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I skimmed a post recently about what age to start a research paper, but didn't have time to get a related post here till now. I did research papers starting in middle school by going to the library, checking out 2-3 spine books on the topic, looking at the encyclopedia info on the topic, and adding another resource (like a magazine article) if applicable. With everything at anyone's fingertips via the internet, how is the research paper taught or done now? A teacher told me the kids have a format to quote websites and there is a way to tell if it's legit, but isn't almost EVERYTHING a student needs to collect info on available on Wikipedia, internet video documentaries, and a couple core websites-with all the info already condensed at the student's fingertips??? We currently do written narrations that I hope increase in complexity and quality over the next few years, but I am wondering if the old school way of doing research papers is still a thing. I will likely assign a research paper with lots of handholding for my upcoming 6th grader this year and require a simple, more independent research paper the next school year. I just want to teach it the way most research papers will be expected to be done come high school.

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I still make my kids look up information in an encyclopedia and unfamiliar words in a dictionary. I think internet is good for some things, but I want my kids to be able to do research in actual books and an actual library. They actually love encyclopedias! My husband reads them for fun.

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I think the primary thing is to make sure kids know how to discern the quality of the source. This is true whether you use books or the Internet, but the Internet sure makes it easier for low-quality sources to appear legitimate.

 

Personally, I don't see a big difference between using a legitimate reference source online or print, but if it is online that probably makes it a lot easier for me to check whether or not a student has plagiarized. Same goes for online magazine articles-- and again, as long as we're talking about articles from publications that have been peer-reviewed or fact-checked, it really doesn't matter to me if they come from a student's trip to the library or a Google search.

 

And here with get, philosophically, into the reason for assigning a research paper and expectations surrounding them. Is it a problem that a search engine or the online library resources make it so much easier for most students to do research? That they aren't learning the skills of going to the library, searching different areas of the stacks, familiarizing themselves with the reference section, and so forth? I do think these skills are vital-- my own Internet-based research often gets me jotting down the primary sources and often obscure sources that aren't available online, and making trips to the library to find those books.

 

Which brings me to another philosophical question about research papers. At first, sure, kids write papers just to familiarize themselves with the conventions of writing, and this is a hump I personally hope to bring my children over-- over to the other side, where they are writing about topics that interest them and fascinate them to the point where they aren't asking, "How can I write this encyclopedia entry in my own words?" When you are excited about a topic, don't you just run with it? You don't go to a few websites and nod and say, "All right, they've already figured this all out." You come up with a list of other stuff you want to find, and often it involves a trip to the library. Or interviewing a person. Or visiting a place. Or observing something. There are all kinds of ways to do research, and I think part of writing a good paper and enjoying it is being open and creative about the kind of ways you can make your own paper worthwhile to you, and not just a boring exercise.

 

This is not, of course, what high school English teachers get, or expect, for the most part. They will just expect that he knows how not to plagiarize and how to use multiple sources (online and/or print) and cite them properly. If your library provides online resources, that is a good place to begin. We haven't done anything formal for teaching digital literacy (which would include how to recognize legitimate sources) but I bet others could recommend something like that and it would also be a good place to start.

 

 

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I teach writing professionally.

 

IMHO, research papers are under-taught. Keep your end-goal in mind--the student must be able to write a scholarly paper in college. They need to practice those skills in high school at the very least in order to have a comfortable competency.

 

My college girl has had to write papers in APA and CMS formats at university.

 

When my son started at a brick-and-mortar high school as a freshman, he was expected to be able to choose sources appropriately and cite them correctly in MLA format. Based on that, I would say to teach those skills in junior high.

 

It almost doesn't matter which format you teach--APA, MLA, CMS, etc. No one (including me) memorizes every tiny detail for these formats. Rather, students should be firmly oriented to the idea that there are procedures for presenting information and citing sources. If the student is comfortable using Purdue OWL and other sources for documentation, then the student will be able to switch to whatever format an individual professor requires. For this reason, it is important that the student interact with resources like the Purdue OWL so that he/she learns how to access the information needed for correct documentation/citation/etc. (rather than having the teacher simply tell them what to do).

