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Math planning help for 3rd grader with FASD/LD?


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#1 trailrunner

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 02:31 AM

Hello everyone! 

 
I am new to the WTM forum, but have been reading/lurking for several months now. I have already learned so much from those here on the Learning Challenges board, and wanted to thank you for all of the help you have given to me and so many others! Reading this forum has helped me to feel confident in our decision to homeschool the two of our children who don’t fit the public/private school mold. Thank you! 
 
Now, I could really use a little help finishing off my planning for this year, which starts in two weeks! My husband and I have very recently made final the decision to homeschool our 8-year-old son this year for 3rd grade. I have been homeschooling our younger son since last December, and feel pretty comfortable with most of our plans for both boys. However, I am still struggling with math for the 8-year-old, who has FASD. 
 
Ds’s FASD diagnosis (specifically, alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder/ARND) was confirmed in 2015, shortly after he joined our family through the foster care system. He is a bright kid (average IQ), with lots of strengths and some real athletic and creative talent. But, like most kids with FASD, he has always struggled with math. Last November, he was diagnosed with a Specific Learning Disorder in mathematics, in the areas of number sense, memorization of arithmetic facts, and accurate or fluent calculation. He is now going into 3rd grade and working at an early/mid 1st grade level in math. He has had no trouble with 1st/2nd grade geometry concepts, but all other areas of math have been a struggle. We have tests scores coming out of our ears, so if they would be helpful at all please let me know and I can post them. 
 
I have been researching various math programs, and the three that appeal to me are: 
 
1. The Dyscalculia Toolkit, by Ronit Bird. I managed to get my hands on a copy of this, and am really impressed with what I see! It seems to start out at the perfect level, and I think ds will really enjoy and engage with the games and activities. 
 
2. Dynamo Maths. I don’t love that every lesson includes an online component. Otherwise, this looks like it will be a good fit and reasonably easy to implement. 
 
3. CLE Math. My only concern with this program is the length of the lessons. Ds works very slowly in math (because of damage to areas of the brain typically used for math, kids with FASD recruit alternate, less efficient areas). I can’t imagine that he’ll be able to get through a full lesson every day, and it’s hard to tell from the samples whether problems, sections, or lessons can easily be skipped. 
 
My questions:

 

- Do these programs sound like they will be a good fit for us? I would love to hear experiences/thoughts/advice about any of these programs!

 

- Are there any other math programs that you would recommend for us? Am I completely off base with these programs? Should I be looking at programs designed for children who are generally lower functioning (Semple Math, TouchMath, etc.)?

 

- If I do decide to go with these three programs, should we begin all three concurrently? If not, which program or combination would you recommend we start with? 

 

- Roughly how much time each day should we be spending on math? How many sessions? How intense should those sessions be? Knowing our personalities, we are much more likely to go overboard than to slack off. Ds knows that he is “behind” in math and is motivated to work extra hard in this area.

 
One other area of concern: Ds has not yet had any success learning to tell or understand time. He really doesn’t seem to have any sense of time beyond now vs. later and today vs. not today. He used to mix up last week/yesterday, yesterday/tomorrow, tomorrow/next week, etc., but I think he got tired of being corrected and has learned to avoid referencing time at all. He knows the “months of the year” and “days of the week” songs, but can not tell you which day comes before Friday or which month comes after September. 
 
- Is there a program that specifically targets telling time and other temporal concepts? Or any resources we could use to work on these concepts in everyday life? 
 
Any general thoughts/comments/advice about our math plans (or anything at all!) are very much appreciated!
 
Thank you so much!
 
Caroline


#2 Heathermomster

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 07:51 AM

Welcome to the forum!

David Sousa wrote a book called How the Brain Learns Mathematics. It does not specifically discuss FASD but describes math learning well. I suggest you read that book for your own benefit.

Lose the mindset of catching up. Seriously. Catching up is not realistic and places unnecessary pressure on your student.

We used 1/2" graph paper, dry erase boards, and manipulatives. I'm a fan of Singapore style math and manipulatives. After using Ronit Bird materials, I began applying her method across whatever curriculum we happened to be using. DS sang, used math mnemonics, games, flash cards...whatever worked to grasp and recall the procedure. Developmental Math or MUS might be programs to consider. Soroban abacus might be useful if he is highly visual.

Has he been evaluated by an OT/ped PT? My child does not have FASD. He used a ped PT for reflexes, balance, and bilateral coordination work. Physical exercise strengthens the connections between the brain.

For telling time, do not allow this to become an issue. Let him select a digital/analog combination watch and be done with it. DS did not understand time until about 7-8th grade. If directionality is an issue, make a habit of marking the top left corner of every sheet of paper or surface with a heart or star. I went to a teacher supply store and purchased/laminated a huge calendar, days of the week, and months of the year charts. They hang on our home office wall, and my kids are free to reference them.

Some parents print up and laminate math facts cards for their children. Even when he knew his times facts, DS carried a multiplication chart.

