking up some positive activities for sister bonding as well.  I know you have a baby, but in many ways, an 8 month old is easier than a 3 year old and your energy really needs to be directed to the toddler- she's crying out for it.  

[maize]

I think maybe the OP is British... or European? She used commas where we'd use periods - as in, her oldest is 7.5 or seven and a half yo but she wrote 7,5. I think that's what threw us off. :)

Oh funny, I didn't note the notation at all because it is familiar from living in Europe as a kid; I couldn't figure out why people were confused.

[maize]

OP, you've got a situation where a seven year old is feeling a need to parent a three year old. And yes it sounds like both need more actual parenting. The seven year old could benefit from some reasonable protection of private space/posessions--maybe a locking drawer or cabinet? She also needs gentle reminders that she is not a parent and is not responsible for controlling the behavior of her sister. The three year old is, as others have mentioned, probably being a pretty normal three year old and does not benefit from being labeled as naughty and being regularly scolded. Making messes and getting into stuff is what three year olds do. Sometimes these kids benefit from focused one on one time with a parent early in the day, it helps fill up their "need attention from mom" bucket and allows them to feel and act more settled.

 

Siblings Without Rivalry, mentioned above, is a good book. So is Peaceful Parent Happy Siblings.

 

Sometimes sibling relationships are just hard--kids are immature by necessity and needing to cope every day with different personalities doesn't come naturally to many. I have one of mine in school rather than at home right now partly to give them a break from a difficult sibling dynamic.

Edited August 17, 2017 by maize

[Ellie]

I'm always a little hesitant to respond to such complex first-time posts...

 

 

Oh, I forgot to notice how many posts. Hmmm...now I'm wondering if this is a real thing or not...

[AlyssaJJ]

I think you should explain to your oldest daughter that having her stuff for her is alright, without all that "sharing is caring" words. But still there will always be something, that she wouldn't be able to control or take just for herself like paint, playdough, ps4 game CDs, puzzles etc. as you've said. I think that the eldest daughter is just jealous and it's understandable. Because previously only she has all the attention, and now she has "competition" in the form of 2 more children! Show that you love them the same way and ask your husband to help you solve the situation.

[fralala]

It's totally normal for siblings to fight.

 

it's totally normal for one overextended parent (with a new baby) to be unable to give them all the attention they crave.

 

It's totally normal for this to create a cycle of behaving badly and said parent just wanting to escape with the good child (the baby!).

 

If you are still around, sdab, I hope you have a support system and that you do not take the recommendations you've received as criticism of your parenting. In fact, knowing what one should do (or another parent should do) is a totally different matter than doing it. I know I've read the wonderful books recommended above, and still get trapped in the negative cycle when I'm sleep-deprived, or overextended, or lacking a support system. Expecting our children to behave perfectly all the time means we're often too hard on ourselves, as well. Go easy on your kids, and go easy on yourself. A new baby is a very difficult transition, and it takes a lot of hard work to make everybody feel loved and appreciated on a daily (hourly) basis. Now I have to go do some of that work myself, because I have one kid calling the other a poopy, the other screaming that the other called her a vampire, and another peering over my shoulder to read what I've been potentially saying about her...nothing causes bad behavior more in this household than a parent paying attention to a Device!

[Hobbes]

A new baby is a very difficult transition, and it takes a lot of hard work to make everybody feel loved and appreciated on a daily (hourly) basis.

Just wanted to second this.

 

With each baby, I grow more aware that I need to allow more grace for the "baby year" as we all adapt and adjust. We all adore babies here, but everything shifts around until we reach our new dynamic.

 

I can also empathize with having a child who has a harder time with obedience than others. I was a child like that and I have at least two like that. I understand that in the face of parenting a strong-willed child, it feels like that child is always just disobedient and it is hard to find another way to describe it. You're humbly asking what has gone wrong and how to fix it - I think that's a sign of an engaged, caring parent.

 

So maybe you need to adjust some things. Do give your oldest things that are her own and a way to protect them (as the oldest of 5, I can totally relate to that need. So would my oldest). Do give your preschooler lots of positive attention and also appropriate discipline for disobedience. Consistency is so key. Pull her closer. Think about what else you can let slide in order to have energy for those things.

 

Sometimes even the language we use can help. "Oh, honey, thank you for helping me with that, I know it's hard when the baby always wants Mommy." "Oh, the baby is so blessed to have a sister like you who can teach her _____!" "You know what, the baby is a little unhappy, but she can wait a minute because it is very important that I give you a snuggle." Etc. I've been amazed at the impact that kind of talking has on my kids. It says that you "get" them and agree with their legitimate frustrations, and it leaves them far more open to training about other issues.

 

There is no quick fix, but good for you for identifying the issue and seeking out direction for adjusting, in the midst of the exhaustion.

[Susan in TX]

You say that you cannot spend every minute with them and scold the 3 year old on time but that is precisely what you need to do to get control over this situation. I would be very vigilant with the 3 year old and keep her near me. That will make it easier to nip the bad behavior in the bud and also keep her out of trouble. I would set up a play space for her wherever you happen to be. If you have to do chores let her follow you around and "help".

 

I would not expect the 7 year old to share all of her things. She needs her own space where she can keep things out of her sister's reach.

 

Susan in TX

 

 

[LMD]

I'm always a little hesitant to respond to such complex first-time posts...

 

But I do highly recommend two books:

Simplicity Parenting

Siblings without Rivalry

 

Contrary to what we might think, children with less possessions are more likely to share. I would start by reading Simplicity Parenting and then do a very deep declutter of "stuff". From there, each of my own kids has a "special box" about the size of a shoe box where they can put items they don't want to share. Birthday presents also get a one-week-don't-need-to-share policy, as do ONE OR TWO very special stuffed animals that stay on the kids' beds. Everything else? It may have an owner, but if that owner isn't using it, another kid can play with it and return it when they are done.

 

Next, read Siblings Without Rivalry and change your language use towards your kids and their conflicts. This is a life-altering book IMO.

 

Finally, I do think your oldest sounds borderline obsessive or anxious. I'd see if cleaning up the extra stuff and changing language is enough, otherwise... I'd bring her to the pediatrician and talk through your observations.

 

I cannot imagine a 3.5 year old who is getting enough attention would be so incredibly antagonistic to a sibling, so I'd focus on more attention for her and thinking up some positive activities for sister bonding as well. I know you have a baby, but in many ways, an 8 month old is easier than a 3 year old and your energy really needs to be directed to the toddler- she's crying out for it.

Can you please tell me who wrote siblings without rivalry? I can see three books with this title! (I am assuming that it's the one by Faber...)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Can you please tell me who wrote siblings without rivalry? I can see three books with this title! (I am assuming that it's the one by Faber...)

Yes, same authors as How to talk so kids can listen and listen so kids can talk

[LMD]

Yes, same authors as How to talk so kids can listen and listen so kids can talk

Thank you.