 

My favorite resources for research paper writing:

 

Purdue Online Writing Lab--This is an unbelievably amazing resource, and it is updated regularly. Rely on this forever and ever, for everything.

https://owl.english.purdue.edu/

 

Chicago Manual of Style--Most mainstream modern American publications rely on CMS guidelines, and some universities are making the switch to do so as well.

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/home.html

 

Schaum's Quick Guide to Writing Great Research Papers--This is a thorough, friendly how-to that walks you through the whole process step by step. If you feel unsure of what to do at any level, this is the resource to rely on.

https://www.amazon.com/Schaums-Quick-Writing-Research-Papers/dp/0071488480

 

 

Wikipedia is not a valid research source because anyone can post/edit to Wikipedia, so it is impossible to verify the authors' credibility. However, in any Wikipedia entry you can scroll to the bottom to see what sources they used and possibly use those sources yourself. ALSO Wikipedia is a nice option to get a general overview of the topic--that overview gives you ideas for how to direct your research.

 

A big issue with high school and junior high research papers is relying on invalid sources or sources that are not considered credible at a scholarly level. Shoot for sources that are actually experts in the topic. So, if the student is writing about dinosaurs, that student should reference books or articles written by paleontologists or others with direct field experience or expertise. There are a TON of articles, books, and videos that are compiled by non-experts simply regurgitating what they have read/researched. Most teenagers rely on those invalid resources because they are so plentiful and easy to find. However, those types of resources are not credible from a scholarly perspective, and they will not be acceptable in a college-level paper.

 

Plagiarism is an important topic to cover. Each of the linked resources offers commentary to help with that.

 

I typically require my students to go 50/50 on electronic vs. other resources. A good research paper will use a variety of types of resources.

 

Paraphrasing is another important research paper skill that is often taught incorrectly. Many say to simply change some of the wording. That is not a good paraphrase, though. A solid paraphrase uses entirely new words; it presents the information in a different order than the original; and it will cite the source. It must include ALL the original information (it is not a summary), but it must not be a mirror of the original structure or words. It must be a new and unique way to communicate the same facts as the original. The only time to keep some of those original words is if it is vocabulary specific to that topic. For example, if a student is writing about the heart, it is acceptable to refer to the aorta without rephrasing because that is the unique name of that specific artery.

 

In junior high, do a really short research essay of just a page or two to get the logistics under your belt. In high school, students use research paper skills for two things. First, they may write summaries for science or history or another subject, and the teacher will ask the student to include citations and/or a bibiography. For my son, often he writes what he wants to and then includes a bibliography. It's not the Official Way, but it's what his teachers want. The second is when a student is tasked with writing one, major research paper using all the Official skills. My son's school does this sophomore year. The high school I went to required this junior year. Some like to let an older student do this so they can really delve hard-core into a topic. Depending on the age/year of the student, the big high school paper should range 8-15 pages.

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How are you defining research paper?  What I assign my kids for research does not at all resemble the "research papers" I wrote back in middle/high school.  My kids' assignments are usually more like research essays where they have to spend a short period of time researching info in various sources and then writing an essay with supporting evidence based on their research.  These are short assignments (2 or 3 to 7 pages types and not a lot of time spent on them (maybe 5 days from being handed the assignment to turning it in.)

 

(FWIW, online databases are an excellent resource.  Databases include journal articles that I had to find via The Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature back in the day)

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I tutor both high school and college writing for tutor.com who has contracts with many high schools, libraries and universities to provide student support. 

 

My experience closely follows Harriet's, however I would say focus on MLA and APA styles. Less the 5% of the writing I see follows the CMS. MLA is used by English teachers and many Liberal Arts subjects, while APA is used for both soft sciences and sciences (and probably accounts for at least 75% of the papers I see). 

 

Purdue OWL is my favorite resource as well. Make sure your student knows how to:

  • Choose reputable sources - Wikipedia has never been allowed by any college professor I've encountered yet, but recognizing propaganda vs information and what a reputable source is, is a real challenge for many students. If you can have them access academic databases at least once before they get to college, it will help!
  • Write an introduction
  • Write a good thesis statement
  • Use quotes and paraphrased ideas to support their ideas and cite them properly both in-text and on a reference page
  • Write a conclusion

I really don't think what citation or formatting style you teach is terribly important. As long as they have learned the concept of citing, they can adapt to the rules f any system. 