In 5th grade, my DS could only handle about 20 minutes of math and one concept per lesson.

https://www.amazon.c...alog watch kids
http://www.mathplace...velopmental.asp
http://customgraph.c...iart.php?art=27
Eta: Boho Birds Calendar Set that hangs in our office --https://www.carsonde...oard-Set-110234 Numbers and DOW use velcro and swap out easy.
Good luck!

Edited by Heathermomster, 07 August 2017 - 03:10 PM.

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#3 OneStepAtATime

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 08:16 AM

Welcome!  

 

My daughter is similar to your son in math struggles some ways, especially when we first started this journey, so I will respond and hope some of this is helpful.

 

First, I agree with Heathermomster, walk away, no run away from the "catch up" mentality.  Don't even go there.  Following that mentality nearly destroyed my daughter emotionally and it certainly didn't get her further down the road in math.  In fact, she developed PTSD like symptoms.  It took a long time to get past her math anxiety and paranoia.  

 

Your goal is for your child to learn the math he needs to succeed in life.  Focus on that goal.  Don't worry about what anyone else is doing. Teach the child in front of you.  If he is ready to learn that 1 item plus 1 item means adding two items together to make 2, then that is where you start.  You move on when he is ready to move on.  You slow down or even go backwards and review again if that is what he needs to do.  This is a marathon, not a sprint.  You are in this for the long haul.  He may leap ahead in some areas and drag painfully behind in others.  Accept it and keep going at whatever pace and level he can successfully navigate.  And know you are doing what is best for your child.  Don't worry about anyone else's child or what the PS is doing.

 

Agree with the time thing, too.  My daughter struggled for years with telling time.  She also struggled for years to even feel the passage of time.  Even once she could read a clock she didn't really conceive of what it was all about for a very long time because she had no internal sense of time.  And fractions/decimals/percents/measurement of any kind were a horrible struggle for her.  They just didn't compute no matter how hands on I made the lessons.  In 8th grade she was still struggling to measure to the quarter inch with a ruler or add fractions together with like denominators or use a measuring cup accurately.  They just didn't compute.  These things STILL don't come super easily to her but she is finally in a much better place with fractions and even enjoys our lessons now.  Don't let the time thing bog your child down.  Remember, marathon not a sprint.  Give your son whatever supports he needs while his brain matures and these things slowly gel.  Heathermomster has some good suggestions.  

 

And yes to the math chart.  Let him work on math facts separately.  Let him use a math chart once he gets through RB material in Toolkit.  Keep working on those math facts as a separate thing to the lessons.

 

 

Now for curriculum/lessons:

 

1.  The Ronit Bird books and e-books are absolutely where I would start.  Start with Toolkit and maybe roll in the ebooks eventually.  They are brilliantly done.  I wouldn't even begin with a standard curriculum until you have started way back at very, very, very basic math subitization skills with Ronit Bird.  

 

2.  If you want something like RB but with more handholding and easier to schedule then Dynamo Math may be your best bet or you could run DM alongside RB, using RB as reinforcement for DM and vice-a-versa.  Just pair up what you are doing in one with what you are doing in the other.  Honestly, I really liked DM alongside RB because I liked the extra handholding and flow to our day.  I felt they complimented each other brilliantly and provided me with a good way to schedule and pace our math.  

 

The reason for the DM on-line component is that they are hitting the student with several different modalities and approaches.  The on-line part is just one component.  Honestly, the kids really did well doing a lesson with me, then the on-line lesson, then the worksheet and review.  It helped solidify things that had not been clicking before.  Lessons on-line are pretty short, too.  They are not the main instruction component.  That is done with the teacher in a very hands on approach.  The on-line lesson is for reinforcement.  Honestly, doing it with the various approaches to the same material was really helpful here.  But if you are very opposed to on-line work of any kind then just stick with RB.

 

3.  CLE has worked very well here BUT...not until after we had run through RB AND Dynamo Math.  The kids just were not ready for a regular curriculum before that point and DD was already heading into 6th grade when we started homeschooling.  The lovely people here on the LC board convinced me to start her completely over with basic math skills using RB and other resources and then I found Dynamo Math just as it was being tested on the market.  Using both was so helpful.  We switched to CLE later on (again, at the recommendation of people on the LC board) and it was also a huge help.  We weren't ready for over year, though.

 

4.  If at some point in the future you decide to move to a standard curriculum and you want to explore CLE further, you might look at buying just the first 3-4 modules of a level to see if it is a good fit.  Definitely give the placement test first.  There are a zillion ways to customize CLE for individual needs so just post on the LC or Gen Ed board or even the K-8 board and people can help you modify it.  I modified a lot.  One thing that I loved about CLE for kids that struggle with math facts but like things like geometry is that CLE has a built in targeted short review of math facts daily but it is SEPARATE from the lessons.  During lessons students can use a math chart so they are not using up all of their brain power trying to remember math facts.  They can focus on learning the concepts and algorithms.  And CLE introduces geometry early and keeps moving into it in more depth.  DD loves geometry so this worked well.

 

5.  If you feel something mastery based is better for your son then Math U See or Math in Focus might work better.  They did not work as well for my kids as stand alone systems but I was able to incorporate parts into our day anyway.  I just couldn't use either as a spine.  Both of my kids needed a spiral approach that could also be used to mastery.  They needed more variety, needed a lot tighter review, etc.  But for many kids Math U See or Math in Focus works better.  Depends on the child and the parent.  You can cross that bridge once your son's basic math skills are more solid.

