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6 year old daughter needs better social skills


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My daughter was homeschooled for K and we just started our homeschool 1st grade on Monday. My husband has always thought we are making a mistake by homeschooling because she lacks appropriate social skills and he thinks being in school would help. She is extremely outgoing but does not pick up other people's social cues well. She is very much a "leader" and can come across as too bossy as well. She also has major issues with emotional regulation and so meltdowns and temper tantrums are frequent. We both agree she needs more chance to socialize so she is in a co-op 1x a week and also attends class for 2 hours each week at her charter school (charter school that partners with homeschool parents). My husband and I both think that it is just not enough socialization time for her to learn social skills and my husband has almost convinced me to put her in public school for 1st grade, even though she will be starting a few weeks late. My daughter has definite attention and focus issues though. (I am confident she has ADHD-inattentive even though she has not been officially diagnosed.) She is bright but I am concerned she would be so distracted by the other children she would not learn anything because she is so focused on trying to play and make friends. I am also concerned she will have trouble with the teacher because of her lack of focus and not listening well. I am sick to my stomach worrying about the right thing to do and have not slept more than a few hours a night in weeks. Am I worrying too much about social skills in a 6 year old...or not enough? Help!!

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In my limited experience, dd picks up bad manners from group classes. Having just a few (well chosen) friends for playdates seems to work better. We still let her attend group functions, but have to discuss why she can't do things that she sees other children doing.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary.

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I suppose it depends on the frequency and severity of those tantrums and so forth, but overall, you're describing a 6 yo who is well within the normal parameters of 6 yos for social skills. Many kids still have tantrums occasionally at that age. Nearly all kids that age struggle to read social cues and do things like keep talking or trying to steamroll the conversation. Most kids who like to be in charge are still figuring out how to do that without being rude at that age. Really, you're describing an average kid.

 

Kids in school don't learn great social skills. They learn school skills. So, that includes sitting quietly while the teacher talks, lining up, asking permission to do everything. It does not include playing better with others, reading social cues, not getting upset when they're out of school and safe at home.

 

You say she's in a co-op and in a charter school class. What about open ended stuff? Park days, for example. Do you just hang out and play with other kids? One of the biggest benefits to homeschool *is* the socialization. Obviously every homeschooling situation is different and sometimes this sort of group isn't available, but my own kids learned to socialize not through sitting quietly in a classroom but by being at large, multi-aged kid events, running around in the woods with other kids around their age, and getting to spend extended time with their friends with parents nearby to help them learn to work out disputes. We also learned a lot of social skills from doing Destination Imagination, though I think any teams where kids really have to participate would do it, whether it's robotics or soccer or anything else.

 

I think you're just framing this all wrong basically. Maybe she has a social skills deficit (though I don't know that she really does), but school isn't a magic way to fix that. I'm sure some kids go to school and thrive. But some kids who have social skills deficits go to school and become the target of bullies, lose their natural leadership desires, and basically end up anxious and miserable. But if they'd stayed home and just grown up and out of some of their little kid awkwardness with decent parental guidance, then it all would have resolved itself.

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So, it's probably a combination of a bunch of things.

 

First, yes, you're probably worrying too much about a 6-year-old's social skills.  6-year-olds are immature.  Sort of obviously, when one phrases it that way.  ;)

 

Second, you're describing issues that aren't going to magically fix themselves by just being around other kids more.  I mean, they will...eventually...probably....with maturity.  But it's not like some kid on the playground is going to say, "Hey, stop that," and she'll have some kind of lightbulb moment that fixes everything, you know?  She'd go to school and STILL be bossy and inattentive and miss others' cues.

 

Sending her to school won't likely teach her better emotional regulation.  She might get shamed for not having it and learn to stuff it, but that's not exactly a stellar end goal. 

 

Anyway, these skills are ones that you can deliberately scaffold and work on.  So it could be done more effectively by you than just by the greater mass of also-immature 6-year-olds at school are capable of teaching her.