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I think the primary thing is to make sure kids know how to discern the quality of the source. This is true whether you use books or the Internet, but the Internet sure makes it easier for low-quality sources to appear legitimate.

 

Personally, I don't see a big difference between using a legitimate reference source online or print, but if it is online that probably makes it a lot easier for me to check whether or not a student has plagiarized. Same goes for online magazine articles-- and again, as long as we're talking about articles from publications that have been peer-reviewed or fact-checked, it really doesn't matter to me if they come from a student's trip to the library or a Google search.

 

And here with get, philosophically, into the reason for assigning a research paper and expectations surrounding them. Is it a problem that a search engine or the online library resources make it so much easier for most students to do research? That they aren't learning the skills of going to the library, searching different areas of the stacks, familiarizing themselves with the reference section, and so forth? I do think these skills are vital-- my own Internet-based research often gets me jotting down the primary sources and often obscure sources that aren't available online, and making trips to the library to find those books.

 

Which brings me to another philosophical question about research papers. At first, sure, kids write papers just to familiarize themselves with the conventions of writing, and this is a hump I personally hope to bring my children over-- over to the other side, where they are writing about topics that interest them and fascinate them to the point where they aren't asking, "How can I write this encyclopedia entry in my own words?" When you are excited about a topic, don't you just run with it? You don't go to a few websites and nod and say, "All right, they've already figured this all out." You come up with a list of other stuff you want to find, and often it involves a trip to the library. Or interviewing a person. Or visiting a place. Or observing something. There are all kinds of ways to do research, and I think part of writing a good paper and enjoying it is being open and creative about the kind of ways you can make your own paper worthwhile to you, and not just a boring exercise.

 

This is not, of course, what high school English teachers get, or expect, for the most part. They will just expect that he knows how not to plagiarize and how to use multiple sources (online and/or print) and cite them properly. If your library provides online resources, that is a good place to begin. We haven't done anything formal for teaching digital literacy (which would include how to recognize legitimate sources) but I bet others could recommend something like that and it would also be a good place to start.

 

This is something I think is significant.  It does make it too easy, because it isn't really teaching how to take in, assess, and analyze the information properly.  And I think it ends up creating a shallow kind of thinking - finding the right kind of resource, and the information you need within that, isn't just a matter of discarding what is not needed, the process itself shapes the thinking around the topic.

 

When google does it for you, the algorithm and what others think about are the ones doing that shaping, invisibly.

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This is something I think is significant.  It does make it too easy, because it isn't really teaching how to take in, assess, and analyze the information properly.  And I think it ends up creating a shallow kind of thinking - finding the right kind of resource, and the information you need within that, isn't just a matter of discarding what is not needed, the process itself shapes the thinking around the topic.

 

When google does it for you, the algorithm and what others think about are the ones doing that shaping, invisibly.

 

The advantage of teaching your kids to use online databases is that it isn't as simple as googling.  You can search for key words, but sifting through the results takes effort b/c journal articles are not wikipedia level reading.  

 

FWIW, I can't imagine kids not having access to online databases.  Are there any public library systems out there that don't have access to databases?

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Thanks everyone. To answer the question a few posts up about what I meant by research paper...I meant something like "pick a famous person, research about the person from multiple sources, write a paper x pages long about your research, and include a bibliography at the end." I plan to cover outlining, paragraphs, plagiarisms, formatting, rough/final draft, etc... along with the assignment. With each year of school past 6th-7th grade, the expectations would be higher and require more in depth topics and research. I made A's on English papers, but not because I was a good writer or challenged myself. I made A's because I was good at following simple instructions. My high school papers weren't that challenging, and my college papers were few (I just have an associate' s degree). The Abeka grammar we were using introduced research papers the old school way in the 4th or 5th grade book that we skimmed and discussed, but I wasn't sure if overall students still are expected to do much research from hard copy books vs. internet sources with so much available through the internet. We are switching to R&S English, which may cover research papers (IDK yet), but I am guessing R&S wouldn't teach much on internet research. Of course, I do agree that doing intense research using a combination of encyclopedias, actual books, journals, reputable web readings, and other sources is better than just googling info from 2-3 websites, papraphrasing the key points, and calling it a research paper. This thread has given me a great jumping off point for expectations regarding my kids' research papers between now and graduation. Thanks again.