 

Hugs and good luck.  You are not alone.  Reach out whenever you need.  Someone will respond.


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#4 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:16 AM

I would start with the Ronit Bird ebooks, not the printed. The printed are awesome, but the ebooks include videos. If you go through her Dots, C-Rods, and Multi- books, they're the rough equivalent of Toolkit.

 

Do you have language test scores? Can't do math without language, unfortunately, so it would just be something to check, to see if there's anything that maybe didn't flag him for an IEP goal but is still maybe something you could work on that would help.

 

Do you find that he has sequencing issues overall, or only with time and months? Like can he say the steps of a task or retell a short narrative or tell you the three things he did today?

 

I would encourage you to play games together. RB includes games in every lesson in the ebooks. So you explore a concept, play a game. Not only can you do the RB games, but also you can do games from Family Pastimes or things that Timberdoodle sells or whatever. Games weave in math, social, bonding, chill breaks... They're good on SO many levels, and as a new(er) homeschooler maybe you need a reminder that it's really OK to play games and call it school. :)

 

Clumsy Thief is awesome for money. My ds is the age of yours, also with SLD math, and he'll still play kitchen, play store. I don't know if FASD brings developmental delays. The dc I know with it also later got diagnosed ASD, so it kind of skews my impression. 

 

With my ds, the other challenge is not just whether he can do the math (which Ronit Bird is great for), but whether it will generalize. That means will he know that 5+2 is 5+2 with a new manipulative or in a new setting, kwim? So, alas, what that means is things just plain take longer. Like this could be way harder than even a regular SLD. Cuz you ain't never had fun till you've taught it for a week in one setting, finally gotten it clicking, and then handed him a new manip and got a blank.

 

So what that means here is I try to stay on one concept a long time and work it across areas. Like if we're working on what the nearest 10 is, then we're going to do that in time, in money, in the car while looking at the clock, in the kitchen while measuring, at church with snacks, all over, lots of ways, lots of places.

 

My ds really enjoys the RB things. They're simple, with very small steps that he can get. I would encourage you to back all the way up and let him be a rock star. if you milk it, by the time you finish Dots he'll know all his addition facts. Then you can teach her Turnovers game if you want and teach subtraction and negative numbers that way. 

 

We like the Think Mats games by Carson Dellosa. They're too hard for your ds right now, but get through Dots and he'll be ready. Take that back, they have a K5 level. Score! :D

 

I have a really cute clock that looks like a man, with arms and legs, and it talks. We like playing with that. I got it used at a sale from someone who also had a ds with SLD math. That thing was really special to the boy, beloved. You can get a lot of mileage out of purchases like that if they really click with him developmentally.

 

I keep measuring tapes around. You can get them inexpensively at Joanns, like for $1. What that lets me do is have a concept we're working on (nearest 10, whatever) but then practice it lots of ways, 3-4 different ways. 

 

You're asking how long to work. We do short sessions to tolerance. We've increased his tolerance. You might want to break it into chunks of no more than 10 minutes and alternate the activity and a calming break. That way you can get in say 30 minutes of math, but it's not tedious and doesn't FEEL like 30 minutes of drudgery. Like when I do that, it's gonna be maybe 10 minutes of Ronit Bird, break, 10 minutes of either a different manipulative or some worksheets, break, 10 minutes of a game. So we got in 30 minutes, but it wasn't heavy, kwim? 

 

My ds will do anything, as long as we keep it fun. Edible is a bonus. Fun is essential. I just got him the math subtraction locks from Lakeshore Learning. They have the whole store and website 20% off right now. Subtraction Learning Locks at Lakeshore Learning  They have them for addition, phonics, all sorts of stuff! I'm not saying they'll teach him subtraction. For my ds, it's practice. But the point is he can do those with a worker, he prefers them, and they build lots of goodwill about math, lots of good vibes with I like math, this is fun, we can engage with this. I try to keep it on the fun, easy side and just keep taking teeny, tiny steps. The steps add up. Ronit Bird is BRILLIANT. If you keep taking small steps, you WILL get there.

 

I use lots of worksheets from Teacher Created, Carson Dellosa, etc. I especially like things that say daily review or warm-up, because then tend to be SHORT. So he might get like one word problem and one graph to read, and a lot of times they can even answer by circling the letter for the answer. So I get compliance, some momentum, a way to work on the language, but it's not expensive and not overwhelming. I pick really carefully, so the worksheets are within reach, not really at instructional level. Like back up to rock star level and build momentum.

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Edited by OhElizabeth, 07 August 2017 - 10:40 AM.

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#5 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:34 AM

Daily Warm-Ups: Math, Grade 1

 

Daily Warm-Ups: Problem Solving Math Grade 1

 

I can't remember if I started my ds at gr 1 or 2 last year, but it really might have been grade 1. In fact, I think it was. That was age 7/8, gifted IQ, math SLD plus ASD. Where he was with behavior and language, that was rocket science for him and a stretch and challenging! Look how small the amounts are. For him, that was doable. And if you see he needs a little instruction before the page, it's ok to say hey and tell him how to do it before you show it to him, kwim? Like it's not a test. 