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Have you tried social groups for her - like Girl Scouts, adventure clubs, library clubs, etc.. You can try other classes as well. Look around your area and see who offers art classes, dance classes, soccer, etc.. If you are religious churches or temples are great for kids' classes. 

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I don't think anyone here can tell you what to do, especially considering it's a debate you and your DH need to have.  

 

What I can say is that in our friend circle, I know several little girls who are DIFFICULT, very similar to what you are describing.  I also see their moms (homeschool) keep eagle eyes on those tough cookies and coach them through almost every social interaction to help build skills.  And it is working.  The girls are so much better now than a year ago, and unrecognizable from 2 years ago.  In my mind, the more time the child is with a competent parent, the more coaching and scaffolding that can happen.  This will also make other kids feel more comfortable befriending the difficult child, because they know that if she explodes, her mom will step in and help to settle her and resolve the problem fairly.  

 

I don't think that kind of coaching can happen in most school settings, and instead she would learn to regulate her behavior due to the strong negative reactions of her peers, and even possible ostracizing.  It may be enough to guide her to better social behavior, or it may be misery for her.  

 

Obviously you see which direction I lean.  But I also think a happy marriage is more important than a school choice, so I'd work on finding agreement with your DH.  

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I don't think that sort of thing is unusual at six, and really it is just some time that will improve it.  My ds was still having meltdowns in Sunday school at 6.  Now at 7 I can let him go down to the nursery without me and depend on him to be civilized.

 

I don't think being in a large group of kids all day will improve the situation - if anything, it might make it worse.

 

It is a good thing to spend time with other kids, but I would suggest shorter amounts of time than ps, and smaller groups of kids than you find in most classrooms.

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You can talk with your pediatrician about referrals for a behaviorist or social skills group. Some children will learn through more exposure, but some kids need more explicit instruction. She might need some ADHD meds paired with the behavioral work to help her slow down and notice how people are feeling around her.

 

SocialThinking.com has excellent materials you could use with her. Their programs We Thinkers 1 is where she would begin. It's the kind of stuff they might do with her in school if she had an IEP and qualified. They would give her explicit instruction in noticing group plan, how other people are feeling or reacting, etc. 

 

As far as saying it will come with time, well that just really depends on the severity of the social thinking deficits. Socialthinking - Articles  This article lists profiles which tend to be pretty fixed by about age 8. At that point, kids are improving relative to themselves but tend to stay within the social thinking profile patterns. So their peers progress and they progress, but the kids are really progressing only relative to themselves, not their peers.

 

It's very important to be honest about what's going on and the degree of what is going on. What you're describing could be anything from a mild thing that resolves easily to something where she benefits from meds and social thinking instruction all the way to autism or something just shy of autism. There's a wide *spectrum* there, and it's better to figure out where your dc is in it and target the instruction appropriately than to think oh she'll outgrow it or it will go away. We have EXCELLENT materials available now. It would be preferable to intervene, do something like We Thinkers 1 and 2, get some behavioral help for the ADHD, get some screenings for other things... This is a great age to intervene. The materials are fabulous and she won't buck you. She's not dealing with the severe social consequences of leaving it without intervention, and there's not really harm in doing social thinking. All it does is bump their understanding.

 

Any food allergies? Gluten issues suspected? 

Sensory issues?

Family history of anything?

 

My ds has an IEP and we've done a lot of the stuff I'm describing. Your dd is at a GREAT age to be doing work, and it's not true the ps would just do nothing. They might give her OT goals and work on that self-regulation with OT. They have some really terrific programs like 5 Point Scale and ALERT. The Social Thinking website I linked sells those. We've done them. We've done We Thinkers 1 and 2. We're doing Superflex and some other stuff now. This is good stuff!