Edited by TX native
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I feel terrible ignorant here but can someone please fill me on what internet databases are? I use plain old google and google books and google scholar for my research purposes but I'm thinking that you're talking about something different here. You're making a little excited here because I often find these sources woefully inadequate.

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Well, Wikipedia is not always the best source.  I have found errors on it lots of time.  But it is a good starting place.  By the time they get to high school, if not earlier, I would teach them how to find a more reliable source to back up what they find on Wikipedia (one of the first places you can look is the linked source...I've often found that when people reword the source for Wikipedia, they do it in a way that misinterprets the information).

 

You could also encourage your child to become a Wikipedia editor (don't remember if there's an age requirement for editing Wikipedia).  A good place to start is to find something local that is covered on Wikipedia, and see if there is anything they can add to it to make the article more complete.   A lot of time local things (like local parks or museums and such) will have articles on Wikipedia, but not have a lot of info.  You might be able to add more just by referencing your local newspaper.   I did that on some statues that had been added recently in a park.  The artist that did the statues was on Wikipedia too, so I was able to add info about the statues both to the page about the park and to the artist's page, referencing local newspaper articles about them.  

 

I skimmed a post recently about what age to start a research paper, but didn't have time to get a related post here till now. I did research papers starting in middle school by going to the library, checking out 2-3 spine books on the topic, looking at the encyclopedia info on the topic, and adding another resource (like a magazine article) if applicable. With everything at anyone's fingertips via the internet, how is the research paper taught or done now? A teacher told me the kids have a format to quote websites and there is a way to tell if it's legit, but isn't almost EVERYTHING a student needs to collect info on available on Wikipedia, internet video documentaries, and a couple core websites-with all the info already condensed at the student's fingertips??? We currently do written narrations that I hope increase in complexity and quality over the next few years, but I am wondering if the old school way of doing research papers is still a thing. I will likely assign a research paper with lots of handholding for my upcoming 6th grader this year and require a simple, more independent research paper the next school year. I just want to teach it the way most research papers will be expected to be done come high school.

 

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Thanks everyone. To answer the question a few posts up about what I meant by research paper...I meant something like "pick a famous person, research about the person from multiple sources, write a paper x pages long about your research, and include a bibliography at the end." I plan to cover outlining, paragraphs, plagiarisms, formatting, rough/final draft, etc... along with the assignment. With each year of school past 6th-7th grade, the expectations would be higher and require more in depth topics and research.

My kids start of with simple paragraph type reports in 3rd grade. Initially I will print up one article on whatever the topic might be. (The life cycle of a frog, for example.) After they master taking notes, creating an outline, and writing a paragraph from 1 article, I start printing up 3 in order for them to learn how to synthesize information from multiple sources. By 6th grade, they have been writing those types of reports, about 1 a week, for 3 yrs. In middle school they start to find their own articles, not journal articles, but typically articles found by googling topics with the words "for students" or "for kids" added to their search. That usually brings up sites like National Geographic or .edu sites.

 

I don't expect my kids to cite or use databases until high school. Sometime during middle school, they transition from report style to essay style and start incorporating supporting quotes. At that point, I have them include a bibliography for their quote, but I don't care about correct citing. Initially I want them focusing on learning how to support and don't want them distractedby all the different MLA rules. Once they are comfortable with incorporating supporting evidence, then I teach them how to cite within their papers.

 

I don't worry about teaching more than MLA. When they hit college, teachers will tell them what they want. Knowing how to do it is far more important than which style. When it comes to style, they just need to alter accordingly. (Some software will do it for them.) They can always go by their university's writing center or their professor's office if they have questions.

 

I feel terrible ignorant here but can someone please fill me on what internet databases are? I use plain old google and google books and google scholar for my research purposes but I'm thinking that you're talking about something different here. You're making a little excited here because I often find these sources woefully inadequate.