 

Simple Graph Art  TCR sells really fun math graph art books! This is not the particular one we did, but it's one that showed up when I narrowed their field to K5 level math. Like I really wouldn't be picky about levels. When you print out the pages, he won't know, kwim? The goal is to get some momentum, get some habits of how to behave, where he goes ok I know that I can work 10 minutes on something and it will be fine. He might need skills like working independently at a table while you work with your other dc or asking for help. So if you get the material simple enough, he'll be able to do it independently and still have it be worthwhile. This is an age where in school they would want him doing some independent work. It's something our team talks about for my ds. There are some cut and paste books that could work for that, also file folder games. Buy them preprinted, kwim? I always aspire and don't get it done. Better just to buy, lol.

 

After my ds maxed out everything at the level he was at at TCR, I went over to Carson Dellosa. They have marvelous stuff too! I really like their Spotlight on Reading series. They have books for cause/effect, compare/contrast, summarizing, etc., all grade leveled. I started my ds at the bottom and we're working up. They have a series for math as well. I have my workers use it. It has component books. 

 

My ds gets overwhelmed with a whole workbook. We literally only hand him one page at a time.

 

Using the Standards: Measurement Workbook Grade 1 / Ages 6–7 $12.99 eBook  Using the Standards is the series for math that has the components, all by grade level. So if we do 4 worksheets, then it will be one from each of the workbooks in the series, kwim? 

 

When I do that, I put 2 worksheets in a file folder, meaning that would take two file folders. So then in the stack he'll see two file folders and preferred (break, reward, fun) activities between the file folders. So he sees the plan, knows the plan, and knows that even if they're not his super fab favorite things that he would have chosen, they're still fine and going to end. And really, he's fine with them. I'll also put brain teaser pages in those folders. My ds LOVES brain teasers. Maybe your ds has something he likes? Maybe he likes word searches? My ds didn't at first, but now he does. Like make it your own. I'm just explaining how we get structure, make it predictable, lower stress. We also use a whiteboard with the written plan. But definitely, I'm not handing him a pile of printed worksheets or a workbook. My ds would totally melt and be under the table, game over. I'd never get him to work with me again. If your ds is like that, you might have to bend farther and have things you can break up like that. 

 

These are the math thinking mats. I haven't used the K5 level, but that's where you should probably start. I think I started with the gr 1, would have to check. I LOVE these. Way fun, colorful, games, can't lose. A great value for the money. I cut mine up and slide into a page protector that I can pop in a notebook. So easy to hand to my ABA workers. LOVE, highly highly recommend. Use your judgment if you think your ds would think them immature, too young, whatever. For my ds, these are the types of materials and methodologies he needs. Sometimes we play a game their way and then play it our own way. Works for us.

Math Thinking Mats - Grade K (035500) Details - Rainbow Resource Center, Inc.

 


Edited by OhElizabeth, 07 August 2017 - 10:38 AM.

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#6 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:43 AM

Gotta scat, but I didn't really mean to imply math should be independent work. It won't be. Maybe file folder games, the Addition Machines from Lakeshore Learning, Frogtastic, dot to dots, that kind of thing. Can he do a 50 dot to dot or does he need to start lower? We never assign anything to my ds for independent work that he has not done with a worker to know he can do it independently. Independent does not mean asking for help. If he's asking for help, he's still at an instructional level in it. 

 

You could look for paint by number for independent work. Pajaggle. 


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#7 Pen

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 11:03 AM

Ronit Bird likely to help. Also consider Math U See (I believe developed by someone to help their own lower functioning child) through Stewardship level.  I'm not familiar with your 2 other choices to comment on them.  Focus a lot on life skills math.

 

I suggest 2 sessions per day, 1/2 hour each.  Focus on mastery, not "catching up." But that he is motivated is great!

 

Try to use games to help with the days of week, months etc. issue.   Also games that encourage number sense development.

 

Can he easily put numbers in order--like which whole number is one more than and which one less than 7, say, if you ask him?


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#8 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 12:31 PM

I have a set of the months of the year titles that go with a bulletin board calendar set. They're laminated. Every so often, like once a month, I just throw them out on the floor and have him put them all in order. Some of that stuff is a work in progress. You can also make a morning work notebook and put them as labels with velcro.

 

Morning Work Binders - Special Education Station There's a picture of what I'm talking about. I'm wanting to make some to work on some things with my ds. He really struggles with phone numbers, so he can't say his phone number if he gets lost some place. He FINALLY learned his aunt's phone number, but that doesn't help us, lol. Anyways, they're not hard to do. You can buy velcro dots at walmart, and they have packs of page protectors right now on the cheap.  Ooo, just realized I need pockets!

 

A morning work binder like that would be AWESOME for independent work. :)

 

The dot to dots are a way to work on numbers in order. If he can't do them to 50, then look for shorter ones. Natures Workshop Plus or Rainbow will sell some charming ones that have lower counts. They're half-page size and have them for fish and other pleasant, age-appopriate themes. He could also do alphabet dot to dots. They can work for independent work if he has a chart to refer to with the numbers or letters in order.

