Jump to content


What's with the ads?

Photo
- - - - -

Logic - When is too late to start?


8 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#1 llifeon18wheels

llifeon18wheels

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 218 posts

Posted 31 July 2017 - 08:10 PM

My daughter is heading into 8th grade and hasn't started any Logic study yet.

 

I am looking at an online option for this because I think she would enjoy it more. My choices are Classical Academic Press Logic which uses the Art of Argument product. The other option is Memoria Press and they use the Traditional Logic product that they make. I know that I can do a DVD version of both of these options but I really want to do an online class for her.

 

Any advice on these two options? Also, is 8th grade too late? I know that I can do whatever I like but I'd like to prepare her for high school and not be slack.

 

Thanks! Michelle



#2 Vida Winter

Vida Winter

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4704 posts

Posted 31 July 2017 - 11:02 PM

Taking logic prior to 8th grade may be too early. You're fine.


  • Lori D., Runningmom80, llifeon18wheels and 1 other like this

#3 Farrar

Farrar

    Expert Cat Herder

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22597 posts

Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:00 AM

Maybe when your memory starts to go in old age?

 

There's not a too late for almost anything, but really for logic, that's extra true. It can be useful for introducing kids to problem solving strategies and persistence when kids are younger, but it's hardly a must. Most school kids never do formal logic at all. Really, any time you do it is fine. Eighth grade is a fine time to start. Or ninth or twelfth.


  • Lori D., Rosie_0801, MerryAtHope and 5 others like this

#4 Lori D.

Lori D.

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11454 posts

Posted 01 August 2017 - 01:00 PM

Agreeing with previous posters.

 

The majority of students (think the wide hill part of the "bell curve" of development) don't *start* to develop the abstract thinking and logic portions of the brain until age 12-14, so it's best to wait until 8th-10th grade to do  *formal* Logic program so you don't end up with a lot of frustration trying to do something that the student's brain just isn't ready for. (That's also why many students (aside from the gifted/advanced students) tend to do better waiting until 8th-9th grade to do Algebra 1.)

 

Informal logic and critical thinking can be done from pre-K onward, and usually with fun things like puzzles and games.

 

In case you're worried how your DD will do in an outsourced formal Logic class, you might consider having fun together going through some of these resources in the next month:

- Perplexors -- logic grid puzzles

- Logic Liftoff, followed by Orbiting With Logic

 

 

As far as which online class to go with -- I can only give you a quick review of the programs each class is using; I'm linking sample pages to the name of each program so you can also skim and decide for yourself which would be a better fit for your DD:

 

- Art of Argument = is more gentle/intro level and can be used with 7th-9th graders as a very first intro to formal Logic

- Traditional Logic = is a high school level program -- definitely more "stout" and rigorous for starting with no previous logic exposure (student workbook level 1; level 2)


Edited by Lori D., 01 August 2017 - 01:01 PM.

  • mamaraby and cintinative like this

#5 luuknam

luuknam

    Think before you arithmetic

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6411 posts

Posted 01 August 2017 - 02:05 PM

Maybe when your memory starts to go in old age?

 

There's not a too late for almost anything, but really for logic, that's extra true. It can be useful for introducing kids to problem solving strategies and persistence when kids are younger, but it's hardly a must. Most school kids never do formal logic at all. Really, any time you do it is fine. Eighth grade is a fine time to start. Or ninth or twelfth.

 

 

This. My first (and only) logic class was in university, something to do with propositional logic and the like (I ended up dropping it... something to do with having been overly optimistic about double majoring in two unrelated STEM fields and getting the flu within the first month). 



#6 llifeon18wheels

llifeon18wheels

    Hive Mind Level 4 Worker: Builder Bee

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 218 posts

Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:00 PM

Agreeing with previous posters.

 

The majority of students (think the wide hill part of the "bell curve" of development) don't *start* to develop the abstract thinking and logic portions of the brain until age 12-14, so it's best to wait until 8th-10th grade to do  *formal* Logic program so you don't end up with a lot of frustration trying to do something that the student's brain just isn't ready for. (That's also why many students (aside from the gifted/advanced students) tend to do better waiting until 8th-9th grade to do Algebra 1.)

 

Informal logic and critical thinking can be done from pre-K onward, and usually with fun things like puzzles and games.

 

In case you're worried how your DD will do in an outsourced formal Logic class, you might consider having fun together going through some of these resources in the next month:

- Perplexors -- logic grid puzzles

- Logic Liftoff, followed by Orbiting With Logic

 

 

As far as which online class to go with -- I can only give you a quick review of the programs each class is using; I'm linking sample pages to the name of each program so you can also skim and decide for yourself which would be a better fit for your DD:

 

- Art of Argument = is more gentle/intro level and can be used with 7th-9th graders as a very first intro to formal Logic

- Traditional Logic = is a high school level program -- definitely more "stout" and rigorous for starting with no previous logic exposure (student workbook level 1; level 2)

 

Thank you for the ideas. I am going to go with the Perplexors books first and then I will re-look at this subject for a 9th grade online class.



#7 Lori D.

Lori D.

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11454 posts

Posted 01 August 2017 - 04:33 PM

Thank you for the ideas. I am going to go with the Perplexors books first and then I will re-look at this subject for a 9th grade online class.

 

Actually, I'm looking at your signature -- is that what DD did this year? Or is it what you have planned for next year (8th grade)?

 

Because if that's what DD did this year, and if she was fine with Omnibus 1, Latin, and Algebra 1, I'm sure she would not likely have any troubles with an online Logic class in 8th grade. :)



#8 cintinative

cintinative

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1656 posts

Posted 26 August 2017 - 07:09 PM

I'm grateful you asked this question. My sixth grader has done Perplexors and Logic Liftoff/Orbiting with Logic and I was going to start an oral discussion of The Fallacy Detective and possibly The Thinking Toolbox this year, with a goal of getting to Art of Argument in 8th grade. I was feeling a bit like we weren't going to be ready for Art of Argument next year and I am glad to hear so many chime in that I don't have to push it before he is ready.



#9 JudoMom

JudoMom

    Disliker of Change

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13700 posts

Posted 26 August 2017 - 07:23 PM

Agreeing with previous posters.

 

The majority of students (think the wide hill part of the "bell curve" of development) don't *start* to develop the abstract thinking and logic portions of the brain until age 12-14, so it's best to wait until 8th-10th grade to do  *formal* Logic program so you don't end up with a lot of frustration trying to do something that the student's brain just isn't ready for. (That's also why many students (aside from the gifted/advanced students) tend to do better waiting until 8th-9th grade to do Algebra 1.)

 

Informal logic and critical thinking can be done from pre-K onward, and usually with fun things like puzzles and games.

 

In case you're worried how your DD will do in an outsourced formal Logic class, you might consider having fun together going through some of these resources in the next month:

- Perplexors -- logic grid puzzles

- Logic Liftoff, followed by Orbiting With Logic

 

 

As far as which online class to go with -- I can only give you a quick review of the programs each class is using; I'm linking sample pages to the name of each program so you can also skim and decide for yourself which would be a better fit for your DD:

 

- Art of Argument = is more gentle/intro level and can be used with 7th-9th graders as a very first intro to formal Logic

- Traditional Logic = is a high school level program -- definitely more "stout" and rigorous for starting with no previous logic exposure (student workbook level 1; level 2)

 

Art of Argument is informal logic, and I've found informal logic to be great for middle school since they're so predisposed to arguing about things :).  


  • ScoutTN likes this