I can't link our library's database bc you have to be logged in via your library card, but if you go to your library's website, you should see a link for resources or online library or something like that. When you are logged into your account, you should be able to find links to all sorts of databases. Our library has databases of newspapers, magazines, journals, government support/educational materials (when I was just looking for you, they have an entire section on how to start your own small business, for example, that is linked to the state laws and regulations), etc. HTH Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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I clearly remember college professors putting limits on what online resources we could/could not use. For example, the teachers often limited online references to 2 or 3 per assignment, with the other references coming from books, papers, etc. Some teachers even required that online references end in ".org" and one other (I can't remember at the moment). However, that was several (cough...ahem) years ago.

 

FWIW, my kids are young. We are no where near the research paper stage. However, I do make my 2nd grader look up vocabulary words in an actual dictionary...as opposed to saying "Ok Google, what does amiable mean?" I think it is important to have kids "dig" for information.

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The advantage of teaching your kids to use online databases is that it isn't as simple as googling.  You can search for key words, but sifting through the results takes effort b/c journal articles are not wikipedia level reading.  

 

FWIW, I can't imagine kids not having access to online databases.  Are there any public library systems out there that don't have access to databases?

 

I don't imagine there are many libraries with no databases - journals magazines and newspapers haven't published paper indexes for 20 years, if not longer.  Students will have to learn to use them.

 

I have two thoughts here.

 

The first is that even at the university level, I don't think the use of online databases to find articles is all to the good. Yes, it is more straightforward than the older method of using indexes.  But the index method, IMO, had the effect of giving the younger writer a broader insight into the literature.  Yes, it takes effort, but you still have a much more targeted and narrow set of results.  In fact, being higher level reading makes that especially the case, not less so.

 

But with students in high school and jr high, the kids are often not working at that level anyway.  

 

In terms of giving a wider experience to students - I'm not sure.  When I used to teach kids in the army about collation, I often did so at first by having them do it by hand in a small database.  It made them much more capable of using and interpreting the results of a computer database.  I might attempt something similar with research.  I might take advantage of the fact that books are still usually ordered according to catalogue place rather than by a keyword search.  Which is to say, I'd base at least some of the projects on books more than journals, and really emphasize alternate ways to find relevant ones.

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I feel terrible ignorant here but can someone please fill me on what internet databases are? I use plain old google and google books and google scholar for my research purposes but I'm thinking that you're talking about something different here. You're making a little excited here because I often find these sources woefully inadequate.

 

So, it helps I think to know how this used to work.  How would you find particular articles and papers on subjects you wanted, back before there were computer resources?  

 

In the case of newspapers and popular magazines, they usually kept some kind of index.  Magazines would send out an index copy once every year or so to subscribers, and you could look up based on author, title, or perhaps some kind of keywords.  Newspapers did similar things.  

 

For academic journal articles, it was a little different, because you wanted to be able to search all the journals in your subject. (Although, individual journals also published their own indexes every year.)  Instead, there were huge indexes published for different areas of study.  Each year a new set of indexes came out for that year, with all the articles contained in the set of journals they covered.  There was a set organized by author, one by title, and keywords.  

 

So, if you wanted to look for articles, say by a particular author, you'd get the indexes for the past several years, check the author's name for each year, and write down the names of the articles.  From there you could find them in your library.

 

Of course as you can imagine, this could be very time consuming and took up a lot of shelf space.  When computers became more ubiquitous, they started publishing the indexes on CD, which meant you could use search functions.  This was less consuming of space and time, but it also tended to mean that you could search for what you wanted in a more precise way, which can be a mixed blessing - you never did achieve quite the same over-view of the body of literature as you did by scanning the indexes.  With the indexes, it was very common, while reading them, to get a sense of what the academic environment was around a topic or author.

 

Now the indexes are typically online - you still usually have to access them with a library card or at the library, because they pay the company who maintains the indexes for their use.  They sometimes link directly to the articles as well, so you do not have to then go looking for the article on the shelf.

 

There are indexes for all kinds of subjects - ones that include popular magazines like Time or Newsweek, ones for newspapers, ones that look at industry publications, ones for academic publications.  Most public libraries focus on the more popular kinds and academic libraries will hold the academic indexes.

 

One thing librarians love to do is teach people how to use these!

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I don't imagine there are many libraries with no databases - journals magazines and newspapers haven't published paper indexes for 20 years, if not longer. Students will have to learn to use them.

 

I have two thoughts here.