 

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Edited by OhElizabeth, 07 August 2017 - 12:31 PM.

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#9 trailrunner

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:02 PM

Thank you all for the welcome and quick, thoughtful replies! I managed to mess up my multi-quote, so I'll figure out that feature later.: ) 

 

Heathermomster - 

Thank you for the book recommendation! I've done a lot of reading on FASD and LDs, and this book looks like the bridge between what I know and what I need to know. 

 

I'm using Singapore Math with my younger son, and we love it, so I'm glad to see that you're able to incorporate some of the Singapore style. Thanks for mentioning how you use Ronit Bird's methods and the "whatever works" strategy - I think I'm a little hung up on finding the perfect "program" right now and need to be more open to figuring some of this out as I go and learning what works best for Ds. 

 

I'll have to pick up a big, colorful calendar and some other reference posters. I'd already decided that I couldn't put myself through daily "calendar time" (and Ds managed to sit through three years of calendar time in public school without learning which days of the week are weekends), so having a calendar available for him will be our solution. 

 

Heathermomster and OneStepAtATime -

We are definitely not expecting any magical "catching up" to happen here.  :tongue_smilie: I actually felt awkward writing my original post, because I wanted to make it clear how much support Ds needs in math, but my husband and I always consider him to be doing wonderfully in school, even in math. His work ethic and attitude make it impossible to think that he's doing "badly" or to think that he could somehow be doing better. I do think we'll see a little jump in progress with the shift from small-group to one-on-one teaching and with the change in program, but beyond that I don't have any expectations. None of the professionals we've seen seem to have any idea (or want to make any predictions) about Ds's potential in math. I'm pretty curious myself, to be honest. 

 

When it comes to time, I'm not worried about his ability to tell time on an analog clock, but just to understand and manage time in general. He's 8 now, and it's just beginning to become noticeable to others. He on the way home from summer camp one day because a counsellor had teased him for not understanding what "quarter to" meant. When he and his friends go bike riding, I have to ask his best friend to make sure they come home on time. This fall, Ds will move up a level in ice hockey, and will be expected to know when it's time to go off the ice (by glancing up at the clock, while playing the game). I'm not sure that I feel right about just letting this go, but I really have no idea how much can be done to help in this area. Are there tools and supports that you help your kids learn to use, or do you just continue to manage your child's time for them into the teen years? 

 

OneStepAtATime - 

Thank you so much for your encouragement, and for sharing about your daughter's experience. And you don't have to worry, I can guarantee I will be asking plenty of questions in the future.  :001_smile:

 

Thanks, also, for your description of how Dynamo Math works, how the components work together, and how it can be paired with the Ronit Bird materials! It does sound like it'll give me the structure I'm looking for, and I think I'm sold. I've been trying to avoid online programs (we are screen-free until age 4/5, and try to keep it to 1-2 hours/week after that), but this seems like it will be well worth it. 

 

I think we'll hold off on CLE for now, or I might pick up one or two units to have some simple fact practice on hand.  

 

Pen - 

Thank you! Yes, if you asked him, "what is one more/less than 7?" he would know almost automatically. With numbers higher than 12 or 13, he would take his time and figure it out. But, he would likely be stumped by something like, "what is one less than 70?" 

 

OhElizabeth - 

Thank you so much for all the recommendations! I'll have to take some time tonight to go through each of them. 

 

A few questions I have about the ebooks - I'm not sure I quite understand how these are used. Are the videos intended for the child and parent to watch together? Or just the parent? Is there anything besides the videos that are unique to the ebooks? We don't have an iPad, and have access to a copy of The Dyscalculia Toolkit, so I am inclined to use that. But, if there is something I would be missing without the ebooks I need to know lol. 

 

Ds doesn't have any real difficulty with language - his language scores are average and mostly reflect his wonky memory. And his memory is wonky in that he is great (above average) at remembering things that have meaning to him (faces, names, pictures), but very low in remember things that don't mean much to him (random words, symbols, and unfortunately numbers...). 

 

Sequencing used to be a major issue, but it's gotten much better within the last couple years. At 6, he would come to me crying about how his brother had pushed him. Brother would explain that he'd pushed Ds because Ds had jumped on him. I'd ask Ds why he'd jumped on his brother and he'd say, "Because he pushed me off!" Now, he has no trouble retelling a simple narrative, giving basic instructions, or putting pictures/steps/events in order. Answering questions about the sequence, especially if he has to go backward, is still tough unless it's very simple or he has the pictures/steps in front of him. 

 

Oh, and Ds is the king of dot-to-dots. He can do the ones that go up by 2s, 5s, and 10s, even though he skip counts by rote and has no idea what it means. He's been in a mainstream classroom in public school for three years, so he can work independently, I'm just not sure how much he gets out of it. 

 

Thanks again!

Caroline


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#10 Heathermomster

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:17 PM

Timers...DS uses timers and alarms with his watch and phone to manage himself. We have spent a lifetime adapting for EF issues. When my son goes out in the evening, he sets his phone and leaves once the alarm reminds him to head home.