 

I would be concerned about what you're missing by not getting screened and finding out what is going on. But I'm taking you at your word. If somebody comes on and says MAJOR meltdowns, I think they mean it. So you would talk with your ped, get referrals, get access to these better programs, build a team. Anything the ps would do, you can do privately and typically better.

 

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I don't think anyone here can tell you what to do, especially considering it's a debate you and your DH need to have.  

 

What I can say is that in our friend circle, I know several little girls who are DIFFICULT, very similar to what you are describing.  I also see their moms (homeschool) keep eagle eyes on those tough cookies and coach them through almost every social interaction to help build skills.  And it is working.  The girls are so much better now than a year ago, and unrecognizable from 2 years ago.  In my mind, the more time the child is with a competent parent, the more coaching and scaffolding that can happen.  This will also make other kids feel more comfortable befriending the difficult child, because they know that if she explodes, her mom will step in and help to settle her and resolve the problem fairly.  

 

I don't think that kind of coaching can happen in most school settings, and instead she would learn to regulate her behavior due to the strong negative reactions of her peers, and even possible ostracizing.  It may be enough to guide her to better social behavior, or it may be misery for her.  

 

Obviously you see which direction I lean.  But I also think a happy marriage is more important than a school choice, so I'd work on finding agreement with your DH.  

 

:iagree: My oldest daughter was this way, and she had been in school settings (preschools, other groups). It was very specific social skills teaching that helped her. Sitting in a classroom with 20 other kids and one teacher would not have been helpful.

 

As a teacher of prek with up to 20 students and an assistant, I'll say that expecting a child to learn those specific skills in a classroom setting may not be realistic. That isn't the first grade teacher's main focus (it is in prek, and it is still difficult to catch everything), and the child may pick up the wrong message. In fact, social skills was the reason I kept my oldest home. I saw she needed that training, and knew she wasn't going to get it in the classroom, even in kindergarten. 

 

I taught her specific things; ask before you walk up and hug someone; do you see how that person is drawing back? It means you are standing too close/don't want to be touched/don't like you in their face; etc. She was not going to get that kind of feedback/teaching in the classroom. I think it was this teaching, and dietary changes we made (to Feingold), that made the difference for her.

 

Edited by Renai
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They ARE doing social thinking instruction in the ps, but you have to have it in your IEP. My ds has an IEP, so it's in his IEP. I've gone to the workshops and gotten the training, right along with the ps teachers and administrators and SLPs and OTs. 

 

Social Thinking is a BIG DEAL right now, and they can do instruction for it in the ps if the dc qualifies. To qualify, they need a failing score (more than 1.5 standard deviations below the mean) on a pragmatics test like the Social Language Development Test.

 

Even kids who are not yet failing the SLDT or another pragmatics test can still benefit from explicit social thinking instruction. It's not going to occur in a typical classroom, but it can be done in pullouts or in non-mainstreamed placements. If a dc is having significant, MAJOR meltdowns and has them at school, it's not guaranteed she would be placed in a mainstream classroom. They might give her an aide and do pullouts, or they might move her to a placement that would provide that instruction. Often it's an SLP or OT doing it, and they'll do a combination of things. (5 Point Scale and ALERT for self-regulation, Zones of Regulation, check-ins, positive behavioral supports, etc.)

Edited by OhElizabeth
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I want to say... I think OhElizabeth's advice is spot on, IF her dd really has issues that would qualify her for an IEP. This was just starting to get better when I left teaching - IEP meetings I went to were starting to address it and social skills is definitely a buzzword now that people pay attention to. However, I just don't think there's anywhere near enough information in the OP to conclude that this kid has the skills deficits that would get her an IEP. I mean, a 6 yo who has some tantrums, is "bossy", and doesn't read social cues... is a 6 yo. Unless the behaviors are extreme, they really don't need to be pathologized. And if they are extreme, the OP should be aware that in many districts, between the waiting and the need for referrals and the testing and the meetings... it could easily be a year of public school before any of this approach kicked in. And that would be worth it if she's really struggling - absolutely. Especially if the OP is in a good district with good services. But it doesn't read to me like she's struggling, just really unsure of herself and trying to address her dh's concerns. And if she didn't qualify for an IEP... maybe she would luck out and get one of those brilliant first grade teachers who does address these sorts of skills for all kids... but I wouldn't place a bet on it. And, again, even without all of that, school might work out great for her - some kids thrive in schools. But at that point, you're just sending her to send her. There's no reason behind it.