 

The first is that even at the university level, I don't think the use of online databases to find articles is all to the good. Yes, it is more straightforward than the older method of using indexes. But the index method, IMO, had the effect of giving the younger writer a broader insight into the literature. Yes, it takes effort, but you still have a much more targeted and narrow set of results. In fact, being higher level reading makes that especially the case, not less so.

 

But with students in high school and jr high, the kids are often not working at that level anyway.

 

In terms of giving a wider experience to students - I'm not sure. When I used to teach kids in the army about collation, I often did so at first by having them do it by hand in a small database. It made them much more capable of using and interpreting the results of a computer database. I might attempt something similar with research. I might take advantage of the fact that books are still usually ordered according to catalogue place rather than by a keyword search. Which is to say, I'd base at least some of the projects on books more than journals, and really emphasize alternate ways to find relevant ones.

I personally don't find classifying sources that simple. Some subjects are so volatile with current research that the information in a published book could be as much as 2 yrs out of date. Obviously students need to know how to find info in print resources, but my kids know how to use the library, the Dewey decimal system, and books way before high school. If a student doesn't, then, yes, that needs to be a skill introduced and mastered.

 

The best option is for students to know when to use what. Sometimes books are the best option. Sometimes journals are the best option (and for my kids, anyway, they only use online versions of journals, not print). Sometimes they need both, etc.

 

My Dd whose 12th grade English credit was a capstone thesis project she designed around Shakespeare definitely used a wide variety of sources: books, journal articles, and even a dissertation.

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I personally don't find classifying sources that simple. Some subjects are so volatile with current research that the information in a published book could be as much as 2 yrs out of date. Obviously students need to know how to find info in print resources, but my kids know how to use the library, the Dewey decimal system, and books way before high school. If a student doesn't, then, yes, that needs to be a skill introduced and mastered.

 

The best option is for students to know when to use what. Sometimes books are the best option. Sometimes journals are the best option (and for my kids, anyway, they only use online versions of journals, not print). Sometimes they need both, etc.

 

My Dd whose 12th grade English credit was a capstone thesis project she designed around Shakespeare definitely used a wide variety of sources: books, journal articles, and even a dissertation.

 

The point of using books wasn't to learn to use a library classification system or even find the most up to date information - it was to gain the experience of finding relevant information without being pointed directly to it by a computer search.  Given that computer searching is the only kind on most libraries, shelf-searching seems to me the only other option - since the books are physically organized in a way that facilitates that kind of process and thinking in the student.  

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The point of using books wasn't to learn to use a library classification system or even find the most up to date information - it was to gain the experience of finding relevant information without being pointed directly to it by a computer search. Given that computer searching is the only kind on most libraries, shelf-searching seems to me the only other option - since the books are physically organized in a way that facilitates that kind of process and thinking in the student.

Again, I don't see that as a high school level skill in our household. My kids know how to do that simply bc that is the way they spend their entire educations, reading whole books on info and being expected to discern key points vs. having it synthesized for them in textbook size nuggets.

 

If kids don't know how to do that, then they need to be able to know to how find appropriate books. But, certainly not all kids are going to reach research level writing without already possessing that skill.

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Again, I don't see that as a high school level skill in our household. My kids know how to do that simply bc that is the way they spend their entire educations, reading whole books on info and being expected to discern key points vs. having it synthesized for them in textbook size nuggets.

 

If kids don't know how to do that, then they need to be able to know to how find appropriate books. But, certainly not all kids are going to reach research level writing without already possessing that skill.

 

Yeah, that isn't at all what I am talking about, but I don't know how to make myself clearer.  I'm not talking about the information in the books or journals.

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Yeah, that isn't at all what I am talking about, but I don't know how to make myself clearer.  I'm not talking about the information in the books or journals.

 

Is the point finding the books that meet their needs?  If so, isn't that simply a matter of knowing how to use a library, locating the selections of books/materials for their topic, and selecting the appropriate materials?  I just don't see what else you could possibly mean.  ???

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Is the point finding the books that meet their needs?  If so, isn't that simply a matter of knowing how to use a library, locating the selections of books/materials for their topic, and selecting the appropriate materials?  I just don't see what else you could possibly mean.  ???

 

No - I suppose you could say it's about metadata - the larger structures or environment around the topic.  Or, it's about approaching the question in unexpected ways.