Edited by Heathermomster, 07 August 2017 - 04:18 PM.

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#11 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:21 PM

For time, we do a lot of "abouts" talks. We have both analog and digital clocks around (in the car, etc.), so I'll just say hey, about what time is it? It's actually a really tricky, really useful concept! Can your ds find pages in a book? I had NO CLUE my ds couldn't do this. So in church they would say turn to 339, and he couldn't find it! RB has an activity in C-Rods where you tell how much to get to the nearest 10 or nearest hundred. It's preparation for rounding, estimating, subtracting, all sorts of things. So we're doing the same thing, just with time. It's EXACTLY 4:27, but how many minutes till the nearest half hour? 

 

I don't know, my ds took to that pretty readily, and it seemed really useful. It's the same with money, where we want them to be cognizant of how close a number is to a bill ($1, 5, 10, 20), so they know how to pay with cash. So you can do ABOUT games there, where you play store and figure out ABOUT how much it is and what will be the appropriate bill to use to pay. To make it more realistic, some teachers will have them round everything to account for tax. Or just tell them the total with tax.  We do it with measuring too, about how many feet, etc.

 

To build a sense of time, you have several options. You can actually sit there with a timer and mark passage of time. (How long is 30 seconds, how long is a minute, how long is 5 minutes, etc.) You can also use 360 Thinking to build his understanding of elapsed time. We keep a clock in ds' office, so we can just ask about what time it is, about how long till Paw Patrol starts, etc. 


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#12 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:23 PM

Sorry about the quarter till thing. That must have been embarrassing! Sometimes language segregates in the mind, so they don't realize the quarter in dollars, quarter of a pie, quarter of an hour, etc. are similar. So what you can do there is get manipulatives and start to connect it for him. You can do *abouts* to the nearest quarter hour also! Remember, 15,30,45, and 60 are all quarters, so you could play games where you take turns with the cute clock, turning it and saying what the nearest quarter hour is. You're hitting subtraction and time and language and...


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#13 Lecka

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:25 PM

If he has been getting extra help in math in school, that might tell you something. My son has done some Touch Math and some Saxon. At his previous school, they sometimes used Touch Math with some kids and Saxon with some kids.

If you were there -- it would tell a lot of they thought one of these was a good choice.

If they were supplementing or if they were mainly using it, too.

Not that you would only go by that, but if someone at school has been working with him and you think he was in a quality program -- probably go more intense than what he was in at school.

If you don't think they did good with him then you don't have any helpful information, unfortunately.

Whatever else you choose, you can have a calendar time if he still needs to work on calendar.
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#14 Lecka

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 05:43 PM

If he has been getting extra help in math in school, that might tell you something. My son has done some Touch Math and some Saxon. At his previous school, they sometimes used Touch Math with some kids and Saxon with some kids.

If you were there -- it would tell a lot of they thought one of these was a good choice.

If they were supplementing or if they were mainly using it, too.

Not that you would only go by that, but if someone at school has been working with him and you think he was in a quality program -- probably go more intense than what he was in at school.

If you don't think they did good with him then you don't have any helpful information, unfortunately.

Whatever else you choose, you can have a calendar time if he still needs to work on calendar.

My son does have number sense as far as being able to associate numbers with quantities.

I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to work a lot on time if you are still working on number sense.

To share about my son: he was late in developing number sense.

Then he had to learn through ten. He got good through ten.

Then he had to learn through twenty. Including ordering the numbers and greater than and less than.

But then he had to learn through 100! We could have gone through 50 but he was doing fairly well.

He started addition and subtraction sentences in there.

Anyway -- we are set up to look at milestones instead of going through a curriculum. A curriculum is good too, but sometimes it is better or worse to keep going or to wait, and I think having milestones helps with that.

The milestones we look at mainly come from an autism program so wouldn't be appropriate, but I think it can be helpful to have your math-related goals and work to learn them, and maybe not so much go through a curriculum only. Kids don't always fit any curriculum.
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#15 Pen

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 06:30 PM

My ds got very good at numbers and number sense type things with games like Speed and guessing games, identifying number of objects in a group up till about 10 or so. Guesstimating for larger groups, like beans in a jar.

 

We had a while where each day he'd answer some question about calendar type sense.  (Like which are the "summer months"?   What day comes before Monday? etc.) Or trying to work these into I Spy or 21 Question sorts of games.

 

 

For things like what is one less than 70, possibly you can just turn that into questions while driving, if you can keep it fun and upbeat, not a stress.  And he can quiz you too.  

 

Like he can say, "I am thinking of a number try to guess it."  And you can then say, "okay, is it over 1000?" seeing if you can narrow down to the correct one in fewer than an allotted number of guesses with yes or no answers.   This was a game we used to play sometimes.  

 

Also you can try simplified versions of trying to figure out things like how many ____ there are in a given area, working together.  Like, guess at how many dogs there are in your city by thinking of the population as a whole if you pass a sign, and then how many dogs per person, etc.