 

Basically, if you think these are special needs level issues, yes, jump in with the interventions and the social skills groups and maybe even consider school - see what they would do for her. But if not - working on helping her grow up and get these skills at home is no worse than doing it in school and, IMHO, is better for some kids. 

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My daughter was homeschooled for K and we just started our homeschool 1st grade on Monday. My husband has always thought we are making a mistake by homeschooling because she lacks appropriate social skills and he thinks being in school would help. She is extremely outgoing but does not pick up other people's social cues well. She is very much a "leader" and can come across as too bossy as well. She also has major issues with emotional regulation and so meltdowns and temper tantrums are frequent.

 

The behavior you describe is typical for a girl on the autism spectrum. I would seek an evaluation from a medical professional.

 

Susan in TX

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I'd actually start by making an appointment with her pediatrician to discuss whether or not her behavior is within age appropriate boundaries, before I decided which course to pursue.

 

This.

 

Unless you and your husband spend time around 6 years on a regular basis, it's really hard to know what is normal. And since it's both easy for us to be too hard on our children, and easy for us to make excuses for their behaviors, depending on our mood...it never hurts to get another opinion from an adult who has both experience with your child and lots of other children in her peer group.

 

(My reaction, at first, was that she sounds like a lot of 6 year olds I meet, when they can get away with it...and then when they meet another 6 year old girl who is like them, they hate her and are like, geez, well, she is the WORST, because they can't boss her around. But then you said the issue is keeping you up at night...so I would trust your instincts. This is more than just 6 year olds sometimes being...difficult.)

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Like everybody else, I think it's hard to tell if her behavior is age-appropriate and your expectations are wrong, or if she's actually atypically difficult. Either way, I don't know if school is the answer for this particular problem. You should definitely seek an evaluation, which will give you more information so you can make the right choice

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She's at school 3 days per week?

 

That's pretty good for a 6 year old.

 

I would consider a sport or dance class, and keep trying until she finds things she likes.

 

However, I would also consider some behavioral therapy. It can be very fun and very low key. They have social skills classes which teach kids how to have a conversation, give and take, share and many other useful social skills. Sometimes the classes aren't very expensive but sometimes they are part of the overall therapy and very expensive. It's something you can start looking into.

 

If she has siblings at home you can also coach her on these skills yourself by choosing one skill at a time, and work on that for a month using a reward chart with stickers. Super Duper publications also has games, flash cards And such which are for social skills. The games practice conversational give-and-take.

 

Without siblings it might be necessary to consider an IEP so she can attend social skills training and classes. However at only 6, your husband may be correct and it may be just that she needs more practice.

 

However if she's not taking social cues, siper bossy, doesn't empathize, and derails playdtes it could possibly be some mild Aspergers or as you said ADHD issue. I personally did not have my son dx'd and was able to coach him myself using books I read, behavioral charts, Super Duper publications products...but he had a sibling so it was easy to work on it all the time.