 

Often, when researching, the act of looking for information will itself shape your sense of the question and answer.  The act of researching may change the answer, and even the question itself, entirely.

 

When you use search terms in a computer, it will give you books or articles that are linked to those terms, either in the title, through the cataloguing scheme, or in the key words assigned by the cataloguer.  In the old days of the card catalogue, you usually were limited to about three of those key words - today you could potentially have a lot more.

 

The thing is, searching according to those narrow targets tends to give you the most obvious resources.  What it won't tend to do is lead you to anything relevant in a less obvious way - and those have a way of being the resources that will make your work much more insightful, allow you to go deeper, and think about things in a new way.  These are the articles and books you stumble upon and think "well, that isn't obviously about X, but something in the title makes me think it could be helpful" or it is by the same author who was useful in something else you read or are using, or something else makes you pick it up.Sometimes it is just that they sit next to each other on the shelf, so they clearly have something in common - but the title or keywords may not make that obvious at all.

 

In the past, when you were searching through these large paper indexes, it was time consuming, but you were reading all kinds of titles and various groupings.  And I think because attached keywords were often quite limited, there was often more attention paid to building up the literature you ere looking at - cross-referencing authors and so on. Following internal references and ideas within resources.   But the human brain was an important element in this, as it can start to intuit relationships that aren't obvious.  

 

With the advent of computer searching, everything becomes so targeted, especially with journal searching.  There seems to be less scope for a lateral approach - perhaps it is that searching now seems so easy, and to yield so many results, there is less emphasis on building up a sense of the subject, or bringing in really different ways of thinking, through other ways of finding sources.  It's even worse in some ways when searching through an algorithm, rather than just through a catalogue, because what has been searched previously or by others tends to influence the results.  It's easy for everyone to end up reading the same things, taking the same perspectives.

Edited by Bluegoat
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No - I suppose you could say it's about metadata - the larger structures or environment around the topic. Or, it's about approaching the question in unexpected ways.

 

Often, when researching, the act of looking for information will itself shape your sense of the question and answer. The act of researching may change the answer, and even the question itself, entirely.

 

When you use search terms in a computer, it will give you books or articles that are linked to those terms, either in the title, through the cataloguing scheme, or in the key words assigned by the cataloguer. In the old days of the card catalogue, you usually were limited to about three of those key words - today you could potentially have a lot more.

 

The thing is, searching according to those narrow targets tends to give you the most obvious resources. What it won't tend to do is lead you to anything relevant in a less obvious way - and those have a way of being the resources that will make your work much more insightful, allow you to go deeper, and think about things in a new way. These are the articles and books you stumble upon and think "well, that isn't obviously about X, but something in the title makes me think it could be helpful" or it is by the same author who was useful in something else you read or are using, or something else makes you pick it up.Sometimes it is just that they sit next to each other on the shelf, so they clearly have something in common - but the title or keywords may not make that obvious at all.

 

In the past, when you were searching through these large paper indexes, it was time consuming, but you were reading all kinds of titles and various groupings. And I think because attached keywords were often quite limited, there was often more attention paid to building up the literature you ere looking at - cross-referencing authors and so on. Following internal references and ideas within resources. But the human brain was an important element in this, as it can start to intuit relationships that aren't obvious.

 

With the advent of computer searching, everything becomes so targeted, especially with journal searching. There seems to be less scope for a lateral approach - perhaps it is that searching now seems so easy, and to yield so many results, there is less emphasis on building up a sense of the subject, or bringing in really different ways of thinking, through other ways of finding sources. It's even worse in some ways when searching through an algorithm, rather than just through a catalogue, because what has been searched previously or by others tends to influence the results. It's easy for everyone to end up reading the same things, taking the same perspectives.

Or you take an alternative approach where you start with certain key words, see what those results yield. As you read, you pull out new key words and research using those words. You follow referenced articles. In reading those articles, you find new key words or other referenced articles that lead to different resources.

 

For example, when my Dd was researching fairytales, she quickly discovered that fairy tales and folk tales both overlap yet are distinct. Her research led her down all sorts of paths she hadn't considered.