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#16 trailrunner

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 07:24 PM

Timers...DS uses timers and alarms with his watch and phone to manage himself. We have spent a lifetime adapting for EF issues. When my son goes out in the evening, he sets his phone and leaves once the alarm reminds him to head home.

 

Okay, thanks! We are definitely not ready for cell phones, and even watches don't last long around here yet. I'll have get thinking about some of this stuff soon!

 

For time, we do a lot of "abouts" talks. We have both analog and digital clocks around (in the car, etc.), so I'll just say hey, about what time is it? It's actually a really tricky, really useful concept! Can your ds find pages in a book? I had NO CLUE my ds couldn't do this. So in church they would say turn to 339, and he couldn't find it! RB has an activity in C-Rods where you tell how much to get to the nearest 10 or nearest hundred. It's preparation for rounding, estimating, subtracting, all sorts of things. So we're doing the same thing, just with time. It's EXACTLY 4:27, but how many minutes till the nearest half hour? 

 

I don't know, my ds took to that pretty readily, and it seemed really useful. It's the same with money, where we want them to be cognizant of how close a number is to a bill ($1, 5, 10, 20), so they know how to pay with cash. So you can do ABOUT games there, where you play store and figure out ABOUT how much it is and what will be the appropriate bill to use to pay. To make it more realistic, some teachers will have them round everything to account for tax. Or just tell them the total with tax.  We do it with measuring too, about how many feet, etc.

 

To build a sense of time, you have several options. You can actually sit there with a timer and mark passage of time. (How long is 30 seconds, how long is a minute, how long is 5 minutes, etc.) You can also use 360 Thinking to build his understanding of elapsed time. We keep a clock in ds' office, so we can just ask about what time it is, about how long till Paw Patrol starts, etc. 

 

Oh my gosh, Ds was a late bloomer when it came to finding pages in a book! It was almost the end of first grade before we realized that the little girls in his class had been opening his books to the right page for him.  :wub:  He'd never had to do it at home, but was able to learn it pretty quickly when my husband sat down and explained that the pages go in order...

 

Thanks for these ideas! My husband just read this thread and told me that he was already planning to teach Ds what it feels like to skate as hard as you can for 60 seconds. We'll have to play around with these a bit!

 

If he has been getting extra help in math in school, that might tell you something. My son has done some Touch Math and some Saxon. At his previous school, they sometimes used Touch Math with some kids and Saxon with some kids.

If you were there -- it would tell a lot of they thought one of these was a good choice.

If they were supplementing or if they were mainly using it, too.

Not that you would only go by that, but if someone at school has been working with him and you think he was in a quality program -- probably go more intense than what he was in at school.

If you don't think they did good with him then you don't have any helpful information, unfortunately.

Whatever else you choose, you can have a calendar time if he still needs to work on calendar.

My son does have number sense as far as being able to associate numbers with quantities.

I don't know if it makes a lot of sense to work a lot on time if you are still working on number sense.

To share about my son: he was late in developing number sense.

Then he had to learn through ten. He got good through ten.

Then he had to learn through twenty. Including ordering the numbers and greater than and less than.

But then he had to learn through 100! We could have gone through 50 but he was doing fairly well.

He started addition and subtraction sentences in there.

Anyway -- we are set up to look at milestones instead of going through a curriculum. A curriculum is good too, but sometimes it is better or worse to keep going or to wait, and I think having milestones helps with that.

The milestones we look at mainly come from an autism program so wouldn't be appropriate, but I think it can be helpful to have your math-related goals and work to learn them, and maybe not so much go through a curriculum only. Kids don't always fit any curriculum.

 

Unfortunately, getting Ds the level of support he needs in math has been a struggle. Our school district takes the "inclusion" philosophy very literally, so all of his extra help was given by a "learning support teacher" in this regular classroom (or, sitting at a table in the hallway when his classroom was too loud). Depending on the topic his class was covering, Ds either participated with the class and completed the regular assignments with support, participated with the class and completed modified assignments, or worked in a small group doing remedial work. Ensuring that Ds gets a decent education in math is on our list of reasons for homeschooling this year (as is my lack of interest in battling with school administrators). 

 

I really like your idea of meeting goals/milestones rather than using a curriculum to gauge progress. And I think you're right that we might not see much progress with understanding time until his number sense bumps up a bit. 

 

My ds got very good at numbers and number sense type things with games like Speed and guessing games, identifying number of objects in a group up till about 10 or so. Guesstimating for larger groups, like beans in a jar.

 

We had a while where each day he'd answer some question about calendar type sense.  (Like which are the "summer months"?   What day comes before Monday? etc.) Or trying to work these into I Spy or 21 Question sorts of games.

 

 

For things like what is one less than 70, possibly you can just turn that into questions while driving, if you can keep it fun and upbeat, not a stress.  And he can quiz you too.  

 

Like he can say, "I am thinking of a number try to guess it."  And you can then say, "okay, is it over 1000?" seeing if you can narrow down to the correct one in fewer than an allotted number of guesses with yes or no answers.   This was a game we used to play sometimes.  