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I would say she sounds like a 6 year old but it could certainly help you to talk it over with your pediatrician. I would worry she could pick up bad cues from a group setting, as most kids do, so I don't think that could be your fix. Obviously a different story if she is evaluated and found to have something where experts are telling you it could help. I think most kids need help with cues to different degrees since it's all new. My DS is headstrong, far too sure of himself and oblivious to other kids a lot of the time but it's better now at 7 than it was at 6. He's been with the same group of kids now for years at AWANA and he still only knows the name of a couple of them. Other kids say hi to him with his name and he has no idea who they are. I wonder if he'd get the social stuff more if he was in school or if he'd be just as oblivious but I do know he'd learn institutionalize stuff like standing in a line better but not the actual subjects which I think he's learning far better at home. I think you should trust your instincts. If you don't think school is right for her talk to your DH about it. Maybe you could find a compromise by adding more outside activities like Girl Scouts, bible study, or gymnastics, etc. without putting her in school. Maybe you could put her in something next summer like a summer school or day camp and see how she does to appease your DH without making it full-time school.

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Agreeing with the others, it is impossible to tell from your post if your child is within normal range for 6.  The incidents you describe could be perfectly within the normal range or these things could be happening very frequently and to an abnormal level of intensity.  There are a LOT of 6 year olds that do not easily pick up social cues or have good emotional regulation.  It takes a lot of us humans time to gain really good social skills.  Sometimes it takes targeted instruction and sometimes people pick up skills through just normal interaction but social skills don't usually happen overnight.  They take years to develop. 

 

I find that sometimes parents (especially men) tend to expect social skills/behavior performance to be closer to that of a 20 year old instead of the actual age a young child is. Your husband's expectations may be woefully unrealistic.  Hard to know from your post.

 

How often are either of you around other 6 year olds for extended periods of time?  Were either of you around lots of younger siblings growing up?  Siblings that you had to periodically be responsible for?  Does your husband seem to be good with young children?  Intuitive?  I ask just to see if you and your husband may simply not have enough experience with this age of child to accurately judge.  

 

Also, part of this may be tied to ADHD but there is no way to know without an evaluation and it is hard to tell from your post if one is even warranted.  FWIW, lots of kids with ADHD tend to pick up certain social cues more slowly.  Their brains just have too much going on to slow down long enough to notice social cues.  

 

Would your child benefit from being in a classroom?  Hard to know that as well.  Some elementary schools in our area now offer very little in the way of social interaction.  DD's old school shortened their recess period to 20 minutes.  Students are no longer allowed to sit where they want in the lunch room so you sit where you are assigned.  Talking is kept low and to a minimum.  Too much/loud talking means they lose recess time.  In class, even in 4k now, they are doing mostly seated clerical work, not group projects or play based learning. There is definitely no longer any targeted social skills instruction. Thankfully there are many schools that are not like this.  Have you actually looked into your local school to see what it is like?

 

Another thing that might need looking into is her health and possibly allergies if her behavior truly is out of the ordinary.  Others have posted about this so I won't go into additional detail except to say that at 6-7 I used to sometimes have abrupt, unexpected meltdowns.  It turned out I had a massive urinary tract infection coupled with hypoglycemia.  It took a year to get properly diagnosed.  Many things can caused alterations in behavior and young children frequently do not have the experience to know how to articulate changes or to even realize something is wrong.

 

What I suggest, FWIW:

 

1.  Start a journal.  Note your DDs behavior each day.  Create a checklist/chart so you can just check some things off but leave room for observation.  Note the length of time and maybe create a 1-10 point chart for level of intensity for temper tantrums.  Note triggers.  Also note when she has eaten and how balanced the meal.  Whether she has had extreme exercise.  Slept well.  How long.  

 

2.  Share your observations with your GP and ask for some feedback.

 

3.  Read up in more detail on ADHD.  If she does have ADHD and you want to put her in school you might be better off knowing before she starts school so you can work to get an IEP in place early.  This can be a long, slow, slog.  

 

4.  Look at getting her into activities such as mentioned above, like Girl Scouts, but also see about inviting a child or two over to your home periodically, or meeting others at the park for extended play dates.   I have found that the best social skills practice was through fairly unstructured extended consistent play with a parent there to help guide when the children run into trouble (but not micromanagement; let them try to work out some things on their own).  My kids developed friendships with kids that they saw often and had time to interact with for long periods of time and consistently (at least once a week when possible).  In fact, the extended consistent periods of play were paramount to them developing deeper friendships, not just surface interaction.  That was true for me, too.  While I met and made "friends" with the kids at school, it was the kids I played with daily or weekly after school that became my close buddies and helped me to hone my social skills and learn to cope with differences of opinion.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:   I'm sorry this is stressing you out so much.  Hang in there.  