 

Fwiw, I don't see the distinction between print and database searching that you do. But I equally don't expect my kids to do a cursory search and be satisfied with the top 5 hits. I expect them to do actual research.....reading, going back and searching for more info to clarify what they have found, fine tuning that search, etc.

 

I have witnessed my kids requesting referenced books, following up on an author in another publication, etc, bc that is where their research leads them,

 

Fwiw, I think the same intellectual laziness of results you depict with online databases happens with print bc of the inconvenience of having to physically go back and do more research and the likelihood of just going with what you have. I suspect it has far more to do with the individual than the method.

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
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Yes, thinking about lateral search terms is an important way to proceed to avoid being narrow.

 

Lazy people will be lazy.  But using manual databases still, I think, gives a kind of exposure to what is available that is easier to miss with computer searching.  Seeing things isn't quite the same as knowing it might be there.  Back when I was in the army, one of my main jobs was to keep the database in my office, but a significant part of that was to see, myself, everything that came and went into the database.  A brain is in some ways less perfect at keeping track of things than a computer, but it can also make connections that a computer doesn't.  (At least not yet.)

 

Anyone who goes on to study a subject seriously gets to know the scope of the literature.  My sense though is that most high school students come to university without a sense that such a thing is important - increasingly they seem to think that the internet will on the one hand give them whatever they need, and perhaps on the other that it is too much to ever gain that kind of insight.  And, on the other side, the level of specialization in higher level studies may mask the importance of connecting different kinds of ideas.

 

 

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I skimmed a post recently about what age to start a research paper, but didn't have time to get a related post here till now. I did research papers starting in middle school by going to the library, checking out 2-3 spine books on the topic, looking at the encyclopedia info on the topic, and adding another resource (like a magazine article) if applicable. With everything at anyone's fingertips via the internet, how is the research paper taught or done now? A teacher told me the kids have a format to quote websites and there is a way to tell if it's legit, but isn't almost EVERYTHING a student needs to collect info on available on Wikipedia, internet video documentaries, and a couple core websites-with all the info already condensed at the student's fingertips??? We currently do written narrations that I hope increase in complexity and quality over the next few years, but I am wondering if the old school way of doing research papers is still a thing. I will likely assign a research paper with lots of handholding for my upcoming 6th grader this year and require a simple, more independent research paper the next school year. I just want to teach it the way most research papers will be expected to be done come high school.

 

My son did 3 research papers last year (4th grade).  They were -not- allowed to use Wikipedia and were encouraged to use different types of sources -- some on the Internet but some from books, magazines, etc. I think they had to have a Bibliography with at least 4 sources and had to turn in their notes so the teacher could see that information was pulled from different sources and actually used in the paper.  They also work a lot more at even having the notes be in your own words -- not copied word for word from the source.

 

The school library has online sources that are kids friendly and that is where my son went for his research. He didn't do a general google search. He searched within the library databases. I felt the information he got there was of generally good quality and for at least one of his topics, it was easier to find relevant information online at a level he could understand.  His school library did not have enough and we spent several hours three different days in the local libraries without finding enough relevant information to fill a paper at his reading level (for technical stuff, 6th-7th grade is what he can handle. He can read words harder, but we found he was not understanding enough). Online, there were kids magazines with updates about the subject, etc. 

Edited by vonfirmath
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I feel terrible ignorant here but can someone please fill me on what internet databases are? I use plain old google and google books and google scholar for my research purposes but I'm thinking that you're talking about something different here. You're making a little excited here because I often find these sources woefully inadequate.

 

Our school librarian directed us to:

 

www.worldbookonline.com

http://search.ebscohost.com/

http://school.nettrekker.com

 

We also use kids search for looking.

 

https://kidssearch.com/

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Isn't almost EVERYTHING a student needs to collect info on available on Wikipedia, internet video documentaries, and a couple core websites-with all the info already condensed at the student's fingertips?

 

 

Sure, and studies have shown that Wikipedia is about as reliable as a traditional encyclopedia... but it's usually written on a college reading level. I wouldn't recommend it for your average child. (And on that note, I was taught that traditional encyclopedias aren't a "source" either unless you literally have no access to anything else. There's no competition between Wikipedia and other encyclopedias because you're not supposed to be citing Britannica either. You use your encyclopedia, as others have said, to get an overview and to find sources.)

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