 

Also you can try simplified versions of trying to figure out things like how many ____ there are in a given area, working together.  Like, guess at how many dogs there are in your city by thinking of the population as a whole if you pass a sign, and then how many dogs per person, etc.

 

Oh, I love these ideas! Our family is the type that never stops talking, asking questions, singing, playing games, quizzing each other, etc., in the car and on our walks, I just never think to play around with math like this unless one of my kids has been assigned to memorize the multiplication tables. I can definitely work these ideas in! 

 

Thank you!
 

Caroline


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#17 OhElizabeth

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 09:19 PM

Kids Preschool DR Talking Quiz Time Educational Learning Clock Teaching TOY | eBay  I'm not saying you should pay $25 for it, but this is the clock we have. :)

 

Geodob has explained it and I speak as a fool. It's something about the math concepts being on one side of the brain and the math number sense and math language on the other. So then things aren't *connecting*. 

 

So that's why they have issues with both the language of the math and the math. We're literally giving the math language meaning and connecting it to concepts in the brain. And that's why you can even have kids who are math gifted with a math disability. They can be gifted conceptually and struggle with the number sense. 

 

Just so you know, Ronit Bird is not trying to be a full curriculum or to meet state standards of some kind. She's an educator in the UK, and she's making tutoring materials, things for intervention. So they're the things you WISH the school had been doing with him in pullout sessions. That's why I like to add those worksheets, because it gives us the OTHER stuff we think ought to happen for a more full experience. Like you'd like him to do some word problems, carry it over to time, money, graphing, etc. 

 


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#18 trailrunner

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 12:29 AM

Kids Preschool DR Talking Quiz Time Educational Learning Clock Teaching TOY | eBay  I'm not saying you should pay $25 for it, but this is the clock we have. :)

 

Geodob has explained it and I speak as a fool. It's something about the math concepts being on one side of the brain and the math number sense and math language on the other. So then things aren't *connecting*. 

 

So that's why they have issues with both the language of the math and the math. We're literally giving the math language meaning and connecting it to concepts in the brain. And that's why you can even have kids who are math gifted with a math disability. They can be gifted conceptually and struggle with the number sense. 

 

Just so you know, Ronit Bird is not trying to be a full curriculum or to meet state standards of some kind. She's an educator in the UK, and she's making tutoring materials, things for intervention. So they're the things you WISH the school had been doing with him in pullout sessions. That's why I like to add those worksheets, because it gives us the OTHER stuff we think ought to happen for a more full experience. Like you'd like him to do some word problems, carry it over to time, money, graphing, etc. 

Thanks so much for all of your recommendations, OhElizabeth! I've just spent an hour organizing my bookmarks and putting together an Excel file so that I don't lose track of any of the great resources I learn about here on the forum! 

 

I realize that neither Dynamo Maths or Ronit Bird's materials cover all of the topics that a typical/full curriculum does, but I think they're the best place for us to start. I'll add in some review of the K/1st grade topics he knows (geometry, money, measurement, etc.), and then look at adding a full curriculum to our mix, or covering the full range of math topics another way, later in the year.

 

And yes, now that I'm starting to understand Ronit Bird's methods (my younger son and I played around with it today), I do wish I'd used her materials to "afterschool" math last year. 

 

Caroline


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#19 OhElizabeth

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:35 AM

The Intervention Specialists who have looked over my ds' stuff were pleased with my combo of RB + the daily warm-up type worksheets from the online publishers. We're not doing a full curriculum, but the *effect* and the amount of work is like a full curriculum. 

 

That way it's not so overwhelming. Even with disabilities, he's still a kid, kwim? He just needs a *dab* more, not a ton.

 

For saving things, I use Pinterest boards by grade level or disability area and amazon wish lists. You can download a pinterest button to your internet browser, then, as long as there's a picture, it's easy to "pin" the item. So, for instance, I have a pinterest board for dyslexia, for 3rd grade for boys, etc. And if you want to set them to private, you can do that too. :)


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#20 Lecka

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 02:48 PM

I am going to add -- maybe look at Reflex Math for math facts. It is very patient with review and it does have some fun games.
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#21 Ottakee

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 09:43 PM

Lots of great advice above.

We loved CLE math. The laminated page with math facts, terminology, ruler, etc on it is priceless. Their math flashcards are well.worth the cost as they are learned in specific order and practiced etc. We did the time drills daily but did NOT time them. That would have been too much stress. During regular work I let them use thar laminated sheet if they couldn't remember the fact, term, etc.

My son is 29 and still struggles with math, time, and calendar concepts. You are right...FAS and math do not go well together.
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#22 trailrunner

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Posted 10 August 2017 - 10:17 PM

Lots of great advice above.

We loved CLE math. The laminated page with math facts, terminology, ruler, etc on it is priceless. Their math flashcards are well.worth the cost as they are learned in specific order and practiced etc. We did the time drills daily but did NOT time them. That would have been too much stress. During regular work I let them use thar laminated sheet if they couldn't remember the fact, term, etc.

My son is 29 and still struggles with math, time, and calendar concepts. You are right...FAS and math do not go well together.

 

Thanks! I'm glad now that I did go ahead and order, well, everything...  :lol:


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