Edited by OneStepAtATime
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Why not try some physical activity classes of some kind? She can have opportunities to practice social skills, listening, emotion control, etc. all the the context of moving. Sitting for long periods of time may not be the best solution, nor is there much social interaction when a group of children are all sitting listening to one teacher. 

 

Edited by wintermom
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Like others said, it's impossible to tell from a post, but my daughter has autism and it sounds a lot like what we went through. If your child does have a serious issue, going to school is not the cure, but it can be very helpful. The great thing about school, which many homeschooling parents of neurotypical children overlook when they diss "socialization," is that it scaffolds development of ongoing relationships by spending so much time around the same people. My child just doesn't have the skills to create relationships with other kids off of seeing them for a couple of hours at a once or twice a week activity; and while the activities themselves may be more holistic and developmentally appropriate than school desk work, in reality you're spending most of the time at the activity doing the activity, not striking up a chat, and certainly if you're a child with social skills struggles you're not going to magically create friendships in offhand moments that occur. If your child has similar problems to mine, running around to a bunch of activities to increase the number of such glancing encounters with a constantly shifting variety of children is not going to help her. And unlike PP's experience, IME you are about at the age where the expectation that children participate independently, and not have mom constantly at their side to intervene, starts to kick in. If you find you have to supervise in situations where most other children are participating independently, that is a definite sign of trouble. In any case you should definitely talk to your pediatrician for a reality check about how unusual her behavior is, and next steps in terms of evaluation.  

 

The downsides of the school approach have been noted by others. It is not an ideal environment, and for some special needs kids it can make things worse by overwhelming them. But then again, the structure which many homeschoolers decry can be useful for teaching self-regulation and that everything isn't always about me, and IME it is a much friendlier and more interactive environment than homeschooler "everybody has to sit in silence staring straight ahead while the teacher drones on and if you talk at all you're severely punished" rhetoric makes out. In any case I would talk to the doctor before starting school. Most children should be able to develop their social skills just fine in a homeschool-plus-activities lifestyle. If yours is having trouble that may be a sign of something and just plopping her in school is unlikely to do the trick.

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Regarding the pediatrician--you might want to see a developmental pediatrician if your regular hems and haws (or blows you off). If you are a "rarely get sick" family, then your ped might not really see you enough to form a strong impression. Some people who don't get sick much barely register on the radar at their pediatrician's office because they are not frequent flyers. It's taken us a lot longer to establish a "put it all out there" rapport with ours simply because my kids don't get sick, or if they do, we know what to do about it (not something that requires an antibiotic, etc.). He's on board now, but we kind of outsourced evals ourselves and then let him know what was up (but our kiddos were older, and we had a good basis for comparison, etc.).

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While it may be possible to learn some social skills in a school setting, let's not assume it's the only place to learn social skills.  And let's not make the assumption that throwing a struggling kid in a larger pool of kids at public school is the best learning strategy for social graces.  Usually when we want children to learn something specific, we expect some amount of explicit teaching, and signing up for public school isn't the way to get explicit instruction in social graces at recess-it will create an environment where an entire spectrum of behaviors will be out there with few adults, so your husband will have to accept that some of the negative behaviors will be there too. Who knows which ones your child will gravitate toward?

If you want explicit instruction for kids who struggle, this book does a great job. Different kid types are covered and so is reading body language.  There's a bossy kid chapter.https://www.amazon.com/Unwritten-Rules-Friendship-Strategies-Friends/dp/0316917303/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1502581613&sr=8-1&keywords=unwritten+rules+of+friendship

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